St. Marys Expansion

[Matthew Le God]

St Mary's wont be expanded, we will move to a new ground.. talks have already happened.!!

 

Is this just based on what Cortese said in March or have you heard something new?

[daveygwyatt]

heard something last week. from someone completely uninterested in saints but with contacts .. not at saints, but near to /or involved in the talks. It did tie in with what Cortese said in march , which made me think there is something in it.

[Matthew Le God]

Can you tell us anymore than that? Where it would be? When it may be built? How big it would be?

[daveygwyatt]

I honesty have no idea mate. I was informed that talks were held with a Eastleigh council re a new stadium, and thats about all I know. Reading between the lines i would guess saints are looking for a developement the offers more of an income than just a stadium. In terms of size and timescale who knows.. But i would guess stadium size would be less important than secondary income from any new development.

[Saint_clark]

Is Stoneham still an option?

[ericb]

It's bound to be some ****ty out of town corporate bowl, that's not to say SMS isn't a corporate(ish) bowl but at least it's in the heart of Southampton. I know it's stupid and old fashioned but rather than worrying about the people coming in out of the city why can't we look to keep it in the city, where it belongs, it is Southampton football club at the end of the day.

 

The great thing about SMS is that it's walking distance from so many points of this city, surrounded by pubs; places to eat and close to the city center. The Dell was much the same and i'm sure matchdays would lose something if the ground was moved to somewhere like Eastleigh or West End.

 

Just as an example look at the Rose Bowl, i used to go semi regularly to the old county ground when it was in the middle of the city but these days it's such a pain to get to the Rose Bowl it's unbelievable. Imagine that week in week out for Saints, no more walking to the ground, no more heading up to town for a beer after the game, just soulless numbers trouping through the gates, part of a convoy of buses/cars/trains being shipped in and out on a saturday afternoon to "enjoy" the Premier League tm Experience*.

 

*the Premier League tm Experience involves paying through the nose for a ticket, buying **** from the club MEGASTORE, wearing the club shirt (mandatory) and jester hats/face paint (optional for the big games), sitting in silence and quoting **** boring stats about pass completions and goal to game ratios.

 

 

----------------------------ah that rant felt good!

[Saint_Jonny]

The whole idea that Saints would consider moving to a new ground is totally ridiculous IMO.

 

Think about it....Medium sized football club moves to lovely new stadium, the envy of half the clubs in the land, great facility's for matchdays / corporate stuff, good city centre(ish) location, less than 10 years old. Why on earth would the club risk getting into massive debt (and it would be MASSIVE, SMS was built for an absolute STEEL when you look at stadium construction costs in the last 10 years) and alienating some of the fan base by building a ****ty out of town stadium in a **** location? I mean, look at SMS, can you imagine bulldozers coming and knocking THIS down!?

 

 

You are deluding yourselves if you think the club would go down that route. Even expanding SMS is a pipe dream.

[Matthew Le God]

You are deluding yourselves if you think the club would go down that route. Even expanding SMS is a pipe dream.

 

Nicola Cortese said in March 2010 that they have plans to expand St Mary's and also they would consider relocating if they can't. It is on record, so no delusion required.

 

If the club think the only way to expand is to relocate then they will. Maybe traffic problems in the St Mary's area would mean it wouldn't be feasible to expand St Mary's.

[Saint_Jonny]

Nicola Cortese said in March 2010 that they have plans to expand St Mary's and also they would consider relocating if they can't. It is on record, so no delusion required.

 

If the club think the only way to expand is to relocate then they will. Maybe traffic problems in the St Mary's area would mean it wouldn't be feasible to expand St Mary's.

 

Sorry mate but he said nothing of the sort. The question was put to him in passing and his words were something like "we would need to look into it if it came to it", nothing about "plans to expand", and when the interviewer said "maybe a possibility of moving completely" cortese pretty much laughed it off. Go back and listen to it. I think they only came to talk about it because the question was asked about building a train platform.

 

Saints. Will. Not. Move.

[Matthew Le God]

I think you need to listen to it again! Not me.

 

The actual words...

 

"We have also plans regarding the stadium capacity but its much too early to talk about. The traffic problems that the stadium creates after a match like Portsmouth or Leeds, the stadium is not in the right location. Unless the area around the stadium is developed as well. If the council make us comfortable that development in the area will help sort out the traffic issues, I wouldn't see a reason if we had any plans to increase the capacity. But I wouldn't exclude the possibility that we are going to build a complete new stadium."

 

Nicole Cortese, 13th March 2010

Edited 8 November, 2010 by Matthew Le God

[Eastcowzer]

St Mary's wont be expanded, we will move to a new ground.. talks have already happened.!!

 

SMS has the built-in capability to be expanded to 52000 though that is not very likely to happen. Rgarding the pictures of a hypothetical design with both the Itchen and Kingsland satands expanded upwards, why not go the whole hog and put a sliding roof over the pitch. I believe the PL and FL do not encourage indoor #footie' but that is easily overcome by opening up prior to kick-off.

[Tamesaint]

Really is pathetic to bring it back to petty insults about me researching FM.

 

Saints between 2001 and 2005 averaged over 30k in a 32k stadium every year, including the relegation season! No need to wait until back in the Premier League, the club will know that the first season in the Premier League will see a return to over 20k season ticket holders/3k away fans/increased corporate interest etc etc. It will become difficult to get a ticket again if you aren't a season ticket holder.

 

A larger stadium also allows the club to be more flexible with ticket pricing and thus easier to build the supporter base even further. Until 2009 the club had never had real investment in the team if further player investment occurs the club will build the numbers of match going fans. If the Liebherr/Cortese really is to establish the side in the Premier League then a bigger stadium is needed. Cortese has already said as much in the March interview on the BBC.

 

Spot on.

[John B]

There do seem to be a lot of delusional posters on this Forum

 

Where is all the money going to come from to build a Premier League Team let alone a new Stadium

[MarkSFC]

There do seem to be a lot of delusional posters on this Forum

 

Where is all the money going to come from to build a Premier League Team let alone a new Stadium

 

Delusion is your perception of their opinion. In saying that it could be said that you ate delusional.

 

Put yourself in the owners shoes for a minute. Your are incredibly wealthy with for arguments sake £3 billion. Interest alone is upwards of 150million a year.

 

Now you have a football club that has a "nice" fairly new stadium that is restricted to 32,000. You look back to when it was in the Prem before and see that it virtually sold out every game for 5 years DESPITE the fact that in relative terms hardly any money was invested in the team.

 

As a business person you want to maximise your potential profits. Are you set up to do that now? No. You are limited to 32000 regular customers plus a bit of hospitality.

 

The cost of expanding St Marys to 50000 at say £2000 per seat (£1000 has been muted before) then that will cost £36 million. Even assuming an average crowd of 40000 and an average ticket price of just £25 that equates to £1 million just from tickets each game. Over a season ticket sales would be upwards of £19 million in the prem. In just TWO seasons the expansion cost is covered.

 

Over that time there would also be income fro TV/Sky around £50-60 million a season not forgetting sponsorship and retail sales and hospitality. You then factor in that over two years the interest the owner gets may well equate to £300,000,000.

 

If I was in the owners shoes I would look at building from scratch, future proofing the stadium and the club. Even spending £250,000,000 which is onviuosly huge would not put a debt on the club as the figures add up.

 

So in their shies what would you look to do

[Joensuu]

There do seem to be a lot of delusional posters on this Forum

 

Where is all the money going to come from to build a Premier League Team let alone a new Stadium

 

If, there is going to be a new stadium, why would you need to ask where the money would be coming from?

 

The Liebherrs are known to being averse to debt, and have plenty of spare cash to finance a stadium outright. So I think we can safely rule out a loan, either from a bank or financed by the family themselves. So if redevelopment were to happen, it would be financed entirely by the Liebherr family (not as a loan).

 

It's worth pointing out, that the cost of the stadium would simply be added to the 'value' of the asset - meaning, on the balance sheets, the Leibherr family won't have lost a penny by rebuilding or redeveloping.

[daveygwyatt]

I think some on here are missing the point, saints wouldn't just move to a like for like stadium, it would be a move to a complex that Included a ground but offered vast other revenue streams maybe shops, hotels etc.. The out side revenue streams would more than compensate any out lay over time, whilst the new stadium would increase the clubs value. AS I stated ealier in the post talks did take place. This was before Markus passed away( so maybe it's changed now) but our owners are clever business people and if they see a value in relocating our home ground then they will.. and I for one trust their judgement.

[Saint_Jonny]

There do seem to be a lot of delusional posters on this Forum

 

Where is all the money going to come from to build a Premier League Team let alone a new Stadium

 

Im with you. We dont even know if the Leibherrs give a flying **** about us now Markus has sadly left us. We have hardly heard a peep!

[Third Division South Days]

Wonder why holding concerts at St Marys no longer seems to be on the agenda.I know they were stopped when the future of the club was uncertain but would think the revenue generated would be grabbed?

[Gemmel]

I think some on here are missing the point, saints wouldn't just move to a like for like stadium, it would be a move to a complex that Included a ground but offered vast other revenue streams maybe shops, hotels etc.. The out side revenue streams would more than compensate any out lay over time, whilst the new stadium would increase the clubs value. AS I stated ealier in the post talks did take place. This was before Markus passed away( so maybe it's changed now) but our owners are clever business people and if they see a value in relocating our home ground then they will.. and I for one trust their judgement.

 

There would need to be very significant other revenue streams .......like double bubble, so all we'd need is another local team and a stadium located between the two clubs. Anyone know another local team that could do with a new stadium, that would give us "double bubble".

It doesn't bare thinking about, unless you are looking at it from a commercial perspective

[buctootim]

I think some on here are missing the point, saints wouldn't just move to a like for like stadium, it would be a move to a complex that Included a ground but offered vast other revenue streams maybe shops, hotels etc.. The out side revenue streams would more than compensate any out lay over time, whilst the new stadium would increase the clubs value. AS I stated ealier in the post talks did take place. This was before Markus passed away( so maybe it's changed now) but our owners are clever business people and if they see a value in relocating our home ground then they will.. and I for one trust their judgement.

 

Its not clever really. Its just predicated on trying to bounce the council into giving you planning permission to turn cheap farmland into expensive development land so that the developer pockets big wads of cash. Meanwhile atternding footie becomes ever more like visiting Carpet Right or PC World on a saturday afternoon.

[once_bitterne]

Nicola Cortese said in March 2010 that they have plans to expand St Mary's and also they would consider relocating if they can't. It is on record, so no delusion required.

 

If the club think the only way to expand is to relocate then they will. Maybe traffic problems in the St Mary's area would mean it wouldn't be feasible to expand St Mary's.

 

 

That would be before our benefactor died. I really can't see us still being owned by the Liebherr's in 5 years time so talk of a new stadium is laughable. Spending on the first team has all but dried up so to think we could afford c. £100m on a new stadium and entertainment complex is laughable.

 

In any case the size of SMS is perfect for the size of our fanbase. Even when we were doing well in the Prem it was possible for non-st holders to buy a ticket for all games bar the Big 4 and Pompey. TBH, I would rather have a 35k stadium that there is excess demand for 5% of the time than a 50k stadium that has thousands of empty seats 95% of the time.

[buctootim]

The size of SMS is perfect for the size of our fanbase. Even when we were doing well in the Prem it was possible for non-st holders to buy a ticket for all games bar the Big 4 and Pompey. TBH, I would rather have a 35k stadium that there is excess demand for 5% of the time than a 50k stadium that has thousands of empty seats 95% of the time.

 

Quite. In any case it costs something of the order of £2,000 construction costs per seat. Thats an awful lot of money if you can only fill it five times a year.

[Gemmel]

Quite. In any case it costs something of the order of £2,000 construction costs per seat. Thats an awful lot of money if you can only fill it five times a year.

 

Or double up and groundshare......

[Thedelldays]

why are people worried if we fill it..

 

I bet if we had a 40k stadium in the prem we would bring in far more money over a season than with the surrent size..

 

our average attendance would go up quite a bit over a year...hence more money

[buctootim]

Or double up and groundshare......

 

I dont think that works even on a purely commercial basis. The most valuable fan is one who feels such loyalty to their club they turn up week in week out regardless of weather, results, opposition or whats on tv. Ground sharing with another club in an impersonal out of town location just erodes that loyalty and means you could proabably improve attendances for Man U on saturday, but kiss goodbye to any meaningful support for run of the mill games. Overall, in the long run, it would be a bad commercial decsion imo.

[once_bitterne]

why are people worried if we fill it..

 

I bet if we had a 40k stadium in the prem we would bring in far more money over a season than with the surrent size..

 

our average attendance would go up quite a bit over a year...hence more money

 

'Cos it is far better watching a game in a full stadium than a half empty one. I take it you have never watched a Prem game at the DW Stadium.

 

40k is a stupid number anyway, no way that we would move/expand SMS just to add 5k seats it would have to be at least 40k and prob 50k just to make the exerise worthwhile.

[The Kraken]

Quite. In any case it costs something of the order of £2,000 construction costs per seat. Thats an awful lot of money if you can only fill it five times a year.

 

I actually thought it was more like £3K per additional seat, so even less value for money. I think we can add 4,000 seats above each of the Chapel and Northam stands, and 8,000 above the Kingsland, so we could potentially have a 48,000 seater stadium. That is way, way too big as far as I can make out.

 

No doubt against the likes of Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham and Man City we'd likely get towards 40K without too much problem. I can remember, even as a member, how difficult it was to get tickets to these games. The amount of away tiickets on offer could also potentially increase (though I don't think you have to give any more than 3,200 by premier League rules) so perhaps, if we were doing ok, we might nudge on up towards the capacity once in a while.

 

That said, games against the likes of Blackpool, Wolves, Blackburn, Fulham, Birmingham, Wigan etc etc are just never going to get too much beyind the 30K we used to average before, so we'd have a stadium that was near on half empty for most of our games.

[Joensuu]

That would be before our benefactor died. I really can't see us still being owned by the Liebherr's in 5 years time so talk of a new stadium is laughable. Spending on the first team has all but dried up so to think we could afford c. £100m on a new stadium and entertainment complex is laughable.

 

Where is your evidence that spending has dried up? We outspent every team in our division in the last window. We then sacked a manager, which is never a cheap path to take.

 

Also, what leads you to assume that we won't be owned by the Leibherr's in 5 years time? For them, it's a small amount of cash invested (and growing) in a side project. This side project might even be more significant, if they relate the club to the memory their father. The family might be inclinded to sell, but they certainly won't be in a rush to do so. Only a generous offer (£40m +) would see them part with the club IMO, as anything less just wouldn't make financial sense. So unless someone comes along offering silly money, I can't see the Liebherr's moving on in a hurry.

[Gemmel]

As unpalatable as it sounds, I don't think you could question the commercial viability of it.

You would essentially double your revenue.

We might lose some fans as might they, but in the grand scheme of things the number lost would be irrelevant.

 

I don't actually think we will move or increase capacity at St Mary's, but if it was ever looked at seriously, then any sane business man would have to at least explore the option of sharing with the fishy few. Especially if the location was Eastleigh, Hedge End, Fareham etc.

[Vershinin]

Moving to an out of town stadium would be ****ing terrible IMO. We could spend half the money redoing and expanding St Marys and fund our first team to the premiership. God forbid we ever end up with grounds like reading or brightons which seems in the middle of nowhere when i saw it

[Faz]

As unpalatable as it sounds, I don't think you could question the commercial viability of it.

You would essentially double your revenue.

We might lose some fans as might they, but in the grand scheme of things the number lost would be irrelevant.

 

I don't actually think we will move or increase capacity at St Mary's, but if it was ever looked at seriously, then any sane business man would have to at least explore the option of sharing with the fishy few. Especially if the location was Eastleigh, Hedge End, Fareham etc.

 

You're right, commercially it makes complete sense. Just as it would in Manchster, North London, Sheffield, Liverpool, Birmingham etc etc. Whether it will ever happen is another matter.

[Vershinin]

I meant brightons new ground, and Gemmel sorry m8 but how can u justify losing fans just so we can get more money from commercial interests, i'd rather stand with die hard fans than sit in a corperate haven

[Thedelldays]

'Cos it is far better watching a game in a full stadium than a half empty one. I take it you have never watched a Prem game at the DW Stadium.

 

40k is a stupid number anyway, no way that we would move/expand SMS just to add 5k seats it would have to be at least 40k and prob 50k just to make the exerise worthwhile.

 

so..depsite selling out (or near enough) nearly every week when we were in the prem..you think a 40k stadium would be "half full"...which it generally is in division 3 right now..

 

I think we would average 35k+ if we have a 40k stadium...that right there would bring in more money alone

[Gemmel]

I meant brightons new ground, and Gemmel sorry m8 but how can u justify losing fans just so we can get more money from commercial interests, i'd rather stand with die hard fans than sit in a corperate haven

 

 

Whoaaaaa, slow down fella, I wasnt supporting the idea, just looking at it from a different perspective.

 

The reality is the only argument against ground sharing (If we were to build an out of town stadium) is an emotional one and money commercial success, don't go hand in hand with "emotions"

[once_bitterne]

Where is your evidence that spending has dried up? We outspent every team in our division in the last window. We then sacked a manager, which is never a cheap path to take.

 

Also, what leads you to assume that we won't be owned by the Leibherr's in 5 years time? For them, it's a small amount of cash invested (and growing) in a side project. This side project might even be more significant, if they relate the club to the memory their father. The family might be inclinded to sell, but they certainly won't be in a rush to do so. Only a generous offer (£40m +) would see them part with the club IMO, as anything less just wouldn't make financial sense. So unless someone comes along offering silly money, I can't see the Liebherr's moving on in a hurry.

 

We did not outspend every L1 club in the last window. We brought in 3 out of contract players (all fullbacks), one resulted in a tribunal fee but other clubs in L1 spent a lot more than that.

[The Kraken]

We did not outspend every L1 club in the last window. We brought in 3 out of contract players (all fullbacks), one resulted in a tribunal fee but other clubs in L1 spent a lot more than that.

 

Richardson was not out of contract; we paid a fee "believed to be in the region of £450,000".

Dickson went to tribunal.

[BLINK]

St Mary is so bland, Brighton on the other hand are building a far nicer stadium.

[paulwantsapint]

There were some who questioned if saints would sell more than 20k when we went to SMS

 

IMHO nc is after council selling some land around SMS cheap to let saints develope

 

If we were to build a 2nd tier I would sell season tickets only in lower tier to start with then when that gets sold out start selling upper tier

[buctootim]

so..depsite selling out (or near enough) nearly every week when we were in the prem..you think a 40k stadium would be "half full"...which it generally is in division 3 right now..

 

I think we would average 35k+ if we have a 40k stadium...that right there would bring in more money alone

 

Theres a big difference between expanding SMS to 40,000 - which might make sense if we had a competitive Prem team, and spending £100m+ to build a new out of town stadium after pulling SMS down.

Edited 8 November, 2010 by buctootim

[Saint_clark]

That would be before our benefactor died. I really can't see us still being owned by the Liebherr's in 5 years time so talk of a new stadium is laughable. Spending on the first team has all but dried up so to think we could afford c. £100m on a new stadium and entertainment complex is laughable.

 

What, you mean since the transfer window shut?

[buctootim]

St Mary is so bland, Brighton on the other hand are building a far nicer stadium.

 

 

How so? Seems to me to be standard modern stadium in a one pub village on the edge of town. Brighton wouldnt have gone for it if they had other options imo.

[Saint_clark]

St Mary is so bland, Brighton on the other hand are building a far nicer stadium.

 

Which is costing nearly triple what St Marys did.

FWIW, I think Brightons ground is lovely (apart from the empty corners) but St Marys gets slated just for the sake of it. I love our stadium.

[Thedelldays]

St Mary is so bland, Brighton on the other hand are building a far nicer stadium.

 

bland..?

it costs very little in respect, UEFA 4 star stadium....great location in the heart of the city and a stones throw (litterally) from where this club started from 125 years ago....

[Joensuu]

We did not outspend every L1 club in the last window. We brought in 3 out of contract players (all fullbacks), one resulted in a tribunal fee but other clubs in L1 spent a lot more than that.

 

Richardson wasn't out of contract, he was signed for an 'undisclosed fee' - rumoured to be almost half a million. Then add to that the tribunal fee for Dickson...

 

So which club in Division 1 outspent us then?

[John B]

Richardson wasn't out of contract, he was signed for an 'undisclosed fee' - rumoured to be almost half a million. Then add to that the tribunal fee for Dickson...

 

So which club in Division 1 outspent us then?

 

As our club has a large revenue income we can spend more than otherb teams in League 1 but the point being made earlier I think was suggesting that not much money was coming from the Liebherrs to strengthen the team which does seem to be the case

[aintforever]

As our club has a large revenue income we can spend more than otherb teams in League 1 but the point being made earlier I think was suggesting that not much money was coming from the Liebherrs to strengthen the team which does seem to be the case

 

Man City havn't spent much since the transfer window shut either.

[Ken Tone]

St Mary is so bland, Brighton on the other hand are building a far nicer stadium.

 

Brighton's new stadium looks pretty, but really only because (like Bolton's and Huddersfield's) it has small corners under the curving rooves. Since that helps reduce its capacity to a fairly pathetic 22,500. That fancy roof design presumably also means it can't be expanded later. 22,500 shows they have no hope/ambition ever to be a top division club again IMO .... they're settling for championship at best.

 

Personally, I'd rather have what you call bland.

[Joensuu]

As our club has a large revenue income we can spend more than otherb teams in League 1 but the point being made earlier I think was suggesting that not much money was coming from the Liebherrs to strengthen the team which does seem to be the case

 

So, thanks to the Liebherr's we have been able to outspend every other club in division in all of the last three transfer windows, but yet some of our supporters think our owners aren't helping us out enough... To me that sounds like a spoilt fat kid throwing a tantrum because he's only allowed 1 more bag of sweets.

 

There is a very big difference between throwing silly money at a club and sensibly financing a club. Do we honestly need much more money thrown at the first team? Sure if the right player becomes avaliable at the right price, but do we really want to be paying over the odds to attract quality to division 1?

[Vershinin]

Whoaaaaa, slow down fella, I wasnt supporting the idea, just looking at it from a different perspective.

 

The reality is the only argument against ground sharing (If we were to build an out of town stadium) is an emotional one and money commercial success, don't go hand in hand with "emotions"

 

I know m8 sorry wasnt having a go. I know you were just mentioning the benefits, i just dont a move like that.

 

In regards to Brightons new ground, dont know much about the design but the location is in the middle of nowhere, near lewes if i remeber correctly.

[docker-p]

Building a whole new stadium would be financial suicide, and no bank is going to lend us the money under the present economic climate, nor with our record of repaying banks the mortgage on new stadiums. Unless all the finance came from the ML family it will never happen.

And lets face it, NC can't get the training ground finished on time without a some balls up that has suspended work, how is he going to manage with a 40k new stadium.

 

Personally I'm more than happy at SMS, not least because it's in town, with all the various transport and pre/post match entertainment options available.