'Aircraft' carriers

[derry]

It's a sick joke and sits alongside the Typhoon, designed to have a cannon, designed out on RAF planes, then needed ballast but that didn't work, the cannons were replaced as ballast but can't be fired as there is now no fire control system. Alongside the six Special forces Chinooks that have sat for ten years because they can only fly in VFR because the systems weren't designed properly.

 

It's no good trying to blame anybody but Gordon Brown who borrowed more than we could afford and wasted the lot. Now we have to cut everything and are still spending too much. £7bn foreign aid FFS, cancel the lot, we need to sort things out here and get rid of the department that administrates it.

[alpine_saint]

For all you Harriet Harperson lovers out there, it was Labour who f**ked up the country budget and committed so much defence spending to a pointless war in Vietnam...er...Afghanistan, therefore requiring the need to completely destroy the operational capability of our Navy in the name of "budget cuts"

 

For an island, an act of complete and utter insanity /suicide. Bet Argentina is licking its collective lips.

[alpine_saint]

It's no good trying to blame anybody but Gordon Brown who borrowed more than we could afford and wasted the lot. Now we have to cut everything and are still spending too much. £7bn foreign aid FFS, cancel the lot, we need to sort things out here and get rid of the department that administrates it.

 

Absolutely. Cutting our Navy whilst subsidising Russsia and China is an act of complete peversity.

[alpine_saint]

Have also read that HMS Ocean is being scrapped immediately too.

[trousers]

Have I missed something

 

Yes.

 

HTH

[moonraker]

It's a sick joke and sits alongside the Typhoon, designed to have a cannon, designed out on RAF planes, then needed ballast but that didn't work, the cannons were replaced as ballast but can't be fired as there is now no fire control system. Alongside the six Special forces Chinooks that have sat for ten years because they can only fly in VFR because the systems weren't designed properly.

 

It's no good trying to blame anybody but Gordon Brown who borrowed more than we could afford and wasted the lot. Now we have to cut everything and are still spending too much. £7bn foreign aid FFS, cancel the lot, we need to sort things out here and get rid of the department that administrates it.

 

The special forces HC 3 Chinooks were ordered by Majors lot a complet contractural FU, alongside our armed forces foreign aid is essential to our credibilty in the world , I dont think that all of the new hospitals and schools support Labour wasted the lot, they didnt get everything right but they got quite a bit right inspite of Brown.

[moonraker]

You can take the party politics out of the defence debate, the problem is that politicians as breed have no real understanding of the role of our Armed Forces or respect for the men and women who serve in them and even the civil servants who support them.

One Harrier pilot, Royal Navy Lieutenant Commander Kris Ward asked the PM: "I have flown 140 odd missions in Afghanistan and I am now potentially facing unemployment. How am I supposed to feel about that sir?"

Mr Cameron thanked him for "everything" he had done for his country,” now F**k o**.

[Thedelldays]

the forces were always getting smaller when the country was throwing cash around for a decade....what do people expect now ..?

[derry]

What credibility? Are we talking about the vast amount of money thrown at administration, inflated salaries, targets and consultants? As for the education system, what a cluster**** that has turned out.

[moonraker]

The biggest reduction in Armed Forces numbers and capability in the last 50 years was between 91 - 97, when the Tories halved the defence budget made thousands and thousands of servicemen redundant then asked many to come back when it was realised that all the experience had left. In 1990 the RN had over 35 escorts 24 submarines 3 operational Invincible Carriers, 2 LPD’s, 20 + MCMV's by 1997 we had 28 Escorts, 14 submarines 2 operational Invincible Carriers, 1 LPH, 1 LPD, 17 MCMV's with numbers planned to be reduced further with no new escort design agreed and no replacements for the 30+ year old LPD. Believe me you can draw up similar lists for the Army and RAF.

[moonraker]

What credibility? Are we talking about the vast amount of money thrown at administration, inflated salaries, targets and consultants? As for the education system, what a cluster**** that has turned out.

 

From my perosnal experince I do not agree.

[ecuk268]

The biggest reduction in Armed Forces numbers and capability in the last 50 years was between 91 - 97, when the Tories halved the defence budget made thousands and thousands of servicemen redundant then asked many to come back when it was realised that all the experience had left. In 1990 the RN had over 35 escorts 24 submarines 3 operational Invincible Carriers, 2 LPD’s, 20 + MCMV's by 1997 we had 28 Escorts, 14 submarines 2 operational Invincible Carriers, 1 LPH, 1 LPD, 17 MCMV's with numbers planned to be reduced further with no new escort design agreed and no replacements for the 30+ year old LPD. Believe me you can draw up similar lists for the Army and RAF.

 

Go back to '81 when Keith Speed the Navy Minister resigned in protest of the biggest cuts to the Navy ever by Thatcher.

 

HMS Invincible was about to be flogged off to the Aussies when the Falklands happened and we were scratching around for merchant ships to transport troops and equipment.

 

What are these expensive lumps of steel going to do for 10 years until they get their aircraft. They can't use Harriers as they're being scrapped too.

[Thedelldays]

The biggest reduction in Armed Forces numbers and capability in the last 50 years was between 91 - 97, when the Tories halved the defence budget made thousands and thousands of servicemen redundant then asked many to come back when it was realised that all the experience had left. In 1990 the RN had over 35 escorts 24 submarines 3 operational Invincible Carriers, 2 LPD’s, 20 + MCMV's by 1997 we had 28 Escorts, 14 submarines 2 operational Invincible Carriers, 1 LPH, 1 LPD, 17 MCMV's with numbers planned to be reduced further with no new escort design agreed and no replacements for the 30+ year old LPD. Believe me you can draw up similar lists for the Army and RAF.

 

that was when the cold war ended..?

[moonraker]

that was when the cold war ended..?

 

Your point is!

[Johnny Bognor]

Go back to '81 when Keith Speed the Navy Minister resigned in protest of the biggest cuts to the Navy ever by Thatcher.

 

HMS Invincible was about to be flogged off to the Aussies when the Falklands happened and we were scratching around for merchant ships to transport troops and equipment.

 

What are these expensive lumps of steel going to do for 10 years until they get their aircraft. They can't use Harriers as they're being scrapped too.

 

I heard on the radio that the first one won't come into service until 2016 at the earliest and the second in 2018. Knowing how these sorts of projects work, they will probably be not be delivered by 2020. Dave hasn't ruled out aircraft altogether, just none until 2020.

[Thedelldays]

Your point is!

 

when a war ends (like a major arms race like the cold war) you tend to downsize..

 

watch the army shrink the moment afghanistan is over

[moonraker]

2016 has been the ISD for QE for a while, PoW will have a delayed ISD due to redesign work to fit additional Steam Gear, the space and weight budget for which was I understand inculded in the requirments as the previous Gov recognised that it might be useful.

[buctootim]

I heard on the radio that the first one won't come into service until 2016 at the earliest and the second in 2018. Knowing how these sorts of projects work, they will probably be not be delivered by 2020. Dave hasn't ruled out aircraft altogether, just none until 2020.

 

I dont see the logic in this. Either the aircraft carriers are needed, in which case the planes should be ready at the same time as the carriers, or we can do without them and you might as well scrap the whole project. Building them just so they can sit around, cost money, deteriorate, but be useless seems to be the worst possible solution.

[aintforever]

Looks like a complete disaster, the aircraft carriers would probably have been white elephants anyway but without aircraft what is the point?

 

The current government are in a no win situation - you can only blame labour for signing the contracts.

 

We should cut and run from Afganistan though, I don't see the point in spending millions on that war when we can't even afford a proper navy - complete madness.

[dune]

I dont see the logic in this. Either the aircraft carriers are needed, in which case the planes should be ready at the same time as the carriers, or we can do without them and you might as well scrap the whole project. Building them just so they can sit around, cost money, deteriorate, but be useless seems to be the worst possible solution.

 

The dopey Socialists signed a contract that would have meant cancelling the carriers would've cost more than having them.

[badgerx16]

The dopey Socialists signed a contract that would have meant cancelling the carriers would've cost more than having them.

If the Tories wanted out of the contract, which 'allegedly' bears such a price, they would have found a way. Parliament, as we have found so many times, makes it's own rules. This is just as much a smokescreen as HMS Exeter put up at the Battle of the River Plate.

[bridge too far]

If the Tories wanted out of the contract, which 'allegedly' bears such a price, they would have found a way. Parliament, as we have found so many times, makes it's own rules. This is just as much a smokescreen as HMS Exeter put up at the Battle of the River Plate.

 

Indeed - when Liam Fox was interviewed this afternoon, he said that 'we are such a big purchaser, we can call the shots'. Then he should have called the shots on this one.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Won't say too much (in true Delldays fashion) but reading this thread does make me lol. The internet is great isn't it - a medium that allows a random group of people to sprout opinions on complex subjects based on minute or even no knowledge - not that I've ever been guilty of that..........

[benjii]

Defence spending should be savaged. We should contribute forces to NATO, UN etc in the same proportion as similarly sized Euro countries and apart from that we should mind our own business.

[Special K]

If the Tories wanted out of the contract, which 'allegedly' bears such a price, they would have found a way. Parliament, as we have found so many times, makes it's own rules. This is just as much a smokescreen as HMS Exeter put up at the Battle of the River Plate.

 

And risk finding themselves in the midst of complex and costly legal wrangles which benefit no-one but m'learned friends? I don't think so. The real issue is why we are in this place to start with. Ineptitude over the last 13 years being the biggest cause.

 

The new carriers will be able to carry french and american planes, but not british ones as Labour signed contracts that meant the delivery of new planes would not arrive at the same time as the ships. FFS, how stupid can you get?!?!

[ecuk268]

Interesting snippet on the news last night.

 

The UK defence budget is around £10bn and is administered by 25000 civil servants.

 

The Israeli defence budget is £9bn and is administered by 400 civil servants.

 

Over manning???

[Verbal]

Interesting snippet on the news last night.

 

The UK defence budget is around £10bn and is administered by 25000 civil servants.

 

The Israeli defence budget is £9bn and is administered by 400 civil servants.

 

Over manning???

 

Your figures are way off. The two carriers alone cost more than £10b.

[Johnny Bognor]

Your figures are way off. The two carriers alone cost more than £10b.

 

Not all in one go they are not as the cost would be spread over the lifetime of the project (for example £1bn per year over 10 years). Having said that, the figures are still way off (Source: http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/Organisation/KeyFactsAboutDefence/DefenceSpending.htm). The defence budget is split into resource (ongoing running costs) @ £36.7bn and capital expenditure @ £8.8bn.

 

Having said that, I'd bet my bottom dollor that the Israelis would employ less civil servants per £bn than the UK would.

[Thedelldays]

spells the end of Plymouth dockyard within 10 years IMO...will be devastating for the local area

[derry]

Interesting snippet on the news last night.

 

The UK defence budget is around £10bn and is administered by 25000 civil servants.

 

The Israeli defence budget is £9bn and is administered by 400 civil servants.

 

Over manning???

 

£30+ bn and 85000 MoD civil servants.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

To be fair to the MOD you have to compare Apples with Apples. Our services are deployed around the world whereas Israeli forces are concentrated in a very small location. In addition a large proportion of Israeli defence spending is upon US 'off the shelf' products (tanks, aeroplanes etc) so the expertise and administration of procurement and the supply chain is massively reduced. Further much of their service personnel are conscripts so hit the budget to a much smaller degree than our professional personnel.