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saint lard

By saint lard,
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Jonnyboy

Jonnyboy

Posted
Posted
This is a good one

 

On this basis the folowing aren't proper jobs - driving instructor, air stewardess (for FF), chefs, waiters, bar staff, gardeners, engineers, architects (unless they are designing school and hospitals) in fact anyone who works for a "for profit" company.

 

Or you could be taking the P***

 

What are you on about?!!

 

All these jobs contribute something

 

Hedge funds however exist just to make money, nothing else!

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View From The Top

View From The Top

Posted
Posted
Aren't manufacturing companies bowing to ever increasing competition and demand from consumers to pay less and less for their goods though? Doesn't that drive manufacturers to find cheaper ways of doing it....and the highest overhead of a company is it's workforce, so they find a workforce who will do it for less (India, China etc). Ultimately consumer is king, and I'm not sure manufacturing would ever have lasted long in this country in the modern world of consumerism.

 

Then why is the current government determined to bring back a manufacturing base to the UK? Because only by actually making things can your economy grow.

 

I would suggest you look at how well Germany is doing, driven by exports of things they actually make.

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Jonnyboy

Jonnyboy

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Posted
Complete tosh. I think you'll find that without banks your pension fund would look considerably poorer - do you seriously think there's no place for investments in this world? Where do you think the money comes for your mortgage?

 

So weve got these people who are doing it out of the goodness of their heart now! They just want to help me get on the housing ladder - cos thats so easy at the moment!

Oh and you never hear about peoples pension funds going tits up while some billionaire is sitting in the bahamas

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Chin Strain

Chin Strain

Posted
Posted
I can work really really really hard all day scratching my arse from 6am to 9pm 7 days a week, it doesnt make it a proper job

 

This confirms there's no point enlightening you.

 

should be at least 80% over 150k

So our current banking industry leaves the UK and some other country gets the tax. Meanwhile, in your world, someone waves a magic wand and pays for the doctors, nurses, firemen, armed forces etc, etc.

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Chin Strain

Chin Strain

Posted
Posted
All high earning bankers and parasitic scum whose only goal is to make more money.

 

If people feel that is ok and that their taxes balances out their greed then they are living in lala land.

 

'High Earning Bankers'. Don't you mean 'High Earners'? 'Parasitic scum'......benefits cheats, layabout work shy?

 

If anyone thinks that ditching all high earners resolves all our problems is living in la la land

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Jonnyboy

Jonnyboy

Posted
Posted
This confirms there's no point enlightening you.

 

cop out

 

So our current banking industry leaves the UK and some other country gets the tax. Meanwhile, in your world, someone waves a magic wand and pays for the doctors, nurses, firemen, armed forces etc, etc.

 

Hate to use real life examples but plenty of countries without huge banking sectors have good healthcare, police etc

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Jonnyboy

Jonnyboy

Posted
Posted

I can work really really really hard all day scratching my arse from 6am to 9pm 7 days a week, it doesnt make it a proper job

 

This confirms there's no point enlightening you..

 

you seem to be using my original statement as evidence of your inability to educate me

 

what is false in this statement?

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Chin Strain

Chin Strain

Posted
Posted
So weve got these people who are doing it out of the goodness of their heart now! They just want to help me get on the housing ladder - cos thats so easy at the moment!

Oh and you never hear about peoples pension funds going tits up while some billionaire is sitting in the bahamas

 

But surely old fashioned values are the best. People used to have to save for a deposit on their house, they used to have to save for a new car, or a new telly. They got things fixed, didn't throw them away. Holidays were earned and paid for. Why shouldn't you have to show you can raise a deposit on a house and be responsible before you get a mortgage? The trouble is we live in a society where everyone has wanted their fancy mobile that they can't do without at £40 per month, Sky TV at £60 per month, big tellys, flash cars, 2nd homes.

 

It's all about personal choice - get what you can afford not what you want. Just because someone will lend you the money doesn't mean that you should borrow it. Sure, some banks have a lot to answer for. But so do some consumers. Nobody held a gun to their head when they were getting their second home, or overstretching on their mortgage - we;re all grown ups.

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Jonnyboy

Jonnyboy

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Posted
But surely old fashioned values are the best. People used to have to save for a deposit on their house, they used to have to save for a new car, or a new telly. They got things fixed, didn't throw them away. Holidays were earned and paid for. Why shouldn't you have to show you can raise a deposit on a house and be responsible before you get a mortgage? The trouble is we live in a society where everyone has wanted their fancy mobile that they can't do without at £40 per month, Sky TV at £60 per month, big tellys, flash cars, 2nd homes.

 

It's all about personal choice - get what you can afford not what you want. Just because someone will lend you the money doesn't mean that you should borrow it. Sure, some banks have a lot to answer for. But so do some consumers. Nobody held a gun to their head when they were getting their second home, or overstretching on their mortgage - we;re all grown ups.

 

yes I agree

 

on the down side, pompey have equalised

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Chin Strain

Chin Strain

Posted
Posted
Then why is the current government determined to bring back a manufacturing base to the UK? Because only by actually making things can your economy grow.

 

I would suggest you look at how well Germany is doing, driven by exports of things they actually make.

 

I guess you also need to be good at what you're making in order to export it.

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Clapham Saint

Clapham Saint

Posted
Posted
What are you on about?!!

 

All these jobs contribute something

 

Hedge funds however exist just to make money, nothing else!

 

Are you saiying that waiters do their job for the love of making restaurant goers meals more enjoyable?

 

And what are you basing your assertations regarding hedge funds on? Other than media spin of course.

 

Like it or not hedge funds (and investment banks, high street banks, asset based lenders etc for that matter), play a vital role in the economy. Without the investment and lending that they provide businesses would find it very very dificult to expand and invest in growth, let alone start up in the first place, providing jobs, customers for other buinesses, increasing tax revenue and so on.

 

Yes banking activity contributed to the crash, but the government knew what they were doing and were happy to encorage it whilst it brought in tax revenue (greedy should be taxed at 982374928347%) and consumers (in general) were hapy to borrow way more than they had any prospect of being able to afford to pay back (self certification mortgages).

 

People need to step back and realisethat blindly scapegoating does not mean that bankers are evil and everyone else is a saint.

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Chin Strain

Chin Strain

Posted
Posted
Are you saiying that waiters do their job for the love of making restaurant goers meals more enjoyable?

 

And what are you basing your assertations regarding hedge funds on? Other than media spin of course.

 

Like it or not hedge funds (and investment banks, high street banks, asset based lenders etc for that matter), play a vital role in the economy. Without the investment and lending that they provide businesses would find it very very dificult to expand and invest in growth, let alone start up in the first place, providing jobs, customers for other buinesses, increasing tax revenue and so on.

 

Yes banking activity contributed to the crash, but the government knew what they were doing and were happy to encorage it whilst it brought in tax revenue (greedy should be taxed at 982374928347%) and consumers (in general) were hapy to borrow way more than they had any prospect of being able to afford to pay back (self certification mortgages).

 

People need to step back and realisethat blindly scapegoating does not mean that bankers are evil and everyone else is a saint.

 

+ 1

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Jonnyboy

Jonnyboy

Posted
Posted
Are you saiying that waiters do their job for the love of making restaurant goers meals more enjoyable?

 

And what are you basing your assertations regarding hedge funds on? Other than media spin of course.

 

Like it or not hedge funds (and investment banks, high street banks, asset based lenders etc for that matter), play a vital role in the economy. Without the investment and lending that they provide businesses would find it very very dificult to expand and invest in growth, let alone start up in the first place, providing jobs, customers for other buinesses, increasing tax revenue and so on.

 

Yes banking activity contributed to the crash, but the government knew what they were doing and were happy to encorage it whilst it brought in tax revenue (greedy should be taxed at 982374928347%) and consumers (in general) were hapy to borrow way more than they had any prospect of being able to afford to pay back (self certification mortgages).

 

People need to step back and realisethat blindly scapegoating does not mean that bankers are evil and everyone else is a saint.

 

Of course with the current system in place globally then the services that help other businesses and the individual citizen are vital.

 

And yes I do know very little about the inner workings of the banking world. But I have made friends and aquaintances in that world, some are very nice, some are money obsessed p[ricks.

 

Call me a dreamer but Id be interested to see a world with one currency - that way a banana picker in Africa could get paid the same as a toilet cleaner here. And soem of the more useless areas of banking such as currency trading would be on the scrap heap

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Johnny Bognor

Johnny Bognor

Posted
Posted (edited)
Then why is the current government determined to bring back a manufacturing base to the UK? Because only by actually making things can your economy grow.

 

I would suggest you look at how well Germany is doing, driven by exports of things they actually make.

 

Especially all those Bosch products (made in Poland), Mercedes (made in South Africa), Villeroy & Boch (made in China), VW (Polo and golf made in S Africa).....

 

I could go on, but my point is that Germany is not immune to outsourcing and globalisation. In Germany, the share of manufacturing as a % of GDP has fallen by 25% since 1980. In fact the only major producing economies to show an increase in manufacturing as a share of GDP over the last two decades are China and South Korea.

 

So although manufacturing represents 21% of the German economy, it is not as important as you make out. In the UK, manufacturing accounts for approximately 18% of GDP so in reality, the so called thatcherite decline in UK manufacturing is based more upon socialist worker fairy tales rather than pure economic facts. Yes, German manufacturing is getting them out of a hole, but it didn't stop them getting into the hole in the first place.

 

The making of things is not where the money's at, as it is in product design, innovation / inventing, intellectual property etc .......this is what generates wealth.

 

Look at the success of the US IT industry which contains some of the world's most profitable companies.... it's no coincidence that pretty much all of the world's largest IT companies (Sun, Oracle, Microsoft, Cisco, Apple etc etc) were spawned in the 1970's in one place (Silicon Valley).

 

If we want to grow the UK economy we don't need factories, we need product designers/inventors, entrepreneurs and the services companies required to oversee production and marketing/sales.

 

We have to look to the future, not the past.

Edited by Johnny Bognor
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LGTL

LGTL

Posted
Posted
Really?

 

Have you heard who much of a haircut most Irish public servants have taken?

 

Not denying it happened, i'm disputing that we should follow suit. It is widely noted out there that it made things 100x worse, and we have it all to look forward to. That country is a mess unfortunately.

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View From The Top

View From The Top

Posted
Posted
Especially all those Bosch products (made in Poland), Mercedes (made in South Africa), Villeroy & Boch (made in China), VW (Polo and golf made in S Africa).....

 

I could go on, but my point is that Germany is not immune to outsourcing and globalisation. In Germany, the share of manufacturing as a % of GDP has fallen by 25% since 1980. In fact the only major producing economies to show an increase in manufacturing as a share of GDP over the last two decades are China and South Korea.

 

So although manufacturing represents 21% of the German economy, it is not as important as you make out. In the UK, manufacturing accounts for approximately 18% of GDP so in reality, the so called thatcherite decline in UK manufacturing is based more upon socialist worker fairy tales rather than pure economic facts. Yes, German manufacturing is getting them out of a hole, but it didn't stop them getting into the hole in the first place.

 

The making of things is not where the money's at, as it is in product design, innovation / inventing, intellectual property etc .......this is what generates wealth.

 

Look at the success of the US IT industry which contains some of the world's most profitable companies.... it's no coincidence that pretty much all of the world's largest IT companies (Sun, Oracle, Microsoft, Cisco, Apple etc etc) were spawned in the 1970's in one place (Silicon Valley).

 

If we want to grow the UK economy we don't need factories, we need product designers/inventors, entrepreneurs and the services companies required to oversee production and marketing/sales.

 

We have to look to the future, not the past.

 

I have no issue with most of that as I believe in a mixed economy and not the poor, City led, service economy that we have now.

 

Germany, last 1/4, had their largest 1/4 growth in 25 years based on exports of things they made, in Germany, so it can be done.

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Clapham Saint

Clapham Saint

Posted
Posted (edited)
Of course with the current system in place globally then the services that help other businesses and the individual citizen are vital.

 

And yes I do know very little about the inner workings of the banking world. But I have made friends and aquaintances in that world, some are very nice, some are money obsessed p[ricks.

 

Call me a dreamer but Id be interested to see a world with one currency - that way a banana picker in Africa could get paid the same as a toilet cleaner here. And soem of the more useless areas of banking such as currency trading would be on the scrap heap

 

Just enough to be able to know that all of the world's ills are the result of it.

 

129158981049702935.jpg

Edited by Clapham Saint
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pedg

pedg

Posted
Posted

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/dec/14/new-economics-foundation-social-value

 

Hospital cleaners are worth more to society than City bankers, according to a report that shows many low-paid workers increase the wellbeing of the nation more than the high-flying and much better-paid financial-sector staff.

The New Economics Foundation said today that a study of the social impacts of several jobs revealed that City workers, advertising executives and tax advisers destroyed value, while hospital cleaners, childcare workers and staff in the waste-recycling industry gave much more to the country than they took out.

 

...

 

The report said tax accountants were the most destructive, laying waste to £47 of value for every £1 they created. Elite City bankers (earning £1m plus bonuses) destroy £7 of value for every £1 they create and advertising executives wreck £11 of value for every £1 they are paid.

On the other hand, the report judged that waste-recycling workers generated £12 for every £1 spent on their wages. Childcare workers create between £7 and £9.50 of value for every £1 of pay and hospital cleaners create more than £10 in value for every £1 they receive in pay.

 

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scotty

scotty

Posted
Posted

 

There was a very good programme by Evan Davies on R4 today about the comparison between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Its worth a listen on iplayer if anyone here is really interested in this stuff. I tend towards the argument that financial institutions dont actually contribute to the national wellbeing, although they do provide the nuts and bolts that make it all function; when they start looking at themselves as worthwhile entities which contribute to the national wealth they seem to forget where the money they invest comes from. There is no product except money, and the profits they make are simply from persuading other people to let them "manage" their money.

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Saint George

Saint George

Posted
Posted
Cuba

 

Not for much longer http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1311853/One-million-Cuban-jobs-radical-reform-revolution.html

 

Heh, dunno what the lefties are going to cling on to now...They've been trotting out Cuba as the shining light of Socialism/Communism for decades...now it looks like time has caught up with Cuba just the same as it did with all the other Commie countries.

 

Seems the only significant group of peeps who still want to live under Commie rule are Obama and his swooning supporters and 50% of Brits

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Deano6

Deano6

Posted
Posted
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/dec/14/new-economics-foundation-social-value

 

Hospital cleaners are worth more to society than City bankers, according to a report that shows many low-paid workers increase the wellbeing of the nation more than the high-flying and much better-paid financial-sector staff.

The New Economics Foundation said today that a study of the social impacts of several jobs revealed that City workers, advertising executives and tax advisers destroyed value, while hospital cleaners, childcare workers and staff in the waste-recycling industry gave much more to the country than they took out.

 

...

 

The report said tax accountants were the most destructive, laying waste to £47 of value for every £1 they created. Elite City bankers (earning £1m plus bonuses) destroy £7 of value for every £1 they create and advertising executives wreck £11 of value for every £1 they are paid.

On the other hand, the report judged that waste-recycling workers generated £12 for every £1 spent on their wages. Childcare workers create between £7 and £9.50 of value for every £1 of pay and hospital cleaners create more than £10 in value for every £1 they receive in pay.

 

I'm sure City Bankers will be devastated to learn this.

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dune

dune

Posted
Posted
How mny of these "fat cats" do you know? If your talking bout the handful of CEO's of RBS, N Rock etc fair enough - however if your talking about loadsa money bankers then I'd love to know if you personally know any as it seems you don't. I've got a good mate who grew up in Hedge End, left Wildern with a few GCSE's, dropped out of Barton Pev after a year and in Jnuary will pick up another £250k plus bonus working for JP Morgan - fair play to him! He makes his company and clients huge profits (if he and his colleagues didn't he and his colleagues would get sacked - simple).

 

Thanks to people like him paying £125k+ in tax on that bonus (on top of god knows how much on his salary) as well as spending the remainder on a car, his au pair, restaurants, shops, bars, stuff for his kids, holidays etc he single handidly keeps about 4 teachers in their jobs + pays the wages of bar staff, waiters, salesmen, travel agents etc. Again - fair play to him!

 

However, you could have your way and sqeeze him with tax so much he goes to Switzerland, HK, Germany or the states and pays their teachers, waiters, bar staff etc.

 

The amount of jealousy from some people in this country towards successful people makes me sick - dress it up how you like but it's jealousy, pure and simple - and he got it my havings the balls to move to London at 17 with hardly any qualifications work long days, do his finance exams on the job and with a bit of luck - and still long hrs (he works the asian markets at 6am and finishes with the US at 9pm - not including his commute from Weybridge) he earns huge dough, has the car, holidays, clothes, huge house etc that people are envious of.

 

Yeah, push these people out of the country eh - who needs aspiration!

 

Brilliant post. The Socialists will never get it though. As Winston Churchill put it: "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel or envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

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thefunkygibbons

thefunkygibbons

Posted
Posted

It is a shame that the financial crisis hit when it did because it has left many people (including people in this thread) believing that it is all the fault of the bankers

The reality is that the UK fiances were heading for the buffers, and all the financial crisis did was bring forward the event

 

Quite simply, underneath the UK finances was a significant structural deficit, because the amount being spent was more than was being collected in taxes. Despite economic growth, there was a gap being covered by debt. It was all very well whilst the music was playing

 

However as Warren Buffett states "Something that cannot carry on forever, one day will end"

 

To use a personal example, I worked with someone who lived beyond his means, always striving to keep up with the Jones, indulging in a golf habit that probably was costing him £7-8000 a year, but all funded by nil rate balance transfer credit cards. Great whilst it lasted, but you can imagine the pain that hit when he ran out of cards to transfer the balance and got moved onto standard rates of near 20%. Suddenly, he was not in charge of his life. His creditors were.

 

The Government under Gordon Brown was in the same situation.

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badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted

"

General Secretary Matt Wrack said: ‘It’s very easy for people who do not risk their lives fighting fires to sneer at people who do.

 

‘Mr McGuirk is among the highest paid fire chiefs in the country, getting more than £200,000 a year. He is massively overpaid.

‘For that money we could get six fully trained firefighters, which would be a much better use of scarce resources.’ "

 

 

 

[url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1312093/Fire-chief-Tony-McGuirk-s-devastating-verdict-bone-idle-public-sector.html#ixzz0za8ojosX][/url]

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