Alcohol more harmful than heroin?

[Saint Billy]

Some people eat themselves to death, what are you gonna do, ban food?

[MongoNeil]

I'm pretty sure the liver and kidney damage from heroin is greater over a shorter period of time than ethanol abuse. But your point is perfectly valid, "please dispense something that will get me out of my mind and lose control of my senses". That's pretty much what we say when we go to the bar! Gimme that sheeeeet, coz I wanna get fcked!

 

All drugs are the same.

 

You're wrong, heroin in its purest form is less harmful than sugar. The key is getting it in this form. Remember, loads of people take legal morphiates everyday in the form of pain killers.

[JustMike]

legalise all drugs? are you all completey mad (or on drugs?) You will still have the same problems as now, you will still get those that will stop at nothing to get their fix. These people will still need to get the money to buy it from whoever. You will still have the 'underground' element in a bid to dodge the tax, in fact it will probably get worse! Take a trip to any port customs and look at how many illegal fags and booze attempts to comes through. The reason these drugs are illegal is because of what it does to you, and others (see earlier post about where this stuff comes from).

[JustMike]

for the daily mail, this is a good read. Some valid points in there..

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1325788/Why-doesnt-Prof-David-Nutt-come-clean-admit-wants-legalise-drugs.html

[Joensuu]

for the daily mail, this is a good read. Some valid points in there..

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1325788/Why-doesnt-Prof-David-Nutt-come-clean-admit-wants-legalise-drugs.html

 

Except they don't confront the main issue (scientific evidence), but instead dispute the findings with little evidence other than heresay and personal experience. Oh, and they also try to smear the Professor (e.g. "Some commentators have called Professor Nutt the ‘Nutty Professor’. It is too ­facile a tag.").

 

So basically, in addition to being an awful, biased, read, there are few good points in there...

[Joensuu]

legalise all drugs? are you all completey mad (or on drugs?) You will still have the same problems as now, you will still get those that will stop at nothing to get their fix. These people will still need to get the money to buy it from whoever. You will still have the 'underground' element in a bid to dodge the tax, in fact it will probably get worse! Take a trip to any port customs and look at how many illegal fags and booze attempts to comes through. The reason these drugs are illegal is because of what it does to you, and others (see earlier post about where this stuff comes from).

 

See my first post in this thread. IMO banning drugs causes far more social cost and social problems both here and abroad then legalising it would. Yes people would still need to get the money to buy it, but if there isn't a significant change in the number of users, there wouldn't be a siginficant change in the number of crimes - except the profits of the trade wouldn't line to pockets of criminals. What an individual does to themselves is their own right/responsibility. And yes, smuggling wouldn't be halted altogher, but 90%+ of the tobacco and alcohol in this country is legal, why would drugs be any different?

[badgerx16]

Could one of the 'pro' lobby answer one simple question : If the UK were to legalise heroin & cocaine, possibly controlled via the NHS, where would it be sourced from ? Would we force Afghanistan to legalise heroin production, would we try to force Columbia to do the same with cocaine ? Or do we simply buy it on the current 'market' ?

[angelman]

Badger - that is a peach of a question.

 

I imagine that certain countries would have to have government or government approved farms that would grow this. Bit like my father who once grew dope (the stuff without the THC) who had to go through a long process to get a licence.

[angelman]

PS - do you think that Coca-Cola could then make their original recipe again?

[Joensuu]

Could one of the 'pro' lobby answer one simple question : If the UK were to legalise heroin & cocaine, possibly controlled via the NHS, where would it be sourced from ? Would we force Afghanistan to legalise heroin production, would we try to force Columbia to do the same with cocaine ? Or do we simply buy it on the current 'market' ?

 

Most people in Afghanistan would love heroin to be legalised. It would provide them with a real economy, which is the only way any country can exit from a cycle of violence. You wouldn't need to force anyone to legalised heroin production, they have only currently banned it's production because they receive large cash sums from the West to do so. If the West were to buy their heroin rather than bribe them not to grow it we'd both save money.

 

So, by legalising drugs here, you are actually stimulating the economies of many third world countries. This improved economic stability is the best way to combat extremism. It really is a win-win scenario

 

And, no, absolutely no purchasing via the current 'market'.

[badgerx16]

Most people in Afghanistan would love heroin to be legalised. It would provide them with a real economy, which is the only way any country can exit from a cycle of violence. You wouldn't need to force anyone to legalised heroin production, they have only currently banned it's production because they receive large cash sums from the West to do so. If the West were to buy their heroin rather than bribe them not to grow it we'd both save money.

 

So, by legalising drugs here, you are actually stimulating the economies of many third world countries. This improved economic stability is the best way to combat extremism. It really is a win-win scenario

 

And, no, absolutely no purchasing via the current 'market'.

 

But is this not predicated upon ALL countries legalising such drugs ? The point is that the UK could not do this unilaterally, the largest markets by far are the USA & Russia, and unless they go through the same process, the production could never become legal in an international sense.

[Joensuu]

But is this not predicated upon ALL countries legalising such drugs ? The point is that the UK could not do this unilaterally, the largest markets by far are the USA & Russia, and unless they go through the same process, the production could never become legal in an international sense.

 

Absolutely. I doubt very much that we could improve the situation worldwide without other countries joining in, but even alone we could still create a basic legal market. The biggest problem will be US resistance. As the current rise of the TEA party nutters shows, the US has a long, long way to go before it could consider such a radical, but ultimately rational, move. As I said in my first post on this thread, the USA is the biggest thorn in the side of sensible drug legislation.

[Sheaf Saint]

Absolutely. I doubt very much that we could improve the situation worldwide without other countries joining in, but even alone we could still create a basic legal market. The biggest problem will be US resistance. As the current rise of the TEA party nutters shows, the US has a long, long way to go before it could consider such a radical, but ultimately rational, move. As I said in my first post on this thread, the USA is the biggest thorn in the side of sensible drug legislation.

 

This is sadly very true. I doubt that the ultra-conservative Christian communities of the deep south could ever even contemplate such a move. If people think that the right-wing reactionaries in Britain are bad, then just take a look at some of the craziness that goes on in the States!

[norwaysaint]

Just want to point out my original post starting this thread and this one don't contain any opinion either way, as some have somehow decided my opinion for me. I only get three posts so I'll just answer all the ones that seemed contradictory or had an unclear point here.

 

Where does the supply come from ? Who determines demand, and therefore the value of the market and volume of production ? Would the NHS be concurrently trying to 'cure' the users ? Where do new 'customers' come from ? ( Would you walk into an NHS drop-in centre and announce 'I want to become a heroin addict' ? )

 

How is this any different from alcohol or tobacco use? People stroll into a newsagents or a bar for their first nicotine fix all of the time.

 

What complete and utter tosh. Alcohol wasn't invented by man (although distilling spirits was). Alcohol is a natural by product of fermentation. For example, you leave a bit of fruit hanging about with a bit of warmth and the chances are that it will turn alcoholic. Check out this link which demonstrates fermenting pumpkins and their affects. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0so5er4X3dc

 

Yes, but if alcohol was marketed for the first time now, as I said, it would be banned. It's not my opinion that it should be, it's simply that as a toxic and addictive substance with strong effects on how people behave, it would be. Can you imagine the Daily Mail headlines involving this new drug that causes people to lose all inhibitions, posibly with date rape drug implications, that causes headaches, nausea and vomiting and often inspires antisocial behaviour? If you describe the actual effects of excessive alcohol use it makes it sound far worse than most illegal drugs. It'd be banned for sure.

 

It's a bit misleading, the effects are only worse because so many more people use it.

Where do you get that from? None of the reports I've read say that they're only judging it on a cumulative effect. It seems more like a case by case study.

 

Interesting that people have portrayed alcohol as the worst because of, amongst other things, the crime. It's a bit like blaming a gun for killing people rather than the person pulling the trigger. While I realise that it loosens people's inhibitions, it doesn't have to. I have been as drunk as many times as the next person, but I have not been involved in a fight nor been arrested. I don't go and cause petty crime either.

 

On the health front, what has happened to personal responsibility? I work in the booze trade and have a lot of it around me. I have a drink most nights (or probably 360 nights a year) but I am not an alcoholic.

I don't understand why you're holding it separate from other drug use in this argument. Isn't most people's complaint about heroin crime related? Many heroin users also never commit any other crime.

 

legalise all drugs? are you all completey mad (or on drugs?) You will still have the same problems as now, you will still get those that will stop at nothing to get their fix. These people will still need to get the money to buy it from whoever. You will still have the 'underground' element in a bid to dodge the tax, in fact it will probably get worse! Take a trip to any port customs and look at how many illegal fags and booze attempts to comes through. The reason these drugs are illegal is because of what it does to you, and others (see earlier post about where this stuff comes from).

 

The conclusion this leads to is that you are suggesting all drugs should be banned including alcohol and tobacco. I can't see the distinction here that makes alcohol more acceptable than heroin here. When the law prevents the buying of alcohol, people turn to crime to get hold of it, just like with other drugs.

[badgerx16]

How is this any different from alcohol or tobacco use? People stroll into a newsagents or a bar for their first nicotine fix all of the time.

 

The point of my question is that alcohol & tobacco are globally accepted as legitimate products, and come via commercial routes. As expanded in my subsequent posts, from where would the legal ( within the UK ) supply of these drugs be sourced, as there is no internationally accepted legitimate commercial source.

[norwaysaint]

Where does the supply come from ? Who determines demand, and therefore the value of the market and volume of production ? Would the NHS be concurrently trying to 'cure' the users ? Where do new 'customers' come from ? ( Would you walk into an NHS drop-in centre and announce 'I want to become a heroin addict' ? )

 

What complete and utter tosh. Alcohol wasn't invented by man (although distilling spirits was). Alcohol is a natural by product of fermentation. For example, you leave a bit of fruit hanging about with a bit of warmth and the chances are that it will turn alcoholic. Check out this link which demonstrates fermenting pumpkins and their affects. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0so5er4X3dc

 

It's a bit misleading, the effects are only worse because so many more people use it.

 

It's like saying driving is more dangerous than base-jumping because more people die in car crashes.

 

Interesting that people have portrayed alcohol as the worst because of, amongst other things, the crime. It's a bit like blaming a gun for killing people rather than the person pulling the trigger. While I realise that it loosens people's inhibitions, it doesn't have to. I have been as drunk as many times as the next person, but I have not been involved in a fight nor been arrested. I don't go and cause petty crime either.

 

On the health front, what has happened to personal responsibility? I work in the booze trade and have a lot of it around me. I have a drink most nights (or probably 360 nights a year) but I am not an alcoholic.

 

legalise all drugs? are you all completey mad (or on drugs?) You will still have the same problems as now, you will still get those that will stop at nothing to get their fix. These people will still need to get the money to buy it from whoever. You will still have the 'underground' element in a bid to dodge the tax, in fact it will probably get worse! Take a trip to any port customs and look at how many illegal fags and booze attempts to comes through. The reason these drugs are illegal is because of what it does to you, and others (see earlier post about where this stuff comes from).

 

The point of my question is that alcohol & tobacco are globally accepted as legitimate products, and come via commercial routes. As expanded in my subsequent posts, from where would the legal ( within the UK ) supply of these drugs be sourced, as there is no internationally accepted legitimate commercial source.

 

I really don't see your point. Are you saying there would be any difficulty finding somebody who would be happy to legitimately supply cannabis, cocaine etc? When alcohol was illegal in the US, it was made illegally, when it was legalised, people made it legally. Supply isn't really the issue here.

What we're discussing is, if alcohol and tobacco are equally as harmful as illegal drugs, that makes little sense. So would it make more sense to legalise the illegal drugs, make alcohol and tobacco illegal for the same reasons heroin and cocaine are now illegal, or should we continue to have a random system where the harmful drugs that got in the door first and became socialy acceptable should be the only legal ones despite being equally dangerous.

[badgerx16]

I really don't see your point. Are you saying there would be any difficulty finding somebody who would be happy to legitimately supply cannabis, cocaine etc? When alcohol was illegal in the US, it was made illegally, when it was legalised, people made it legally. Supply isn't really the issue here.

What we're discussing is, if alcohol and tobacco are equally as harmful as illegal drugs, that makes little sense. So would it make more sense to legalise the illegal drugs, make alcohol and tobacco illegal for the same reasons heroin and cocaine are now illegal, or should we continue to have a random system where the harmful drugs that got in the door first and became socialy acceptable should be the only legal ones despite being equally dangerous.

When alcohol was prohibited in the US, it was mostly supplied from perfectly legal external sources - either from Europe or Canada. Where in the world are cocaine & heroin LEGALLY produced ?

[Deppo]

Norwaysaint is really getting the most from his 3 posts a day. I have paid my membership and can post freely, apart from when I'm banned, which I was

Do I get a rebate for the period I was banned?

 

Anyway, back on topic, I think we all know that drugs are bad but so is alcohol. If anyone needs evidenced of this they should take a look at Dune's posting history.

[norwaysaint]

When alcohol was prohibited in the US, it was mostly supplied from perfectly legal external sources - either from Europe or Canada. Where in the world are cocaine & heroin LEGALLY produced ?

 

I really don't care, that's a separate issue. I'm asking whether alcohol and tobacco should have a different legal status to other drugs. Whether anybody is able to supply the demand is another thing entirely. We're discussing the moral issue and the legal issue, not the logistics.

[angelman]

Yes, but if alcohol was marketed for the first time now, as I said, it would be banned. It's not my opinion that it should be, it's simply that as a toxic and addictive substance with strong effects on how people behave, it would be. Can you imagine the Daily Mail headlines involving this new drug that causes people to lose all inhibitions, posibly with date rape drug implications, that causes headaches, nausea and vomiting and often inspires antisocial behaviour? If you describe the actual effects of excessive alcohol use it makes it sound far worse than most illegal drugs. It'd be banned for sure.

 

Excessive water consumption will kill you.

[Eastcowzer]

Norwaysaint is really getting the most from his 3 posts a day. I have paid my membership and can post freely, apart from when I'm banned, which I was

Do I get a rebate for the period I was banned?

 

Anyway, back on topic, I think we all know that drugs are bad but so is alcohol. If anyone needs evidenced of this they should take a look at Dune's posting history.

 

A night on the alcoholics may end with a bad head in the morning which will wear off.

A night on the heroin, or any other drug, for that matter, will almost certainly last lifetime.

I know which I prefer.

[Joensuu]

When alcohol was prohibited in the US, it was mostly supplied from perfectly legal external sources - either from Europe or Canada. Where in the world are cocaine & heroin LEGALLY produced ?

 

Cocaine is legally produced in both Peru and Bolivia. Opium is legally produced (for medicinal use) in Turkey, and India.

[benjii]

A night on the alcoholics may end with a bad head in the morning which will wear off.

A night on the heroin, or any other drug, for that matter, will almost certainly last lifetime.

I know which I prefer.

 

Yeah, you're quite right - the worse thing that ever happened, alcohol related, was a bad head.

[Joensuu]

A night on the alcoholics may end with a bad head in the morning which will wear off.

A night on the heroin, or any other drug, for that matter, will almost certainly last lifetime.

I know which I prefer.

 

Any other drug? How about Amphetamine, Cannabis, Ecstasy, MTA, or LSD? All of which are far less addictive than alcohol (which is itself far less addictive than tobacco).

 

LSD, Cannablis and Ecstasy, have also been shown to do less physical harm than either Alcohol or Tobacco.

[buctootim]

When I was single I spent far more money and got into much more trouble on the nights I was trying to get laid than when I was trying to get ****ed. Mabe sex should be top of the danger list.

[Saint Billy]

Any other drug? How about Amphetamine, Cannabis, Ecstasy, MTA, or LSD? All of which are far less addictive than alcohol (which is itself far less addictive than tobacco).

 

LSD, Cannablis and Ecstasy, have also been shown to do less physical harm than either Alcohol or Tobacco.

 

Ah but can you take drugs in moderation?

[Joensuu]

Ah but can you take drugs in moderation?

 

Are you suggesting the Admins are all users?

 

Otherwise, yes, people are perfectly capable or moderating their use of the less addictive drugs, such as Ecstasy, LSD, Cannabis etc, although some do struggle somewhat with more addictive drugs such as alcohol and tobacco.

[Sheaf Saint]

Ah but can you take drugs in moderation?

 

Absolutely, yes. Why not?

[hypochondriac]

I really don't care, that's a separate issue. I'm asking whether alcohol and tobacco should have a different legal status to other drugs. Whether anybody is able to supply the demand is another thing entirely. We're discussing the moral issue and the legal issue, not the logistics.

People say that alcohol's a drug. It's not a drug, it's a drink!

[scotty]

When alcohol was prohibited in the US, it was mostly supplied from perfectly legal external sources - either from Europe or Canada. Where in the world are cocaine & heroin LEGALLY produced ?

 

morphine is produced legally, and the NHS use loads of that. Heroin is simply a refined and concentrated version of morphine, ergo we should be able to source it in exactly the same way.

 

and I agree with those saying it should be legalised, with the proviso that it should be freely available to registered addicts. I would rather an addict trotted into a clinic for his daily requirement and took it under medical supervision, with the possibility that trained staff might be able to help him stop his usage, than that he goes out and mugs/robs someone for it. The high cost of heroin is almost entirely due to its prohibition, and why some people seem to think that the immutable laws of free market economics in a capitalist society uniquely dont apply to the trade in prohibited drugs is quite beyond me.

[buctootim]

morphine is produced legally, and the NHS use loads of that. Heroin is simply a refined and concentrated version of morphine, ergo we should be able to source it in exactly the same way.

 

NHS use heroin for pain relief as well, especially in terminal cancer. Its known as diamorphine.

[St Chalet]

Thank you to those who reported a particular post on this thread. The post has been deleted and action has been taken according to the forum rules.

[hypochondriac]

Thank you to those who reported a particular post on this thread. The post has been deleted and action has been taken according to the forum rules.

 

You do realise where that post was from, what it was about and why it was posted right? Or is brass eye too strong for this place?

[benjii]

You do realise where that post was from, what it was about and why it was posted right? Or is brass eye too strong for this place?

 

WTF? Have the thought police deleted a reference to Brass Eye?

[hypochondriac]

WTF? Have the thought police deleted a reference to Brass Eye?

 

It was a brass eye quote to poke fun at the people who were suggesting that drugs were not addictive. Admittedly I didn't make it as clear as I should have but then that would have ruined the point of posting it. Anyway I have explained the misunderstanding to the new mods so hopefully things will be sorted.

[benjii]

It was a brass eye quote to poke fun at the people who were suggesting that drugs were not addictive. Admittedly I didn't make it as clear as I should have but then that would have ruined the point of posting it. Anyway I have explained the misunderstanding to the new mods so hopefully things will be sorted.

 

Sounds to me like people might have just decided to report you for getting Deppo banned.

[hypochondriac]

Sounds to me like people might have just decided to report you for getting Deppo banned.

 

Something which I didn't do (a d which Steve confirmed)

[benjii]

Ok, well, in any case Brass Eye is brilliant.

 

[hypochondriac]

As it seems extremely unlikely that I will get my ridiculous infractions lifted due to st 'mod in training' chalet seemingly too proud to reverse an incorrect decision, here is the quote I used (a few seconds in). You can decide for yourself if it is racist.

 

Edited 3 November, 2010 by hypochondriac

[Joensuu]

As it seems extremely unlikely that I will get my ridiculous infractions lifted due to st 'mod in training' chalet seemingly too proud to reverse an incorrect decision, here is the quote I used (a few seconds in). You can decide for yourself if it is racist.

 

The Hattie Jacques bit, or the 'less stable, less educated, less middle class' bit?

 

Either way, a Brass Eye quote should not be infractable.

[hypochondriac]

The Hattie Jacques bit, or the 'less stable, less educated, less middle class' bit?

 

Either way, a Brass Eye quote should not be infractable.

 

The middle class bit. And I got 4 infractions for racism which even though it has been pointed out as a misunderstanding are seemingly going to stand. Unfair really and I would be saying the same whoever it was.

[Robsk II]

Oh well, eh? If it was a flippant remark on a serious topic, surely that's all people like Deppo ever did, and he got complained about by some people and banned! So I'd think yuorself lucky really, LOL!!1

[hypochondriac]

Oh well, eh? If it was a flippant remark on a serious topic, surely that's all people like Deppo ever did, and he got complained about by some people and banned! So I'd think yuorself lucky really, LOL!!1

 

Except that he posted flippant remarks on the main board whereas I have been accused of racism. Anyway I will leave it now. Still a bit irritating.

Edited 3 November, 2010 by hypochondriac

[Robsk II]

Don't worry so much Hypo. It's just a few points. As some have pointed out, it IS only the internet, after all, and only one miniscule part of it. Plus to be honest, flippant remarks on the main board are hardly worth reporting, are they? It's just a bit petty really. But that's the nature of the beast, sometimes you have to take knocks if you're going to give them, you know?

[Baj]

can we get back on topic please?

[angelman]

I agree that alcohol is the most harmful drug, as it is (currently) the only one I take.