Employment Law Question.....

[Seaford Saint]

A colleague/friend has in the last two weeks or so tried to kill himself - he doesn't remember stabbing himself but that's evidently what he did. He narrowly missed piercing his heart but he tells me his left lung was affected because it filled with blood. He says he wasn't drunk or on drugs.

 

3 months ago this same friend/colleague was diagnosed as having muscular dystrophy and pretty much went into a depression and was signed off from work and I don't think he has ever recovered from being told about this.

 

He reckons he has just been diagnosed as suffering from hypermania, whatever that is.

 

He is due to meet HR this Wednesday and I would like be able to join him, I believe he is allowed to have some one come in with him. He said that he is likely to say something he will regret in the meeting which worries me a little. He would like to stop work as his job was fielding complaints all day, something I can tell you was a stressful occupation and all he is after is a pay off.

 

I'd like to know something about his rights. He has worked at the company for 13 years in a variety of roles. I would have thought that he could ask to be retired on the grounds of ill health. I would welcome anyone's input into what his rights are. I feel very very sorry for this guy and I would like to help him.

[Gemmel]

I think this is where an "off the record" conversation would work best.

Tell HR what he wants and the reality of not getting it would mean he would be off sick for the foreseable future and cost the company more money in the long run.

[bridge too far]

Your colleague is allowed to have a 'friend' with him. If he's in a union, they will do the job, but if not, then you can.

 

I know it's not a grievance in the normal sense of the word, but this site might help:

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/ResolvingWorkplaceDisputes/Grievanceprocedures/DG_10027992

[Redbul]

The employer has a duty of care for the employee. If your colleague feels that fielding complaints is too stressful for him then the job should be risk assessed factoring in all the mitigating circumstances that you mention above. I'm sure given his recent history the employer will see sense and accommodate him. A mental illness (which this is) is still a debilitating condition and even if this is a reaction to some really shocking news and maybe a temporary aberration, his welfare is paramount. Especially so at such a critical time for him.

 

Hope all goes well and the employer doesn't add more stressors to the poor nipper.

[buctootim]

I think this is where an "off the record" conversation would work best.

Tell HR what he wants and the reality of not getting it would mean he would be off sick for the foreseable future and cost the company more money in the long run.

 

Not sure about this. The risk is they would just sack him on grounds of incapacity. IMO you shouldn't mention the muscular dystrophy or self harm - just the depression brought on by the job - and negotiate an exit from there. Probably well worth getting an hours advice from a specialist employment lawyer or trade union rep though.

[bridge too far]

Or here, although there's probably not enough time:

 

Where to get help

 

Acas Helpline

 

08457 47 47 47

Monday to Friday

8.00 am to 8.00 pm

Saturday

9.00 am to 1.00 pm

 

 

Acas (the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service) offers free, confidential and impartial advice on all employment rights issues.

If you are a trade union member, you can contact your trade union representative for advice and support on employment issues.

Your local Citizens Advice Bureau (CAB) can provide free and impartial advice.

[Seaford Saint]

The meeting that's coming up for said friend colleague is billed as a "Wellness Meeting". I have no idea what format the meeting takes but my colleague has said that they (the Company) have asked for and received information on his condition, presumably from his GP. I believe the Company know about the muscular dystrophy, a condition that can take as long as 20 years to properly manifest itself, allegedly.

 

I am not sure my colleague is up to have a meeting with anyone....if that makes any sense.

[Redbul]

Is this a disciplinary meeting? I might be jumping to conclusions but you may be gearing up for a situation or confrontation that might not actually present itself. If The Company have got information on his condition they may be thinking of relocating him somewhere else. If they are looking to retire him on medical grounds I strongly suggest that he has some TU representation especially if it ever got to a tribunal.

[Clapham Saint]

He is definately allowed to have you with him. I wouldn't know about the other stuff though I'm afraid.

[franny]

Having dealt with something similar in another large local company I can only suggest that you find out what your companies policy is on ill health absence/retirement before the meeting, most good organisations post these on their intranet etc. Also if your colleague is in the company pension fund they (via the trustees) will probably also be involved at some point so again they may have a published policy on the matter. Such retirement will not be decided on in one meeting and medical professionals will need to be involved.

As suggested above the ACAS site is a good source and remember do not agree to anything without taking expert advice, treat it as an "information" meeting.

[Seaford Saint]

I don't know if this is a disciplinary meeting and I take your point that I might be worrying unnecessarily. I don't think it is disciplinary yet. He is coming to the end of his 16 week period of absence and its possible that this meeting was scheduled before the stabbing incident, I don't know. I wonder though if the stabbing incident changes things for the company, he has put entries on Facebook.

 

I have a feeling that this colleague will blow it in the meeting, his view of life currently is not normal. He is hoping for a pay off, he would possibly get a year's salary for all his years of service and would settle for that. I read somewhere that he might be retired on il health grounds and receive half his salary as a pension....this would be better for him.

 

He is going to need an income and if he doesn't work again he will just end up penniless. He has no family.

[Whitey Grandad]

Just hope that nobody who works for the company reads this forum. I would suspect that this is an initial meeting to discuss the general situation, but if you are not clear about the reason for it then you should ask now.

[benjii]

He is returning to work, yeah? Sounds like a "back to work" meeting rather than a disciplinary? The fact is, even if they wanted to, they would be very cautious about dismissing someone with a disability (and it sounds like your mate might have one).

 

Do they know that he stabbed himself? I imagine they are pretty concerned, justifiably, by the sounds of it, of the possible implications of having him at work if he is mentally unstable to the point of being a danger to himself or others.

 

I think it would be sensible to try to find out exactly what the point of this meeting is before formulating a "strategy".

[hamster]

Just to give you a little knowledge of MD though please bear in mind that I am not in any way an expert on these matters I just know a little.

 

It is generally viewed as a 'weakening' condition which usually (stressing 'usually) effects the skeletal muscular system. It can effect a number of other areas of the body and one of the side effects of many effects of these type's of 'disabilty' and in my experience potentially the most damaging is that of depression. Depression is a killer in itself with many sufferers suffering in silence, this is not a good way of managing it.

 

Please make it clear to the people from HR that your friend has shown signs of depression and (obviously with his consent) you might want to mention the self-harming.

 

I would strongly recomend AGAINST him or the company parting in the current situation, then again I am a mamby pamby social worker who know's sweet FA, apart from the friends, family and colleagues who I have lost to depression that is. imho he needs their support andf yes, they do have a duty of care, especially when in possesion of all the facts.

 

Good luck to him my friend and good luck to you too.

 

 

If anyone wants to read a brilliant book that explains what life with depression can be like I reccomend 'I Had a Black Dog' by Matthew Johnstone.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Had-Black-Dog-Matthew-Johnstone/dp/1845295897

 

there's a good follow up book too.

Edited 25 October, 2010 by hamster

[Barney Trubble]

A lot would depend on his age, it's unlikely they will retire him on ill-health grounds if he's still relatively young due to pension etc.

 

Occupational Health usually sit on the fence and expect the employer to make reasonable arrangements to accommodate him back into work but with certain restrictions as to what he can do, or can't. HR can do what they like to be honest, despite all the bull**** about being impartial, duty of care, employment law etc, they can manipulate the situation anyway they want. I've sat on quite a few final case hearings and the things that go on, that shouldn't is quite scary. A lot will depend on his previous history with the employer as to how they approach the issue. Definitely get some independent advice and hope that he has caring people in HR.

[Johnny Bognor]

I don't know if this is a disciplinary meeting and I take your point that I might be worrying unnecessarily. I don't think it is disciplinary yet. He is coming to the end of his 16 week period of absence and its possible that this meeting was scheduled before the stabbing incident, I don't know. I wonder though if the stabbing incident changes things for the company, he has put entries on Facebook.

 

I have a feeling that this colleague will blow it in the meeting, his view of life currently is not normal. He is hoping for a pay off, he would possibly get a year's salary for all his years of service and would settle for that. I read somewhere that he might be retired on il health grounds and receive half his salary as a pension....this would be better for him.

 

He is going to need an income and if he doesn't work again he will just end up penniless. He has no family.

 

PM Sent

[chrisobee]

Very complicated especially as some employers still discriminate against those with mental health problems and though there is some legislation the law relating to mental health has evolved from case law rather than legislation. In some cases stress/mental health problems are covered by the The Disability Discrimination Act 1995. So anxiety, stress and depression may be sufficient to qualify a person as disabled and therefore covered by the DDA, as long as there is a substantial and long-term effect (for at least a year) on their ability to carry out normal day-to-day duties. Those with clinically recognised mental health diagnoses are very likely to be covered by the Act. In the case of your friend his stress over 13 years at work might be a key issue. Incidentally sick absence is not a disciplinary issue but will be invariably looked at on the grounds of ineffeciency.

He certainly needs support and as correctly stated you or someone else are entitled to accompany him. Getting as much advice as you can, which is clearly what you are trying to do, is vital. Good luck.

[BadgerBadger]

I've known of someone who had issues that kept them off work for the best part of a year, the company kept in constant touch, provided help and assistance, payed them on a basic wage and helped them back to work as a valued employee and is now back in the ranks - this was a large blue chip company and may not be relevant in this case but gives you an idea of the best case scenario. Employers have a duty of care but it depends on the size of the company for what they're willing to provide as I guess it's not a legal requirement i.e. some companies pay huge redundancies some pay bugger all.

 

If there's no union to get involved have a quiet word with HR failing that speak to Citizens Advice, if that is not helpfull defo speak to a Solicitor.

 

Be carefull of the 'all I want is a pay off' mindset - that may utimately be the outcome but do not enter into discussion with this as the premise, the company may/should provide far more help (considering his length of service) than a wedge of cash could ever offer considering the circumstances. Keep all discussions emotion free and stick to the basic facts and always; take in the info, don't react and take time to advise and digest before the next meeting. Emotive meetings do not help - keep it basic, succinct and professional. Hope all goes well for the individual involved!!

Edited 26 October, 2010 by BadgerBadger

[Seaford Saint]

Thanks to all who have replied, including the PM from Johnny Bognor.

 

I am much better informed thanks to you all and the internet!!!!!

[Viking Warrior]

Twentytwenty

 

From what you are describing it sounds very much like a return to work interview . and a way of exploring your mates return to work

Employment law has recently changed and their is a greater emphasis on employers to encourage sick employees to return to work and or other options. they will probably want to send to occupational health for guidance.

if he has a confirmed mental health problem then this is covered by the new equailty act

 

PM me if you need additional information as this is something than cannot be discussed on an open forum thread

[bridge too far]

How did things go?

 

In looking for an answer to another question, I found this

 

http://www.equalities.gov.uk/pdf/401727_GEO_EqualityLaw_Rights_acc.pdf

 

Have a look at the example given on page 3. Might this be relevant to your colleague?