The Spending Review (tackling the Socialists debt mountain)

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Ha ha ha.!!!!!!!

Brilliant

 

It is terribly written also.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Ha ha ha.!!!!!!!

Brilliant

 

It is terribly written also.

[Whitey Grandad]

Good, because you are wrong.

 

You really are a sad pathetic little man giving it "the big 'un" behind your keyboard. Dune, what I've said is fact, if you don't agree with it then that is your agenda, but I know I'm right. I'll say it before and say it again, when you can come back and show me your historical qualifications I will give your warped ideas the time of day. Until that point, you're going to have be contented denying the truth.

 

But what is 'truth'? As far as history is concerned there must be some element of subjectivity in it, surely?

Edited 7 November, 2010 by Whitey Grandad
bloody ipad spelling correcter

[dune]

Good, because you are wrong.

 

You really are a sad pathetic little man giving it "the big 'un" behind your keyboard. Dune, what I've said is fact, if you don't agree with it then that is your agenda, but I know I'm right. I'll say it before and say it again, when you can come back and show me your historical qualifications I will give your warped ideas the time of day. Until that point, you're going to have be contented denying the truth.

 

I will ignore you little tantrum and address your point. You may well have qualifications but that doesn't mean you are more informed than someone with an interest in the subject. I would suggest you try think outside the curriculum and what you are brainwashed to think and try to be a little bit more scholarly. There's always several angles to look at historical events, but I feel you'll never really grasp the subject like people like Simon Schama, because of your Marxist inclinations.

 

If you require any assistance i'd be more than happy to help.

[badgerx16]

.......but I feel you'll never really grasp the subject like people like Simon Schama, because of your Marxist inclinations.

Can you provide some evidence in justification of this facile slur ? Or is this just more playground taunts : "You're wrong because I said so".

 

I could just as easily claim that you can't grasp reality because you support Nigel Farage.

[dune]

Can you provide some evidence in justification of this facile slur ? Or is this just more playground taunts : "You're wrong because I said so".

 

No it's not. I think History should be looked at subjectively without political bias. I strongly believe far too many people are brainwashed and ignorant and base their conclusions on an one sided (leftwing) version of events and that is tragedy. It's not a subject that should be taught imo, it's a subject that should be researched and students encouraged to come to their own conclusions.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

Are you upset because 'Mein Kampf' isn't a set text ?

 

Lol !!!!!

[dune]

Lol !!!!!

 

I'm not saying it should be in the curriculum because there's only so much that can be studied, but if considerable time is spent studying that period of history then there is an argument that it should be included because it's a big part of the picture. My conclusion is that Hitler was a madman and was only able to rise to power because of the treaty of versailles, so the real lesson from WW2 IMO is that in victory you do not punish the defeated because all WW2 essentially is is WW1 phase 2. It's the same war.

Edited 7 November, 2010 by dune

[badgerx16]

No it's not. I think History should be looked at subjectively without political bias. I strongly believe far too many people are brainwashed and ignorant and base their conclusions on an one sided (leftwing) version of events and that is tragedy. It's not a subject that should be taught imo, it's a subject that should be researched and students encouraged to come to their own conclusions.

Or quite simply they have come to a different conclusion to yours, and you cannot accept that you might be wrong ?

[dune]

Or quite simply they have come to a different conclusion to yours, and you cannot accept that you might be wrong ?

 

I can accept I might be wrong on areas i've researched, but I endeavour to look at the details and not to base my conclusions upon the poltically taught agenda of the national curriculum/the political agenda.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

I'm not saying it should be in the curriculum because there's only so much that can be studied, but if considerable time is spent studying that period of history then there is an argument that it should be included because it's a big part of the picture. My conclusion is that Hitler was a madman and was only able to rise to power because of the treaty of versailles, so the real lesson from WW2 IMO is that in victory you do not punish the defeated because all WW2 essentially is is WW1 phase 2. It's the same war.

 

Some of us will always remember you (Stanley) letting slip your view that we would have been better off if the Nazi's had won WW2.

[dune]

Some of us will always remember you (Stanley) letting slip your view that we would have been better off if the Nazi's had won WW2.

 

I never said that and you know it. I foolishly thought some people on here might be able to engage in an adult discussion on a delicate subject and posed a question asking would Britain be a better country now ... 65 years later ... if we'd be on the axis side in WW2. I made the point that the holocaust was dreaful, but also the made the point that Britain rounded up thousands of mao mao "terrorists" in Kenya post 45 and put them in concentration camps just the same only we starved them and beat them to death. I made the point that we were no better. But I really can't be arsed to even try to have a serious debate on this because i've learnt that it's impossible on here because people like you are incapable of it.

[badgerx16]

I'm not saying it should be in the curriculum because there's only so much that can be studied, but if considerable time is spent studying that period of history then there is an argument that it should be included because it's a big part of the picture. My conclusion is that Hitler was a madman and was only able to rise to power because of the treaty of versailles, so the real lesson from WW2 IMO is that in victory you do not punish the defeated because all WW2 essentially is is WW1 phase 2.

Hitler's rise to power was far more complex than that; it was founded in the German national temperament, a hangover from Frederick The Great and Prussian militarism. Defeat in WW1 and Versailles led to a sense of undue persecution, and the turmoil due to the revolutionary wars in Russia, and the demolition of the Hapsburg empire, created an extremist left-right schism in European, and particularly German, politics. After the financial disaster of the Weimar republic, Hitler succesfully manipulated the democratic process and was elected to office by entirely legitimate means. President Hindenburg thought, incorrectly, that by offering him the post of Reichs Chancellor he could limit Hitler's ambition. Once securely in control of Germany, Hitler was able to exploit British and French hesitation and unwillingness to commit Europe to another military confrontation, ( the French themselves suffering from an internal stagnation due to the afore mentioned extremist schism ).

There were many opportunities to stop him, and if the League of Nations had had any teeth or resolve the Thousand Year Reich would have been stillborn.

 

How's that for a left-wing interpretation of history ?

Edited 7 November, 2010 by badgerx16

[dune]

Hitler's rise to power was far more complex than that; it was founded in the German national temperament, a hangover from Frederick The Great and Prussian militarism. Defeat in WW1 and Versailles led to a sense of undue persecution, and the turmoil due to the revolutionary wars in Russia, and the demolition of the Hapsburg empire, created an extremist left-right schism in European, and particularly German, politics. After the financial disaster of the Weimar republic, Hitler succesfully manipulated the democratic process and was elected to office by entirely legitimate means. President Hidenburg thought, incorrectly, that by offering him the post of Reichs Chancellor he could limit Hitler's ambition. Once securely in control of Germany, Hitler was able to exploit British and French hesitation and unwillingness to commit Europe to another military confrontation, ( the French themselves suffering from an internal stagnation due to the afore mentioned extremist schism ).

There were many opportunities to stop him, and if the League of Nations had had any teeth or resolve the Thousand Year Reich would have been stillborn.

 

How's that for a left-wing interpretation of history ?

 

I don't dispute any of that, the Prussians were very millitaristic people, and their mindset was always going to be at odds with being passified by us and France. Times were different then, but we did make a big mistake by punishing them so much and driving the German people to rally behind a saviour millitaristic party in order to better their lives in their view.

[dune]

Actually here's a good example of the point i'm making about how history such be researched.

 

In the 50's this would have been the taught view - clearly the mau mau very bad guys.

 

 

 

 

History now has gone full circle and schools would teach that Imperialism was bad.

 

I don't accept either view and I like to do my own research and base my opinions on that. You should not be taught what should be interpretted from History, it's far far more complex than that.

Edited 7 November, 2010 by dune

[badgerx16]

History is written by the victors.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

I never said that and you know it. I foolishly thought some people on here might be able to engage in an adult discussion on a delicate subject and posed a question asking would Britain be a better country now ... 65 years later ... if we'd be on the axis side in WW2. I made the point that the holocaust was dreaful, but also the made the point that Britain rounded up thousands of mao mao "terrorists" in Kenya post 45 and put them in concentration camps just the same only we starved them and beat them to death. I made the point that we were no better. But I really can't be arsed to even try to have a serious debate on this because i've learnt that it's impossible on here because people like you are incapable of it.

 

Serious debate with you!!!!!! lol!!! please don't deny your past posting as Stanley/Mole/Sword of Honour etc. Anyway happy trolling nazi boy..... Gute Nacht.

[Whitey Grandad]

History is written by the victors.

 

Indeed. Look what they said about Richard III.

[dune]

History is written by the victors.

 

But in this day and age we can choose whether to be a sheep or not because there is a mine of info out there. Sadly the national curiculum doesn't give children that choice.

[badgerx16]

But in this day and age we can choose whether to be a sheep or not because there is a mine of info out there. Sadly the national curiculum doesn't give children that choice.

As long as it teaches them to read and reason, they can do the rest for themselves.

[dune]

As long as it teaches them to read and reason, they can do the rest for themselves.

 

It's not education though, it's brainwashing to a political agenda. It's laughable how you get a few people who shout and scream and call me a fascist, when i'm not, but if you think about it's those who try to stifle the debate who are showing intolerance and that is akin to a fascist/comunist way of going on. This is what you should think and this is what you should say - that is the attitude of people like Andy. Anyone who thinks differently is an enemy that has no right to dare to think the opposite or even to think down the middle. The subject is not up for discussion for people like this. That is not how history should be looked at because history can teach us a lot because human nature is a constant, but you'll never learn anything, and thus the same mistakes will continue to be made, if it's not interpretted freely.

[dune]

Serious debate with you!!!!!! lol!!! please don't deny your past posting as Stanley/Mole/Sword of Honour etc. Anyway happy trolling nazi boy..... Gute Nacht.

 

Not me, I was Voice of Reason once though. A few years back there was Lowe supporter called Sword of Truth and I used to agree with everything he said to annoy him.

[badgerx16]

Not me, I was Voice of Reason once though. A few years back there was Lowe supporter called Sword of Truth and I used to agree with everything he said to annoy him.

Schizophrenia can be such a bind.

[badgerx16]

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/Countering-the-cuts-myths

 

That should wake the thread up.

[dune]

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/Countering-the-cuts-myths

 

That should wake the thread up.

 

"The Red Pepper"

 

Pure Marxist propaganda.

[Whitey Grandad]

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/Countering-the-cuts-myths

 

That should wake the thread up.

 

I've never read such wool-woofter nonsense:

 

'What the data shows, therefore, is not that public sector workers are overpaid, but that some private sector workers are severely underpaid.' -?????

 

'Labour’s increased spending also addressed workforce shortages in schools and the NHS, where more staff were needed to raise educational standards and care for an ageing population.' - neither of these has happened.

 

I could go on all day.

[bridge too far]

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/Countering-the-cuts-myths

 

That should wake the thread up.

 

Good one - but no doubt the Whigs on here will dismiss it as Marxist claptrap. As for the fascists.............

[badgerx16]

"The Red Pepper"

 

Pure Marxist propaganda.

 

Strike one !

[badgerx16]

I've never read such wool-woofter nonsense:

 

'What the data shows, therefore, is not that public sector workers are overpaid, but that some private sector workers are severely underpaid.' -?????

 

'Labour’s increased spending also addressed workforce shortages in schools and the NHS, where more staff were needed to raise educational standards and care for an ageing population.' - neither of these has happened.

 

I could go on all day.

 

Strike two !

[trousers]

Marxist claptrap

[Seaford Saint]

I guess I am a bit of a Marxist these days.....the privatised water companies waste millions of litres of water daily equivalent to 17 flushes a day per household allegedly, somebody worked this out...... The trains are getting more crowded and customers don't know where the price rise money goes. No ****?

 

No, I'd nationalise both trains anda water, same with gas.

 

I do recall in the boozer back in 1983/85 when Maggie privatised these.....the working class heroes in there were all in favour of it. I bet they are all in fuel poverty (I earn 3 times the national wage) now. I said at the time that it would be impossible for any of the companies to make a loss as they have a captive market and so it has proved.

Edited 9 November, 2010 by Seaford Saint

[Whitey Grandad]

I guess I am a bit of a Marxist these days.....the privatised water companies waste millions of litres of water daily equivalent to 17 flushes a day per household allegedly, somebody worked this out...... The trains are getting more crowded and customers don't know where the price rise money goes. No ****?

 

No, I'd nationalise both trains anda water, same with gas.

 

I do recall in the boozer back in 1983/85 when Maggie privatised these.....the working class heroes in there were all in favour of it. I bet they are all in fuel poverty (I earn 3 times the national wage) now. I said at the time that it would be impossible for any of the companies to make a loss as they have a captive market and so it has proved.

 

How would that help?

 

I do agree that the system of rail privatisation is one big nonsense. How can you have competition when one train can't overtake another? The system of through-ticketing is a complete nightmare and you have the crazy situation where an operator can't fix signage to a station wall because they don't own the building.

[Whitey Grandad]

Strike two !

 

No, strikes are outlawed in our world.

[badgerx16]

Marxist claptrap

A concise, point by point analysis and critique of the article.

[Whitey Grandad]

A concise, point by point analysis and critique of the article.

 

Concise, certainly. Precise, too.

[badgerx16]

Concise, certainly. Precise, too.

But is seems that for some on here the only way to counter a point of view is too blithely rebut it as 'claptrap'. It really does get the alternative perspective across clearly.

[thefunkygibbons]

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/Countering-the-cuts-myths

 

That should wake the thread up.

 

Do the people who write this stuff really believe it?

[georgeweahscousin]

Loathed as I am to join this debate 9 pages in, but it strikes(pardon the pun) me as bizarre that anyone can look back on the last government and defend their financial policy, or more aptly non-policy.

 

No one is "happy" about these cuts, unfortunately they are a necessary evil. The "head in the sand" approach by Brown and his cronies got us into this mess and only the exact opposite. Direct action. Will get us out.

 

Having worked in the public sector, I can tell you that if ever there was something that needed shaking up, that is it. It has too long had "a jobs for the boys" feel about it.

 

What people need to do in this situation is stop moaning and get on with it. Striking and industrial action will only heighten the problems not solve them.

 

Keep the faith. I have no doubt that the current government will clear up Labours mess, just like they did in the 1970's.

[Whitey Grandad]

Do the people who write this stuff really believe it?

 

That was my response. I certainly wouldn't try to read it out in public, there would be universal ridicule and evrybody would be rolling in the aisles laughing.

[bridge too far]

That was my response. I certainly wouldn't try to read it out in public, there would be universal ridicule and evrybody would be rolling in the aisles laughing.

 

A slight exaggeration I think. I'm no apologist or supporter of this publication, but the kudos of its (unpaid) contributors leads me to accord its articles some respect and background reading.

 

I'm more likely to ridicule the unresearched, knee-jerk, I'm alright Jack publications such as the Mail.

[badgerx16]

No one is "happy" about these cuts, unfortunately they are a necessary evil.

The question is over the speed, depth, and targetting of the cuts. The program is far too dogmatic, there is no need to deal as severely or as brutally as Georgie Boy and the "Ginger Rat", ( @ reproduced by kind permission of Harriet Harman ), are doing. Why not take 2 years longer ? There is absolutely nothing that dictates the timetable other than the date of the next election.

[bridge too far]

The question is over the speed, depth, and targetting of the cuts. The program is far too dogmatic, there is no need to deal as severely or as brutally as Georgie Boy and the "Ginger Rat", ( @ reproduced by kind permission of Harriet Harman ), are doing. Why not take 2 years longer ? There is absolutely nothing that dictates the timetable other than the date of the next election.

 

And herein lies the rub. The present government proposes fixed term parliaments. So they have 4 years of harsh cuts enabling a big give away in year 5 to court the electorate. With the previous system, there was, at least, a chance of a vote of no confidence and the premature downfall of the party in power. No such chance now.

 

So watch out for the bribery in 2015.

[benjii]

Rather take bribery in the last year of a government than Labour's spiteful and abhorrent slash and burn.

[badgerx16]

Rather take bribery in the last year of a government than Labour's spiteful and abhorrent slash and burn.

And what we have at the moment is a Tory led program of exactly this, enabled by a LibDem party that has sold out on every principle they ever held and every manifesto promise they presented at the last election.

[dune]

Do the people who write this stuff really believe it?

 

Of course they don't. The Marxists views defy logic, but they feed upon the ignorance of their comrades.

[dune]

Rather take bribery in the last year of a government than Labour's spiteful and abhorrent slash and burn.

 

Ordering the aircraft carriers and trying to force through new school builds during their dying days were a deliberate scorched earth policy, like a medieval army burning the fields to starve the people. I really hate Labour with a passion for many things, but this is near the top.

[Whitey Grandad]

The question is over the speed, depth, and targetting of the cuts. The program is far too dogmatic, there is no need to deal as severely or as brutally as Georgie Boy and the "Ginger Rat", ( @ reproduced by kind permission of Harriet Harman ), are doing. Why not take 2 years longer ? There is absolutely nothing that dictates the timetable other than the date of the next election.

 

Even after these cuts government spending will still be at the same level as three years ago. When you are heading in the wrong direction it's best to change course as soon as possible.

[Whitey Grandad]

A slight exaggeration I think. I'm no apologist or supporter of this publication, but the kudos of its (unpaid) contributors leads me to accord its articles some respect and background reading.

 

I'm more likely to ridicule the unresearched, knee-jerk, I'm alright Jack publications such as the Mail.

Just a quick skim through throws up some obviously ridiculous points. How about 'it's not that public sector workers are overpaid, but that some private sector workers are severely underpaid' ?

[bridge too far]

Just a quick skim through throws up some obviously ridiculous points. How about 'it's not that public sector workers are overpaid, but that some private sector workers are severely underpaid' ?

 

Because in SOME (being the operative word) cases this is so. Many, many former public sector workers have been transferred to the private sector (viz catering / cleaning staff in hospitals). Already low paid, once the TUPE period term had been worked through their terms and conditions were inferior to those they'd enjoyed in the public sector. That's how.

[benjii]

Because in SOME (being the operative word) cases this is so. Many, many former public sector workers have been transferred to the private sector (viz catering / cleaning staff in hospitals). Already low paid, once the TUPE period term had been worked through their terms and conditions were inferior to those they'd enjoyed in the public sector. That's how.

 

Aye, thus proving they were overpaid in the public sector FFS.