Another false dawn?

[Foxstone]

I don't always (or very often) agree with Hypochondriac but I can't for the life of me see how his post you quoted can be called hysterical.

Don't you think that's why this forum is in decline, that people slate a post because of who the poster is, not because of what was actually said?

At this rate there will be 5 of you left, repeating the same point of view ad nauseam.

 

Maybe it was'nt hystericial but it was crude, rude and offensive.

 

Perhaps if he chose to raise his argument in a more grown up and constructive manner, then it would not be such a red rag to a bull for many of us.

[Topcat]

Quite simply 50-60% wins is good in a normal context; with the expectations and money thrown at Pardew last season 70%+ was the aim.

60% was possible but not 70%. A 55% League win ratio would have been enough for automatic promotion this season with 12 draws.

 

Eh? I must have missed that. I was fairly sure no reason has been given. Hense why we are still actively debating the reason for the departure... Anyhow, if you are right, then why the silence from AP? He would have nothing to hide.

Just read the Press statement.

.....it is essential to make changes to the First Team management and coaching. These targets for sustained and significant progress embrace both the First Team and the Football Development & Support Centre as integrated, co-operative units. Consequently, the First Team Manager, Alan Pardew; First Team Coach, Wally Downes; and Goalkeeping Coach, Stuart Murdoch have been relieved of their duties

 

The only justification listed as the reason for dismissal is the need to have "co-operative units" between the First Team and Les Reed's department.

[up and away]

It has been a grim start to this years campaign. For what reasons is always open to debate. Was money available to strengthen, did Pardew lose interest, were the team less fit than last season, have the pre and early season injuries hit us harder that then should, is it the loss of pace? Probably a combination of all.

 

I would like to think that with a little time Adkins will get us back to what we were expecting this season and even if automatic promotion fades away I see us being one of the playoff teams and by then a force to be reckoned with. If so we will be back on track with the much vaunted business plan.

 

What are the alternatives for SFC if the Liebherr family sell up? I shudder to think but you can bet we would soon be a club in debt (new owner borrowing against the stadium and facilities) and very little money for players.

 

This is the Liebherr money and I am sure they appreciate they are custodians of the club and have not forgotten the supporters but are trying to establish a decent and balanced business model at a time when football finances is this country are a complete mess. It takes time, there will be issues along the way but we have to give them our support just as many supporters blindly support the club may be we should give Nicola Cortese a bit of space. We are only starting year two of five (or four as some suggest)

 

A lot of sense there. Looking rationally at the situation, the prospects under Markus were more than any team in the lower leagues could ever dream of. At present Liebherr's family have extended that dream, with the slight concern that it was not their original vision. Even so, you would have a queue of lower league fans stretching along the motorways across England wanting to exchange their right arm for what we are left with. We are still so lucky, undeservedly so when I see the graciousness of some fans.

 

I am not sure whether Pardew was right or wrong to hold out for that special player/s that definitely will make the difference. From his robust defence of this policy in the media, I am pretty sure it was his own position. One thing I am sure Pardew knew, was that his team had a weakness in not being able to produce consistently and I don't believe he knew the answer, otherwise he would have been targeting specific areas. It appeared that just getting sufficient quality players on the pitch looked his main target, something you cannot really argue with if the quality was sufficient.

 

When things go wrong for us it is usually because the central midfield goes AWOL. A consistent fault that Pardew never understood fully or tried to effectively correct. I don't expect Adkins to make the same mistake. In appointing Adkins, Cortese definitely left me believing he is dealing with the direct problem in hand, getting out of League 1. Once that is accomplished, we then address the CCC!

[Wade Garrett]

I don't always (or very often) agree with Hypochondriac but I can't for the life of me see how his post you quoted can be called hysterical.

Don't you think that's why this forum is in decline, that people slate a post because of who the poster is, not because of what was actually said?

At this rate there will be 5 of you left, repeating the same point of view ad nauseam.

 

I haven't got a clue who anyone who posts on here is. I was reacting to the hysteria created by a few people who think they are important and think they have an inside track into the intricate dealings of the club. They haven't. They knew bugger all about who the new manager was going to be, and know nothing about the club being for sale. I accept they are posting in good faith, but too many people are taking what they posted (and to be fair to them they are only posting what they heard) as fact and now we get posts like 'i hope they sell and f*ck off' anf hypo agreeing with it.

 

I never slated anyone personally, and don't like being preached to. I've paid my fiver, and outside of insulting anyone, I'll say what I like.

[hypochondriac]

Hysterical rantings based on a few whispers from people on here who like to feel important.

 

How about a little respect for an opinion which differs from your own.

[Rebel]

The point most people seem to be missing is that the money had 'dried up' before Markus passed away. Last Summer and last Janaury window we spent large amounts to bring in the likes of Lambert, Fonte, Barnard, etc and it seemed obvious that ML was funding us to run at a loss in order to gain promotion.

 

However, something had definately changed by the end of the season. We let go a HUGE amount of players who were out of contract (which is the reason why we are now forced to name Pulis on the bench), failed to re-new the loans or transfer Papa or Antonio and only brought in 3 full-backs only onw of whom comanded a transfer fee.

 

It's nothing to do with money being held in probate or things like that, the question that needs to be asked is what is the reason for this change? It can only be one of two things, either Markus (and now his family) decided to put no more money into the club and it would have to generate it's own money to spend, or that Cortese is being pig headed and trying to acheive his goals without having to go cap in hand to Markus (or now the Liebherr's) and ask for handouts.

 

Perhaps the money 'dried up' when Markus Liebherr became ill - as his and everyone else's attention was elsewhere. I expect there is money still there - but less than before - and probably a much revised 5 year plan now as well!

 

Like most fans I was expecting the team to be strengthened in the Summer - to me it seems pointless to spend £3M or £4M last season if your not going to spend the £2M or £3M this season needed to guarantee promotion.

 

But perhaps the issue with Pardew got in the way. We will really only know if the money is still there or not once the Jnauary transfer window has come and gone. Although I would expect Adkins to strengthen the team in the Loan Window before the end of November - at least with a striker and a central midfielder. And at the moment I don't understand why we haven't done so.

 

But perhaps Saints are working to a strict budget now and players will have to be sold before we can buy - to raise transfer funds and free up space on the wage bill.

[Joensuu]

60% was possible but not 70%. A 55% League win ratio would have been enough for automatic promotion this season with 12 draws.

Sorry, you've lost me here, why was it not possible for the Saints to win 70% of last seasons games? Didn't Mourinho acheive it with Chelsea? Isn't Capello currently achieving it with England? Why is it not possible?

 

Also, are you seriously arguing that the win-ratio should not be contextulised? You certainly seem to be. Pardew's win ratio looks good on paper, but needs to be put into the context of being in League one with massive resources to hand. If you look purely at win ratios you get some rather strange results, for example, do you realise that Steve McClaren has a better win ratio with England than Sir Bobby achieved? Does that make McClaren the better manager? Are you seriously arguing that Pardew is a better manager than Ted, Lawrie, or Gordon, simply because his win ratio is better?

 

Just read the Press statement

 

The only justification listed as the reason for dismissal is the need to have "co-operative units" between the First Team and Les Reed's department.

 

I have just re-read it. This doesn't back up your claim that "the Club stated that he was dismissed to improve co-operation with Les Reed's department". There is no suggestion in the press statement that Pardew's departure had anything to do with either co-operation or Reed. In fact the only suggestion which might be drawn from the press statement is that Pardew was relieved of his duties for underperformance of the club as a whole. So much for your statement that "Those are facts stated on the record."

[JustMike]

How about a little respect for an opinion which differs from your own.

 

pot..kettle!

[hypochondriac]

Valid? How can telling our owner and CEO to get lost, in a rather crude and unsavory manner be 'valid'?

 

Because some people are extremely annoyed at how Cortese operates and though I believe f*ck off is too strong, I can understand why people wouldn't be too sad to see him go. Owners come and go and in the financial state we are now in, there is no reason why we cannot attract decent and professional owners who don't do the sort of things like Cortese which get mine and others backs up. Failing this, I am hopeful that Cortese will change. We shall see.

 

If this poster is genuinely annoyed with the current management of the business, why don't they air their concerns, and use evidence to substantiate their argument? Oh, yeah, that's right, what evidence? Do you mean to say that screaming irrationally, without evidence to support your view is now 'valid'?

 

So I suppose you haven't seen the endless topics where the huge number of issues people have with Cortese have been aired and debated?

 

So you 'feel in a similar way' to someone who is telling them to 'f**k off', but still trust the Liebherr family to make a sensible choice over who they are going to sell to. So you dislike them (without reason), but trust them to make sensible business decisions? In which case, why not let them run the club?

 

I said a similar way but clearly not as strong. I apologise if I did not make myself clearer. I have no problem with the Liebherr family, I'm just not sure how prepared they will be to back us and I'm not sure how successful the club will be longer term now that Markus has died.

 

Oh, and of course you could roll some dice again and bring in a new owner. However I think you'd need to roll 3 sixes to improve upon the Liebherr's: rich, private, respected, stabilising (what's not to like?).

 

(Oh and to head off the lack of spending over the summer nonsense, we spent almost 3/4 of a million, did any other team in our division better that? Why Pardew blew his budget on fullbacks, only he can answer. And the offloaded players, is anyone seriously arguing that these weren't, to the man, deadwood?)

 

As we already know, signings are decided by committee so not sure you can blame the full back scenario on Pardew alone. And no, Waigo and Antonio were anything but deadwood. We badly miss them both. Once again, I have no problem with the Liebherr family owning us. I will question their level of support, I imagine with the money we made last year that we could easily afford the money spent in the summer without running at a loss. Additionally, the presence of Liebherr means the continued presence of Cortese which IMO means that there is very possibly better alternatives out there which will run SFC on similar lines but with a more fan focused approach and less about exploitation and trying to screw as much money as possible out of us. That is my hope.

 

I agree, I find this opinion offensive. I consider it a direct attempt to undermine my club. Of course I find it offensive.

 

What are you on about? How can airing a valid opinion (for the reasons I describe above) on a messageboard a direct attempt to undermine anything? What desire to I have to undermine the club? I would like nothing better than to see success under Cortese but I would also dearly love him to change some of his ideas and initiatives. I think as well as good, he has done a lot of bad to the image of SFC amongst many groups.

 

But, please note, despite the irrational and unevinced nature of the post we are both responding to, despite it being an attempt to set Southampton FC back years, you will see no abuse or idiot calling from me.

 

An attempt to set SFC back years? I can't see it. It is entirely possible that we can attract buyers who are focused and interested in SFC (which if we are honest we cannot say for sure about the Liebherr family.) It isn't necessarily the doomsday scenario that many paint. Thanks for no abuse though.

[Andy_Porter]

My god some people on here are football thickos, no wonder this place has gone to pot recently.

[hypochondriac]

pot..kettle!

 

Really? Care to post an example where I have insulted someone because their opinion differs from mine?

[Topcat]

I have just re-read it. This doesn't back up your claim that "the Club stated that he was dismissed to improve co-operation with Les Reed's department". There is no suggestion in the press statement that Pardew's departure had anything to do with either co-operation or Reed. In fact the only suggestion which might be drawn from the press statement is that Pardew was relieved of his duties for underperformance of the club as a whole. So much for your statement that "Those are facts stated on the record."

 

This is what the Club stated.

.....it is essential to make changes to the First Team management and coaching. These targets for sustained and significant progress embrace both the First Team and the Football Development & Support Centre as integrated, co-operative units. Consequently, the First Team Manager, Alan Pardew; First Team Coach, Wally Downes; and Goalkeeping Coach, Stuart Murdoch have been relieved of their duties

Now since "the Football Development & Support Centre " is Les Reed's department, the crux of the justification was to improve co-operation between the First Team and Les Reed's Dept.

 

As to underperformance, there is nothing in the statement saying that it was down to underperformance. Indeed the Echo stated that they were briefed from Cortese's people that the dismissal was not to do with performance. A Manager with one of the best win ratio's in 125 years at the Club, also has a very strong case for being a high performer.

[Joensuu]

(Hypo, I've given up with the quoting. Response to your response in blue).

 

Valid? How can telling our owner and CEO to get lost, in a rather crude and unsavory manner be 'valid'?

 

Because some people are extremely annoyed at how Cortese operates and though I believe f*ck off is too strong, I can understand why people wouldn't be too sad to see him go. Owners come and go and in the financial state we are now in, there is no reason why we cannot attract decent and professional owners who don't do the sort of things like Cortese which get mine and others backs up. Failing this, I am hopeful that Cortese will change. We shall see.

 

And I say to these people that they haven't met Cortese, and are largely getting annoyed at a cartoon version of Cortese which has been created through rumour. I also argue that there are plenty of the 'old guard' who have reason to spead these rumours. Anyone slating him, is IMO, jumping to conclusions without seeing evidence.

 

However, the people who have met Cortese, seem consistently to talk of his ambition, and honesty.

 

We already have 'decent and professional owners', why would you want them to be changed?

 

 

If this poster is genuinely annoyed with the current management of the business, why don't they air their concerns, and use evidence to substantiate their argument? Oh, yeah, that's right, what evidence? Do you mean to say that screaming irrationally, without evidence to support your view is now 'valid'?

 

So I suppose you haven't seen the endless topics where the huge number of issues people have with Cortese have been aired and debated?

 

Indeed I have. Thankfully they have largely stopped when a certain Romsey-based poster was banned. One or two people stirring up trouble without evidence, does not substantiate anything.

 

 

So you 'feel in a similar way' to someone who is telling them to 'f**k off', but still trust the Liebherr family to make a sensible choice over who they are going to sell to. So you dislike them (without reason), but trust them to make sensible business decisions? In which case, why not let them run the club?

 

I said a similar way but clearly not as strong. I apologise if I did not make myself clearer. I have no problem with the Liebherr family, I'm just not sure how prepared they will be to back us and I'm not sure how successful the club will be longer term now that Markus has died.

 

Nobody is sure. But even in the worst case scenario (i.e. the don't put a single further penny into the club), we would still be in the best financial position in League One, and stronger than almost any team bar QPR in the Championship.

 

Oh, and of course you could roll some dice again and bring in a new owner. However I think you'd need to roll 3 sixes to improve upon the Liebherr's: rich, private, respected, stabilising (what's not to like?).

 

(Oh and to head off the lack of spending over the summer nonsense, we spent almost 3/4 of a million, did any other team in our division better that? Why Pardew blew his budget on fullbacks, only he can answer. And the offloaded players, is anyone seriously arguing that these weren't, to the man, deadwood?)

 

As we already know, signings are decided by committee so not sure you can blame the full back scenario on Pardew alone. And no, Waigo and Antonio were anything but deadwood. We badly miss them both. Once again, I have no problem with the Liebherr family owning us. I will question their level of support, I imagine with the money we made last year that we could easily afford the money spent in the summer without running at a loss. Additionally, the presence of Liebherr means the continued presence of Cortese which IMO means that there is very possibly better alternatives out there which will run SFC on similar lines but with a more fan focused approach and less about exploitation and trying to screw as much money as possible out of us. That is my hope.

 

Agree, I didn't mean to include loanees into my 'deadwood' statement. I was talking about the terminated contracts. I still argue that the committee should have purchased pace up front, the fact that they didn't certainly cant' be pinned on Cortese or Markus.

 

I also agree that the money spent in the summer could easily have been from our own pockets. Which still means that Leibherr, having written off our debts, allowed us to spend more than anyone else in our league.

 

I diagree with your logic though. Basically you are saying, that because the Leibherr's comes with Cortese attached. An because some people have been throwing mud at Cortese all summer to try and get some to stick. That therefore we might be better off without the financial stability offered by the current owners. Might I point out that this is the first time in our 125 years that we have had financial stability. Might I also point out that you could count on a single hand the number of other teams who have such financial stability (err, QPR, Chelsea, Man City and, err... virtually everyone else is in massive debt, or living hand to mouth). I conclude that your "very possibly better alernatives" are a long shot at best. Remove the Leibherr's, and must be a greater than 90% chance that our position will worsen.

 

I agree, I find this opinion offensive. I consider it a direct attempt to undermine my club. Of course I find it offensive.

 

What are you on about? How can airing a valid opinion (for the reasons I describe above) on a messageboard a direct attempt to undermine anything? What desire to I have to undermine the club? I would like nothing better than to see success under Cortese but I would also dearly love him to change some of his ideas and initiatives. I think as well as good, he has done a lot of bad to the image of SFC amongst many groups.

 

I do like your optimism. It's like holding 4 Kings in poker, but trading them on the off chance you can get 4 Aces. Sure, it might happen, but don't you think it might be a little wreckless to try?

 

As such, I strongly believe anyone attacking the Leibherrs, or Cortese, without evidence, is essentially attacking the future stability of the club. Sure, if the Leibherrs or Cortese have messed up, I'd understand it, but without evidence it seems unjustifiable to me. Sure you might be right, our sitution might improve if we undermine the Leibherrs or Cortese, but, IMO, if you think that, you might as well stake your house on the Grand National. An attack on the current owners, is IMO, and attack on the best future the club can hope for.

 

I recognise that Cortese seems to have had a negative impact on the image of SFC. I would argue that much of this has been despite his actions, and much of it has been mud thats stuck. Even where it has been his mistake (cf Photographer ban), Cortese has shown himself to be willing to reverse his decision when it is wrong. Hardly the 'dictator' some on here have depicted.

 

 

But, please note, despite the irrational and unevinced nature of the post we are both responding to, despite it being an attempt to set Southampton FC back years, you will see no abuse or idiot calling from me.

 

An attempt to set SFC back years? I can't see it. It is entirely possible that we can attract buyers who are focused and interested in SFC (which if we are honest we cannot say for sure about the Liebherr family.) It isn't necessarily the doomsday scenario that many paint. Thanks for no abuse though.

 

It is indeed 'entirely possible'. So is winning the lottery. It isn't 'necessarity' a doomsday scenario: it's just a massive gamble, with small odds of success, and a huge amount to lose.

[Frank's cousin]

Hypo

 

Thing with owners is you never know what you are going to get, and its to easy to think we would be 'attractive' to a variety of potential owners 'who would not do what Cortese does'

 

Being realist, if we were up for sale, what kind of owner do you tyhink we would get? I would guess we might get a consortium of local businessmen, who between them dont really have a pot to **** in, borrow against the club to raise the purchase price and because they have a ego driven approach - eg are doing iot to 'save the club' and for Kudos of being involved, end up trying too hard to please fans and spending money in hope rather than in wisdom....hang on, we have been there before (with the exception of the borrowing to buythe club)...

 

Its extremely unlikely we would get owners like the Liebherrs again, we were v lucky. The flip side is that with owners who are naturally cautious, who understand the potential money pit that is football...but also want to ensiure the club is sustainable as a business without the constant need for extra cash or loans to finance progress, there always be a need for a sterner and more business centric approach to the the operating decisons, including transfers and contracts to ensure that stabilty is not undermined.

 

It may not fit the traditional 'values' and expectations of supporters, but remember these values and traditions were established in a time before the current financial hideousness of football - even up to a time when a small provincial club could sign the twice European footballer of the year, without breaking the bank and within its normal balance sheet...

 

So its no wonder that many find the business model and strategy and decisons taken at clubs that DO follow a strict fiscal policy difficult to digest. But look at the clubs where you see fans greedily enjoying their transfer coups, and glut of talent, that are not stupidly backed as teh billionnaires toy, and show me one that is not in debt or skating with the thin ice of relegation..

 

Sure there is room for compromise, or a balance, but why are fans so unwilling to accept that just because mistakes are possibly made, or decsions which we find at odds with our own perceptions of 'how things should be', that this means the man in charge is somehow wrong? If you take the emotions out of it, and look at it logically, I cant see what Cortese is doing that is so unexpected, or irrational. Sure I can see why it might sit uneasily with some, but as we have seen in the past, teh alternatives are far from ideal, and I would suggest a lot worse.

[aintforever]

I don't think any of us actually know Cortese's business plan.

 

If it is "get to the Prem in 3/5 years" it cannot also be " a fiscal approach living within our means" - unless we are very lucky, and being very lucky should not form part of a business plan.

 

If we live within our means it would probably be at least 10-15 years before we are likely to be a Prem club. if we are unlucky it could be 20-30 years or longer or never. The ONLY way to have a realistic chance of getting to the prem in 3/5 years is to chuck lots and lots of money at it.

[trousers]

Dismissing a fact that states that the record of Pardew with "one of the highest win ratios in our Club's 125 yr history" .... is the real insult to intelligence.

 

Depends if one compares apples to apples or apples to oranges.

 

Some might argue that comparing win ratios in the third tier of English football (with some of the best resources and facilities in the dvision) with win ratios in the first and second tiers of English Football (where the resources and facilities were, comparably, on a less favourable footing) is not comparing like-for-like.

[Joensuu]

TC, you don't seem to be reading the same statement as me.

 

Following a review of the current status in and around the First Team, the Club has decided that, to achieve its well known targets, it is essential to make changes to the First Team management and coaching.[/Quote]

 

... all this means is, the club have reviewed the 'status' of the First Team, and decided that they are unlikely to achieve the clubs 'targets'. Therefore it is 'essential' to make changes to the mangement...

 

These targets for sustained and significant progress embrace both the First Team and the Football Development & Support Centre as integrated, co-operative units.[/Quote]

 

... this bit says that, the clubs targets are to keep making significant improvements both with the first team and with the academy and in the back office, and to make sure that all these units work well together.... (NB, nothing pinning the departure on Pardew not communicating well with Reed).

 

Consequently, the First Team Manager, Alan Pardew; First Team Coach, Wally Downes; and Goalkeeping Coach, Stuart Murdoch have been relieved of their duties with immediate effect. The Club wishes them well for the future.[/Quote]

 

... and this bit tells us what changes are being made to the mangement.

 

So the statement could be paraphrased as "We have ambitious targets through all elements of the club. We can't see how our current managment will meet these targets. Therefore we are making management changes".

 

Where is there anything in the statement that has led you to jump to the conclusion that "The Club stated that he was dismissed to improve co-operation with Les Reed's department. Those are facts stated on the record."? No, you have had to twist and contort the press statement to reach this conclusion.

 

As to underperformance, there is nothing in the statement saying that it was down to underperformance. Indeed the Echo stated that they were briefed from Cortese's people that the dismissal was not to do with performance. A Manager with one of the best win ratio's in 125 years at the Club, also has a very strong case for being a high performer.

 

Sorry, but the statement, while strangely worded, can only be interepreted as meaning that the management needed to be changed to help meet the ambitious targets the owners have set for the club. I guess this isn't the same as underperformance, more, predicted future underperformance.

 

Again, I must have missed the bit where Cortese's people briefed the Echo.

 

Goodness, please don't start the win-ratio stuff again. I give up, you're right, Pardew was obviously the best manager we have ever, ever had. The win ratio proves it. All hail Alan.

[Joensuu]

Depends if one compares apples to apples or apples to oranges.

 

Some might argue that comparing win ratios in the third tier of English football (with some of the best resources and facilities in the dvision) with win ratios in the first and second tiers of English Football (where the resources and facilities were, comparably, on a less favourable footing) is not comparing like-for-like.

 

Exactly. Lets compare Pardews 54% with another manager in the same division with similar resources. The only example I can think of is Kevin Keegan in 98/99. His record of 38 wins in 61 games (62.3%) should provide a fair benchmark for Pardew's success.

[John Smith]

football is a business.

 

These people bought us on the cheap if they sell it ehey will make their money back

 

i hope they sell and f**k off..

look at afc wimbledon.....you cannot buy the soul of a club.

 

bye bye cortese....

 

Interesting stance. FWIW, I generally agreed with you that Ap needed time at the beginning of the season. Why keep him here if to only sack him 4 games in, didn't make sense? And because of the NDA's OR the unwillingness to communicate (Cortese & Pardew equally), us fans are left scatching our heads and wondering WTF!

 

Basically, the fans are divided (on here anyway), between AP must have done something to deserve being sacked and it's a good job he went as he was the reason we were not performing, whereas others believe that Cortese is a power crazed fool that sacks people on a whim and employee's avoid him like the plague.

 

I think this is a fair split. BUT, I also think we have to seperate our feelings of Cortese from our understanding of the Liebherr family. Yes, business is business, but our owners have lost their husband/father and family member, I think telling them to f**k off is very much OTT. You are clearly confusing your dislike for Cortese with your dislike for someone who has been laid to rest and his remaining family members that didn't want this club for themselves anyway.

 

Also, I don;t think it's about profit. I believe the club was originally an investment. We all knew Saints were an opportunity with someone with enough money. Cortese convinced Liebherr that he was the man to take that opportunity. And let's face it, this time last year, we nearly (laughably) had that other mob in charge of us but, they failed and Liebherr picked up the chalice and carried us forward.

 

A year on, let's not tell them to F**k off, that's not right. For all Cortese's failings, communication being one of them, I think some on here have missed the whole point of this business. It was to be self sustaining. We weren't promised millions of investment. We believed that come January last season, if we were in with a shout of promotion, funds would be made available. Opinion was split, would we challenge for a play-off spot or not? AP believed we would, NC convinced ML to release the purse strings, high profile players were brought in, BUT we failed, fell short. Can we blame AP? I think so. Can we blame the players? Probably. Can we blame NC or ML? I don;t think so, they delivered where his manager and team did not.

 

So, this summer, I thought we all knew there would be no BIG signings and a massive influx of players. We resorted to plan A, self sustaining. This is why it has gauled me when I hear people demanding this player or this amount of money or cry when there is a £3 surcharge or the installment plan that was abused by us, was taken away. This is what happens when you are wanting to become self sustaining, particularly in the economic situation we are ALL in. And, the players we had on the opening day of the season, were not being questioned. The training was, the pre-season friendlies were, but not the ability of these players. As it has turned out, many of these players have underperformed AND Liebherr passed away, very sadly, AND AP was let go (like I said, who knows why). So why oh why oh why, do Liebherr's family deserve, or have offended you so much whereby you feel that, through your angst I'm guessing, you can disrespect them so. In other words, what did they do to you? And don;t say Cortese, that was ML and he is not here to defend himself or his actions or his decisions.

 

If you are upset with Cortese, then so be it, FWIW I think you shouldn't be. If you are upset that AP has gone, then so be it, but again, FWIW, looking forward, maybe NA is the man for us in this period of our history, but only time will tell. But, don;t get agro with the Liebherr family. ML passing was not planned, it wasn't a slight against you or any other fan, and I'm sure they didn;t want this to happen.

 

So, where does this leave us. IMO, it leaves us exactly where we were at the end of last season, just missing our. The circumstances have changes, some of the personnle has changed, but, we have lucked out 'again'. But, I believe, rather than all pointing fingers, sla**ing off Cortese, bad mouthing the Liebherrs, demanding money, stamping our feet for loanee's, criticising the back room staff, airing personal stories on here to cause unwanted conjecture, I believe, we need to club together. For good or for bad, this season, we need to become a club again. Cortese is trying to make this so, the staff are working hard to achieve this, the Liebherrs have not pulled the plug and the position we are in is where we deserve to be.

 

So, what this club needs right now, is not for anyone to F**k Off, BUT, for EVERYONE to pull together and move forward, that includes the players AND the fans. This includes you, this includes me. And the more 'stories' that I hear on this website about Cortese this and Cortese that, reminds me just how far people will go t o advance their own agenda rather than joining forces for the GOOD OF THIS CLUB, burying that agenda and supporting Saints. Let's review this again next year. We are in League 1, we are in season 2 of NC's reign, he just lost his friend and mentor, let's just give the guy a chance. If he messes up, let's 'help' him put them right, let's be positive not negative, let's be fans.

[Frank's cousin]

I don't think any of us actually know Cortese's business plan.

 

If it is "get to the Prem in 3/5 years" it cannot also be " a fiscal approach living within our means" - unless we are very lucky, and being very lucky should not form part of a business plan.

 

If we live within our means it would probably be at least 10-15 years before we are likely to be a Prem club. if we are unlucky it could be 20-30 years or longer or never. The ONLY way to have a realistic chance of getting to the prem in 3/5 years is to chuck lots and lots of money at it.

 

Yes and you could argue that chucking 3-4 mil at it last year, which is a huge amount for L1, was doing just that, without success. Ok we had the disadvantgae of -10 points but even then the impact of that spend should still be seen now... our poor form is probably down to many things, Lallana injured, fitness issues, the loss of waigo and Antonio, and some sort of general malaise - I think the importance of players probably being sucked into the 'walk this league' mentality has also had an effect, and feet need to be firmly planted on the ground.

 

Clubs have shown that with the right attitude, work ethic, and collective spirit, alot cvan be achieved. Add to that the spend we have already seen last year and we should be capable of getting out of thi league, without massive spending.

 

I really feel that this atttitude that many fans have towards success, that we should buy it because we can, (and i am not saying you believe that) is pretty crap. Its the same principle as players who want short cuts to success by simply upping sticks the moment a more successful club comes calling, rather than working hard with the current side to win things on their own merit. Its symptomatic of the 'want it now, pay later' culture.

 

BUt its also true when clubs talk about waht their fans really want. If we had enough fans determined to see us progress rapidly, we would sell out each week and enjoy the financial advantage that brings to the club - but what seems to happen is that the fans want the club to spend first, get success and THEN they will come and fill the ground. Its this attitude that keeps so many clubs in permanent mid table.... or with very slow progress. If we sell out each game we would probably have in teh region of an additional 2-3 mil a year for players in this league. Why do we expect the clud to spend this first?

[aintforever]

Yes and you could argue that chucking 3-4 mil at it last year, which is a huge amount for L1, was doing just that, without success. Ok we had the disadvantgae of -10 points but even then the impact of that spend should still be seen now... our poor form is probably down to many things, Lallana injured, fitness issues, the loss of waigo and Antonio, and some sort of general malaise - I think the importance of players probably being sucked into the 'walk this league' mentality has also had an effect, and feet need to be firmly planted on the ground.

 

Clubs have shown that with the right attitude, work ethic, and collective spirit, alot cvan be achieved. Add to that the spend we have already seen last year and we should be capable of getting out of thi league, without massive spending.

 

I really feel that this atttitude that many fans have towards success, that we should buy it because we can, (and i am not saying you believe that) is pretty crap. Its the same principle as players who want short cuts to success by simply upping sticks the moment a more successful club comes calling, rather than working hard with the current side to win things on their own merit. Its symptomatic of the 'want it now, pay later' culture.

 

BUt its also true when clubs talk about waht their fans really want. If we had enough fans determined to see us progress rapidly, we would sell out each week and enjoy the financial advantage that brings to the club - but what seems to happen is that the fans want the club to spend first, get success and THEN they will come and fill the ground. Its this attitude that keeps so many clubs in permanent mid table.... or with very slow progress. If we sell out each game we would probably have in teh region of an additional 2-3 mil a year for players in this league. Why do we expect the clud to spend this first?

 

Better football = more fans, it's the same for every club in the land.

 

My point is that IF there is a plan to get in the Prem in 3/5 years time, the ONLY way it can be realistically achieved is by massive spending.

 

If you have a long term plan it's not necessary, or if you want to get to the Championship it's not, but living within your means doesn't get you storming through the Championship against bigger teams with £30mill parachutes to blow.

Edited 24 September, 2010 by aintforever

[Wade Garrett]

How about a little respect for an opinion which differs from your own.

 

I haven't insulted anyone. Hysteria has been created by a rumour, and you seem to think it's OK for someone to say to the family that saved the club from extinction to f*ck off and sell.

 

I have little respect for your opinion.

Edited 24 September, 2010 by Wade Garrett

[Wes Tender]

Originally Posted by Wes Tender

Most Saints fans are intelligent enough to think beyond those figures and dismiss them for what they are, but perhaps you are not.

 

Issuing an insult shows the weakness of your argument.

 

Was it an insult? You seem to have placed a lot of faith in those figures and yet others have done a fine job of dismissing the contextual irrelevance of them. But perhaps it is they who are mistaken about the significance of them, eh?.

 

Originally Posted by Wes Tender

And it is totally disingenuous anyway to use those figures in an effort to back up a statement that the vast majority of fans were happy with AP or that it was only a minority who thought that it was a good idea to sack him.

 

I must have missed the protests against AP, the chants at SMS demanding AP to be sacked etc...? Not.

 

Again, as commented elsewhere, perhaps not as unhappy as to demonstrate, but not ecstatic either.

 

Originally Posted by Wes Tender

By doing so, you make at least two assumptions that you are not entitled to make; that you believe that the results since his departure would have been any different and that everybody knows the reasons for his sacking. Nobody can make those assumptions in the first case and only those who have the facts of his dismissal in the second case.

 

The facts are that AP had a very good win ratio record including his "slow start". Best for about 100 years as a Saints manager. The Club stated that he was dismissed to improve co-operation with Les Reed's department. Those are facts stated on the record. Dismissing a Mgr with one of the best win ratios in our 125 year history needs a lot more justification than "to improve co-operation".

 

Again, the poster who pointed out that the lower the division we are in, the easier it is to gain a better win ratio, is spot on, especially given that we not only had a manager experienced at a higher level, but one who also had money at his disposal. And regarding the other point, just because something is reported on the OS, does not make it a fact. Call me a cynic, but I take most things with a pinch of salt. I admit the possibility that there might have been other reasons, but that it was expedient to all that it be presented differently. I have no evidence to support that theory, but neither do I totally accept that the official position is necessarily correct either.

 

Originally Posted by Wes Tender

And as Pardew had over a year to achieve his win ratio and didn't exactly get off to a flying start himself, I suggest that to give any credence to your figures that Adkins be allowed the same time span, in the interests of balance, you understand.

 

Yes Adkins has to be given more time but since AP departed we have one of the worst runs of form in our 125 year history. We are less than 90 minutes from having the longest goal drought in our history. Those are all facts and pretending that these appalling records do not exist or are worse than Lowelife produced is trying to spin a fairy tale on behalf of Cortese.

 

Thanks for the admission at least that time needs to be given to Pardew's successor before any comparisons are made about how good his record was at this level and with the resources available to him. And that goal drought record - how many games have we had so far under Adkins? And you can state with absolute confidence that Pardew would have won those games we lost, can you, even without Lallana and Barnard and Lambert off-colour? And did I make any mention of Lowe, or indeed Cortese?

 

I do believe we will score on Saturday and think that luck may fall our way agst Sheff Weds.

 

Likewise I hope that we turn a corner on Saturday and begin our climb up the table.

[Joensuu]

BTW, post of the day to John Smith... agree with you on every, well made, point.

[Wes Tender]

I haven't insulted anyone. Hysteria has been created by a rumour, and you seem to think it's OK for someone to the family that saved the club from extinction to f*ck off and sell.

 

I have little respect for your opinion.

 

I'm with you on this. Nobody has an obligation to have respect for anybody else's opinion, only their right to express it. It is a distinction that seems to have become blurred.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

TC, you don't seem to be reading the same statement as me.

 

 

 

... all this means is, the club have reviewed the 'status' of the First Team, and decided that they are unlikely to achieve the clubs 'targets'. Therefore it is 'essential' to make changes to the mangement...

 

I'm not taking any side in this debate, but you have done exactly what you criticise others for doing, for example by interpreting the following statement to support your case.

 

The statement reported said "Following a review of the current status in and around the First Team, the Club has decided that, to achieve its well known targets, it is essential to make changes to the First Team management and coaching".

 

Now to me that does NOT EXCLUDE the possibility that around means/includes Les Reed & co, and that the solution is to change the first team coaching because it refuses to or cannot fit in with that. You however have ignored an important word in order to interpret the statement as purely a first team driven issue. When official statements are made, the exact wording is often arrived at very very carefully, and you have to be just as careful when analysing them. I can see just as much room in the statement for TC's interpretation as there is for yours.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

Yes and you could argue that chucking 3-4 mil at it last year, which is a huge amount for L1, was doing just that, without success. Ok we had the disadvantgae of -10 points but even then the impact of that spend should still be seen now... our poor form is probably down to many things, Lallana injured, fitness issues, the loss of waigo and Antonio, and some sort of general malaise - I think the importance of players probably being sucked into the 'walk this league' mentality has also had an effect, and feet need to be firmly planted on the ground.

 

Clubs have shown that with the right attitude, work ethic, and collective spirit, alot cvan be achieved. Add to that the spend we have already seen last year and we should be capable of getting out of thi league, without massive spending.

 

I really feel that this atttitude that many fans have towards success, that we should buy it because we can, (and i am not saying you believe that) is pretty crap. Its the same principle as players who want short cuts to success by simply upping sticks the moment a more successful club comes calling, rather than working hard with the current side to win things on their own merit. Its symptomatic of the 'want it now, pay later' culture.

 

BUt its also true when clubs talk about waht their fans really want. If we had enough fans determined to see us progress rapidly, we would sell out each week and enjoy the financial advantage that brings to the club - but what seems to happen is that the fans want the club to spend first, get success and THEN they will come and fill the ground. Its this attitude that keeps so many clubs in permanent mid table.... or with very slow progress. If we sell out each game we would probably have in teh region of an additional 2-3 mil a year for players in this league. Why do we expect the clud to spend this first?

 

The fact is there are fans, and there are people who watch football to savour atmosphere and to enjoy the reflected glory of watching a successful team. You only fill a ground when you satisfy both groups. It's no good telling the second group that they aren't real fans. Increasing revenue depends to a larger extent on satisfying the needs of group 2; lets face it group 1 the real fans, are more loyal and TBH their demands can more easily be ignored (and I would say NC understands that bit full well).

 

The trouble at the moment is that group 2 can't yet bask in any reflected glory. NC might hope Adkins will do the trick without spending, and in this division I think he will do the business without spending a lot. But the group 2 problem will quicky come back and bite him if we don't do well in the higher division where costs will be significantly higher. That's really where he'll have to invest hard just to stand still... Maybe NC is begining to understand but not to like that scenario?

Edited 24 September, 2010 by hughieslastminutegoal

[hypochondriac]

(Hypo, I've given up with the quoting. Response to your response in blue).

 

 

And I say to these people that they haven't met Cortese, and are largely getting annoyed at a cartoon version of Cortese which has been created through rumour. I also argue that there are plenty of the 'old guard' who have reason to spead these rumours. Anyone slating him, is IMO, jumping to conclusions without seeing evidence.

 

Well here you are incorrect because I HAVE actually met Cortese. To be honest at the time I was impressed by him, I don't think you need to have met him personally though to comment on some of his decisions. I don't have to know him to disagree with his introduction of the excessive ticket tax, to disagree with his handling of the photo ban or to disagree with charging people who park at the stadium for the travel club. I understand why these things have been done but I don't agree with it.

 

However, the people who have met Cortese, seem consistently to talk of his ambition, and honesty.

 

Again, you don't need to have met him to comment on his decisions, especially ones which impact me.

 

We already have 'decent and professional owners', why would you want them to be changed?

 

I think some of Cortese's decisions have been very unprofessional, especially the lack of explanations to the supporters (something which supposedly he admitted to at the season ticket meal, as I said I hope he changes for the better.)

 

Indeed I have. Thankfully they have largely stopped when a certain Romsey-based poster was banned. One or two people stirring up trouble without evidence, does not substantiate anything.

 

No they haven't, many posters have expressed their dissatisfaction at a number of different decisions both on here and via PM but you can pretend that it is no one if it makes you feel better. Docker P, revolution saint, me, Fitzhugh Fella, Stevegrant, Nick Illingsworth, dune to name a couple off the top of my head but there were quite a few more.

 

Nobody is sure. But even in the worst case scenario (i.e. the don't put a single further penny into the club), we would still be in the best financial position in League One, and stronger than almost any team bar QPR in the Championship.

 

I never denied that, personally the ideal scenario for me is that Cortese appoints a fan liaison officer or someone similar to ensure that fans views are listened to and that policy is created with fans in mind. Many supporters I speak to feel like they are being exploited by the new setup and it doesn't create good feeling.

 

Agree, I didn't mean to include loanees into my 'deadwood' statement. I was talking about the terminated contracts. I still argue that the committee should have purchased pace up front, the fact that they didn't certainly cant' be pinned on Cortese or Markus.

 

Well as Cortese is very much part of the committee and appointed everyone else who was part of it, you could argue that it is very much Cortese who is at least partially to blame. I accept that point is pretty irrelevant in this debate though.

 

I also agree that the money spent in the summer could easily have been from our own pockets. Which still means that Leibherr, having written off our debts, allowed us to spend more than anyone else in our league.

 

I diagree with your logic though. Basically you are saying, that because the Leibherr's comes with Cortese attached. An because some people have been throwing mud at Cortese all summer to try and get some to stick. That therefore we might be better off without the financial stability offered by the current owners. Might I point out that this is the first time in our 125 years that we have had financial stability. Might I also point out that you could count on a single hand the number of other teams who have such financial stability (err, QPR, Chelsea, Man City and, err... virtually everyone else is in massive debt, or living hand to mouth). I conclude that your "very possibly better alernatives" are a long shot at best. Remove the Leibherr's, and must be a greater than 90% chance that our position will worsen.

 

People have NOT been throwing mud at Cortese all summer! Can you not understand that people object to some of the decisions which HAVE been made? The photographer ban is a fact, charging people who use the travel club is a fact, the three pound ticket tax is a fact, p*ssing off Francis Benali is a fact (and yes it is, talk to him about it.) the delayed training ground is a fact, it isn't mud slinging for the sake of it! When the admin of this forum expresses concerns, does that not tell you something? Do you think that everyone who has a problem with some of Nicola's decisions wants him to fail? Because it sounds like that is what you are saying, that you think people are creating stories with no evidence just because they don't want Nicola in charge. Do you really believe that?

 

I do like your optimism. It's like holding 4 Kings in poker, but trading them on the off chance you can get 4 Aces. Sure, it might happen, but don't you think it might be a little wreckless to try?

 

As such, I strongly believe anyone attacking the Leibherrs, or Cortese, without evidence, is essentially attacking the future stability of the club. Sure, if the Leibherrs or Cortese have messed up, I'd understand it, but without evidence it seems unjustifiable to me. Sure you might be right, our sitution might improve if we undermine the Leibherrs or Cortese, but, IMO, if you think that, you might as well stake your house on the Grand National. An attack on the current owners, is IMO, and attack on the best future the club can hope for.

 

I don't believe we are undermining them by expressing concern at some of Cortese's decisions and asking for explanations. He himself has said he does not have a lot of experience of english football. I shall be going to the fans forum again this year and shall be asking these questions directly so don't think it is just all talk from me on here. It isn't undermining someone to question what they are doing in some instances. This is after all my club.

 

I recognise that Cortese seems to have had a negative impact on the image of SFC. I would argue that much of this has been despite his actions, and much of it has been mud thats stuck. Even where it has been his mistake (cf Photographer ban), Cortese has shown himself to be willing to reverse his decision when it is wrong. Hardly the 'dictator' some on here have depicted.

 

Has he reversed it? Genuine question as I have been away and have not seen any evidence of a reversal. If so then long may it continue, especially with some of his other decisions and with explaining things to the fans.

 

It is indeed 'entirely possible'. So is winning the lottery. It isn't 'necessarity' a doomsday scenario: it's just a massive gamble, with small odds of success, and a huge amount to lose.

 

I suppose my opinion is slightly different from other supporters. I just want to see saints players doing well, putting their heart and soul into playing and having a good go at teams with the odd win thrown in. I would be quite happy to stay in the championship if I got to watch this every week with my mates and a few beers. For me, winning isn't the be all and end all, sure it is nice to win but it isn't going to be the end of my life if we lose. Give me an entertaining 3-3 over a dour 1-0 win any day. I feel that Cortese has put some exploitative measures in place to take advantage of me and my fellow fans and I don't like it. I'm not sure if having a lot of money is worth it if ultimately I am priced out of going in the future (and this includes small costs such as the ticket tax and the travel coach.)

[Wes Tender]

#hughieslastminutegoal:

The trouble at the moment is that group 2 can't yet bask in any reflected glory. NC might hope Adkins will do the trick without spending, and in this division I think he will do the business without spending a lot. But the group 2 problem will quicky come back and bite him if we don't do well in the higher division where costs will be significantly higher. That's really where he'll have to invest hard just to stand still... Maybe NC is begining to understand but not to like that scenario?

Cortese is a successful and intelligent businessman. Now, you and I realise that costs increase exponentially the higher up the football pyramid you go. Do you really believe that Cortese does not realise that, or that he would not have been advised of it even before ML and he bought into us? I suspect that not only is he entirely aware of the increase in expenditure higher up the divisions, but that is a prime reason for the investment into the academy so that some of that cost can be dissipated by bringing through our own players.

[Joensuu]

I'm not taking any side in this debate, but you have done exactly what you criticise others for doing, for example by interpreting the following statement to support your case.

 

The statement reported said "Following a review of the current status in and around the First Team, the Club has decided that, to achieve its well known targets, it is essential to make changes to the First Team management and coaching".

 

Now to me that does NOT EXCLUDE the possibility that around means/includes Les Reed & co, and that the solution is to change the first team coaching because it refuses to or cannot fit in with that. You however have ignored an important word in order to interpret the statement as purely a first team driven issue. When official statements are made, the exact wording is often arrived at very very carefully, and you have to be just as careful when analysing them. I can see just as much room in the statement for TC's interpretation as there is for yours.

Agreed. The statement could be interpreted either way, or in countless other ways. I wasn't intentionally ignoring any given word. Merely reading the statement in the way it seems to make most sense.

 

Perhaps for clarity, I should have replaced "first team" with "club", which would have left less room for ambiguity:

 

... all this means is, the club have reviewed the 'status' of the club, and decided that they are unlikely to achieve the clubs 'targets'. Therefore it is 'essential' to make changes to the mangement...[/Quote]

 

So, no, it doesn't 'EXCLUDE' the possibility, but it does nothing to suggest this possibility either. Considering this seems to be the only source which people have based the 'AP - LR division' theory on, I would say that the fact is doesn't 'suggest this possibility' is more pertinent to the debate than the fact it doesn't 'exclude the possibility'.

[hypochondriac]

I haven't insulted anyone. Hysteria has been created by a rumour, and you seem to think it's OK for someone to say to the family that saved the club from extinction to f*ck off and sell.

 

I have little respect for your opinion.

 

As I already explained, I did not think that was OK at all and I didn't accuse you of being insulting.

[CanadaSaint]

Cortese is a successful and intelligent businessman. Now, you and I realise that costs increase exponentially the higher up the football pyramid you go. Do you really believe that Cortese does not realise that, or that he would not have been advised of it even before ML and he bought into us? I suspect that not only is he entirely aware of the increase in expenditure higher up the divisions, but that is a prime reason for the investment into the academy so that some of that cost can be dissipated by bringing through our own players.

 

Exactly right. That's precisely why Cortese planned - and, as far as we know, still plans - to spend a lot of money upgrading the academy.

 

Furthermore, a five year plan has multiple steps and stages. The money to boost player personnel when we move into the Championship was, I'm sure, budgeted as part of the plan. Same again should we reach the Premier League.

 

Since Markus died the amount available for investment in Saints has almost certainly become a fixed sum (his "provision") when it probably wasn't before.

 

This means that, IF we've reached our budget limit for getting out of this division, we can only spend more by taking away from future provisions. We already have (probably) the most expensive squad in the division and it should be good enough for promotion, so why spend more? Other than because we've had a tough run with injuries, we probably don't need to spend more - just get these guys playing as they can.

 

But perhaps we haven't reached our budget limit. Perhaps there's more money there, but Cortese wasn't willing to give it to Pardew to spend.

[Andoverian]

I suppose my opinion is slightly different from other supporters. I just want to see saints players doing well, putting their heart and soul into playing and having a good go at teams with the odd win thrown in. I would be quite happy to stay in the championship if I got to watch this every week with my mates and a few beers. For me, winning isn't the be all and end all, sure it is nice to win but it isn't going to be the end of my life if we lose. Give me an entertaining 3-3 over a dour 1-0 win any day. I feel that Cortese has put some exploitative measures in place to take advantage of me and my fellow fans and I don't like it. I'm not sure if having a lot of money is worth it if ultimately I am priced out of going in the future (and this includes small costs such as the ticket tax and the travel coach.)

I totally agree with this view.

[Joensuu]

Well here you are incorrect because I HAVE actually met Cortese. To be honest at the time I was impressed by him, I don't think you need to have met him personally though to comment on some of his decisions. I don't have to know him to disagree with his introduction of the excessive ticket tax, to disagree with his handling of the photo ban or to disagree with charging people who park at the stadium for the travel club. I understand why these things have been done but I don't agree with it.

 

Apologies for assuming you hadn't met him, and I agree that this isn't a prerequisite for discussions (otherwise how could I pass any judgement on him, having never met the man). I too disagree the booking fee, think he didn't show best judgement with the photographer ban (although should be credited for changing his decision when he realised his mistake). I think charging for parking is generally a good idea, however I think some concession should have been made for away coach travellers. The important point you make, is that you 'understand' why these thing have been done.

 

Again, you don't need to have met him to comment on his decisions, especially ones which impact me.

 

Agreed... again

 

I think some of Cortese's decisions have been very unprofessional, especially the lack of explanations to the supporters (something which supposedly he admitted to at the season ticket meal, as I said I hope he changes for the better.)

 

I can't think of any decsion which has been 'unprofessional', sure he has made some decisions you might not agree with, but 'unprofessional'? He could certainly do with improving is communications, but I agree with his general policy of not responding to rumour. News, should be, well, news, not rumour. I too hope his communications change for the better.

 

No they haven't, many posters have expressed their dissatisfaction at a number of different decisions both on here and via PM but you can pretend that it is no one if it makes you feel better. Docker P, revolution saint, me, Fitzhugh Fella, Stevegrant, Nick Illingsworth, dune to name a couple off the top of my head but there were quite a few more.

 

There's a big leap from 'expressing dissatisfaction' to support someone who tells the owners to 'f**k off' without having any evidence to base this on. Anyone can express dissatisfaction, but when this becomes spreading unsubstantiated rumours, I feel a line has been crossed.

 

I never denied that, personally the ideal scenario for me is that Cortese appoints a fan liaison officer or someone similar to ensure that fans views are listened to and that policy is created with fans in mind. Many supporters I speak to feel like they are being exploited by the new setup and it doesn't create good feeling.

 

I agree with you one that. Rather a far cry from supporting the opinion of someone telling the owners to 'f**k off' though isn't it?

 

Well as Cortese is very much part of the committee and appointed everyone else who was part of it, you could argue that it is very much Cortese who is at least partially to blame. I accept that point is pretty irrelevant in this debate though.

 

Agreed.

 

People have NOT been throwing mud at Cortese all summer! Can you not understand that people object to some of the decisions which HAVE been made? The photographer ban is a fact, charging people who use the travel club is a fact, the three pound ticket tax is a fact, p*ssing off Francis Benali is a fact (and yes it is, talk to him about it.) the delayed training ground is a fact, it isn't mud slinging for the sake of it! When the admin of this forum expresses concerns, does that not tell you something? Do you think that everyone who has a problem with some of Nicola's decisions wants him to fail? Because it sounds like that is what you are saying, that you think people are creating stories with no evidence just because they don't want Nicola in charge. Do you really believe that?

 

Do you honestly think there has been no mud throwing? There have been rumours, and counter-rumours being spread about for months now. I'm not talking about objecting to decisions - that's fair enough. I'm talking about the character slating, the comparisions with Mussolini etc. Criticising the decisions is one thing, jumping to conclusions without evidence is another.

 

I don't believe we are undermining them by expressing concern at some of Cortese's decisions and asking for explanations. He himself has said he does not have a lot of experience of english football. I shall be going to the fans forum again this year and shall be asking these questions directly so don't think it is just all talk from me on here. It isn't undermining someone to question what they are doing in some instances. This is after all my club.

 

No nor do I, questioning decisions is one thing, forming opinions on rumour is another. I do believe you are undermining the owners, and therefore club when supporting anyone who suggests he should 'f**k off'. That's hardly constructive.

 

Has he reversed it? Genuine question as I have been away and have not seen any evidence of a reversal. If so then long may it continue, especially with some of his other decisions and with explaining things to the fans.

 

I hadn't seen any evidence for this either, and questioned it. Steve Grant responded with a link which suggested that he'd reversed his decision.

 

I suppose my opinion is slightly different from other supporters. I just want to see saints players doing well, putting their heart and soul into playing and having a good go at teams with the odd win thrown in. I would be quite happy to stay in the championship if I got to watch this every week with my mates and a few beers. For me, winning isn't the be all and end all, sure it is nice to win but it isn't going to be the end of my life if we lose. Give me an entertaining 3-3 over a dour 1-0 win any day. I feel that Cortese has put some exploitative measures in place to take advantage of me and my fellow fans and I don't like it. I'm not sure if having a lot of money is worth it if ultimately I am priced out of going in the future (and this includes small costs such as the ticket tax and the travel coach.)

 

Now that I can agree with. I'd rather lose 5-4 than scrap a win with one shot on goal. It might seem like some of Cortese's decisions have been 'exploitative'. I see it slightly differently. This is a company, he is the CEO, he is making decisions, many of the most objectionable of which are increasing club revenue. This to me is evidence of an effective CEO, cutting wastage, and focusing on the future of the club. So yes, supporters might feel a little lighter in the pocket, but like any product you buy, you are the customer, if you don't like the product, or the price, simply shop elsewhere or don't buy. I have had to make some tough decsions, and have cut back on the games I go to, should I blame the CEO for this, when all he's doing is his job?

 

 

So is the real problem with Cortese the fact he's too good at his job?

[up and away]

I suppose my opinion is slightly different from other supporters. I just want to see saints players doing well, putting their heart and soul into playing and having a good go at teams with the odd win thrown in. I would be quite happy to stay in the championship if I got to watch this every week with my mates and a few beers. For me, winning isn't the be all and end all, sure it is nice to win but it isn't going to be the end of my life if we lose. Give me an entertaining 3-3 over a dour 1-0 win any day. I feel that Cortese has put some exploitative measures in place to take advantage of me and my fellow fans and I don't like it. I'm not sure if having a lot of money is worth it if ultimately I am priced out of going in the future (and this includes small costs such as the ticket tax and the travel coach.)

 

Even when you have most of the answers, you can never be bothered to take things to the next logical step and work things out. This idyllic word of just staying happily in the CCC is just not there. You will get all the average to half decent sides come and pluck any emerging talent before you have time to find out if he has a middle name. Get into minor financial problems and every pikie with a £1 in their pocket will be taking us on to the next level. A **** or bust throw of the dice that has about the same allure of the lottery.

 

When I look at the financial side, season tickets are cheap and considering the money that's been pumped into the club, more than most clubs dream about. Try booking a ticket at Oxford and getting £5 deducted for the pleasure. Just because clubs pass these 3rd party booking costs back to the buyer does not mean they are trying to make a profit from the exercise. So those who cannot afford to buy a season ticket unless on instalments will have to wait until next year because a thieving load of bastards don't give a **** about them.

 

Go next door to Reading and have a look at their prices! This from someone who has been bank rolling the club for years off his own back. When you look at people like Madejski throwing tens of millions away and having prices to cover running costs, let alone get them back in the Premier, you really need resetting into the real world.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

#hughieslastminutegoal:

Cortese is a successful and intelligent businessman. Now, you and I realise that costs increase exponentially the higher up the football pyramid you go. Do you really believe that Cortese does not realise that, or that he would not have been advised of it even before ML and he bought into us? I suspect that not only is he entirely aware of the increase in expenditure higher up the divisions, but that is a prime reason for the investment into the academy so that some of that cost can be dissipated by bringing through our own players.

 

I've worked with a lot of "I have a medium term business plan" types who must have had "attention deficit disorder" for the distinctly short-term interest they actually showed in making it happen. There's a difference between realising something or being made aware of it, and fully understanding what is required before their boredom sets in. I'm sure NC is bright, but it doesn't mean he's patient enough when things don't happen at his required breakneck speed. In my opinion he seems like someone who will suddenly cut his losses if progress isn't quick enough.

 

On the Academy etc. front, I thought some posters on here were questioning how well its actually doing, the slowness of the tg work, and the lack of reserve matches so far.

[Lymsaint]

BTW, post of the day to John Smith... agree with you on every, well made, point.

 

Totally Agree, great post JS

[Wes Tender]

I've worked with a lot of "I have a medium term business plan" types who must have had "attention deficit disorder" for the distinctly short-term interest they actually showed in making it happen. There's a difference between realising something or being made aware of it, and fully understanding what is required before their boredom sets in. I'm sure NC is bright, but it doesn't mean he's patient enough when things don't happen at his required breakneck speed. In my opinion he seems like someone who will suddenly cut his losses if progress isn't quick enough.

 

On the Academy etc. front, I thought some posters on here were questioning how well its actually doing, the slowness of the tg work, and the lack of reserve matches so far.

 

So he brought his family over here to the UK, completely relocating his children and his wife from their settled environment to pursue this vision that he and his friend shared. And you reckon that he did it without first examining every facet and possible outcome? And quite what experience of the man leads you to conclude that he is a quitter who will cut and run when the going gets tough, I do not know. Perhaps you are basing this possibility on your experiences of others you have met in business. But have you had very much contact with Swiss bankers before? Frankly, my experience of meeting any Swiss or Italian Swiss businessmen, although limited, leads me to the belief that most are meticulous people who like to see their projects through to a successful conclusion.

[GenevaSaint]

Frankly, my experience of meeting any Swiss or Italian Swiss businessmen, although limited, leads me to the belief that most are meticulous people who like to see their projects through to a successful conclusion.

 

Hammer, nail and head given my 3 years working out there for a private bank.

[Frank's cousin]

I think some folk ned to try and differentiate between expressing disaatisfaction (something that every 'customer' of any club/business is fully entitles to do) and those that because their ticket did not cost £3, with a free pie and a BJ at half time think Cortese is Satan...

 

Even when you fully understand the rationale, accept the reason for a decison, does not mean you have to agree with it - but it should mean you at least respect it and move on.

 

This fan base seems to have a tendency to move very quickly from disagreeing with a decision to some sort of infantile 'hatred' - the poster responsible for the 'f off' insult to the 'oweners' is a prime case - idiotic statement, no matter how potentially valid his opinion on the decision.

 

I really struggle at times with the mentality of some of our fans - is Saints really SO important, so overwhelminging significant that they are offended the moment anyone does something different to how they see the club should be run? Are their lives so restricted that they cant put support of a football club into some sort of perspective? FFS.....

 

Our owner and GOOD FRIEND of Nicola just died, and here there are some insulting that legacy because in their own selfish arrogance they believe its their right to insult, if they dont like what is being done...

 

I would not be suprised if some of those who are so obssessed by the lack of a defeered payment sustem are not the same 'fans' who took the **** with it before, or some of those who a few seasons ago tooki the **** by getting loads of mates in for free on the same ST.

 

Now, if we want to take the moral high ground here, then you have to grass those people up... sorry but thats the way it is. If you want the club to offer the most flexible approach, then you have to root out those who take the **** and get rid of them simple as... otherwise the club quite rightly has to take a more rigourous stance.

 

Thats the feckin trouble with fans,... we want it all and we want it all our way... and anybody that dares interfere with our view of how a club should be run gets the abuse... what the feck is wrong with some of our fans - they really should get a feckin life.

[Dalek2003]

I don't think any of us actually know Cortese's business plan.

 

If it is "get to the Prem in 3/5 years" it cannot also be " a fiscal approach living within our means" - unless we are very lucky, and being very lucky should not form part of a business plan.

 

If we live within our means it would probably be at least 10-15 years before we are likely to be a Prem club. if we are unlucky it could be 20-30 years or longer or never. The ONLY way to have a realistic chance of getting to the prem in 3/5 years is to chuck lots and lots of money at it.

 

Norwich City have spent modestly and will have a real chance of getting to the Premiership.

[Freemantle Saint]

Interesting stance. FWIW, I generally agreed with you that Ap needed time at the beginning of the season. Why keep him here if to only sack him 4 games in, didn't make sense? And because of the NDA's OR the unwillingness to communicate (Cortese & Pardew equally), us fans are left scatching our heads and wondering WTF!

 

Basically, the fans are divided (on here anyway), between AP must have done something to deserve being sacked and it's a good job he went as he was the reason we were not performing, whereas others believe that Cortese is a power crazed fool that sacks people on a whim and employee's avoid him like the plague.

 

I think this is a fair split. BUT, I also think we have to seperate our feelings of Cortese from our understanding of the Liebherr family. Yes, business is business, but our owners have lost their husband/father and family member, I think telling them to f**k off is very much OTT. You are clearly confusing your dislike for Cortese with your dislike for someone who has been laid to rest and his remaining family members that didn't want this club for themselves anyway.

 

Also, I don;t think it's about profit. I believe the club was originally an investment. We all knew Saints were an opportunity with someone with enough money. Cortese convinced Liebherr that he was the man to take that opportunity. And let's face it, this time last year, we nearly (laughably) had that other mob in charge of us but, they failed and Liebherr picked up the chalice and carried us forward.

 

A year on, let's not tell them to F**k off, that's not right. For all Cortese's failings, communication being one of them, I think some on here have missed the whole point of this business. It was to be self sustaining. We weren't promised millions of investment. We believed that come January last season, if we were in with a shout of promotion, funds would be made available. Opinion was split, would we challenge for a play-off spot or not? AP believed we would, NC convinced ML to release the purse strings, high profile players were brought in, BUT we failed, fell short. Can we blame AP? I think so. Can we blame the players? Probably. Can we blame NC or ML? I don;t think so, they delivered where his manager and team did not.

 

So, this summer, I thought we all knew there would be no BIG signings and a massive influx of players. We resorted to plan A, self sustaining. This is why it has gauled me when I hear people demanding this player or this amount of money or cry when there is a £3 surcharge or the installment plan that was abused by us, was taken away. This is what happens when you are wanting to become self sustaining, particularly in the economic situation we are ALL in. And, the players we had on the opening day of the season, were not being questioned. The training was, the pre-season friendlies were, but not the ability of these players. As it has turned out, many of these players have underperformed AND Liebherr passed away, very sadly, AND AP was let go (like I said, who knows why). So why oh why oh why, do Liebherr's family deserve, or have offended you so much whereby you feel that, through your angst I'm guessing, you can disrespect them so. In other words, what did they do to you? And don;t say Cortese, that was ML and he is not here to defend himself or his actions or his decisions.

 

If you are upset with Cortese, then so be it, FWIW I think you shouldn't be. If you are upset that AP has gone, then so be it, but again, FWIW, looking forward, maybe NA is the man for us in this period of our history, but only time will tell. But, don;t get agro with the Liebherr family. ML passing was not planned, it wasn't a slight against you or any other fan, and I'm sure they didn;t want this to happen.

 

So, where does this leave us. IMO, it leaves us exactly where we were at the end of last season, just missing our. The circumstances have changes, some of the personnle has changed, but, we have lucked out 'again'. But, I believe, rather than all pointing fingers, sla**ing off Cortese, bad mouthing the Liebherrs, demanding money, stamping our feet for loanee's, criticising the back room staff, airing personal stories on here to cause unwanted conjecture, I believe, we need to club together. For good or for bad, this season, we need to become a club again. Cortese is trying to make this so, the staff are working hard to achieve this, the Liebherrs have not pulled the plug and the position we are in is where we deserve to be.

 

So, what this club needs right now, is not for anyone to F**k Off, BUT, for EVERYONE to pull together and move forward, that includes the players AND the fans. This includes you, this includes me. And the more 'stories' that I hear on this website about Cortese this and Cortese that, reminds me just how far people will go t o advance their own agenda rather than joining forces for the GOOD OF THIS CLUB, burying that agenda and supporting Saints. Let's review this again next year. We are in League 1, we are in season 2 of NC's reign, he just lost his friend and mentor, let's just give the guy a chance. If he messes up, let's 'help' him put them right, let's be positive not negative, let's be fans.

 

 

My point poorly communicated is that i dont like the way the club has become.

We have always had reputation as a friendly well run club and indeed as perenial relegation candidates were an underdog.

We are now a "south coast team", sacking managers 5 games in, the renaming of the suites is to me spiteful...and shows that cortese wants nothing to do with the past history of the club.

 

Yes they saved the club, but now they own it lock stock the fcking lot they could if they want move it to say.....petersfield.

Wouldnt happen....tell it to wimbledon fans...

 

Many say we should fawn over this regime for saving the club, i think they got it on the cheap....

 

i will point at that the real dons stand on the threshold of a return to the league....

 

All im saying is we dont have to bend over and let this lot anally intrude us because they happen to have got the club at a knock down price.

 

From what i have heard from people who work at st marys cortese is a complete tool...

[hypochondriac]

My point poorly communicated is that i dont like the way the club has become.

We have always had reputation as a friendly well run club and indeed as perenial relegation candidates were an underdog.

We are now a "south coast team", sacking managers 5 games in, the renaming of the suites is to me spiteful...and shows that cortese wants nothing to do with the past history of the club.

 

Yes they saved the club, but now they own it lock stock the fcking lot they could if they want move it to say.....petersfield.

Wouldnt happen....tell it to wimbledon fans...

 

Many say we should fawn over this regime for saving the club, i think they got it on the cheap....

 

i will point at that the real dons stand on the threshold of a return to the league....

 

All im saying is we dont have to bend over and let this lot anally intrude us because they happen to have got the club at a knock down price.

 

From what i have heard from people who work at st marys cortese is a complete tool...

Totally agree.

[alehouseboys]

Norwich City have spent modestly and will have a real chance of getting to the Premiership.

 

...but, of course, would have got there twice as quickly if they'd employed Glenn Hoddle...

 

HTH

[Wes Tender]

My point poorly communicated is that i dont like the way the club has become.

 

No, it wasn't communicated that badly that we didn't get the message, although you are right that your grammar is not the best. We also realise that Left Back and Hypochondriac aren't happy either.

 

We have always had reputation as a friendly well run club and indeed as perenial relegation candidates were an underdog.

We are now a "south coast team", sacking managers 5 games in, the renaming of the suites is to me spiteful...and shows that cortese wants nothing to do with the past history of the club.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pardew had a full season plus the five games of this one. And you speak of this as if it's something new. Presumably the family club reputation preceded Lowe's tenure, as we perennially dismissed managers annually under him for the past decade. So you are really harking back many years to this family club thing.

 

Yes they saved the club, but now they own it lock stock the fcking lot they could if they want move it to say.....petersfield.

Wouldnt happen....tell it to wimbledon fans...

 

I suggest that you wait and see whether they do anything like this first, before becoming hysterical about what they could do, but probably will not happen. Otherwise, you are going to look a bit foolish.

 

Many say we should fawn over this regime for saving the club, i think they got it on the cheap....

 

Who says we should fawn over this regime? We might be grateful that they came to our rescue and saved us from oblivion, but it seems that fawning bit is something that you have made up. Point out anywhere where anybody has said we should fawn over them. As for getting us on the cheap, it was a good piece of business for sure, but are you suggesting that they ought to have been poorer business people and paid over the top for us? And as we were such a bargain, I didn't see a queue of respectable takers making offers, just some tyre-kickers

 

i will point at that the real dons stand on the threshold of a return to the league....

 

Could you translate, please?

 

All im saying is we dont have to bend over and let this lot anally intrude us because they happen to have got the club at a knock down price.

 

Who is suggesting that we do?

 

From what i have heard from people who work at st marys cortese is a complete tool...

 

I've heard several people say that you are too. Are you?

[Depressed of Shirley]

My point poorly communicated is that i dont like the way the club has become.

We have always had reputation as a friendly well run club and indeed as perenial relegation candidates were an underdog.

We are now a "south coast team", sacking managers 5 games in, the renaming of the suites is to me spiteful...and shows that cortese wants nothing to do with the past history of the club.

 

Yes they saved the club, but now they own it lock stock the fcking lot they could if they want move it to say.....petersfield.

Wouldnt happen....tell it to wimbledon fans...

 

Many say we should fawn over this regime for saving the club, i think they got it on the cheap....

 

i will point at that the real dons stand on the threshold of a return to the league....

 

All im saying is we dont have to bend over and let this lot anally intrude us because they happen to have got the club at a knock down price.

 

From what i have heard from people who work at st marys cortese is a complete tool...

 

The friendly club tag was on the first bus out of town when RL took the club on.

[Victor]

 

So, what this club needs right now, is not for anyone to F**k Off, BUT, for EVERYONE to pull together and move forward, that includes the players AND the fans. This includes you, this includes me. And the more 'stories' that I hear on this website about Cortese this and Cortese that, reminds me just how far people will go t o advance their own agenda rather than joining forces for the GOOD OF THIS CLUB, burying that agenda and supporting Saints. Let's review this again next year. We are in League 1, we are in season 2 of NC's reign, he just lost his friend and mentor, let's just give the guy a chance. If he messes up, let's 'help' him put them right, let's be positive not negative, let's be fans.

 

Well, "everyone" except Alan Pardew, Wally Downes and Stuart Murdoch.

 

And whoever else upsets Il Duce.

[John Smith]

My point poorly communicated is that i dont like the way the club has become.

We have always had reputation as a friendly well run club and indeed as perenial relegation candidates were an underdog.

We are now a "south coast team", sacking managers 5 games in, the renaming of the suites is to me spiteful...and shows that cortese wants nothing to do with the past history of the club.

 

Yes they saved the club, but now they own it lock stock the fcking lot they could if they want move it to say.....petersfield.

Wouldnt happen....tell it to wimbledon fans...

 

Many say we should fawn over this regime for saving the club, i think they got it on the cheap....

 

i will point at that the real dons stand on the threshold of a return to the league....

 

All im saying is we dont have to bend over and let this lot anally intrude us because they happen to have got the club at a knock down price.

 

From what i have heard from people who work at st marys cortese is a complete tool...

 

I knew you didn't mean to come across quite so harsh as you did. I've read your posts in the past and I know we often agree. I think, like I said, us fans are divided on this issue. And, if you could direct your passionate derision against Cortese rather than the Liebherrs, I think it'll be better.

 

However, on your point of moving the team or whatever, I think you'll foind that the Liebherrs have no interest whatsoever in 'moving' this club. It is exactly where it needs to be. Remeber that ML was quite religios, St Mary's church just down the road, Saint Mary's stadium, The Saints, it aint gonna happen.

 

Also, don't be misguided in believing that people like me and others, are not 'fawning' over Cortese, but, are do in fact feel the same as you. We just think that to make this a family club, a supporters club, and basically a club again, we need to look at ourselves. Forget the meaningless moaning of some about Cortese this, Cortese that, he is the boss, if your boss was weak willed, weak minded and pampered to those that needed to be consulted on here every time he needed a fart, the 'business' wouldn't move anywhere. So, what we're saying is give him a chance to run the 'business' and we should concentrate on making this a family club again. And remember, it is ONLY the fans that can do this, not Cortese. The photography ban, does not effect the family club, the withdrawal of the installments was a decision based on those that ripped this family club off, and yes, we suffered for that, but don;t blame Cortese for the would be criminals on here. As for the £3 surcharge, I'm torn, I understand the need for it, I just question the diplomacy in it. However, If you were a season ticket holder, you wouldn;t be effected by it. But, family, does the £3 effect the family? Some on here would say it out priced the family and it is now more expensive, blah blah, BUT, when I was a nipper, I have stated this in the past, before even Cortese was known to us, I watched Saints once a season, this was my birthday present. And if my parents couldn;t afford to come as well, my uncle would pay for my cousin (who was 10 years older), to bring me instead. I could NEVER afford to go to the games until I was 14 and I got a milk round, I worked every week end, from 3am til 1pm, got paid and went straight to the game. But, I'm not looking for sympathy, I enjoyed it, it was special and yes it was a family club. But, it was the fans that made it that way, not the Chairman. And, it's the fans that can make it that way again.

 

So, criticise Cortese where it's deserved, but do it respectfully, like you;re part of a family. Leave the business to him, and leave the supporting to us. And stop believing all what you hear, believe me, if you think your boss is a tool, it's probably because you don;t work hard enough. Bosses should be tough, that's why they're the boss. But don;t confuse tough with tool, as some on here seem to. Also, a lot of 'fans' have an axe to grind, don;t listen to them, they will talk to ANYBODY that will listen, they are hurt and bitter, and in my mind, cry babies who have had they're toys taken away, boo hoo and all that.

 

Lastly, whatever the price, whatever the reason, they didn;t con anybody, anybody could've put in a higher bid, they didn't, we have what we have now. Allow them to do their jobs, because they believe we will do ours, only, it seems that they're doing their job, but the fans and the players aren;t doing theirs. Think it's time we ALL started trying, don't you?

[sadoldgit]

Width of play, players playing in their strongest positions, improved tactics, dead ball variety, ability to use the right subs at the right time and an ability to change tactics/formation (the much vaunted plan B) with a positive outcome. That is the minimum I would expect from any Manager employed by a progressive club.

 

You could look at most clubs and critisise their manager for a variety of failings Ron. I think the issue with those of us who were disappointed that the CEO didn't seem to fancy Pardew and were very disappointed at his sacking was that we feel that, after a slow start, he did a really good job for us last season and were looking forward to him building on that and taking us up this year. Hopefully Adkins will get it together and I appreciate he has only been here 5 minutes but I do findthis Pardew was rubbish and Adkins is a great manager stuff hard to understand. I appreciate that those for whom Cortese can do no wrong will back his decision and Adkins to the hilt. They will also have a go at Pardew because that supports their pro-Cortses agenda. But whilst he made mistaks, he also got a lot right and but for the -10 we would have made the play offs and more than likely gone up. He has left us with a decent squad that only needs a couple more players to be a real force and he deserves credit. If Adkins goes managed to get uspromoted this season it will be on the back of Pardew's work. All this stuff about poor close season preparation is also questionable. Lambert himself says he was in the best condition ever (ironic of course that he should then get injured!).

 

Also let's get something straight. Cortese did not save this club from disappearing off the face of the planet. If they hadn't bought us someone else would have done. Like CEOs before him he needs to judged on his decisions and progress. After the way we played for most of last season the expectations this season have been huge. Instead, at the moment, we have gone backwards and it is not unreasonable to ask questions of Cortese as head honcho becuase they sure would have been asked of Lowe, Wilde and Crouch.

 

If were are still in the bottom half of the table come Christmas will he still be fireproof to those who think he can do no wrong?

[up and away]

You could look at most clubs and critisise their manager for a variety of failings Ron. I think the issue with those of us who were disappointed that the CEO didn't seem to fancy Pardew and were very disappointed at his sacking was that we feel that, after a slow start, he did a really good job for us last season and were looking forward to him building on that and taking us up this year. Hopefully Adkins will get it together and I appreciate he has only been here 5 minutes but I do findthis Pardew was rubbish and Adkins is a great manager stuff hard to understand. I appreciate that those for whom Cortese can do no wrong will back his decision and Adkins to the hilt. They will also have a go at Pardew because that supports their pro-Cortses agenda. But whilst he made mistaks, he also got a lot right and but for the -10 we would have made the play offs and more than likely gone up. He has left us with a decent squad that only needs a couple more players to be a real force and he deserves credit. If Adkins goes managed to get uspromoted this season it will be on the back of Pardew's work. All this stuff about poor close season preparation is also questionable. Lambert himself says he was in the best condition ever (ironic of course that he should then get injured!).

 

Also let's get something straight. Cortese did not save this club from disappearing off the face of the planet. If they hadn't bought us someone else would have done. Like CEOs before him he needs to judged on his decisions and progress. After the way we played for most of last season the expectations this season have been huge. Instead, at the moment, we have gone backwards and it is not unreasonable to ask questions of Cortese as head honcho becuase they sure would have been asked of Lowe, Wilde and Crouch.

 

If were are still in the bottom half of the table come Christmas will he still be fireproof to those who think he can do no wrong?

 

When Cortese kept Pardew on, it was with the full intention that Pardew would be here for the season to deliver promotion. I was impressed that Cortese made that decision, bearing in mind that in any other business Pardew would have been out the door immediately he stated that he had prioritised the cups. The one and only directive from Cortese was to prioritise the league, an instant sacking offence for going against that in any other industry. But Cortese took stock, looked at the good and bad of Pardew and committed him him for the following season.

 

I thought that was the correct decision, Pardew had done enough good to warrant a further stay and I was behind that decision because it made sense. I don't know why Pardew got the sack, but it was clear by a very early stage that Pardew had got several things wrong. The fitness and injuries were unacceptable and our main weakness from the previous season had not been addressed. We had a poor start against a couple of weak teams and although I would have given Pardew a handful more games, I don't know the full picture. Something else has reared up from Staplewood and done for Pardew, though I get the feeling that without all the other failings Pardew had showed at the start, he could well have stayed. I was prepared to wait and see how Pardew got on with the "special" players he was looking for, but equally I was not viewing it as a disaster that he went.

 

And lets get something else straight from the administrators own words, if Liebherr was not there, liquidation would have directly followed. No, we would not have completely disappeared, but you would have to of searched in the lower reaches of the Blue Square to find us. You can point to faults with Cortese over other matters and I doubt you will get an argument. The only argument is that these faults are absolutely minor in the big picture, something that will disappear completely with a run of winning games.