"We don't have young players" Nick I

[aintforever]

Nick Illingsworth is quoted on vital football as saying about Adkins -

 

 

'Another drawback is at S****horpe he is used to working with young players, whereas at Southampton, we don't have young players.'

 

'Our squad is full of seasoned professionals who we've spent a lot of money on to get the best players in the division.'

 

 

I reckon our first team is still pretty young - first choice 1o outfield players-

RB 27

CB 26

CB 20

LB 26 or 23

RM 24

CM 20

CM 27

LM 22

CF 28

CF 27

 

two most used suns 16 and 20.

 

Surely thats a young side?

 

not a personal issue with Nick just seeing his comment made me check ages as thought most players are hopefully not at their peak yet.

 

S****horpe's last team actually had a higher average age so Illingsworth is officially talking out his ass.

 

Murphy 29

Jones 31

Byrne 28

Mirfin 25

Nolan 22

Togwell 25

O'Connor 22

Wright 25

Collins 24

Dagnall 24

Forte 24

[dubai_phil]

Just a question

 

Are we debating the Academy process or NI getting his facts slightly twisted?

 

If you are a Gardener making things grow, you cannot afford to ignore your garden for a year, it gets full of weeds and the best plants blow seeds away to start growing somewhere else. The divisive days took a heavy toll.

 

Keeping the gardening metaphor going, our last crop of youngsters had tons of sh1t thrown all over them in a desperate attempt to get them ready for market to save us from starving to death. That didn't work.

 

So first of all the garden had to be dug up and prepared - the infrastructure, All the rubbish had to be taken down the dump - end of last season, and now this Autumn the new crop and those that survived can be nurtured.

 

The problem with the Academy has NOT changed since Rupert (one thing he did right) noticed that Academies get Kids to the age of 16 but then STOP and there is NO structure in place to get them through the next two or three years as they stop being Schoolkids and become Young Men READY for first team or regular subs bench football.

 

Now, this ain't (now) just a D_P bugbear or an "If Only SCW had been given time" rant, the FA are also conducting a programme to change the structure, with big changes possibly on the way in how sta\tus is awarded to Academies and from what ages.

 

So, if NC had a big section on this in his business plan a year ago then it is pretty certain that ONE idea he will be looking for as he meets potential managers will be....

 

"How do you plan to develop young players between the Academy & First Team if I give you the resources and the best staff outside the PL?"

 

How Adkins (and others) answers that MAY be the deciding factor.

 

Soooooooooooo

 

N.I. may actually have been pretty close to the truth. IF Adkins has a secret recipe for that which the others do not then bingo, NC has HIS man

[Joensuu]

I'm not sure I understand egg's argument. Based on every method of looking at it, Saints have massively over exceeded in their development of high quality youth. Not only have we produced a large number of high quality players, but we've done so while outside of the top flight.

 

egg, to make your argument make sense, could you tell us:

 

1) another club outside of the top flight who has developed larger numbers of quality players than us over the past decade. Is their any other team even compatible?

 

2) another club in our division who has a player of the quality of AOC outside of their first team. If AOC were at almost any club in this league he'd already be established (and not breaking through).

 

3) another club in our division who has developed 2 top premier league players in the last decade.

 

4) another club in our division who has set the bar as high when it comes to having quality in the first team. This is the level of quality young players will have to reach before they can be considered to be 'knocking on the door' of the first team. I'm sure players such as Gobern and McNish would have passed the grade at most clubs in our division... but our high expectations causes us to underrate them.

 

I can see an argument for us having been massively successful in our recent youth development; but can't grasp how anyone can suggest that we might have failed in this area.

 

Oh and I don't care about Illingsworth, every club has a media 'rent-a-fan', if it wasn't him someone else would have stepped up. It's certainly not something I'd choose to do.

[The9]

S****horpe's last team actually had a higher average age so Illingsworth is officially talking out his ass.

 

Murphy 29

Jones 31

Byrne 28

Mirfin 25

Nolan 22

Togwell 25

O'Connor 22

Wright 25

Collins 24

Dagnall 24

Forte 24

 

Not necessarily, if Adkins has been managing them for 3 years then they're mostly just his young team of 21-22 year olds that has matured.

 

Also, 8 of that 11 is under 25, compared to only 3 U-25s in the Saints side.

 

Not to mention that Alex O-C drags our average age right down and that was his only league start ever.

[Doctoroncall]

...So, if NC had a big section on this in his business plan a year ago then it is pretty certain that ONE idea he will be looking for as he meets potential managers will be....

 

"How do you plan to develop young players between the Academy & First Team if I give you the resources and the best staff outside the PL?"

 

How Adkins (and others) answers that MAY be the deciding factor.

 

Its the eligility versus suitablility argument. Someone like MoN is well qualified but probably not a good fit into the organisation whereas Adkins is a better fit and so is more likely to grow into the role and stay if any good.

[15saints]

As can be seen by Matthew le Gods earlier post we have produce quite a batch of young players that currently ply their trade in pro football. We used to produce youngsters such as Shearer, LeTissier and the difference is that today we start them in the first team or sell them on a lot sooner than we used to. Shearer made his full debut, after one sub appearance, at age 17 years and 240 days. LeTissier was 17 and 291 days and Benali was almost 20. Walcott was the youngest ever and he beat Danny Wallace, but Wallace only debued as sub and only made 3 full appearances over the following 2 seasons.

 

Now it is difficult to compare as we are div 3 and we are talking div 1 with the like of Shearer, but nevertheless the current list is very long and we still have our share of youngster scattered around the leagues.

 

The youth set-up did suffer a little when Gorge Prost left and we do not seem to have replaced him. We are talking about youngsters that have come through the acadamy, but we also have quite a few that came to us where a small fee was involved, but they were still nurtured through the toughest years of their football lives by our set-up.

 

We still have one of the youngest squads around though, so the Illingworth quote was not valid, IMHO and I think the extra resource being put into the youth set-up will pay dividends in the seasons to come.

[egg]

Jonesuu, you miss the point. I do not give a monkeys about other clubs and how we may or may not compare. Saints youth system is the issue.

 

Very simply the current crop of kids are not as good, imo, as in the past. I

 

Granted OC looks useful but I see no others that will displace a recognized first team player.

[dubai_phil]

Its the eligility versus suitablility argument. Someone like MoN is well qualified but probably not a good fit into the organisation whereas Adkins is a better fit and so is more likely to grow into the role and stay if any good.

 

This is the conundrum as I see it. Having an Academy system is the key to eventual success

 

When reading 15saint's post as well it shows how we have pushed the kids through younger (sure you can argue they mature younger every year but look at the criticism of Walcott last season - poor decision making - lack of a footballing brain - all things that only come with EXPERIENCE)

 

The other PROBLEM is, the pool of potential great players is finite in the UK and a lot of competition exists to get them. The Academy feeding the first team ad infinitum is too limited if it ONLY sources the kids from UK. It really should be part of a wider network to get the young Drogba's, Yobo's and Yakubu's into a system and signed up as well.

 

That is where other PL clubs are WAY ahead of us, with Man Ure & Arsenil et al opening Academies all over the place (even down here) so even WITH a focus on integration, when (ok IF) we eventually get to the PL, the flow of kids will be limited and not fast enough for the PL. Some will be ready at 16, some will take until they are 18 or 19 to be ready

 

(They also make money by charging for kids to attend and give scholarships to the brightest prospects)

[derry]

I know Nick and in this case we have to look closer at the motive behind this. Last week I heard Nick on Radio Solent talking about protests, in the Echo it was announced that SISA and the Saints trust had called a meeting for last night to co-ordinate protests, interestingly cancelled at the weekend. It's a case of if it's not Pardew and Cortese is choosing they are against it. They need to get over it and move on.

[Joensuu]

Jonesuu, you miss the point. I do not give a monkeys about other clubs and how we may or may not compare. Saints youth system is the issue.

 

Very simply the current crop of kids are not as good, imo, as in the past. I

 

Granted OC looks useful but I see no others that will displace a recognized first team player.

 

 

I think quite the opposite. OC alone is more than we could hope for as a third tier club. But as MLG points out there are other kids following on not far behind him (very highly rated ones at that, thought Spurs and Man U were sniffing around one of them).

 

What I think you are missing is that we are third tier, and being in this division we have pumped out plenty of third tier quality players (Gillet, James, Gobern, McNish, Mills etc), and also some second tier (or higher) players (e.g. Surman, Lallana). The thing is, third tier players aren't good enough to break into our current first team. Likewise, you can't expect any third tier club to regularly churn out Championship/Premier League quality players, but yet Saints have produced 2 of these in the last couple of years, and look very much like they are about the produce another one in OC.

 

This is why comparision with other teams in our division is a very good method of assessing our youth output. I don't give a monkeys about other teams youth either, but I do give a monkeys that our youth is better than our rivals, and IMO it most certainly is.

[Topcat]

As we are in L2 I would put the age for a young player at 2 years under the Prems 18 to 22. Which is 16 to 20.

 

We only have a couple of starters in the 16 to 20 age range so I agree with NickI that we do not have a young team.

[Hopkins]

What is the deal with his season ticket situation btw?

[Secret Site Agent]

You really think some random b0llo0cks spouted by someone so obsessed by the media is worth discussion? I don't. Take away his desire to be seen as an uber-fan, he is just a supporter like anyone else on this board. And while his opinion is as valid as the next man's, it hardly justifies a forum thread devoted to it.

 

If he is such an uber-fan, how come he hasn't got a season ticket?

[Dogs]

Exactly.

Not only Chamberlain, but we have Ward-Prowse, Reeves, Hoskins and Jake Sinclair all to come through in the next few years. All have had absolutely outstanding reviews.

 

Plus Lloyd Foot!!!!!!!

[NickG]

As we are in L2 I would put the age for a young player at 2 years under the Prems 18 to 22. Which is 16 to 20.

 

We only have a couple of starters in the 16 to 20 age range so I agree with NickI that we do not have a young team.

 

21 not a young player? are you 8 by any chance?

[latter day saint]

If he is such an uber-fan, how come he hasn't got a season ticket?

big lol !

[Chez]

age is of little importance as to whether Adkins will get a quick response, its all about whether the players, whatever their age will respect Adkins. He's an intelligent, successful manager that speaks well and seems to have the strength of conviction and confidence to see him do well here. I'm confident he's the man for the job. Only downside is the lack of knowledge of Saints fans that don't acknowledge his achievements and might not give him the time he needs.

[Chez]

As we are in L2 I would put the age for a young player at 2 years under the Prems 18 to 22. Which is 16 to 20.

 

We only have a couple of starters in the 16 to 20 age range so I agree with NickI that we do not have a young team.

 

so the lower the league the younger you need to be be described as young? rolly eyes thing.