Everybody out.....

[badgerx16]

I don't think that anyone not even the most extreme socialist would now support tax rates at that level

If only because it's untenable - anybody earning at that level will find a clever accountant/banker to help them squirrel it away beyond the grasp of HMRC.

[Chin Strain]

"

General Secretary Matt Wrack (formerly involved with Militant tendency)said: ‘It’s very easy for people who do not risk their lives fighting fires to sneer at people who do.

 

‘Mr McGuirk is among the highest paid fire chiefs in the country, getting more than £200,000 a year. He is massively overpaid.

‘For that money we could get six fully trained firefighters, which would be a much better use of scarce resources.’ "

 

 

 

 

‘We’ve got some bone idle people in the public sector. There, I said it – bone idle people.’

 

How many fire fighters could you get for the price of one Matt Wrack and all of his chronies?

[solentstars]

The financial crisis of 2007 to the present is a crisis triggered by a liquidity shortfall in the United States banking system [1] It has resulted in the collapse of large financial institutions, the bailout of banks by national governments and downturns in stock markets around the world. In many areas, the housing market has also suffered, resulting in numerous evictions, foreclosures and prolonged vacancies. It is considered by many economists to be the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression of the 1930s.[2] It contributed to the failure of key businesses, declines in consumer wealth estimated in the trillions of U.S. dollars, substantial financial commitments incurred by governments, and a significant decline in economic activity.[3] Many causes have been suggested, with varying weight assigned by experts.[4] Both market-based and regulatory solutions have been implemented or are under consideration,[5] while significant risks remain for the world economy over the 2010–2011 periods.[6]

The collapse of a global housing bubble, which peaked in the U.S. in 2006, caused the values of securities tied to real estate pricing to plummet thereafter, damaging financial institutions globally.[7] Questions regarding bank solvency, declines in credit availability, and damaged investor confidence had an impact on global stock markets, where securities suffered large losses during late 2008 and early 2009. Economies worldwide slowed during this period as credit tightened and international trade declined.[8] Critics argued that credit rating agencies and investors failed to accurately price the risk involved with mortgage-related financial products, and that governments did not adjust their regulatory practices to address 21st century financial markets.[9] Governments and central banks responded with unprecedented fiscal stimulus, monetary policy expansion, and institutional bailouts.

[Chin Strain]

If only because it's untenable - anybody earning at that level will find a clever accountant/banker to help them squirrel it away beyond the grasp of HMRC.

 

No, if only because it's ridiculous.

[solentstars]

If there was a listing of individually initiated financial disasters, the depredations of Ponzi-schemer Bernard Madoff might rank at the top, but opinions may differ on how much of an insurance catastrophe he has created.

 

Mr. Madoff—who was arrested in December 2008 and finally sent to prison for 150 years this June—is credited with ripping off clients of his Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC to the tune of between $10 billion and $20 billion.

 

“How could they have done a proper audit of the assets of a hedge fund if assets weren’t really there? We now know that Madoff didn’t even trade for the last 13 years, so there was a real lack of due diligence on the part of the hedge funds and their auditors,” she said.

[bridge too far]

No, if only because it's ridiculous.

 

Whilst 80% might be a bit much, it's interesting to see that the UK isn't the highest taxing country. The Scandinavian countries are and I don't see a mass exodus from there. In fact their social support systems (child care etc.) are better than ours.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_of_Europe

[thefunkygibbons]

A headline rate comparison is never straight forward

 

For example, the highest rate of income tax is 61% which is the impact of the clawback of personal allowances have at those who earn just over £100k

 

In addition, to make a comparison you need to know what reliefs and offsets are available

[trousers]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1312092/School-special-needs-gravy-train-Staff-focus-pupils-emotional-problems.html

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1312124/Special-needs-industry-What-pupils-need-taught-properly.html

[trousers]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1312079/State-workers-private-employees-pay-pensions.html

[thefunkygibbons]

Whilst 80% might be a bit much,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_of_Europe

 

exactly

 

It comes back to two questions

1. What is the purpose of a tax rate - if it is to maximise the tax take, then the Laffer curve applies and there is no merit in very high rates as the take declines. I would suggest that the 50% rate, especially when combined with the restrictions in personal allowances and National insurance is certainly close to, if not beyond the inflection point for the UK

2. Are headline rates just for political show. In the case of the 50% rate, I am sure that it was introduced for exactly that reason. The amount of tax earned by such a rate is relatively small. If you want to raise revenue you need to hit the bulk of the population, which means either the main rate of income tax, or another tax with a wide base such as VAT

[Chin Strain]

Whilst 80% might be a bit much, it's interesting to see that the UK isn't the highest taxing country. The Scandinavian countries are and I don't see a mass exodus from there. In fact their social support systems (child care etc.) are better than ours.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_of_Europe

 

BTF, the point was between a higher rate tax of 50% and the 80% suggested. Your examples are at 55% max which doesn't really prove your point about mass exodus. Like you (I suspect) I don't know the ins and outs of the tax bandings, VAT rates etc in Scandinavian countries. The overall tax may be less than ours.....it may be more. They may pay no road tax, low fuel tax, high VAT.

 

Do you know for a fact that their social support systems are better than ours?

[dune]

DIANE ABBOTT: PROTECT WOMEN AND BLACK WORKERS FROM JOB CUTS

 

LABOUR leader candidate Diane Abbott was plunged into a new race storm last night after calling for black public-sector workers to be shielded from job cuts.

 

The Left-wing MP claimed ethnic background and gender should be considered when drawing up hit-lists for redundancy in the Government’s austerity drive.

 

But that sparked fury with critics warning that putting white men at the front of the queue for the sack risked inflaming racial tensions.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/199632/Diane-Abbott-Protect-women-and-black-workers-from-job-cuts

 

 

Earlier this year, Ms Abbott clashed with broadcaster Andrew Neil when she defended her decision to send her son to £12,700-a- year school despite her opposition to private education by saying: “West Indian mums will go to the wall for their children.”

 

She's a typical Socialist is Abbot.

Edited 15 September, 2010 by dune

[Chin Strain]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1312092/School-special-needs-gravy-train-Staff-focus-pupils-emotional-problems.html

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1312124/Special-needs-industry-What-pupils-need-taught-properly.html

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1312079/State-workers-private-employees-pay-pensions.html

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1312093/Fire-chief-Tony-McGuirk-s-devastating-verdict-bone-idle-public-sector.html

 

So which paper do you read Trousers?

[trousers]

So which paper do you read Trousers?

 

The Guardian of course.... ;-) I'm just a very balanced open-minded individual..... or should that be empty minded....?

[bridge too far]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1312079/State-workers-private-employees-pay-pensions.html

 

From that link, and the important (but buried) important point:

 

"The TUC said workers in the public sector are increasingly well educated, and that many of the lowest-grade blue collar jobs, such as cleaning and maintenance, have been outsourced to the private sector.

 

Adam Lent, head of economics at the TUC, said: ‘You can’t make direct comparisons-between the public and private sector workforce.

 

‘The public sector has many more professional and highly skilled workers within it than the private sector"

 

[url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1312079/State-workers-private-employees-pay-pensions.html#ixzz0zaQ1larF][/url]

 

Since many of the lowest paid (catering, cleaning) have been outsourced that distorts the averages for both sectors. A like for like comparison should be made.

 

I'll give you a for instance. My daughter and her friend are both IT project managers. They both worked for a housing association. My daughter's friend was offered a job doing exactly the same work with a private sector company contracted to supply maintenance to housing associations. She ended up earning twice the salary that my daughter earned.

 

Same job, different sector.

 

When I was both a project manager and an auditor for the NHS I earned considerably less than my private sector colleagues doing the same level of work.

 

Same job, different sector.

[bridge too far]

The Guardian of course.... ;-) I'm just a very balanced open-minded individual..... or should that be empty minded....?

 

Or, perhaps, narrow minded if you only read the Mail

[badgerx16]

The Tory parish magazines ( Daily Heil, Torygraph, and Express ) are merely putting out the blue rinse propaganda machine's response to the debates at the TUC conference. There is always a ( very small ) nugget of truth in these stories, but inevitably both sides will severely distort this to satisfy their salivating target audiences. These are merely the opening skirmishes in what will increasingly become a very dirty war, and those that suffer will be the service users of the public sector; and the less well off you are, the more it will hurt.

[Whitey Grandad]

Whilst 80% might be a bit much, it's interesting to see that the UK isn't the highest taxing country. The Scandinavian countries are and I don't see a mass exodus from there. In fact their social support systems (child care etc.) are better than ours.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_of_Europe

 

These tables don't include the effects of employers' payroll taxes. In the UK you must also consider the employers' NI contributions which are just as much a part of an individual's tax as PAYE. They are a tax on your salary which is taken before you even see it.

[CB Saint]

These tables don't include the effects of employers' payroll taxes. In the UK you must also consider the employers' NI contributions which are just as much a part of an individual's tax as PAYE. They are a tax on your salary which is taken before you even see it.

 

In Norway i believe its about 14% and rises based on employees earnings.

 

That said, The high tax rates mean that everone is paid much higher salaries and as a result the cost of just about everything is far higher that the UK. The scandinavian countries have the same issues. Norway, even with their oil income, have a long term pension problem.

[dune]

£7,000 A YEAR PAY GAP BETWEEN PUBLIC AND PRIVATE SECTOR

 

PUBLIC sector workers are £7,000 a year better off on average than their private sector counterparts, government research reports.

 

The average total weekly wage for full-timers in the state sector – including employers’ pension contributions – was £615 compared with £479 for those in private industry.

 

 

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/199618/-7-000-a-year-pay-gap-between-public-and-private-sector

[badgerx16]

£7,000 A YEAR PAY GAP BETWEEN PUBLIC AND PRIVATE SECTOR

 

PUBLIC sector workers are £7,000 a year better off on average than their private sector counterparts, government research reports.

 

The average total weekly wage for full-timers in the state sector – including employers’ pension contributions – was £615 compared with £479 for those in private industry.

 

 

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/199618/-7-000-a-year-pay-gap-between-public-and-private-sector

 

What an absolutely pointless statistical generalisation that report is. There is no hiding the fact that the lowest paid workers in the country are in the private sector; a combination of zero-hour contracts, contracting out of the lower paid manual workers from the public sector, jobs such as hospitality and agriculture being solely private sector based, and non-compliance with minimum wage legislation, all lead to this - but that doesn't mean the public sector is overpaid. This report also points out that the top paid x% are all in the private sector.

The key comparisons are 'like for like' jobs, particularly skilled professional 'technical' posts, and I suspect that there is at best parity, and more often than not a lower wage in the public sector.

Edited 15 September, 2010 by badgerx16

[View From The Top]

Strange that all the whinging going on on this thread is from those in the private sector and ignorance of the fact that pay freezes and cuts have been felt across all sectors.

 

No one forced any of us into out current jobs. We are all free to leave for better jobs so instead of whinging like a 3yo kid do something about where you find yourself.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

£7,000 A YEAR PAY GAP BETWEEN PUBLIC AND PRIVATE SECTOR

 

PUBLIC sector workers are £7,000 a year better off on average than their private sector counterparts, government research reports.

 

The average total weekly wage for full-timers in the state sector – including employers’ pension contributions – was £615 compared with £479 for those in private industry.

 

 

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/199618/-7-000-a-year-pay-gap-between-public-and-private-sector

 

I was going to reply to this and then I saw badgerx16 already made you look like a cretin, AGAIN!

 

I see even Mervyn King is coming out now seeking to calm the Unions...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11300291

Edited 15 September, 2010 by Thorpe-le-Saint

[Fuengirola Saint]

****in let the footballers **** off to Spain ( or come here to Spain ;-) ) They earn far far too much, i'ts obscene 100,000 GBP a week? I've heard many a Saints fan comment how much more they are enjoying football down here in league one than before in the Premier league watching the preening tossers like Lampard, Terry and Beckham..

[Fuengirola Saint]

These tables don't include the effects of employers' payroll taxes. In the UK you must also consider the employers' NI contributions which are just as much a part of an individual's tax as PAYE. They are a tax on your salary which is taken before you even see it.

 

Here in Spain employers pay social security contributions as well, i know i was an employer, not sure what it is in England but here it was 170€ a month for a part timer

[Johnny Bognor]

What an absolutely pointless statistical generalisation that report is. There is no hiding the fact that the lowest paid workers in the country are in the private sector; a combination of zero-hour contracts, contracting out of the lower paid manual workers from the public sector, jobs such as hospitality and agriculture being solely private sector based, and non-compliance with minimum wage legislation, all lead to this - but that doesn't mean the public sector is overpaid. This report also points out that the top paid x% are all in the private sector.

The key comparisons are 'like for like' jobs, particularly skilled professional 'technical' posts, and I suspect that there is at best parity, and more often than not a lower wage in the public sector.

 

See:

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloa...9/2009_pps.pdf

 

Then download table 13.7a

 

The Public Sector are better paid in every percentile, excluding the top 20% of all earners, which has been the case since 1984. (This does not take account of job security, pensions, holidays, paid sick and all the other benefits enjoyed by public sector workers.....and inset days + free lunch on inset days provided to teachers).

 

Also, in table 13.9a, private sector workers work more hours in every percentile when compared to public sector workers, so we move on to table 13.5a which shows:

1. The bottom 10% of earners in the private sector earn £5.99 per hour (compared to £7.34 in the public sector)

2. If you are a middle earner in the private sector you get £11.84 compared to £14.95 in the public sector

3. In the top 10% of earners, the average private sector worker enjoys £24.29 per hour which is LESS than the top 10% in the public sector who get £24.77 per hour.

 

 

Therefore I think we should make fat cat public servants pay more in tax.

[LGTL]

Once again a Government are managing to pit the Public and Private Sectors against each other in a war of "who works harder/gets better benefits/more pay" in order to cover up their own failings. It happened with the previous lot and I see it being no different now. I've worked in both sectors and the average worker really isn't that different, just trying to earn enough and have enough benefits to have an enjoyable lifestyle. Problem is, the top 1% in each Sector ruin it for the remaining 99%, and on going discussions like this occur.

[bridge too far]

Once again a Government are managing to pit the Public and Private Sectors against each other in a war of "who works harder/gets better benefits/more pay" in order to cover up their own failings. It happened with the previous lot and I see it being no different now. I've worked in both sectors and the average worker really isn't that different, just trying to earn enough and have enough benefits to have an enjoyable lifestyle. Problem is, the top 1% in each Sector ruin it for the remaining 99%, and on going discussions like this occur.

 

Very sensible and very true.

 

Good old 'divide and rule' eh?

[dune]

Divide and rule lol.

 

The public sector have long needed dragging kicking and screaming into the real world and now is the time to kill off the communist Unions once and for all by completing the privatisations programme started under Mrs T. Now the Socialists are in opposition the opportunity to crush their failed public sector ideals must be seized.

[JustMike]

Whem you allow Socialists in for 13 years you are always going to end up with a ruined economy and a mountain of debt, because the whole Socialist philosophy is a failed philosophy.

 

hmmm yes, because the Torries did so much better didnt they. Now, where did i put my tin of beans and camp fire lighter

[JustMike]

Divide and rule lol.

 

The public sector have long needed dragging kicking and screaming into the real world and now is the time to kill off the communist Unions once and for all by completing the privatisations programme started under Mrs T. Now the Socialists are in opposition the opportunity to crush their failed public sector ideals must be seized.

 

hahaha yes because all the privatisations she started did soooo well didnt they.

[badgerx16]

See:

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloa...9/2009_pps.pdf

 

Johnny B, what that table show is that the bottom 10% of public sector workers are better paid than the botom 10% of private sector, and so on for each percentile - it does not counter my point that like for like in terms of the job function the public sector is quite possibly worse off. I could also point out that the quoted MEAN ( ie average ) salary on table 13.7 shows £25344 for public sector and £27451 for the private, so you can prove anything with statistics !

[LGTL]

Dune shouldn't be allowed on these threads until he accepts that New Labour were not Socialist. I have reminded him of this many times, yet he always manages to avoid it. He is a blatant troll!

[solentstars]

Bank of England governor Mervyn King has blamed financial firms and policy-makers for the economic crisis, admitting: "We let it slip."

 

Addressing the TUC's annual congress, Mr King told unions they were "entitled to be angry" about higher unemployment and the bail-out of banks. Mr King told delegates: "Recent times have indeed been turbulent. After a decade-and-a-half of stability, with rising employment and living standards, came the crisis and recession - the biggest economic upheaval since the Great Depression.

 

"Before the crisis, steady growth with low inflation and high employment was in our grasp. We let it slip - we, that is, in the financial sector and as policy-makers - not your members, nor the many businesses and organisations around the country which employ them.

 

"And although the causes of the crisis may have been rooted in the financial sector, the consequences are affecting everyone, and will continue to do so for years to come."

 

 

so its from the horses mouth that the banks caused the worldwide slump

Mr King added: "An unprecedented degree of policy stimulus, here and abroad, prevented another world slump and why money was pumped in the economy to stop a depression

but lets see the little tory boys call him a liar rather than face the real facts.

[dune]

Dune shouldn't be allowed on these threads until he accepts that New Labour were not Socialist. I have reminded him of this many times, yet he always manages to avoid it. He is a blatant troll!

 

The tax and spend, tax and waste Socialists were the same under Blair and Prudence as they were in the past and just like with their Socialist predecessors they have ruined the economy and it's once again down to the Conservatives to sort the mess out.

[solentstars]

Dune shouldn't be allowed on these threads until he accepts that New Labour were not Socialist. I have reminded him of this many times, yet he always manages to avoid it. He is a blatant troll!

 

why we all laugh at him anyway let him live in his 1950s world.

[Sour Mash]

Johnny B, what that table show is that the bottom 10% of public sector workers are better paid than the botom 10% of private sector, and so on for each percentile - it does not counter my point that like for like in terms of the job function the public sector is quite possibly worse off. I could also point out that the quoted MEAN ( ie average ) salary on table 13.7 shows £25344 for public sector and £27451 for the private, so you can prove anything with statistics !

 

I never get the whole underpaid/overpaid argument. Ultimately, in the majority of cases, market forces will determine that every individual is paid the correct amount for their work.

[solentstars]

The tax and spend, tax and waste Socialists were the same under Blair and Prudence as they were in the past and just like with their Socialist predecessors they have ruined the economy and it's once again down to the Conservatives to sort the mess out.

i told you maggie was not a socialist even though blair was her son

[badgerx16]

Dune shouldn't be allowed on these threads until he accepts that New Labour were not Socialist. I have reminded him of this many times, yet he always manages to avoid it. He is a blatant troll!

His major problem is that technically the Nazis were !

[dune]

His major problem is that technically the Nazis were !

 

Stop trolling.

[Joensuu]

Stop trolling.

 

You could certainly make a strong case for the Nazi party being closer to Socialism than New Labour....

[Johnny Bognor]

Bank of England governor Mervyn King has blamed financial firms and policy-makers for the economic crisis

 

I blame both the bankers and the labour government in equal measures.

 

So what you are saying is that Mervyn King's line of thinking is in line with mine?

 

It must be nice for you guys to be in such distinguished company.

 

So are all of you lefties going to continue to just blame the bankers?

[Mao Cap]

Are you Peter Storrie or Andronikou?

 

Nope, my name is Paul Krugman. But I share this account with Joseph Stiglitz, Will Hutton, the entire IMF and John Maynard Keynes (though he doesn't post much nowadays). Who are you then big man, now that we're assigning each other imaginary identites? Herbet Hoover?

 

Faggot.

[dune]

So are all of you lefties going to continue to just blame the bankers?

 

It's better just to humour them because no amount of education will change their minds.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Divide and rule lol.

 

The public sector have long needed dragging kicking and screaming into the real world and now is the time to kill off the communist Unions once and for all by completing the privatisations programme started under Mrs T. Now the Socialists are in opposition the opportunity to crush their failed public sector ideals must be seized.

 

Listen to it will you! 'Ideals', Jesus wept; for ideals read 'basics'.

 

Run off to the US with St.George and join the Tea Party.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Stop trolling.

 

Hmmmmmmm, National Socialist German Workers Party...

 

...Labour removed Clause 4

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

It's better just to humour them because no amount of education will change their minds.

 

When the inevitable happens Dune and a general/multi-service strike is called and the country grinds to a halt, I'll ask you where your precious bankers are to help you then...

[dune]

When the inevitable happens Dune and a general/multi-service strike is called and the country grinds to a halt, I'll ask you where your precious bankers are to help you then...

 

Are you one of these people that lives from pay packet to pay packet, or do you have savings?

 

The Socialists lived like the former scenario and borrowed as well during the good times to leave the cupboard bare when the rainy day came. It's because of the Socialists that deep cuts are required and I am 100% behind the government in their efforts to sort our country out although I would have gone further and raised VAT to 25% had I been chancellor.

[Thedelldays]

In Norway i believe its about 14% and rises based on employees earnings.

 

That said, The high tax rates mean that everone is paid much higher salaries and as a result the cost of just about everything is far higher that the UK. The scandinavian countries have the same issues. Norway, even with their oil income, have a long term pension problem.

 

I have been to Norway..alcohol is extremely expensive..as are other "luxury" items

maybe they make their tax up that way..?

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Are you one of these people that lives from pay packet to pay packet, or do you have savings?

 

The Socialists lived like the former scenario and borrowed as well during the good times to leave the cupboard bare when the rainy day came. It's because of the Socialists that deep cuts are required and I am 100% behind the government in their efforts to sort our country out although I would have gone further and raised VAT to 25% had I been chancellor.

 

Thank god that's not the case.

 

I have no choice to live pay packet to pay packet dune, I've been in full time work for 13 months and I don't live with my parents. My rent/council tax is madness, utility bills are extortion and shopping (even before the 20%) for food still requires me to add up with a calculator as I go round.

 

I am barely left with £350 a month to have a 'life'' and pay for petrol.