Ed Miliband, he is the one.

[dune]

come off it mate, do you honestly believe the new labour project bore any resemblance to socialism?

 

Yes I do. It was a control freak regime and it was left wing regime - it was therefore pure socialism. The only difference is that Labour abandoned the old working class and instead governed to improve the lives of a new working class of immigrants and an unworking class of career slobs.

[Saintandy666]

You clearly have no idea what socialism is if you think Labour these days are socialist.

[solentstars]

Socialism is akin to Marxism and has always been about control and the nanny state, and Conservatism has always been about freedom and giving responsibility to the people. After 13 dark years of Socialism we are seeing civil liberties returned. I think many people, including yourself, fail understand what you are voting for.

 

unlike you with your communist authoritarian mindset,i do not vote for the same party every election:rolleyes:

[dune]

unlike you i do not vote for the same party every election

 

You presume too much. I used to vote Conservative, threw a vote the BNP's way in the European elections to make a statement, and now I vote UKIP.

[dune]

You clearly have no idea what socialism is if you think Labour these days are socialist.

 

I've just explained to you why they were socialist. Do you understand what left wing means?

[Verbal]

Yes I do. It was a control freak regime and it was left wing regime - it was therefore pure socialism. The only difference is that Labour abandoned the old working class and instead governed to improve the lives of a new working class of immigrants and an unworking class of career slobs.

 

Is there any chance - any chance at all - that you could raise your level of political sophistication above the average seven year old? You throw big words around without any hint of an understanding as to what they mean, and then draw playground connections between them. You'd do well to do a bit of reading around the subject.

[dune]

Is there any chance - any chance at all - that you could raise your level of political sophistication above the average seven year old? You throw big words around without any hint of an understanding as to what they mean, and then draw playground connections between them. You'd do well to do a bit of reading around the subject.

 

So many words, but you haven't been able to arrange them into an explanation as to why i'm wrong.

[Verbal]

So many words, but you haven't been able to arrange them into an explanation as to why i'm wrong.

 

I'm not sure you're worth the trouble. But here are a few hints. Get to grips with the differences between social democracy and socialism, and their respective histories in the late nineteenth and twentieth centuries. You may even discover how European social democracy was actually a bulwark against East European state socialism. Then try looking at Labour's slide from syndicalist socialism to 'New Labour' social democracy, and how its obsession with 'targets' and control has nothing to do with socialism, but with a futile desire to bring the neoliberal agenda of market forces into public services.

 

Let me know when you're back. Your homework should take approximately eight years.

[Saintandy666]

I've just explained to you why they were socialist. Do you understand what left wing means?

 

I'm quite aware of what left wing/right wing is. No major parties in our country are particularly left wing. How was Labour socialist when in power??? I would argue that Tony Blair was centre right, clashing with the more left wing Tories, people like Ken Clarke, so called One Nation Conservatives.

 

Let's do the first test for socialism. Were Labour in support Nationalisation and so called 'common ownership' or Privatisation? Labour wanted more privatisation; in fact they did make moves to further privatise the economy while in power. A second test... Socialists would also want proper Equality of Outcome and redistribution of wealth and that totally happened under labour(not). A third test... socialists dislike private property ownership, any proof that labour did anything to harm private property during their time in power?

 

The Left-Right scale is purely an economic policy measurement and if you think that labour or the conservatives are on the left side of this scale then you clearly don't understand it. What you are talking about is freedom. This can not be measured on the traditional left-right scale.

[dune]

I'm not sure you're worth the trouble. But here are a few hints. Get to grips with the differences between social democracy and socialism, and their respective histories in the late nineteenth and twentieth centuries. You may even discover how European social democracy was actually a bulwark against East European state socialism. Then try looking at Labour's slide from syndicalist socialism to 'New Labour' social democracy, and how its obsession with 'targets' and control has nothing to do with socialism, but with a futile desire to bring the neoliberal agenda of market forces into public services.

 

Let me know when you're back. Your homework should take approximately eight years.

 

I'm back and I admire your quick use of Wiki, but you have failed to say why i'm wrong in the statement i made.

[Verbal]

I'm back and I admire your quick use of Wiki, but you have failed to say why i'm wrong in the statement i made.

 

Back too quick. Now read!!

[solentstars]

Is there any chance - any chance at all - that you could raise your level of political sophistication above the average seven year old? You throw big words around without any hint of an understanding as to what they mean, and then draw playground connections between them. You'd do well to do a bit of reading around the subject.

 

like the members of the communists and fascists he will repeat the party line and not diverge from it one bit and also i expect he is winding you up, because he posts the same predicable lines time after time:o

[Verbal]

like the members of the communists and fascists he will repeat the party line and not diverge from it one bit and also i expect he is winding you up, because he posts the same predicable lines time after time:o

 

Not wound up at all - just amazed that someone would, of their own volition, wallow in such a pit of despond and ignorance. Was just trying to be helpful, but I guess that anyone who takes the view that history is whatever that racist idiot Smith says it is, is shining a rather too revealing light on themselves. I'll move on...

[dune]

I'm quite aware of what left wing/right wing is. No major parties in our country are particularly left wing.

 

So paying career slobs to sit on their arses and dolling money out to immigrants (at the expense of all the traditional classes) wasn't left wing?

 

Let's do the first test for socialism. Were Labour in support Nationalisation and so called 'common ownership' or Privatisation? Labour wanted more privatisation; in fact they did make moves to further privatise the economy while in power. A second test... Socialists would also want proper Equality of Outcome and redistribution of wealth and that totally happened under labour(not). A third test... socialists dislike private property ownership, any proof that labour did anything to harm private property during their time in power?

 

In respect of point 1, correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't it Labour that led the world down the path of bank Nationalisations paid for with money we had to borrow because no money had been put aside for a rainy day? In respect of point 2 I have already explained how the Socialist taxed the traditional classes (working class upwards) to raise the living standards of immigrants and career slobs. In respect of point 3 I would suggest to you that Labours reckless frittering away of public finances is a bombshell yet to explode and we will not fully appreciate how this will affect our lives until we have to start paying the credit card off. But you do have a point in this respect in that more council homes should have been built especially given the fact that so many were issued to those newly arrivd on our shores.

 

The Left-Right scale is purely an economic policy measurement and if you think that labour or the conservatives are on the left side of this scale then you clearly don't understand it. What you are talking about is freedom. This can not be measured on the traditional left-right scale.

 

Freedom can be measured on a left right scale, or are you suggesting that a communist system allows people to realise their ambitions#?

[Verbal]

Okay one last try. Dune, go away and read just one book. Just one, that's all I'm asking. Cambridge economist Ha-Joon Chang (yes, I know - he's not white) answers all your points (if that's the word) in '23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism'.

 

Then let's talk.

[dune]

Okay one last try. Dune, go away and read just one book. Just one, that's all I'm asking. Cambridge economist Ha-Joon Chang (yes, I know - he's not white) answers all your points (if that's the word) in '23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism'.

 

Then let's talk.

 

I'd rather not. But I would suggest you read The Great Betrayal - the memoirs of Ian Douglas Smith, as I think you'd benefit from it.

[Verbal]

I'd rather not. But I would suggest you read The Great Betrayal - the memoirs of Ian Douglas Smith, as I think you'd benefit from it.

 

Smith has already found his most useful role - as compost. Go on, risk having your mind unwound from 1956. You know you want to...

[dune]

Smith has already found his most useful role - as compost.

 

A charmig reply to make about a WW2 war hero.

[Verbal]

A charmig reply to make about a WW2 war hero.

 

No one disgraced a war record more than that racist thug.

[dune]

No one disgraced a war record more than that racist thug.

 

You're wrong in what you believe and i could go on for hours explaining why, but it's not on topic so won't get into it here.

[Saintandy666]

Dune, you are so so so wrong on this. I don't think I can be bothered to make my point again. I've said what I'm going to say.

 

New Labour are not and never were in any way a socialist party. That is all.

 

Liberty and Economic policy can not be measured on the same scale. Hitler for example was centreish left wing in much of his economic policy, but extremely what I would guess you would call right wing authoritarian in his social policy. Social and Economic policy and freedoms are not necessarily linked.

Edited 3 October, 2010 by Saintandy666

[badgerx16]

Freedom can be measured on a left right scale, or are you suggesting that a communist system allows people to realise their ambitions#?

What about Pinochet, Allende, Galtieri, Franco, Peron, the Greek generals, the Portuguese junta, etc,etc - right wing repression is just as bad, if not worse than any percieved 'left wing control freakery'. Socialism and capitalism are ideals, each with their pros and cons, but which are ruined by the fact that, in the main, human beings, regardless of where they sit on the political scale, are selfish and greedy, and always on the look-out for somebody to squash.

[solentstars]

Not wound up at all - just amazed that someone would, of their own volition, wallow in such a pit of despond and ignorance. Was just trying to be helpful, but I guess that anyone who takes the view that history is whatever that racist idiot Smith says it is, is shining a rather too revealing light on themselves. I'll move on...

 

but he a nobody ,leave him in his own little dream world .

[scotty]

Yes I do. It was a control freak regime and it was left wing regime - it was therefore pure socialism. The only difference is that Labour abandoned the old working class and instead governed to improve the lives of a new working class of immigrants and an unworking class of career slobs.

 

They certainly abandoned the old working class, but the "socialist" tag fades somewhat when you consider its economic implications. They embraced free-market economics and privatisation with more venom than thatcher ever did, and the slew of PFI contracts under new labour was horrific. And politically, they were far more right-wing than any socialist administration would care to admit, there was nothing left-wing about them that I can discern.