Wurzel Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Hypo: But, as my reply asked, how should we respond to those subscribed members who DONT want these changes, and would be quite within their rights to complain Why not try a subscribed members only Poll to gauge the balance of their opinion on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Alternatively say from this date we will be allowing everyone to start threads. You really should listen to your customers. This forum is a lot worse since post count was restricted to non members. I paid because I like to post but I would much rather the whole thing didn't exist. Keith worked five with voluntary donations and that's what I would prefer. No going back bow though. Ho hum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Hypo: But, as my reply asked, how should we respond to those subscribed members who DONT want these changes, and would be quite within their rights to complain Why not have a 2 week trial? I haven't seen anyone who strongly opposes it yet. Allow people to voice their opposition to it but I can't see how anyone cannot see it as anything other than a benefit. Has anyone come to you and disagreed strongly with the idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Why not try a subscribed members only Poll to gauge the balance of their opinion on this. Yeah, but the issue still remains that it wont get 100% approval, so how are we to deal with those that dont agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Look at it this way, if you are responding to what the majority of paid customers want, then it is actually a good thing. If you ignore them then the minority may be happy but the rest will not be. Especially considering a thread was started a few weeks ago asking for views about how to make the forum better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Why not have a 2 week trial? I haven't seen anyone who strongly opposes it yet. Allow people to voice their opposition to it but I can't see how anyone cannot see it as anything other than a benefit. Has anyone come to you and disagreed strongly with the idea? But at the end of the 2 weeks, we are still left in the same situation of what to do with those that disagree, and there will be those that disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 You have made loads of decisions for the good of the forum which haven't been net with universal approval. Why is this any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 But at the end of the 2 weeks, we are still left in the same situation of what to do with those that disagree, and there will be those that disagree As with every decision but if most of your customers want it and can clearly see the benefits from the trial, then it should go ahead. It's a fiver for god sake. I really hope you will consider it as all I have seen on this thread is support for the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Because it has a legal implication on those that have paid for a very specific facility. Dont get me wrong, i WANT to do it, but Im concerned about what position it would leave us in if a number of users strongly opposed us giving away something for free that they have paid for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickn Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 I pay my £5 as well but I really couldn't care if people who don't can start threads as well. Those who have paid and moan about those who haven't starting threads must be incredibly petty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Because it has a legal implication on those that have paid for a very specific facility. Dont get me wrong, i WANT to do it, but Im concerned about what position it would leave us in if a number of users strongly opposed us giving away something for free that they have paid for Then give a trial and if there is indeed a groundswell of opinion against it then they will be heard during that period and if it is unable to legally continue after that then so be it. Might as well try and see rather than just assuming the worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 And if anyone seriously suggested taking legal action against you over a fiver then I would quite happily refund them their money myself if it meant getting an interesting and busy forum again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 And if anyone seriously suggested taking legal action against you over a fiver then I would quite happily refund them their money myself if it meant getting an interesting and busy forum again Cool, so all we need is enough people willing to compensate those who dont want it. I think on those grounds you might get a few takers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franny Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Because it has a legal implication on those that have paid for a very specific facility. Dont get me wrong, i WANT to do it, but Im concerned about what position it would leave us in if a number of users strongly opposed us giving away something for free that they have paid for If it is that they would object to others getting something for "nothing" when they paid - then surely it is no different to say SFC selling tickets very cheap for games when ST holders have paid the full price up front at the start of the season or I pay full price for a holiday later on you buy in a sale drastically reduced or banks offering special rates to new mortgage applicants they do not offer to existing custmers etc....I can't see what legal objectoins they may have as long as they still get what they paid for and others benefit from the "special offer". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Cool, so all we need is enough people willing to compensate those who dont want it. I think on those grounds you might get a few takers! Why with the sarcasm all the time? Have you actually seen someone say they vehemently oppose the idea? This topic has come up a few times over the years and I have never seen anyone say they strongly disagree. You say 'people won't want it' without actually testing to see if you are right. Maybe some will say well I disagree but in not that bothered over a fiver, then what is the problem with that? I think every effort should be made to give people what they want in order to make the forum as successful as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 If it is that they would object to others getting something for "nothing" when they paid - then surely it is no different to say SFC selling tickets very cheap for games when ST holders have paid the full price up front at the start of the season or I pay full price for a holiday later on you buy in a sale drastically reduced or banks offering special rates to new mortgage applicants they do not offer to existing custmers etc....I can't see what legal objectoins they may have as long as they still get what they paid for and others benefit from the "special offer". Sorry franny, but none of your examples give something away for free that was paid for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essruu Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Registered Users can only post three times in 24 hrs. Does it really make any difference if one of those is to start a thread? They're still only going to have two other posts left! There are no disadvantages, only advantages: - 1. RUs starting a thread about a new topic gives everyone something else to talk about (might even enhance the forum experience of FMs by having more threads and discussions.) 2. A RU is more likely to want to get involved in a lively and interesting discussion that they've started and are therefore interested in, but they'll only have two remaining posts - so are more likely to be tempted to pay £5 for FM status to do so. 3. The more lively the discussions become, the more likely some of the older and more interesting posters of old are to return (I don't JUST mean Wurzel when I say 'old'). The more that they start using this place again the better it will become and the more people may be tempted to pay up. The argument that it is a 'privilege' of FMs to be able to start a topic is ridiculous - 3 posts are 3 posts whether they're at the start, middle or end of a thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Why with the sarcasm all the time? Have you actually seen someone say they vehemently oppose the idea? This topic has come up a few times over the years and I have never seen anyone say they strongly disagree. You say 'people won't want it' without actually testing to see if you are right. Maybe some will say well I disagree but in not that bothered over a fiver, then what is the problem with that? I think every effort should be made to give people what they want in order to make the forum as successful as possible. Im not being sarcastic, I'm stating the bloody obvious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Registered Users can only post three times in 24 hrs. Does it really make any difference if one of those is to start a thread? They're still only going to have two other posts left! There are no disadvantages, only advantages: - 1. RUs starting a thread about a new topic gives everyone something else to talk about (might even enhance the forum experience of FMs by having more threads and discussions.) 2. A RU is more likely to want to get involved in a lively and interesting discussion that they've started and are therefore interested in, but they'll only have two remaining posts - so are more likely to be tempted to pay £5 for FM status to do so. 3. The more lively the discussions become, the more likely some of the older and more interesting posters of old are to return (I don't JUST mean Wurzel when I say 'old'). The more that they start using this place again the better it will become and the more people may be tempted to pay up. The argument that it is a 'privilege' of FMs to be able to start a topic is ridiculous - 3 posts are 3 posts whether they're at the start, middle or end of a thread! Im not entirely sure the point you're trying to make, since we're now discussing the implications of giving something away for free that FM pay for. Its not "ridiculous", Essruu, it's a specific privilege they receive for paying! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Ill point out once again, I am in FAVOUR of doing this, I'm just worried about the implications for us financially and legally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 So that's it then? Virtually every poster on this thread requests a change and due to being scared of legal action over a fiver, the requests are ignored? Same as normal then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 So that's it then? Virtually every poster on this thread requests a change and due to being scared of legal action over a fiver, the requests are ignored? Same as normal then. Oh pick up your toys hypo. Ive already said we're considering it and I'm in favour, I'm pointing out WHY we have serious reservations. I'm not ruling it out and the next stage will be a poll to all full members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 (edited) How about having "half members" who pay £1 for a subscription so they can start threads and nothing else. Full members don't get short changed and anyone who doesn't want to fork out £1 a year can f**k off. Edited 27 October, 2010 by Lighthouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Oh pick up your toys hypo. Ive already said we're considering it and I'm in favour, I'm pointing out WHY we have serious reservations. I'm not ruling it out and the next stage will be a poll to all full members. Thanks. Appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jillyanne Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Oh pick up your toys hypo. Ive already said we're considering it and I'm in favour, I'm pointing out WHY we have serious reservations. I'm not ruling it out and the next stage will be a poll to all full members. Wouldn't bother me in the slightest fwiw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Im not entirely sure the point you're trying to make, since we're now discussing the implications of giving something away for free that FM pay for. Its not "ridiculous", Essruu, it's a specific privilege they receive for paying! But surely you're already giving something away for free that Full Members pay for? You allow 3 daily posts for free. All you would be doing is allowing those 3 posts to also be allowed to start a thread, rather than join in on an existing one. As a Full Member I'd very much encourage this, and as Essruu has previously stated I think it would actually lead to more people joining up at the site would be a bit more lively and interesting. Its a little bit tired at the moment with the same old posters starting the same old threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 To those moaning just pay the £5. Clearly the site costs money so it strikes me as pretty rude to be asking for something for nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Who? Posted 27 October, 2010 Author Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Some very good points on this thread, but of course the problem is we would then be giving away for free a "facility" that subscribed members have paid the privilege for. Its all well and good saying we should just do it, but how would you (if you were in our shoes) deal with the complaints of those subscribed members who feel we have cheapened their membership. Hardly fair on them is it? Can you not set it so only full members can post new threads on the main board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 But surely you're already giving something away for free that Full Members pay for? You allow 3 daily posts for free. All you would be doing is allowing those 3 posts to also be allowed to start a thread, rather than join in on an existing one. But not breaking any expectations as FM's were completely aware of this from day one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickn Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 To those moaning just pay the £5. Clearly the site costs money so it strikes me as pretty rude to be asking for something for nothing. Must be socialists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 But not breaking any expectations as FM's were completely aware of this from day one. I understand your point. But as a full member I pay £5 and receive the rights that being a Full Member afford me. If you choose to the change the rights of Registered Users, you are not changing the terms and conditions of Full Members. Ok, you're maybe changing the "expectations" as you say, but what you get as a Full Member doesn't change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 I understand your point. But as a full member I pay £5 and receive the rights that being a Full Member afford me. If you choose to the change the rights of Registered Users, you are not changing the terms and conditions of Full Members. Ok, you're maybe changing the "expectations" as you say, but what you get as a Full Member doesn't change. And this is, succinctly, why I hope we can make this change without too much fuss. Well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Must be socialists I couldn't possibly think how you've linked wanting something for nothing and Socialism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Yeah, but the issue still remains that it wont get 100% approval, so how are we to deal with those that dont agree? How about try going back to how it was? There never seemed to be an issue with voluntary donations - never had access to the figures so can't be entirely sure either way - and the forum still used to give up the ghost as much as it does now.... Pretty sure the level of donations would be the same - maybe even increase - if we went back to the golden balls days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 How about try going back to how it was? There never seemed to be an issue with voluntary donations - never had access to the figures so can't be entirely sure either way - and the forum still used to give up the ghost as much as it does now.... Pretty sure the level of donations would be the same - maybe even increase - if we went back to the golden balls days. 100% agree with this. If it went back to donations i'd donate £10 per anum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 How about try going back to how it was? There never seemed to be an issue with voluntary donations - never had access to the figures so can't be entirely sure either way - and the forum still used to give up the ghost as much as it does now.... Pretty sure the level of donations would be the same - maybe even increase - if we went back to the golden balls days. Because that puts us back in a situation of not being able to financial plan for the year. The whole deal was to provide a sustained and predictable income so that we were able to provide a guaranteed service for years. Kinda the opposite of what the club did actually Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Baj how much does it cost to run this place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedAndWhite91 Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 I'm in favour of Registered Users being able to start threads (perhaps, again, there could be a limit on how many they could start per day, just like the number of posts they are allowed). I get annoyed when I'm reading a thread and a RU pops up with "Can't start a thread but" - and then goes off on something completely random and off topic.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Baj how much does it cost to run this place? Dune, believe me, we poured over all options and donations simply isn't viable due to attrition. We saw this from when we operated with donations before. We simply cant afford what we need based on donations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Dune, believe me, we poured over all options and donations simply isn't viable due to attrition. We saw this from when we operated with donations before. We simply cant afford what we need based on donations. Fair enough. I've got absolutely no sympathy for the complaints tbh. In fact i'd be tempted to make it a pay site and block all the tight bastards who have a problem coughing up a measly £5 per year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Bates Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Me and the tits will be back soon, started work yesterday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wurzel Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Ill point out once again, I am in FAVOUR of doing this, I'm just worried about the implications for us financially and legally. Damn 3 a day rule, had to wait 2 hours to post this Baj, what legal implications are there? The only details of what benefits subscribing gives you I can find are if I click the "Subscribe now" link at the top of the page. All that mentions isSubscribe to SaintsWeb for just £5 a year to post unlimited messages and for an advert-free site. No mention of exclusive ability to start threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Damn 3 a day rule, had to wait 2 hours to post this Baj, what legal implications are there? The only details of what benefits subscribing gives you I can find are if I click the "Subscribe now" link at the top of the page. All that mentions is No mention of exclusive ability to start threads. Cheers Wurzel... that's a really good spot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 I am not at all fussed about it, after all there post count would still be 3 posts a day, if one is a thread it means diddly to me. I actually think it may improve it a little and make it more interesting. I still believe though that banning people for the sake of 3-4 old fuddy duddys that can't or won't use an ignore button is also to to the detriment of the forum. The points of view generation really irks me, i understand that those that are intentionally aggressive etc will be banned but those that use a bit of sarcasm and a few jokes ?? Surely not. What do these people do when they hear sarcasm etc on the street run to the old bill ?? No they ignore it, so why do they not just ignore it on here ? Unfortunately it is those people that you are trying to appease that are choking the life out of the forum IMO. IMO the forum is slowly bleeding out and tbh we need to get a bit of banter back, a bit of togetherness and stop with all the p*ssing and moaning. You could make money etc by doing competitions like the player sponsorship one, getting signed shirts etc and having people put a bit in for a chance to get something out. Also i know of some other teams forums that arrange forum vs forum matches when they play away (or at home). All probably very stupid ideas but this place has become a lot more boring in the year or so i have been on here, with interesting posters being castrated. TMS is non existant now as you pretty much are unable to post anything on there either, even under the terms of TMS. I understand you having to protect yourselves with libel etc, and that is fine, just delete them, or delete posts as you see fit and publically warn people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Dune, believe me, we poured over all options and donations simply isn't viable due to attrition. We saw this from when we operated with donations before. We simply cant afford what we need based on donations. This isn't a complaint but out of curiosity, did you ever publish the accounts for saintsweb? I would be interested to see the costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Me and steve have checked, and as far as we can tell there's no where where we state starting threads is a privilege, except for this thread of course :S With that in mind, ill make the changes to the forum now and put an announcement out that all registered users can now start threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Can you not set it so only full members can post new threads on the main board? This!...Baj, if you have a poll, make this one of the options, it gets my vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 Some very good points on this thread, but of course the problem is we would then be giving away for free a "facility" that subscribed members have paid the privilege for. Its all well and good saying we should just do it, but how would you (if you were in our shoes) deal with the complaints of those subscribed members who feel we have cheapened their membership. Hardly fair on them is it? Tell them to suck it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 This isn't a complaint but out of curiosity, did you ever publish the accounts for saintsweb? I would be interested to see the costs. Available from Companies House if you so choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 October, 2010 Share Posted 27 October, 2010 I am not at all fussed about it, after all there post count would still be 3 posts a day, if one is a thread it means diddly to me. I actually think it may improve it a little and make it more interesting. I still believe though that banning people for the sake of 3-4 old fuddy duddys that can't or won't use an ignore button is also to to the detriment of the forum. The points of view generation really irks me, i understand that those that are intentionally aggressive etc will be banned but those that use a bit of sarcasm and a few jokes ?? Surely not. What do these people do when they hear sarcasm etc on the street run to the old bill ?? No they ignore it, so why do they not just ignore it on here ? Unfortunately it is those people that you are trying to appease that are choking the life out of the forum IMO. IMO the forum is slowly bleeding out and tbh we need to get a bit of banter back, a bit of togetherness and stop with all the p*ssing and moaning. You could make money etc by doing competitions like the player sponsorship one, getting signed shirts etc and having people put a bit in for a chance to get something out. Also i know of some other teams forums that arrange forum vs forum matches when they play away (or at home). All probably very stupid ideas but this place has become a lot more boring in the year or so i have been on here, with interesting posters being castrated. TMS is non existant now as you pretty much are unable to post anything on there either, even under the terms of TMS. I understand you having to protect yourselves with libel etc, and that is fine, just delete them, or delete posts as you see fit and publically warn people. TMS has always been sh*t. I wish the lounge and TMS would be merged and we went back to banter central with the * in topics you wish to remain sensible. That always worked best IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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