So What's Changed?

[saintscottofthenortham]

The team that beat Bristol Rovers 4-0 away wasn't too bad. Best result of the season so far.

 

As the Opening Post says, the turn around is Adkins over the Wilkins interlude, as we can't know how well the team would be doing if Pardew had remained in charge, but quite probably they'd be further up the table than they are now if the three defeats that followed the sacking, had not happened.

 

So what has changed? Well, we haven't just had the manager sacked after an emphatic win, with no proper reason being given to either the players or the fans. That obviously had a major effect on morale that has taken the re-appointment of another capable manager to start repairing it. Adkins may well have strengths Pardew didn't have, but the opposite will also be true. Five games without defeat is great, but it doesn't make Pardew a bad manager and is no reflection on him at all. Scoring goals is still a problem and 2 goals at home against the bottom club playing mostly kids, is not conclusive.

With the team having won 5-0 at Huddersfield under Pardew only 6 months ago, Saturday's game is a better test from which to judge them under Adkins and for me, they don't have to win big again, but they do need to win.

 

Oh dear.

 

- As myself and others have tried to explain, the 4-0 win was EXTREMELY flattering.

- How can you say we would probably be higher in the league with AP in charge when we were playing like a sunday league team who had been assembled in the previous week?

- You have no idea what the players know, so dont try and speak factually when creating nonsence.

- IIRC... The teams morale looked shot to bits before AP was sacked. Couldn't string to passes together, created absolutely nothing, walked straight off at the end of dissapointing results without so much as a single acknowledgement of us fans....

- "Scoring goals is still a problem and 2 goals at home against the bottom club playing mostly kids, is not conclusive." - The difference now is that we actually look loike scoring every time the ball gets up top, rather than us hopelessly beating the ball up to RL and hoping for the best, which always resulted in a giant sigh of dissapointment from the fans, which in turn created more pressure on the players, which then led to them hoofing that ball forward even earlier when they next recieved it.

- As for your last comment... lol. You dont know where our best result of the season took place?

[saintscottofthenortham]

You only have to recall the huge number of threads on this very forum on the 4-5-1/4-4-2 debate to know that this "no plan B" thing is utter codswallop.

 

It's not, because although he did use the 4-4-2, he still played hoofball. Chucking another striker on the pitch isn't a Plan B. It is a small change of formation. A Plan B is when hoofball isn't working, so we will instead adobt a simple passing game where we will try to stretch the opposition by pinging short sharp passes about, creating space for the lads to get into, get the ball under control, take a look and progress. Pardew was only capable of 4-5-1/4-4-2 Hoof it up top. Kelv made a comment on Saints Player, "It's good to know that the manager isn't going to come down on you like a tonne of bricks if that short pass you try to make doesn't come off." He must have been reffering to Wilkins.

[up and away]

Originally Posted by doddisalegend

Puncheon and Lallana are always swopping sides they did it under Pardew too . I don't get where this Pardew had no plan B thing comes from. Plenty of games last season where changed by the introduction of Papa or Antonio or by swopping from 4-3-3 to 4-4-2. It's almost as if people repeat something enough times on here it becomes fact.

You only have to recall the huge number of threads on this very forum on the 4-5-1/4-4-2 debate to know that this "no plan B" thing is utter codswallop.

 

You also have to recall that Pardew only turned to this in desperation. Although it worked extremely well, the sight of Connolley in the second half when going 442, soon saw the end of that.

 

Tactically Pardew was extremely poor, quoting surprise on more than one occasion when teams employed something different against us (Brighton at home, Colchester away when they went with small pacey forwards rather than the normal lumps). The only manager he did get the better of was Paul Ince, but I am not sure I would bother with that on the resume.

 

You will also recall that the introduction of Antonio and Papa was equally hit and miss, as likely to fail as succeed. With the added knowledge that Papa only really worked out when played alongside Lambert, rather than midfield or the wing where he was often positioned.

 

The ability to change the game round was often not there because of the options on the bench. In some cases perfect for converting to 451 from 442, but really not a viable option when you are chasing a game. Often we had a bench capable of changing things round, only for that scenario to never materialise and little impact for the scenario we were finding. We played some excellent football playing 442 with great attacking talent putting in the effort. But we could never sustain that effort if we had to play more than 1 game a week because of the effort required and the fact there was no defensive spine to the team, mainly because the midfield lost it's shape.

 

Pardew without doubt was intelligent in some aspects, totally devoid in others, but I just felt he was a rabbit in the headlights far too often. With his major fault being able to identify the wood from the trees. There is a big difference in Adkins approach, firstly get the team defensively sound, take control of the midfield, subsequently allowing the forwards to do their stuff. You won't get Adkins taking the risk as Pardew did against Brighton, leaving the team totally exposed when Brighton came and gave it a go, rather than expecting to be battering on their goal from minute one.

[doddisalegend]

You also have to recall that Pardew only turned to this in desperation. Although it worked extremely well, the sight of Connolley in the second half when going 442, soon saw the end of that.

 

Tactically Pardew was extremely poor, quoting surprise on more than one occasion when teams employed something different against us (Brighton at home, Colchester away when they went with small pacey forwards rather than the normal lumps). The only manager he did get the better of was Paul Ince, but I am not sure I would bother with that on the resume.

 

You will also recall that the introduction of Antonio and Papa was equally hit and miss, as likely to fail as succeed. With the added knowledge that Papa only really worked out when played alongside Lambert, rather than midfield or the wing where he was often positioned.

 

The ability to change the game round was often not there because of the options on the bench. In some cases perfect for converting to 451 from 442, but really not a viable option when you are chasing a game. Often we had a bench capable of changing things round, only for that scenario to never materialise and little impact for the scenario we were finding. We played some excellent football playing 442 with great attacking talent putting in the effort. But we could never sustain that effort if we had to play more than 1 game a week because of the effort required and the fact there was no defensive spine to the team, mainly because the midfield lost it's shape.

 

Pardew without doubt was intelligent in some aspects, totally devoid in others, but I just felt he was a rabbit in the headlights far too often. With his major fault being able to identify the wood from the trees. There is a big difference in Adkins approach, firstly get the team defensively sound, take control of the midfield, subsequently allowing the forwards to do their stuff. You won't get Adkins taking the risk as Pardew did against Brighton, leaving the team totally exposed when Brighton came and gave it a go, rather than expecting to be battering on their goal from minute one.

 

The point though is not whether plan A, B or Z works but did it exsist. People say Pardew had no plans other the Long ball this is IMO clearly not true, now you can as you have pointed out say that those plans didn't work (a lets face it no manager is full proof) but the claim that Pardew never tried to change anything or try a plan B is false.

 

My personal feelings on this are we won't see the high scoring games we saw under Pardew with Nigel in Charge equally though we will see less of those odd blips we got under Pardew with Nigel. Both managers seem to be effective (and Pardew IMO was effective more often than not last season) just using a different styles.

[Clifford Nelson]

The whole idea that we wouldn't have known how things would have panned out if AP had remained in charge after Bristol is rather far fetched. We know extremely well how he wanted to play football, and the way we played didn't vary from the spring to this autumn. The difference was between doing it successfully or not.

 

He relied entirely on an offensive side who could pummel the opposition into submission. (For those who are interested, this is a view held by me and other back in the spring as well, so it is not a response to his sacking.) It worked during large periods last season, and call me hard to please if you want, but I enjoyed the wins, but not the football. I didn't think that such simplistic power football would bring us back to the PL. I argued that it wasn't an affordable tactic, because it kept relying on that we had better players than the opposition, and whilst we can afford it now, we can't compete in that way in the PL. We were also likely to be found out.

 

Setting the abysmal pre-season to one side, we came out again in the league with the same attitude of hitting them hard and continuously, mainly by balls to Lambert's head, until they surrender. But this time we had indeed been found out, and apart from the result against Bristol, the whole thing was poor and unsuccessful, which made our confidence drop, which made us worse, etc. etc.

 

You might not agree, and think that the style we played was what you wanted to see, and I respect that. But it wasn't different between last season and this one. It is also different from the kind of football that NA is wanting us to play, whether you like it like I do, or not. What really chocks me are the posters who can't see the difference.

[Liquidshokk]

So we're agreed all the change is good?!?! Bring on Huddersfield later today and 3 points!!!! :-D COYS!!!

 

For debate purposes can anything think of anything that's worse as a result of Adkins arrival??

[doddisalegend]

So we're agreed all the change is good?!?! Bring on Huddersfield later today and 3 points!!!! :-D COYS!!!

 

For debate purposes can anything think of anything that's worse as a result of Adkins arrival??

 

Not worse (they've been bad for a long time) but we still don't take very good corners we rarely seem to profit from them, I think Jose scored one goal from a corner this season (can 't think of any others). I hope Nigel might work on some of the players corner delivery (the best corners I've seen this year came from lee Holmes in his little sub apperance) it's kind of poor when players can't even beat the first man or send it right over everyone.

[mikee]

At the end of last season, I was confident that we could win promotion this season but also recognised that Pardew needed to sort out a few weaknesses in the team, such as getting to the byeline and getting crosses in as a way of unlocking packed defences. I was confident that Pardew would address these issues and I hoped that we would move away from the long ball approach over time.

 

The reality was that we seemed to learn nothing over pre-season and seemed content to carry on doing what we did last season but getting a better result due to no points deduction.

 

I know that several players were injured but a manager can't rely on excuses and has to work with what he has got.

 

I had always been a supporter of Pardew but to me it looked like his heart wasn't in it and it wouldn't surprise me if this is what led Cortese to take the action he did.

 

I am enjoying watching Adkins quickly change the style of play to something that we can be proud of as Saints fans and can't wait for each match to come around so from that perspective I am pleased that the change was made even if the timing was a bizzare.

[Scudamore]

The point though is not whether plan A, B or Z works but did it exsist. People say Pardew had no plans other the Long ball this is IMO clearly not true, now you can as you have pointed out say that those plans didn't work (a lets face it no manager is full proof) but the claim that Pardew never tried to change anything or try a plan B is false.

 

My personal feelings on this are we won't see the high scoring games we saw under Pardew with Nigel in Charge equally though we will see less of those odd blips we got under Pardew with Nigel. Both managers seem to be effective (and Pardew IMO was effective more often than not last season) just using a different styles.

 

No manager is full proof but I understand Burley was 100% proof. *ba-boom-tssh*

 

I'm pretty sure we will see the high scoring games under Adkins to be fair. There's too much quality in the squad (despite what some on here would have you believe) for us not to score goals. Last week could easily have been four or five.

 

The whole concept of plan b strikes me as bo|locks quite frankly. Pardew had one. Adkins has one. Every manager has them. Just because Pardew had a liking for a direct style of football doesn't make him tactically inept.

 

I'd still rather watch more of what Adkins served up last week than Pardew's style any day of the week though.

[up and away]

The whole idea that we wouldn't have known how things would have panned out if AP had remained in charge after Bristol is rather far fetched. We know extremely well how he wanted to play football, and the way we played didn't vary from the spring to this autumn. The difference was between doing it successfully or not.

 

He relied entirely on an offensive side who could pummel the opposition into submission. (For those who are interested, this is a view held by me and other back in the spring as well, so it is not a response to his sacking.) It worked during large periods last season, and call me hard to please if you want, but I enjoyed the wins, but not the football. I didn't think that such simplistic power football would bring us back to the PL. I argued that it wasn't an affordable tactic, because it kept relying on that we had better players than the opposition, and whilst we can afford it now, we can't compete in that way in the PL. We were also likely to be found out.

 

Setting the abysmal pre-season to one side, we came out again in the league with the same attitude of hitting them hard and continuously, mainly by balls to Lambert's head, until they surrender. But this time we had indeed been found out, and apart from the result against Bristol, the whole thing was poor and unsuccessful, which made our confidence drop, which made us worse, etc. etc.

 

You might not agree, and think that the style we played was what you wanted to see, and I respect that. But it wasn't different between last season and this one. It is also different from the kind of football that NA is wanting us to play, whether you like it like I do, or not. What really chocks me are the posters who can't see the difference.

 

A really good post which identifies the major points. When I first saw this all out attack style against Pompey in the cup, I said then this will win us games in this league starting with away to Norwich the following Saturday. Bearing in mind we were not on a good run at the time that raised several laughs. But you could also see it was nigh on impossible to be successful on a long term basis, when you were playing more than one game a week, expending that amount of energy and expecting all the players on form. That was Pardew in a nutshell.

 

I won't denegrate any of the exceptional football I saw under Pardew, took my breath away at times. But you always knew it was going against the percentages of what we were trying to achieve, promotion. Putting in one excellent performance when you knew you would be giving points away come midweek was just a dumb philosophy. Like you, I am bemused that some cannot see the vast difference between the two approaches and why I would take Adkins every time.

[SFKA South Woodford]

There is no doubt we were a good side under Hoddle. He was a good manager for us, end of.

 

Yes we got results under Hoddle, but we were not a good side. His brand of football was so dull, we played much better football under WGS and even under Jones on occasion.

 

As for Pardew and a plan b, I agree with others in that there wasn't really one, which is why Lambert was only ever subbed when we had already done enough to win the game or when he had gotten a knock. The only variation was the few times when Antonio dropped deep to get the ball and then just powered his way through the opposition or getting the ball out early for Waigo to use his pace. Losing them and then failling to address that loss, was in my opinion, one of Pardews biggest failings. The others are that he seems not to have listened to or trusted the scouting system he put in place and that he was so slow to act in the transfer market two summers running.

 

The only worry I have about Adkins is that he doesn't seem too worried about the lack of pace in the front players and wide men. I understand that he has faith in Ox and I can see that Ox is going to be one hell of a player soon, but I would still like to see at least one experienced striker with pace added to the squad and ideally before we have played too many more games. It would be great to see Papa back at Saints to give us another option. Still if Do Prado can keep last weeks performance level up for the next few months, he'll be virtually unplayable to the opposition.

[saint lard]

We beat a **** poor Tranmere side.

I remain to be convinced that Adkins is,to many on here,so bloody great.

[Liquidshokk]

We beat a **** poor Tranmere side.

I remain to be convinced that Adkins is,to many on here,so bloody great.

 

Unless something changes in second half today then it will lower peoples opinions of him somewhat. First test imo.

[saint lard]

Unless something changes in second half today then it will lower peoples opinions of him somewhat. First test imo.

Before we had even kicked a ball in anger some were hailing his appointment as a masterstroke

There appeared to be no middle ground with some,the posibility of him not turning out to be the new messiah would not be entered into.

The job he did at Scunny and what lies ahead of him here are worlds apart.

Good luck to him.

[RobM]

Unless something changes in second half today then it will lower peoples opinions of him somewhat. First test imo.

 

Anyone who makes or changes their opinion based on one game alone isn't worth listening to, IMO. How often do you hear of teams going an entire season 100% unbeaten? Of course we're going to lose games, of course we will be out played from time to time, but that doesn't mean we suddenly become a bad team or have a bad manager. That can only be judged over a much longer period. People are too quick to shout and scream.

[Liquidshokk]

Anyone who makes or changes their opinion based on one game alone isn't worth listening to, IMO. How often do you hear of teams going an entire season 100% unbeaten? Of course we're going to lose games, of course we will be out played from time to time, but that doesn't mean we suddenly become a bad team or have a bad manager. That can only be judged over a much longer period. People are too quick to shout and scream.

 

Some will argue that it's not just the result but the actions he has taken in the second half to try and turn things around that will change peoples opinions. Already heard of people mentioning that his subs were too late so be prepared :-)

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Very good point as our previous man was often slated for "late" changes

[Saint Fan CaM]

I see very little change other than passing it out from the back more. That works for teams that are playing 4-5-1 or those with immobile forwards, but for teams like Huddersfield where they close down our players very quickly, this tactic alone is just not good enough. Adkins needs to find an alternative method that perhaps does not involve a hoof. Certainly passing it around ad infinitum between defence and midfield is only going to result in most chances going begging and a clean sheet for the opposition.

[Legod Third Coming]

Meet the new boss, exactly the same as the old boss - possibly a bit worse.

[saint lard]

Meet the new boss, exactly the same as the old boss - possibly a bit worse.

 

These were my sentiments the moment he was installed.

Hope he proves me wrong,but until such times, i will be consistant with my stance of remaining 'underwhelmed'

 

I can still see Adkins being shown the door sooner rather than later.

Edited 17 October, 2010 by saint lard

[Legod Third Coming]

These were my sentiments the moment he was installed.

Hope he proves me wrong,but until such times, i will be consistant with my stance of remaining 'underwhelmed'

 

I can still see Adkins being shown the door sooner rather than later.

 

I really hope you are wrong (obviously, as you do) but I have a huge fear that he cannot or will not be able to cope with the pressure. At Scunny there were no expectations. Here the expectation is (rightly) sky high. You cannot invest millions in a playing squad in League One and not dominate the league. The players and resources are in place now. Results must follow and quickly otherwise you are right, Adkins will be out and the process will start again...

 

I felt we needed a manager used to managing a big club with high expectations - one that could have been encouraged here by finance, if nothing else. Not a 'big name' for the sake of it, but someone used to having immense wealth behind them pushing and pressuring them.

 

Adkins may be able to grow and become this man, but people must stop asking for him to be given time. It's the one thing our Chairman will NOT give him, so for us to espouse the 'wait and see' approach is simply setting him up to fail. It's a shame more people cannot see this, rather than simply believing that expecting results now is some sort of short-term whim...

[Topcat]

It was only a loss away. But it was to a rival. That said Adkins needs to win 2 out of every 3 remaining games, draw 25% and only lose 3 more to be in the automatic promotion slots with 88 points. If its the average 84 points (last 5 seasons) then we could afford to lose 4.

 

It looks like a tall order and is a higher set of targets than when he started. Any slump or a month of draws could finish his season off unless he sneaks through the playoffs.

[RobM]

Pressure will only come into it is NA if failing to achieve what NC has set out as his requirements. We know NA can motivate, he has demonstrated he is willing to make changes where required and he has shown decent tactical awareness so far. Being a physio, he will know the importance of physical conditioning and fitness and his sport science and psychology background will all add to his chances of success.

 

If this all comes together and works, we will win more than we lose (we WILL lose games!) and success will come. If that happens, there will be much less pressure.

 

If it doesn't happen and we don't achieve promotion and a steady rise up the leagues, it wont matter how well he deals with pressure as he will already be failing. In this situation, his job is at risk regardless.

[Legod Third Coming]

Pressure will only come into it is NA if failing to achieve what NC has set out as his requirements. We know NA can motivate, he has demonstrated he is willing to make changes where required and he has shown decent tactical awareness so far. Being a physio, he will know the importance of physical conditioning and fitness and his sport science and psychology background will all add to his chances of success.

 

If this all comes together and works, we will win more than we lose (we WILL lose games!) and success will come. If that happens, there will be much less pressure.

 

If it doesn't happen and we don't achieve promotion and a steady rise up the leagues, it wont matter how well he deals with pressure as he will already be failing. In this situation, his job is at risk regardless.

 

The challenge is that NC has undoubtedly given Adkins a target of promotion. What does that mean week to week?

Currently we are three points above relegation with a shoddy goal difference by comparison to those who are really competing.

I have no idea what Cortese might have in mind for 'milestones' but given his decision to fire Pardew, I imagine he doesn't accept the losses lightly... regardless of who beats us.

 

So the pressure is there now, and in spades. And in a way, rightly so. If you had spent the kind of money Cortese encouraged Markus to spend, you would expect a very quick return too, I'm sure.

 

Does this look like a team who are nailed on for promotion, might squeak promotion, will probably not be promoted? I don't know. But pretty soon it needs to look like the former or the Chairman will have his finger poised on the trigger, that much seems obvious. This is nothing to do with my view (which is always that managers need to build a team/club), this is the reality of the situation the Chairman has created.

[Whitey Grandad]

'Might squeak promotion' is my current thinking. I reckon we're still short of two or three players.

[John B]

The challenge is that NC has undoubtedly given Adkins a target of promotion. What does that mean week to week?

Currently we are three points above relegation with a shoddy goal difference by comparison to those who are really competing.

I have no idea what Cortese might have in mind for 'milestones' but given his decision to fire Pardew, I imagine he doesn't accept the losses lightly... regardless of who beats us.

 

So the pressure is there now, and in spades. And in a way, rightly so. If you had spent the kind of money Cortese encouraged Markus to spend, you would expect a very quick return too, I'm sure.

 

Does this look like a team who are nailed on for promotion, might squeak promotion, will probably not be promoted? I don't know. But pretty soon it needs to look like the former or the Chairman will have his finger poised on the trigger, that much seems obvious. This is nothing to do with my view (which is always that managers need to build a team/club), this is the reality of the situation the Chairman has created.

 

At the moment promotion is unlikely but of course that could change - the last few games have been OK but not outstanding

[sadoldgit]

I really hope you are wrong (obviously, as you do) but I have a huge fear that he cannot or will not be able to cope with the pressure. At Scunny there were no expectations. Here the expectation is (rightly) sky high. You cannot invest millions in a playing squad in League One and not dominate the league. The players and resources are in place now. Results must follow and quickly otherwise you are right, Adkins will be out and the process will start again...

 

I felt we needed a manager used to managing a big club with high expectations - one that could have been encouraged here by finance, if nothing else. Not a 'big name' for the sake of it, but someone used to having immense wealth behind them pushing and pressuring them.

 

Adkins may be able to grow and become this man, but people must stop asking for him to be given time. It's the one thing our Chairman will NOT give him, so for us to espouse the 'wait and see' approach is simply setting him up to fail. It's a shame more people cannot see this, rather than simply believing that expecting results now is some sort of short-term whim...

 

I agree that time is one thing Cortese will not give Adkins, but if Adkins does not deliver does that mean another manager in before the end of the season?