The Pope

[Special K]

To be fair the church only has itself to blame for that due it's hypocrisy. They have absolutely no moral right to preach.

 

There are very sweeping statements on this thread that do nothing for the posters, other than show them to be as bigoted as those they accuse. I'm all for a bit of enlightened atheism, but this cheap sniping, based upon nothing more than tabloid-intelligent, preformed misjudgement, is all rather depressing.

[Saintandy666]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515

 

According to the pope, we are like Nazi's if we are atheists.

[dune]

There are very sweeping statements on this thread that do nothing for the posters, other than show them to be as bigoted as those they accuse. I'm all for a bit of enlightened atheism, but this cheap sniping, based upon nothing more than tabloid-intelligent, preformed misjudgement, is all rather depressing.

 

Is it a mis-judgement, or an ill informed view, to state that the catholic church covered up child abuse?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

I am sorry Andy but your hypocrisy is astounding. You clearly do not subscribe to its teachings but do not respect those that do. You are the bigot.

 

The Catholic Church is a cornerstone for millions and millions around the World and it is only right that its leader is given the appropriate treatment when he does visit. The Pope is a good man; you may disagree with his religion but do not demonise him. That Andy is intolerance.

 

The Pope helped protect perverts who had raped children. Let's be clear. He, and many other senior figures in his organisation, protected CHILD RAPISTS.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8587082.stm

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23369148-pope-led-cover-up-of-child-abuse-by-priests.do

Edited 16 September, 2010 by anothersaintinsouthsea

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

You were advocating not affording the thousands and thousands of Catholics in this country the right to an official visit to this country of their spiritual leader. Do Catholics not have rights?

 

You may not agree with these people's faith but you should respect their freedom to practise their religion.

 

Would Aids be so widespread if we all followed the Catholic Churches guidance on sex before marriage and staying faithful during marriage? Would there be such a demand for abortions if people were a little bit more selective on their partners? You may not agree with this lifestyle but perhaps you should try and look at the argument from their perspective. Maybe their argument is not quite so absurd.

[amsterdam]

To be fair the church only has itself to blame for that due it's hypocrisy. They have absolutely no moral right to preach.

 

They have no moral right to exist, let alone preach!

 

I will out myself as an "aggressive atheist" (as someone mentioned above (as if that were a negative thing?)), and I do hate to be dispiriting, but there is no Santa Claus, no Tooth Fairy, no Spaghetti Monster and no God - the fact that a large percentage of mature, intelligent people feel the need to believe in them is dispiriting...

 

Richie, I mean no disrespect to you, but your Christian religion IS providing the moral basis for the wars against Iraq and Afghanistan, and Yahweh (the god to whom you refer as "Our Father) promotes anything BUT love, tolerance and understanding. The other point that jarred a little with me your quote that "You cannot expect a religion to change thousands and thousands of years of history to accomodate say more liberal views"; Christianity can, by definition, be no more than 2,000 years old (and I believe most sources date the New Testament to around 400 A.D.) so you're hardly up there with the Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, Egyptians, etc. (What do you mean, you don't believe a man could kill his father and then marry his mother? It's been known for thousands of years...).

 

Even (wrongfully) ignoring all the scandals re: child abuse and hypocrisy, religion and religious opinions inhibit scientific progress and rational thinking.

 

I accept I won't change your opinion on a site dedicated to support of a football team, but I WOULD urge you to think, and open your mind to alternative theories...

 

But I agree with you about the MK Dons match (smiley thingy!)

[dune]

Would Aids be so widespread if we all followed the Catholic Churches guidance on sex before marriage and staying faithful during marriage? Would there be such a demand for abortions if people were a little bit more selective on their partners?

 

1. Condoms stop aids.

2. The abortions clinics in the NW do a roaring trade.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

The Pope helped protect perverts who had raped children. Let's be clear. He, and many other senior figures in his organisation, protected CHILD RAPISTS.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8587082.stm

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23369148-pope-led-cover-up-of-child-abuse-by-priests.do

 

When you have a billion Catholics there are very likely to be bad apples. It is not exactly in their rule book is it. What do you suggest that we do with practising Catholics in this country; lock them up? Maybe send them for re-education like something in 1984?

[Saintandy666]

When you have a billion Catholics there are very likely to be bad apples. It is not exactly in their rule book is it. What do you suggest that we do with practising Catholics in this country; lock them up? Maybe send them for re-education like something in 1984?

 

He protected them!!!!! He should at the very least hand them over to the proper authorities?

 

Also, it's not like it is any old catholics doings this, it is the priests...

 

I hope you are not seriously advocating keeping child rapists on the streets.

[dune]

When you have a billion Catholics there are very likely to be bad apples. It is not exactly in their rule book is it. What do you suggest that we do with practising Catholics in this country; lock them up? Maybe send them for re-education like something in 1984?

 

Nothing, but that doesn't mean to say the state should pay for their paedo protecting leader to visit.

[bpsaint]

**** the pope and his kiddy fiddling colleagues. Aparently Atheism is akin to Nazism these days,what a tool.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Not ****ging around is more effective at preventing aids.

 

Where is the NW? If we did not have one night stands then there would not be the need for abortions. What is wrong with thinking life is so sacred?

 

As it happens I believe people should live their lives how they wish and that includes going to Church. I am not going to rush out and judge people quickly.

[Smirking_Saint]

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

No I am simply telling you that you that I find the lynch mob hysterical reaction to a Papal visit is something that is more in place in Communist China than in a tolerant and free Britain.

[Smirking_Saint]

No I am simply telling you that you that I find the lynch mob hysterical reaction to a Papal visit is something that is more in place in Communist China than in a tolerant and free Britain.

 

Respect and tolerance for me is earned, and what with the Pope and the rest of his crew's insistance on continually repeating his bigoted views from an outdated religion then i will not give him any respect.

 

Let me make myself clear, i am not slamming christianity, i myself do not practice it as i take to life with more of a scientific and thought out approach. But i would never slam anyone for their religion, i will however respond with my views if someone tries to tell me i am wrong. Lets be clear, the christian religion is more flawed then scientific learnings if that arguement speaks out.

[dune]

No I am simply telling you that you that I find the lynch mob hysterical reaction to a Papal visit is something that is more in place in Communist China than in a tolerant and free Britain.

 

Are you suggesting we should be tolerant of an institution that covers up for and protects paedophiles? That is what the Catholic church is.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

No I am saying you should respect those people for whom their religion is very nimportant to them.

[dune]

No I am saying you should respect those people for whom their religion is very nimportant to them.

 

I have already said i respect Catholics for their beliefs, but equally I am perfectly entitled to utterly disrespect the Catholic church and that doddering old fool (the pope) for his and it's double standards and hypocrisy.

[Saintandy666]

No I am saying you should respect those people for whom their religion is very nimportant to them.

 

You have totally missed the point of what we are saying. We aren't criticising the pope because he is Catholic. We are criticising him because of his bigoted views and perhaps more importantly the way he IGNORED child abuse and RAPE. Yes... child abuse and rape.

[dune]

You have totally missed the point of what we are saying. We aren't criticising the pope because he is Catholic. We are criticising him because of his bigoted views and perhaps more importantly the way he IGNORED child abuse and RAPE. Yes... child abuse and rape.

 

The protection of the church is more important to him than the protection of children and therefore he has absolutely no moral standing or right to lecture/preach on how anyone should live their lives.

[solentstars]

just saw part of the pope show on sky news and was wondering why-and like the anglian church that there were no women bishops on show but loads of men

[Robsk II]

AIDS

 

Nuff said, really. The catholic church has a long, long history of not doing the right thing to help people. Look at Pope Alexander VI, Rodrigo Borgia. Look at failure to condemn the Nazi regime. How can you believe it comes straight from god in those situations? How can you believe the papacy is infallible? How can you believe the catholic faith is right in standing idly by and saying things like 'condoms spread aids' and sh*t like that?

[dune]

[Big John]

I have a very close friend, a divorcee, who is married to a divorcee. She is a Catholic.

 

Her ex was an extremely abusive alcoholic but due to him being married prior to them getting married, her church did not recognise their union.

 

Her second husband divorced from his first wife at an relatively young age, his first wife was a bit of a slapper.

 

The catholic church refuses to recognise any of the marriages apart from her hubbies first ones.

 

Any organised religion that expects a man to remain married to a sluttish woman, or a woman to reamin married to a man who punches and rapes her is in my opinion lacking in something pretty basic regarding setting rules for us to follow.

 

having said that, some of my best friends are catholic.

[Robsk II]

A couple of my best friends are catholics who gave it up given that it's a load of sh*t.

[Special K]

Is it a mis-judgement, or an ill informed view, to state that the catholic church covered up child abuse?

 

Of course not, but the demonisation of an organisation (for want of a better phrase) that counts over 1.1 billion people amongst it's ranks for the acts of relatively few individuals is, not IMHO, a sensible thing to do. I don't think the decisions of the papacy to keep schtum was right at all (in fact completely abhorrant), but there were comments on this thread that just disregarded Catholicism completely. I just think sweeping disregard for peoples faith is a petty and small minded thing to do. After all, look at your Sarah Palin thread and you'll see that Christine O Donnell (who you appear to be putting forward as a solution to the worlds economic ills) is a staunch Catholic and defender of the Papacy. oh well, nothing is ever simple is it!

Edited 16 September, 2010 by Special K
cant spell, too much wine already...

[Special K]

They have no moral right to exist, let alone preach!

 

I will out myself as an "aggressive atheist" (as someone mentioned above (as if that were a negative thing?)), and I do hate to be dispiriting, but there is no Santa Claus, no Tooth Fairy, no Spaghetti Monster and no God - the fact that a large percentage of mature, intelligent people feel the need to believe in them is dispiriting...

 

Richie, I mean no disrespect to you, but your Christian religion IS providing the moral basis for the wars against Iraq and Afghanistan, and Yahweh (the god to whom you refer as "Our Father) promotes anything BUT love, tolerance and understanding. The other point that jarred a little with me your quote that "You cannot expect a religion to change thousands and thousands of years of history to accomodate say more liberal views"; Christianity can, by definition, be no more than 2,000 years old (and I believe most sources date the New Testament to around 400 A.D.) so you're hardly up there with the Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, Egyptians, etc. (What do you mean, you don't believe a man could kill his father and then marry his mother? It's been known for thousands of years...).

 

Even (wrongfully) ignoring all the scandals re: child abuse and hypocrisy, religion and religious opinions inhibit scientific progress and rational thinking.

 

I accept I won't change your opinion on a site dedicated to support of a football team, but I WOULD urge you to think, and open your mind to alternative theories...

 

But I agree with you about the MK Dons match (smiley thingy!)

 

No, the fact that you appear to be so intolerant of anyone who has anything resembling a faith or belief outside of strict scientific explanation is dispiriting.

[Robsk II]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/celebrity/queen-to-have-lunch-with-insane-criminal-201009163093/

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

You have totally missed the point of what we are saying. We aren't criticising the pope because he is Catholic. We are criticising him because of his bigoted views and perhaps more importantly the way he IGNORED child abuse and RAPE. Yes... child abuse and rape.[/QUOT

 

As he is the spritual leader of the Catholic church then that is one in the same thing. The vicious assault on the Pope stems more from the fact that people are not tolerant of the teachings of the Catholic Church than the personality involved. Anti Catholicalism pure and simple; exactly the same as racism or anti semitism.

[Saintandy666]

As he is the spritual leader of the Catholic church then that is one in the same thing. The vicious assault on the Pope stems more from the fact that people are not tolerant of the teachings of the Catholic Church than the personality involved. Anti Catholicalism pure and simple; exactly the same as racism or anti semitism.

 

No it isn't. I don't know if I can be bothered to argue my point again as you are beyond belief.

 

The pope harboured and protected the secrets of people HE KNEW to abuse and rape children. Where is that in the beliefs of Catholicism?

 

Read my original post for more enlightenment.

[Robsk II]

It's all about love, apparently. Andy, you should listen to that. Inappropriate and paedophilic love of boys in your care or influence, naturally.

[saintjay77]

No, the fact that you appear to be so intolerant of anyone who has anything resembling a faith or belief outside of strict scientific explanation is dispiriting.

 

So we should sceintifically believe in an invisible manthat turned up 65 million years after the world was created claiming that it was all his idea, thank him for aids, cancer, peodo's, rapists and murderers cause somehow they are part of his plan too. Then accept that he protected the worst kind of human beings to protect his religion and invisible man above protecting the innocent gods children that stood in the way. And then on top of that we should be happy that so much of our tax money has been spanked on a visit that only invisible man supporting people want?

 

Like I said before, if the catholic church want him to visit then the catholic church can sell some of there gold to pay for his visit. I couldn't give a monkeys if he doesn't visit and in fact, with the economy the way it is I would rather the £12 or so million be spent on cancer research or child sex crime prevention.

[Gorgiesaint]

As he is the spritual leader of the Catholic church then that is one in the same thing. The vicious assault on the Pope stems more from the fact that people are not tolerant of the teachings of the Catholic Church than the personality involved. Anti Catholicalism pure and simple; exactly the same as racism or anti semitism.

 

So basically, you're complaining that people are judging the pope - in exactly the way that you have just judged everyone who is against this visit. I think thats called hypocrisy and is what the catholic church is famous for (IMO). And please, just because I think that the catholic church should have paid for this visit and I am not catholic myself that does not make me a nazi or racist in any way.

[dune]

Roman Catholicism is no different to the Commonwealth. By 380 AD the Roman Empire was on its last legs and they jumped on the bandwagon of Christianity as a way of mainting control. When the British empire was on its last legs we introduced the commonwealth. Roman Catholicism isn't a religion, it's a throwback to empire.

[GenevaSaint]

A couple of my best friends are catholics who gave it up given that it's a load of sh*t.

 

Does that also count for the Church of England? Also a "load of ****" or is it just Catholics that get these bigoted views?

[dune]

Does that also count for the Church of England? Also a "load of ****" or is it just Catholics that get these bigoted views?

 

please keep on topic.

[GenevaSaint]

No it isn't. I don't know if I can be bothered to argue my point again as you are beyond belief.

 

The pope harboured and protected the secrets of people HE KNEW to abuse and rape children. Where is that in the beliefs of Catholicism?

 

Read my original post for more enlightenment.

 

So if it was Pope John Paul II you'd be welcoming him with open arms right?

[GenevaSaint]

please keep on topic.

 

It is, the ginger one said his friends gave up catholocism as it was a load of ****, just trying to work put if he's bigoted or doesn't like all religions. Personnally while we're at it Dune I think the queen is a dodeder old ***** as well at the head of a religion.

 

OH, btw when did you become a moderator? Keep on topic you ******.

Edited 17 September, 2010 by GenevaSaint

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

No it isn't. I don't know if I can be bothered to argue my point again as you are beyond belief.

 

The pope harboured and protected the secrets of people HE KNEW to abuse and rape children. Where is that in the beliefs of Catholicism?

 

Read my original post for more enlightenment.

 

I am sorry what part of this are you struggling to understand;

 

The Pope should have a State visit because he is the spiritual leader of 1 billion people. 6 Million of them in the UK.

 

They have different views to you so you assume they are bigoted. Can you answer this question for me Andy;

 

If people did not have sex before marriage or even became less promiscious. If people kept to one partner in a strong family unit would Aids have spread so quickly? Would there be the need for so many abortions?(that is yes or no answer Andy not whether you think people should have to or not).

 

If you answer no then finally you are now able to see the 'bigoted' issues from a Catholics point of view.

Edited 17 September, 2010 by Sergei Gotsmanov

[dune]

If people did not have sex before marriage or even became less promiscious. If people kept to one partner in a strong family unit would Aids have spread so quickly?

 

Have you ever considered where AIDS came from? It is my view that AIDS was introduced through WHO inoculations to combat the Marxist threat and the Illuminati were behind this. Could this explain the Catholic churches unwillingness to recomend the use of condoms?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Have you ever considered where AIDS came from? It is my view that AIDS was introduced through WHO inoculations to combat the Marxist threat and the Illuminati were behind this. Could this explain the Catholic churches unwillingness to recomend the use of condoms?

 

No because if you have less sex you will be very unlikley to get aids. Can you not see that Dune?

[dune]

No because if you have less sex you will be very unlikley to get aids. Can you not see that Dune?

 

So are you saying it's gods punishment?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

So are you saying it's gods punishment?

 

I have never heard this said by Catholics.

[trousers]

You just can't generalise

 

Why not? Isn't that where most people fit? In the 'general/average' pool.

 

I say we should generalise more. It's the specific polarised views that cause more damage.

 

IMHO of course.

[GenevaSaint]

Have you ever considered where AIDS came from? It is my view that AIDS was introduced through WHO inoculations to combat the Marxist threat and the Illuminati were behind this. Could this explain the Catholic churches unwillingness to recomend the use of condoms?

 

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

 

You are so deluded it must hurt mush. That's the funniest thing I've heard in years.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

When you have a billion Catholics there are very likely to be bad apples. It is not exactly in their rule book is it. What do you suggest that we do with practising Catholics in this country; lock them up? Maybe send them for re-education like something in 1984?

 

What a rediculous response, the second half of your sentance is just irrelevant to anything I've said. You mention a billion catholics - I'm not talking about a billion catholics, I'm talking about Catholic priests. Stop trying to make out that I'm attacking all catholics. Of course there will be bad apples in any organisation but we're talking about systematic covering up of child rape over many decades, throught the organisation - and Ratzinger was part of it.

[fish fingers]

Have you ever considered where AIDS came from? It is my view that AIDS was introduced through WHO inoculations to combat the Marxist threat and the Illuminati were behind this. Could this explain the Catholic churches unwillingness to recomend the use of condoms?

 

Sounds like the next Dan Brown book.

[saintjay77]

No because if you have less sex you will be very unlikley to get aids. Can you not see that Dune?

 

Trouble is, scientifically speaking, diseases evolve along with everything else. So while you can look at the prime cause for Aids spreading to be sexual encounters its only a matter of time before another deadly virus hits the human race via another method. Bird flu has been the closest so far but I doubt that is blamed on gay birds.

 

Religions seem very quick to jump on the wagon against anything that appears to be wrong in their story book, and that goes for all religions. They all have some kind of book that they follow and they all interperet them differenetly. Some more extreme than others but all of them seem pretty potty to me.

 

The basics of being a better person is fine with me but I dont need a story book to tell me not to sleep around un protected. Or to tell me how the world was made or how an invisible man will help me if i pray.

[Robsk II]

Geneva, I feel that way about all religion, really.

 

Saintjay, I'm with you. Although actually, I can't really say I'm athiest, because I can't claim to know for sure there isn't a god. But I'm on that side of agnosticism. To me, an empiricist, there's a whole lot more proof of no god than the other way around, and that's what swings my main view. There are so many religions that it looks like a social or evolutionary artefact to me.. and frankly, rather than saying 'well one must be right', I think it just suggests that none are right.

 

I think you can live an ok life without having to go on some ancient, much changed (infalliable? Hah. There's so much evidence to prove it's changed many, many times and been added toor tailored to suit the agendas or various individuals and organisations) book. Books like that were written as, variously, moral guidelines using the traditional medium of parables etc, or forms of political and social control (sometimes for good, to be fair - ie against public health risks, see Kosher etc) for the sort of people who can't be half decent without someone telling them how to behave. The sort of people who are happy to simply believe what they are told, without enquiring mind; those who see enquiry itself as a sort of betrayal of faith. People who need something else to hang on, because they lack enough internal fibre to accept that the world is not fair, death is final, and loads of stuff is terrifying. Comfort yourselves, people. The meek shall inherit.. no they won't. They are f*cked in the sh*tbox by the rich, and there is no consequence for either outside of this mortal coil. The kind of people who see facts and evidence as a sort of slight against them, and never see anything strange about the church changing stances on things; ie the question of heaven and what / where it is, which has shifted continually every time one version has been debunked... these people also make excuses for terrible acts by those working in the name of the faith, right up to the Pope, by calling it human influence or whatever.. and yet STILL claim the Pope can't be wrong on his views on contraception. If society changes and religion adapts to meet it, and that is just god's way.. then why maintain this charade around sexual health? People should act decently around it, sure. But abstinence isn't the only answer. People have and always will sleep around. Frankly, most of us like ****ging. Maybe your lot should spend more time enjoying yourselves instead of telling everyone what not to enjoy. More can be achieved by education and good parenting than by a book. No-one in my remotely close family is religious, and we're vaguely succesful members of society. In fact, the only real freaks and mess-ups are the distant part of the family, the one tiny fragment that are hardcore god-squad. That's divine provdence right there.

[Joensuu]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515

 

According to the pope, we are like Nazi's if we are atheists.

 

**** the pope and his kiddy fiddling colleagues. Aparently Atheism is akin to Nazism these days,what a tool.

 

So we have to fund the Pope's jolly jaunt, and now when he gets to our country he has the nerve to slander my chosen 'religion' (aka cold rational evidence-based science), how very dare he?

 

 

Does that give me the right to slander his chosen religion? You know, 'an eye for an eye' etc...

Edited 17 September, 2010 by Joensuu