Time to accept that it is unlikely we will go up

[The9]

I just cannot see how we're suddenly going to transform from a toothless less than average team to championship form. We really are a joke of a club.

 

Well, we managed it in reverse.

[Saint-scooby]

Things can only get better

[The9]

Shame wilkins couldn't though in fact he couldn't even get a 25% win ratio with lasts years team and money . Whats the difference with this years team and lasts years then same players and price? and don't tell me it's papa or antonio becuase you said they were both pretty average players.

 

I've been thinking about this and mostly because I know that Waigo and Antonio barely started 25 league games between them, I'm wondering if it might be someone else we let go in the summer that is the key - you hear a lot about characters keeping the changing room buoyant and needing the right balance, maybe the likes of Wayne Thomas were responsible for much of the drive and motivation, or Lloyd James (I know, I know...) could have helped keep the senior pros grounded - one thing that is true, none of the currently fit players except Kelvin were even here in July 2009, how can they know how it felt to be a Saints player then, or be motivated by leaving that behind us ? Or it could just be that we now have too many money chasers ?

 

Not sure I'm right, but something has gone wrong behind the scenes, these players are better than the results they're getting, even without Barnard and Lallana.

[captainchris]

We clearly lack pace, especially out wide

 

It's been mentioned by many posters that we miss Papa Waigo and Antonio, but I'd be interested to know the real reasons why we never replaced them.

 

Whose fault was it - Pardew or Cortese?

Were we being plain arrogant in thinking we didn't need them, or we could sign whoever we wanted in the summer?

 

Whatever the answers, we've made a serious blunder there

 

Oh so so true. What the heck was the reason we didn't either sign them or replace them. It was patently obvious they were driving our team. It was also obvious Pardew didn't like Waigo and was not fussed about loosing either of them. To not replace them was nothing short of incompetent!.

[Smirking_Saint]

We'll find out with Adkins won't we... It's too easy to write off managers who win matches.

 

It's because win ratio's are trotted out a lot and don't really mean too much. They are very much situational, i would imagine Liverpool have always had a decent win ratio for a few years, however they have never won the premiership.

 

Pardew did ok, if i am honest i don't think he was a great manager but i did want him to get extra time to what he did, but then we don't know what sparked the dismissal and he never really set the world alight in pre-season or his early games, in fact we looked exactly how we did now, played some good football but couldn't put the ball away.

 

Whatever the reason for AP's sacking we have Adkins now, and i am confident he will be good enough to get us promoted (admitidly i was confident Pardew could last season but he failed). In fact, i would be confident, with the team and money we have, that anyone could get us promoted from this league. The real test for me will be from the championship and upwards, and only a manager who is able to work with everyone at the club will be able to achieve that.

 

Edit - As for Antonio and Papa, yes i do think they were average players (papa was better than Antonio) thats not to say we are not missing them, we are, we miss pace, direct running and more importantly options. My point however was not that they are not good enough Doddsi but that for Antonio 500k is a maximum limit for his value.

[Kingsbridge Saint]

I am not giving up and things must surely improve because at the moment, on current form, we are headed out of this Division and into Division 4 faster than a vindaloo through a baby. The thread title is probably correct - it IS time to accept that it is unlikely that we will go up this season. The balance of probabilities suggest the play offs are a likely finishing spot for us - and from there, even with hot current form - the probabability of promotion cannot be more than about 40% in a four horse race. Ergo - it is unlikely that we will go up this season. This is the unpalatable reality we currently face. Win 6 on the bounce though - and it's a different scenario.

[1976_Child]

I accepted it after two games. You look at our lads, they are individually more than competent. But a team? Nope. There is too much padding in the way. I hate to say it, but our boys are already spoiled. To build a team needs the members of that team to cease being 'employees' on a wage. They need to WANT to win, they should be at the training ground an hour before NA gets there. They should already have warmed up, worked out had a team talk and be ANGRY about their crap performance so far. Instead, I honestly believe that they, with few exceptions, crawl out of bed in the morning and wander down to the training ground counting the clock every step of the way. That is never going to be a winning team. Never.

[Legod Third Coming]

I've been thinking about this and mostly because I know that Waigo and Antonio barely started 25 league games between them, I'm wondering if it might be someone else we let go in the summer that is the key - you hear a lot about characters keeping the changing room buoyant and needing the right balance, maybe the likes of Wayne Thomas were responsible for much of the drive and motivation, or Lloyd James (I know, I know...) could have helped keep the senior pros grounded - one thing that is true, none of the currently fit players except Kelvin were even here in July 2009, how can they know how it felt to be a Saints player then, or be motivated by leaving that behind us ? Or it could just be that we now have too many money chasers ?

 

Not sure I'm right, but something has gone wrong behind the scenes, these players are better than the results they're getting, even without Barnard and Lallana.

 

Genius... well spotted.

 

I wonder if this is down to... oh what was it again, oh it was something someone once told me about football... hang on... oh yes, that was it.

 

It was down to THE MANAGER.

 

Feck me, why is it only our fans can watch a manager win well over half his games and credit it to El Nino or the arrival in dock of the Queen Charlotte of the High Seas?

 

Bonkers. Fecking bonkers.

Edited 17 September, 2010 by Legod Third Coming

[Legod Third Coming]

It's because win ratio's are trotted out a lot and don't really mean too much. They are very much situational, i would imagine Liverpool have always had a decent win ratio for a few years, however they have never won the premiership.

 

Pardew did ok, if i am honest i don't think he was a great manager but i did want him to get extra time to what he did, but then we don't know what sparked the dismissal and he never really set the world alight in pre-season or his early games, in fact we looked exactly how we did now, played some good football but couldn't put the ball away.

 

Whatever the reason for AP's sacking we have Adkins now, and i am confident he will be good enough to get us promoted (admitidly i was confident Pardew could last season but he failed). In fact, i would be confident, with the team and money we have, that anyone could get us promoted from this league. The real test for me will be from the championship and upwards, and only a manager who is able to work with everyone at the club will be able to achieve that.

 

Edit - As for Antonio and Papa, yes i do think they were average players (papa was better than Antonio) thats not to say we are not missing them, we are, we miss pace, direct running and more importantly options. My point however was not that they are not good enough Doddsi but that for Antonio 500k is a maximum limit for his value.

 

Er, I wonder if that's because Manchester United and Chelsea achieved higher win ratios?

 

No you're right, who gives a bugger how many matches a manager wins or how often. Just so long as he only wins the ones that matter...

[rolosfc]

I know that Chamberlain is playing well at the moment but we are in serious danger of running him into the ground. I would start with Mills and then have Chamberlain as an impact sub, where I think he would have more of an impact. I just can't see where goals are going to come from when Mills and Holmes are our two options coming off the bench.

[Topcat]

No you're right, who gives a bugger how many matches a manager wins or how often. Just so long as he only wins the ones that matter...

 

I have read many of your past posts across this and other fora assuming you were also LGSC. So I am puzzled by your logic. The thread was about whether we had to accept it was unlikely that we will go up. It is about our chances of promotion and they in turn depend upon the % of League games we win.

 

Cortese also seems to not care what the win ratio is but cared more about "co-operation with the training dept and investing (nett) more cash in Les Reed's empire this summer than the 1st team".

 

Just as Lowe cared more about having "a radio station, Sir Clive Woodward's empire and 1st class catering"

[Dalek2003]

Great Pards fan and gutted and very disappointed when he was sacked...

 

Big mistake by Sir Nic......Also the appointment of Sir Less is not going to work.......

 

Anyone who says, how do you know...

 

Years of experience when dealing with amateur control freaks..Let him go back to the FA and help them win all the World Cups in the cabinet..NOT

 

This is going to continue to be a thorn in our side and will eventually come back and bite poor old Nic on the bum..

 

But life will go on......NOW

 

if

 

OUR NIGE CAN GET TO GRIPS WITH A FEW LOANS AND SORT OUT A FEW HEADS......

 

WE HAVE....More than a good chance...

 

Let us not give up fellow fans...WE CAN STILL DO THIS....If not the play offs....

 

Sorry Sir Less...Pompey and the FA need you more than us..

 

 

Come on Nigel ADKINS......YOU ARE THE MAN...

 

OVER TO YOU SIR.

 

 

WIFM

 

Pardew is history, get over it. It will do no one any good banging on and on about Pardew. What is the point in trying to find out the truth about why Pardew got the sack in the summer ? Seriously, you are becoming obsessed. No, it is time to bury that bit of history, gloss it all over and move on.

[Badger]

I know that Chamberlain is playing well at the moment but we are in serious danger of running him into the ground. I would start with Mills and then have Chamberlain as an impact sub, where I think he would have more of an impact. I just can't see where goals are going to come from when Mills and Holmes are our two options coming off the bench.

 

I'd prefer Dickson as LM for the timebeing.

[Legod Third Coming]

I have read many of your past posts across this and other fora assuming you were also LGSC. So I am puzzled by your logic. The thread was about whether we had to accept it was unlikely that we will go up. It is about our chances of promotion and they in turn depend upon the % of League games we win.

 

Cortese also seems to not care what the win ratio is but cared more about "co-operation with the training dept and investing (nett) more cash in Les Reed's empire this summer than the 1st team".

 

Just as Lowe cared more about having "a radio station, Sir Clive Woodward's empire and 1st class catering"

 

I was being sarcastic my friend...

[Charlie Wayman]

What has amazed me most is that Adkins probably signed a contract with Cortese guaranteeing him promotion. If he doesn't achieve it he may have to resign. Is he confident, just plain daft or does he know something we don't.

 

I'd have to say right now we look more like relegation material than promotion candidates.

[Smirking_Saint]

Er, I wonder if that's because Manchester United and Chelsea achieved higher win ratios?

 

No you're right, who gives a bugger how many matches a manager wins or how often. Just so long as he only wins the ones that matter...

 

You really are just ignoring the points i am trying to make, so i will take my head away from the brickwall.

[Jonnyboy]

i will do a huge face palm if we finish 7th

[offix]

The original post seems wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too premature. Adkins still has a long time to make it happen

[Smirking_Saint]

i will do a huge face palm if we finish 7th

 

I am willing to put £10 to a charity of your choice if we get promoted if you do the same if we fail.

 

Anyone else want to lay it down ?? would be nice to see a big Saints Web donation from either a positive or negative side.

[Legod Third Coming]

You really are just ignoring the points i am trying to make, so i will take my head away from the brickwall.

 

I agree with your other points, but there is no way to judge a manager other the the volume of games he has won - so a win ratio is by far and away the best guide, surely? It's not about team's win ratios but managers - look across Mourinho's career and you will see his is a winner wherever he goes, same with Wenger, Ferguson, Ancelotti and so on.

 

According to the logic of some that is immaterial because they are always managing top clubs - I don't agree. Top managers, managing top clubs are there competing against the same. And becuase they are winners, they are selected by top clubs...

 

Now, you might say, well Pardew had more resources at his disposal than anyone else in this division - true. Those exact same resources were available to Dean Wilkins (win ratio 0%) and are now available to Nigel Adkins (win ratio 0% - unfair assessment at 9:24 this morning I concur). The point I am making (and the players/current results are helping no end) is that players are nothing without a good manager and his results indicate Pardew was a good manager - at least for us, while he was here. People who say otherwise are simply ignoring the facts - which current evidence is only supporting.

 

To say 'oh win ratios, they're situational' doesn't really stand up to scrutiny and that's what I was objecting to - people are judging Pardew on his failure to be promoted (agreed) but then spinning this back into some sort of inability to win games - cobblers.

 

All that said, I am 100% behind Adkins and believe we have the resources to go up with him - in fact I have put good money on it.

 

If we don't, people will then be forced to re-appraise Pardew's ability as manager. And for people to blame him for our current state is bordering on lunacy. Otherwise, all of Pardew's results should be attributed to Jan Poortvliet.

[70's Mike]

personally i do not yet accept the orginal post

[Wes Tender]

It is a 10,000 metre final at the Olympic games. The runners arrive at the first corner and what's this? The World and Olympic champion and 10,000 metre World record holder is bringing up the rear of the field! Catastrophe! He's obviously ruined his chances of another Olympic Gold. His career is over, he's a has been. It's now only between the first three runners for the gold,silver and bronze, everybody else is out of it.

 

Of course, it couldn't be that others have gone off too quickly and might tire. It couldn't happen that there is another "Zola Budd" type incident that puts the leader out of the race.

 

Those who believe for one minute that we have ruined our chances of automatic promotion because we have had our usual slow start and take no account of all of the possible twists and turns of the season, are complete idiots.

 

For ourselves, we have players returning to strengthen our squad. We can also strengthen by loans and signings. Conversely other teams might be weakened by losing players either through them leaving or through injuries and suspensions. So we have had a poor start, but ended the last season strongly. There have been plenty of examples historically of teams seemingly running away with the title only to splutter and falter within the last half dozen games.

 

A bit of perspective is needed by many.

[Toadhall Saint]

personally i do not yet accept the orginal post

 

Me neither.

[ottery st mary]

Pardew is history, get over it. It will do no one any good banging on and on about Pardew. What is the point in trying to find out the truth about why Pardew got the sack in the summer ? Seriously, you are becoming obsessed. No, it is time to bury that bit of history, gloss it all over and move on.

 

 

Who is this Pardew you talk of?............Never heard of him..........

[Topcat]

................

Those who believe for one minute that we have ruined our chances of automatic promotion because we have had our usual slow start and take no account of all of the possible twists and turns of the season, are complete idiots.

..................

A bit of perspective is needed by many.

 

The stats indicate that our chances of automatic promotion are not ruined. But they are much worse than 2 weeks ago. If we win today, then we will at least see a "winning mentality" restored to the 1st team.

[BadgerBadger]

I'll not be accepting anything thank you very much. Where's there's hope........you'd make a sh1t football manager with an attitude like

[Saint Fan CaM]

Hoddle is history, get over it. It will do no one any good banging on and on about Hoddle. What is the point in trying to find out the truth about why Hoddle got the hump in the summer ? Seriously, I was becoming obsessed. No, it is time to bury that bit of history, gloss it all over and move on.

 

There...fixed it for you!

[Stoozer]

I still think we'll get automatic promotion this season. It seems you lot aren't happy unless you're unhappy! It's always doom and gloom for some on here.

[SW11_Saint]

As CB FRY points out. The top 2 normally gather approximate 2 points a game and we would need to win around 10 on the bounce to catch up.. That simply is not going to happen

 

Time to stop worrying about getting to the prem is the next 3 years... Quite frankly, it's embarrassing to read whilst we are 3rd bottom of division 3

I find such optimism so inspiring...

 

Remember Norwich, remember Sunderland the other year. It CAN be done.

[millbrooktonian]

Absolutely agree .

So their confidence is shot .I have never seen any player respond positively to being booed by his own supporters.

Puncheon needs to boosted even if his performances have been shocking.Booing him will not help .

He and Lambert look as though they are carrying more weight this seaon ?

The thing that I find most annoying is this idea that we have devine right to be in a higher division .

I want us to be a good footballing team whatever league we are in.

Lets all get behing Nigel and the boys today . Positivity not arrogance (we do not want to be seen as a Leeds) COYR

[david in sweden]

I wouldn't go that far TDD, but it is rather like starting with -10 points again isn't it?

[sadoldgit]

Although things are far from great right now there is no reason why we can't get promoted. Whether we will or not is another matter. Something was obviously wrong between Cortese and Pardew last season and went futher downhill in the summer. Not a great time to sack a decent manager and perhaps, if Cortese, was having doubts last season perhaps he should have bitten the bullet earlier. I still wonder what on earth went on between the 2 of them but the death of the owner and the broekn relationship between the CEO and ex manager means that the new guy has a hill to climb and apparently littel money to spend right now. It is all very disappointing given how well we did last year (after the slow start of course!). If we don't go up this year and there is no obvious improvement on what Pardew acheived last year, where does that leave Adkins?

[Topcat]

If we don't go up this year and there is no obvious improvement on what Pardew acheived last year, where does that leave Adkins?

 

It leaves Adkins F**ked.

[aintforever]

We will probably be bottom come Saturday morning so i think it's fair to say it is unlikely we will get promoted - being the worst team in the league and all.

[John B]

It leaves Adkins F**ked.

 

Last time Adkins got promoted S****horpe had less points than

Pardew and SFC got last season

[Professor]

Just in case being 22nd in the table hasn't caused reality to sink in yet, there was another indicator last night (Tues 21st) of how our team rates against the others in this division. Brighton beat Plymouth 2-0 away from home. This is the same Plymouth that came to St Marys on the first day of the season and beat Pardew's team 1-0. Brighton, who have been well below us in the football hierarchy for 20 years or more, are now 20 places above us in an automatic promotion slot! Meanwhile we look up the table to clubs like Rochdale, Tranmere, Yeovil......

 

At this rate, avoiding relegation will be this season's achievement if something isn't done soon. I don't want to see Saints playing Crawley next season and with our resources it shouldn't even be a wild contemplation but this club has no automatic right to succeed and if the first team isn't good enough it needs changing. Soon.

[Legod Third Coming]

Absolutely agree .

So their confidence is shot .I have never seen any player respond positively to being booed by his own supporters.

Puncheon needs to boosted even if his performances have been shocking.Booing him will not help .

He and Lambert look as though they are carrying more weight this seaon ?

The thing that I find most annoying is this idea that we have devine right to be in a higher division .

I want us to be a good footballing team whatever league we are in.

Lets all get behing Nigel and the boys today . Positivity not arrogance (we do not want to be seen as a Leeds) COYR

 

First, let me say I am against booing our own players. I've only done it once - to Fuller at Derby after he'd wasted yet another guilt edged opportunity. Two minutes later he scored a sensational volley... doh.

 

However, if a footballer cannot handle being bood by the crowd, he is not a good footballer. He simply does not have the mental strength.

 

What I would like to see is a Wayne Rooney style reaction. Bood by England fans in a friendly, does he go off and sulk? Does he need a manager's arm around his shoulders? No.

 

He comes out the next two games and single-handedly wins the matches with an inpsirational performance.

 

If Jason Puncheon is a footballer, wants to be a footballer, THAT is how you respond to criticism.

 

I want to breed sportsmen, not wafer thin mentally fragile prima donnas.

 

If I do a crap job, the most critical person of it, first and foremost is me. If other people notice - I do two things: 1. put my hands up. 2 roll my sleeves up.

[Wes Tender]

If I do a crap job, the most critical person of it, first and foremost is me. If other people notice - I do two things: 1. put my hands up. 2 roll my sleeves up.

 

Isn't it a bit more difficult rolling your sleeves up with your hands in the air?

[hackedoff]

Not for the first time we have ended up with a team with no pace,no fight and no bottle.

[Robsk II]

And now, as it stands, we are 3 points from third place.... Well done negative types!

 

We may still not go up, clearly, but at least we're headed in the right direction. Goes to show that hgue negativity so early in the season is rarely sensible.

[marc_saint]

And now, as it stands, we are 3 points from third place.... Well done negative types!

 

We may still not go up, clearly, but at least we're headed in the right direction. Goes to show that hgue negativity so early in the season is rarely sensible.

 

Quite right. In fact as it stands now, (Half time v Tranmere) the live table shows that there are only three points between Bournemouth in third place and Hartlepool in 15th. It's all very close.

[dune]

Thank **** we got rid of Pardew.

[dubai_phil]

Think the OP'er will have a little bit of a shock when he surfaces again....

 

And yes Dune, so far you cannot argue with that opinion

[Saint Without a Halo]

2 points of the play offs now and still only October! a lot to play for yet!

[Dalek2003]

As lots of people have said it is a really tight tsble and even Brighton can be caught.

[benjii]

Anyone on this thread who was being a boring negative, moaning, saying we're unlikely to go up....

 

You were wrong and you're a bit silly.

 

HTHTHTHTH

[John B]

Anyone on this thread who was being a boring negative, moaning, saying we're unlikely to go up....

 

You were wrong and you're a bit silly.

 

HTHTHTHTH

 

Well we have not gone up yet have we

 

 

But now that Lambert and Lallana are fit we ever every chance

 

 

Next weeks game is going to be interesting as Huddersfield had a good win today

 

Could be in the play off positions very soon

[Minty]

Bottom line is that making any kind of prediction, and certainly saying that 'it's time to accept' this, that or the other so early in the season is just plain silly.

 

Long, long way to go yet, but at least we're moving in the right direction and we should just celebrate that and let threads like this go.

[Robsk II]

Is that gentle chiding Minty? I was just commenting on what you are; how rash it can be to make sweeping assertions early. It's a looooong old season!

[dickyhale]

The bookmakers dont seem to think so.We are favorites to be Champions and Evens money to be promoted

http://www.oddschecker.com/football/english/league-one/winner

Edited 9 October, 2010 by dickyhale