Kelvin Davis- are saints fans the most fickle in the league?

[Baird of the land]

In recent years we've seemed determined to pick a scapegoat. Was delap, then davis & wright. Davis had a poor first season with us. He was low in confidence after conceding shedloads in the prem and being dropped by his manager mccarthy. Why we bought him for 1.5m or whatever is another debate but in my personal opinion he's been playing well last season and this season. Last season it was obscured by the fact he got injured and everyone jumped on richard wright being our new hero. Personally wright seems like a davis clone to me. Great shot stopper but not always the most confident coming for crosses. Difference was he arrived after we'd been murdered with an injured kid in net. I like the fact that we're having the keeper distributing by hand most of the time as well and i'm glad he seems to have bought into the concept. The QPR Lallana goal was a great example of this

[Iowsaintsfan]

I agree. I dont think its just a keeper thing. You can see the knives are out and being sharpened for the likes of McG, even though he's our top scorer. It is probably endemic, though some clubs/supporters (i.e. liverpool) still pride themselves on their patience.

 

Chris Marsden to name another! when he joined Saints he was shocking!

[Alain Perrin]

Go back and look at Fuller, Wright, Davies and Euell and there is one consistent theme throughout. A player that continues to keep their place irrespective of how bad their performances are. This is the one thing that angers fans to boiling point. Everyone accepts players can have bad days, but few can accept continual selection irrespective of the bad performances. The same happened to Drew last season after his U21 call up, even though he managed to put in a lot of good performances previously.

 

I don't disagree with this, but as a manager what can you do? If you don't have a better player in your squad, all you can do is play what you have and hope the adage form is temporary, class is permanent applies (i.e. they get through the bad patch).

 

The manager / coaches are the only ones who see the players day in, day out - they're the only ones who can (and have to) make a judgement on it. The rest is just opinion (for all we know Bart may have been shocking (absolutely woeful) in training under GB, hence why a low on confidence KD was his only option).

 

What irritates me is those fans who nail their colours so firmly to one mast that they can see nothing but fault in another player. e.g. stupid comments last season blaming KD for goals that not even Superman could have saved.

 

There are none so blind as those that will not see.... etc.

[Village Saint]

i have defended Davis all along, I dont think he has improved he was good all along.I just believe the fans perception has changed as they now see that Bart is not as good as they thought he was and so realise KD is our best hope.I do agree that KD made a couple of terrible mistakes, but as I have maintained al along that all keepers make mistake and there has never been a keeper who is faultless.

Without a doubt there is going ot be a mistake again, I just hope fans will now be a bgit more understanding.

 

I would largely agree but to be fair I am not sure that there were ever that many who didn't rate Kelvin. It was only a few vocal idiots with an unrealistic perception of what you can get for a million. From the moment he signed it was clear he was one of the better keepers in the Championship - probably always in the top 4. This year he has stepped it up a bit further perhaps because he is getting a bit older (keepers do mature very late) and I would say he is probably currently the best in the Championship. But even Shilton msade howlers so dont get back at me if he has a stinker Saturday.

[Dannyboy_Saint]

Take Heinz Muller for Barnsely. Unbeatable against us but let in two howlers against Ipswich the next game.

[sadoldgit]

It is good to see KD proving his detractors wrong. He got some fearful stick on here (as did a previous manager for picking him over Bart) but battled through that and is proving he is a solid, decent pro.

Proof if further proof is needed that fans should have nothing to do with running football clubs and picking football teams!

I suppose if the Drama Queens on this site can see the merits in a one time nemesis, eventually they might even see that the world will not end tomorrow and SFC are not exactly "finished".

[saintjinksie]

Tuesday's result again showed how important Kelvin Davis to the side (2 magnificent saves at the start of the 2nd half); and for once Saints fans picked up on it (it might also have something to do with the fact that we have no chants for the rest of the team). That followed a great performance on Saturday where he kept us in it first half.

 

But I wonder how long it will last - Saints fans are incredibly fickle and rarely give him the benefit of the doubt - many will remember how some of our lot turned against him last season at prompting an angry if heartfelt reaction)- this despite the fact that our entire defense was a mess.

 

And again on Tuesday, some were grumbling that, while Kel was having a good game, he had let us down this season, citing QPR. QPR? At 4-1, he made the score look respectable! A more disingenuous response is the old 'he's-a-great-shot-stopper-but-doesnt-command-his-line'. There may be a slither of truth in that but its still arguably got more to do with the inability to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps, subconsciously, we cant forgive him for the matty taylor goal in a previous life. Or perhaps its evidence that our fans are genetically fickle, something that sadly spreads to other parts of the club i.e. poor attendances etc

 

i still always hate him for costing us promotion in 2007. he must have lost us about 10 points.

[L1Minus10]

Kelvin IMO has been **** for 2 years, 3 years if you count his last year at Sunderland. This year he's played much better and his confidence is obviously back. last year I said he was ****, this year I'm saying he's playing well. It's a statement of fact.

[solentstars]

It is good to see KD proving his detractors wrong. He got some fearful stick on here (as did a previous manager for picking him over Bart) but battled through that and is proving he is a solid, decent pro.

Proof if further proof is needed that fans should have nothing to do with running football clubs and picking football teams!

I suppose if the Drama Queens on this site can see the merits in a one time nemesis, eventually they might even see that the world will not end tomorrow and SFC are not exactly "finished".

very good post and i agree 100% with what you have posted.

[alpine_saint]

Has Webster bogged off or something ? Or is it simply that he is focussed now on what he's supposed to be doing, GK coaching, rather than being forced to compensate for Burley's shortcomings ?

[70's Mike]

To the original question

 

NO

 

It is the same the whole football world over, go in any pub pre a game talk to the home fans and there are always players not rated etc that you thought were ok

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

This whole 'fickle' or even 'bipolar' business annoys me .

 

When I offer an opinion on a football team or a individual players abilities I'll post that opinion based on what I've observed at that point in time , this doesn't mean my view is now fixed for the rest of eternity on the subject !

Kelvin Davis for example made some terrible howlers during his first season at SFC - and I criticised him for it . Now he's wildly regarded by Saints fans as being a fine Goalkeeper at the top of his game - and I'm more than happy to recognise that .

This is called being 'reasonable' - to alter ones opinion in the light of developing events is not generally considered to be a weakness of intellect or a character flaw by most fair minded people for Pete's sake . :mad:

 

"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative." - Oscar Wilde .

Edited 3 October, 2008 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[up and away]

Originally Posted by up and away

Go back and look at Fuller, Wright, Davies and Euell and there is one consistent theme throughout. A player that continues to keep their place irrespective of how bad their performances are. This is the one thing that angers fans to boiling point. Everyone accepts players can have bad days, but few can accept continual selection irrespective of the bad performances. The same happened to Drew last season after his U21 call up, even though he managed to put in a lot of good performances previously.

I don't disagree with this, but as a manager what can you do? If you don't have a better player in your squad, all you can do is play what you have and hope the adage form is temporary, class is permanent applies (i.e. they get through the bad patch).

 

The manager / coaches are the only ones who see the players day in, day out - they're the only ones who can (and have to) make a judgement on it. The rest is just opinion (for all we know Bart may have been shocking (absolutely woeful) in training under GB, hence why a low on confidence KD was his only option).

 

What irritates me is those fans who nail their colours so firmly to one mast that they can see nothing but fault in another player. e.g. stupid comments last season blaming KD for goals that not even Superman could have saved.

 

There are none so blind as those that will not see.... etc.

 

yep, that is the other side of the coin and what happens in the real world. I have never booed any of the players, with the exception when Kenwyne got substituted after about game 9 and Fuller stayed on. Nothing wrong personally with Fuller, he just was not fit.

 

The big point with KD has always been his command of his area costing us big time, rather than personal errors. I could never see any difference between KD and Miller who we let go, but we all know at what cost difference. I think we are all very happy with KD's performances this season and he seems far more positive in line with the Dutch duo.

 

It's never going to help by booing players but I cannot argue about anyone who vents ther opinion on here, but it should be subjective. It was only under Burley I really felt this as an issue, as both Pearson and JP seem different animals in that respect.

[OldNick]

Has Webster bogged off or something ? Or is it simply that he is focussed now on what he's supposed to be doing, GK coaching, rather than being forced to compensate for Burley's shortcomings ?

you just cant help yourself can you Alps?

[Stu Man Do]

Worst keeper in PL history what an over the top statement!!

The fans with players like Fuller Crouch ,KD and others think they knew best and crucified all of them without giving them a fair crack of the whip.You then get real dross like Hammil and he is untouchable because he came fro mLiverpool and did fancy steppovers.All show and no substance. Thankfully the managers with the exception of Fuller didnt listen to the wonderful judges from the boo boys and persevered, the club got the fruits of that. The professional judges stood by the players nad they could see they were good and so perhaps we should have our opinions but perhaps let the people whose jobs depend on the players make the calls.Yes have our views but perhaps let the players flourish under less pressure.We then would all be winners.I myself dont rate Pekhart at present but if Jan picks him I accept he sees him everyday and in the long term if he makes the wrong call it costs him his job, far more than you and I have at stake in our preferences.

 

Lol you do support Saints right Nick? I only ask because some of your comments do seem to suggest you don't have a grasp of whats gone on in recent seasons! I appreciate you have your right to an opinion but how the hell you can say Hammill was untouchable is craziness! He was pillored by many on here and in the stands for being complete dross and did nothing in the blackpool game to suggest he was our loss. Having the nickname fatty hammill to many who sit around me doesnt suggest the lad would be played whatever, indeed he actually wasnt!

 

As for Davis he clearly was not good all along as you previously stated. He is however much improved this season, consistency is helping us all see his true worth. Granted he has always been a good shot stopper but I now feel hes more comfortable on crosses and does attempt to catch more along with playing the ball out from the back instead of his pointless hoofs up front to nathan dyer ;-)

 

Supppper super kelv supper kelvin davis :-D

[um pahars]

It is good to see KD proving his detractors wrong. He got some fearful stick on here (as did a previous manager for picking him over Bart) but battled through that and is proving he is a solid, decent pro.

Proof if further proof is needed that fans should have nothing to do with running football clubs and picking football teams!

I suppose if the Drama Queens on this site can see the merits in a one time nemesis, eventually they might even see that the world will not end tomorrow and SFC are not exactly "finished".

 

Methinks you need to have a read of Chapel End Charlie's rather sensible post, because from where I stand you're the only sensationalising stuff and being a drama queen.

 

For some laughable reason you're even dismissing a notion that doesn't exist (i.e. that fans should not be picking football teams).

 

The simple fact is that when he first came here, there were a number of games where he was poor and cost the Club vital points (I can clearly see that QPR blunder in the Kingsland/Chapel corner as if it were yesterday and that was not the only **** up of the period). As a result many fans rightly criticised his poor performances.

 

We all knew that somewhere inside there was a good keeper, (he wouldn't have commanded a £1m+ fee on two occasions otherwise), but the simple fact was that he did not live up to the price tag, nor was he deserving of praise for a number of his games.

 

However, this season he has produced a number of fantastic saves and has delivered a number of very good performances, for which he has been duly praised and quite right too.

 

As a professional player you have to accept the rough with the smooth, and if that is a problem for some players, then I would have to question their mental strength.

 

Player plays well = he receives praise

 

Player plays poorly = he receives criticism

 

What's so wrong with that? And before you drone on about how it might affect his confidence etc etc etc, it's the managers job to motivate players and give them confidence, whereas for time immemorial supporters have walked away from games giving their opinons on how their team and individual players have played.

[OldNick]

Lol you do support Saints right Nick? I only ask because some of your comments do seem to suggest you don't have a grasp of whats gone on in recent seasons! I appreciate you have your right to an opinion but how the hell you can say Hammill was untouchable is craziness! He was pillored by many on here and in the stands for being complete dross and did nothing in the blackpool game to suggest he was our loss. Having the nickname fatty hammill to many who sit around me doesnt suggest the lad would be played whatever, indeed he actually wasnt!

 

As for Davis he clearly was not good all along as you previously stated. He is however much improved this season, consistency is helping us all see his true worth. Granted he has always been a good shot stopper but I now feel hes more comfortable on crosses and does attempt to catch more along with playing the ball out from the back instead of his pointless hoofs up front to nathan dyer ;-)

 

Supppper super kelv supper kelvin davis :-D

When Hammil was here there were many fansd who questioned why he wasnt playing and were adamant he was class.

You may not have thought he was good all along but I did.I was realistic to think that keepers make mistakes and some fans couldnt see through that and wanted someone to blame.

The professional people whose job depended on their decisions thought the same, so who is right.

It is an impossible to answer.I felt KD made save point winning saves and that more tha made up for the 2 holwers.

Put it this way, Lallana missed a sitter against Blackpool that probably cost us the game.We forgave him that, but did fans come on and say drop him because of that clanger? wheras KD did let goals that cost us points but fans were clamouring to get him dropped.It is inconsistant and please do not tell me it is different.A player missing a pen or an open goal counts the same as a keeper letting a ball go through his legs