Pressure getting to everybody

[alpine_saint]

I am not going to argue with you again, you were not at either of the Swindon games last year and I was. I can tell you that the team this season is vastly superior to the one at the Swindon away game. I would say that you had to be there to see that game before spouting off an opinion. How you can have the opinions you have with the certainty you hold them is beyond me. It is obviously your right to an opinion, of course it is, but I do wonder why you can't see that for some one like you who doesn't go to games, pre season or otherwise, should attempts to argue with those that do attend them. What data do you work on other than second hand newspaper reports, presumably the occasional televised match obviously the results and reading stuff on here.

 

Oh, six sentences to tell me the old argument. Sorry mate, I stopped paying attention to that the day I came on here and read "We were sh*t" and "Player X was sh*t" against "we were great" and "Player X (same player) was brilliant" from two people who both claimed to be at the same game...

[Window Cleaner]

But what happens when the new guy has a disagreement with Cortese, because clearly they will - unless they're just an agreeable 'yes man' who'll concede to all of Nicola's demands.

 

Granted, Pardew was rumoured as a bit of an egotist but which successful managers aren't? Most fans would be delighted with MON as manager, but there's no chance he'd take any s*it from Cortese.

 

My biggest worry is that we're never going to have stability at the club unless NC agrees to let the manager manage the club and put complete faith in him. Perhaps he's prepared to do this with the new guy but, if not, I can see the Pardew situation happening again and again.

 

and persuading Markus not to sack AP last summer (if that's true)isn't having faith in your manager? AP was sacked for a reason, it probably had very little reference to team affairs.

[madruss]

I am hoping that NC has had a little shock to his system, and that all of the experienced suitable candidates that he talks to make it clear that they will have little truck with his interference.

 

Which makes me worry he'll give the job to the manager who doesn't make that clear.

 

Interview 1.

NC: Will you let me interfere with the football side of things?

MON: No. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life

NC: Thank you for your time, we'll be in touch

 

Interview 2.

NC: Will you let me interfere with the football side?

PH: Yes Mr. Cortese SIR!

NC: The job's yours.

[madruss]

and persuading Markus not to sack AP last summer (if that's true)isn't having faith in your manager? AP was sacked for a reason, it probably had very little reference to team affairs.

 

I don't buy that rumour. Right from the outset, Markus made it clear that NC was in charge of the running of the club. Therefore the ultimate decision of whether AP stayed or was fired was held by NC. I think it's a lot more plausible that NC wanted to sack Pardew at the end of the season, but bowed to media and fan pressure and kept him on. Whatever argument or 'incident' happened recently would most probably not have resulted in the manager losing his job, but because NC needed very little excuse to sack Pardew, it did for him in this case.

[Thedelldays]

I don't buy that rumour. Right from the outset, Markus made it clear that NC was in charge of the running of the club. Therefore the ultimate decision of whether AP stayed or was fired was held by NC. I think it's a lot more plausible that NC wanted to sack Pardew at the end of the season, but bowed to media and fan pressure and kept him on. Whatever argument or 'incident' happened recently would most probably not have resulted in the manager losing his job, but because NC needed very little excuse to sack Pardew, it did for him in this case.

where did markus say this..?

[Seaford Saint]

Oh, six sentences to tell me the old argument. Sorry mate, I stopped paying attention to that the day I came on here and read "We were sh*t" and "Player X was sh*t" against "we were great" and "Player X (same player) was brilliant" from two people who both claimed to be at the same game...

 

For many of those of us who were there at last years away game at Swindon it was a low point. Things got better after that game, much better and it has remained much better since.

 

So the question I think you should answer for all of us on here is this. What data do you you refer to when forming your opinions?

Have a read of Tijuana Tim's post about yesterdays game that he watched. He says that the team is doing a lot of things right but....

Would you like to comment on his post?

[alpine_saint]

Which makes me worry he'll give the job to the manager who doesn't make that clear.

 

Interview 1.

NC: Will you let me interfere with the football side of things?

MON: No. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life

NC: Thank you for your time, we'll be in touch

 

Interview 2.

NC: Will you let me interfere with the football side?

PH: Yes Mr. Cortese SIR!

NC: The job's yours.

 

Dont agree. If Interview 1 was MON, who until that point had ticked all the right boxes and is known to be of the right calibre even by the likes of NC, and Interview 2 was Paul Hart, I reckon NC would re-consider his approach to things......

[alpine_saint]

For many of those of us who were there at last years away game at Swindon it was a low point. Things got better after that game, much better and it has remained much better since.

 

So the question I think you should answer for all of us on here is this. What data do you you refer to when forming your opinions?

Have a read of Tijuana Tim's post about yesterdays game that he watched. He says that the team is doing a lot of things right but....

Would you like to comment on his post?

 

I was thinking more of Swindon home when were near what was supposed to be our peak, actually.

 

I have no doubt that the team is doing a lot of things right. That is why when NC appoints a decent manager with the right motivational skills and tactical nous, I think things will click back very quickly. However, I stress the point about tatical nous - AP didnt have a clue which is why I content the statement that if he stayed we would have been promoted is complete nonsense.

 

FFS, he was coming out with comments about learning to play "these sort of matches" after Wycombe away !!! He didnt have a f**king clue how to get a result there !

 

Back to Swindon home last season - Danny Wilson did him like a kipper...

[Turkish]

For many of those of us who were there at last years away game at Swindon it was a low point. Things got better after that game, much better and it has remained much better since.

 

So the question I think you should answer for all of us on here is this. What data do you you refer to when forming your opinions?

Have a read of Tijuana Tim's post about yesterdays game that he watched. He says that the team is doing a lot of things right but....

Would you like to comment on his post?

 

Possibly the worst performance i have seen by a saints team (with the exception of 4-1 away to Skates, but that didnt feature on my radar as a performance though) I have never seen any fans of any other team with the whole away support singing "make a sub" at the manager. An utterly dire display, but that was the low point.

[Wes Tender]

It's not the pressure. We would have beaten both Swindon and Rochdale if Pardew was still Manager.

 

Like we beat Swindon last season twice under him too, eh? And like we beat teams at the bottom of the division too last season? And like we beat Plymouth and Leyton Orient this season too.

[Wes Tender]

The post I said was silly was the one in which you said we would have beaten Swindon and Rochdale if Pardew was in charge.

 

Seeing as yesterday was a carbon copy of the two home league games we had under Pardew I pointed out that was a silly observation. It was also silly because:

 

a) it was worded in the absolute - as Deppo has explained to you that makes it virtually meaningless as a valid viewpoint as it just ignores the vicissitudes of reality; and

b) the reason we didn't win yesterday was because people on our team missed easy chances. It doesn't matter who the manager is if players blaze easy chances from five yards over the bar.

 

I mistakenly started reading the thread from the beginning and then responded to the ridiculous assertion the Pardew would have won the matches against Swindon and Rochdale without reading what others had said. Having caught up on all of the posts, yours, Benji, is what I agree with, with Beppo also explaining why DPS' post was so speculative and without any basis of fact.

 

As you say, the team played well enough for most of the match and dominated large parts of it. Contrary to other opinions, they did look up for it until they had gone down 2 goals, but they had plenty of chances to have been two or three up, but missed sitters. Barnard or Lallana or an on form Lambert would have converted most of them, but naturally the situation would have been no different had Pardew been on the touchline. As others have commented, those who think otherwise are indeed delusional.

[madruss]

where did markus say this..?

 

I can't find the exact quote, but I definitely remember an interview around the time NC was appointed executive chairman (the clue's in the title surely?!) where ML effectively said Cortese would be running the club and making the business decisions. Interesting interview Cortese did with the echo last year seems to back this up, particularly this bit:

 

"Does Markus Liebherr have any input on either transfers or in Alan’s appointment?

So far, no he doesn’t."

 

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/news/4553769.Nicola_Cortese_s_exclusive_interview/

[Thedelldays]

I can't find the exact quote, but I definitely remember an interview around the time NC was appointed executive chairman (the clue's in the title surely?!) where ML effectively said Cortese would be running the club and making the business decisions. Interesting interview Cortese did with the echo last year seems to back this up, particularly this bit:

 

"Does Markus Liebherr have any input on either transfers or in Alan’s appointment?

So far, no he doesn’t."

 

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/news/4553769.Nicola_Cortese_s_exclusive_interview/

maybe markus told him to give that impression...?

 

we will never know I guess

[Deppo]

maybe markus told him to give that impression...?

 

 

So what the old man up to then? Things just get murkier and murkier. Something isn't right.

[Saint_clark]

Considering the players have looked like they don't give a sh*t since Pardew was sacked, can we safely ignore any rumours that there was a dressing room "bust up"?

[buctootim]

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/news/4553769.Nicola_Cortese_s_exclusive_interview/

 

Interesting interview. Dont think id seen that before.

[Seaford Saint]

I was thinking more of Swindon home when were near what was supposed to be our peak, actually.

 

I have no doubt that the team is doing a lot of things right. That is why when NC appoints a decent manager with the right motivational skills and tactical nous, I think things will click back very quickly. However, I stress the point about tatical nous - AP didnt have a clue which is why I content the statement that if he stayed we would have been promoted is complete nonsense.

 

FFS, he was coming out with comments about learning to play "these sort of matches" after Wycombe away !!! He didnt have a f**king clue how to get a result there !

 

Back to Swindon home last season - Danny Wilson did him like a kipper...

 

Not sure I agree with you about Swindon and lots of other teams too, the results don't always speak for themselves. They are not in each case the full story - again I was there at the home Swindon game and this time I was in the company of 3 swindon fans.....they all said that they rode their luck (they did) but they did out do us. Other teams are doing it, too.

 

Again what data do you use to support any assertion you may have regarding Pardew? Perhaps you'll be good enough to explain how Pardew managed to win 53% of his games in his full season in charge. More than any other Saints manager in a long time. This is especially relevent given the shockingly poor team he started out with. Its not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with you but at least I am there watching week in and week out. I don't know how others feel, but I certainly got a lesson in team building watching Pardew change/replace personnel etc last season. It was interesting watching one problem get resolved and then to see him work on another problem within the team and so on. You could not possibly have learnt about any of that since you don't, as far as I understand, regularly watch the team.

 

Neither did you watch the Huddersfield game last season. Sublime football, it really was. Again I was there. God was I angry when we lost the following Saturday!

Edited 5 September, 2010 by Seaford Saint
spelling mistake

[alpine_saint]

Not sure I agree with you about Swindon and lots of other teams too, the results don't always speak for themselves. They are not in each case the full story - again I was there at the home Swindon game and this time I was in the company of 3 swindon fans.....they all said that they rode their luck (they did) but they did out do us. Other teams are doing it, too.

 

Again what data do you use to support any assertion you may have regarding Pardew? Perhaps you'll be good enough to explain how Pardew managed to win 53% of his games in his full season in charge. More than any other Saints manager in a long time. This is especially relevent given the shockingly poor team he started out with. Its not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with you but at least I am there watching week in and week out. I don't know how others feel, but I certainly got a lesson in team building watching Pardew change/replace personnel etc last season. It was interesting watching one problem get resolved and then to see him work on another problem within the team and so on. You could not possibly have learnt about any of that since you don't, as far as I understand, regularly watch the team.

 

Neither did you watch the Huddersfield game last season. Sublime football, it really was. Again I was there. God was I angry when we lost the following Saturday!

 

53% is crap considering how the team was invested in and strengthened last season. He got the two top scorers in the division bought for him, for example

 

Re the comment highlighted: so this conversation is actually just a p*ssing contest. Fine, carry on by yourself. You are da man, da Über Fan. I bow to my superior...

[Seaford Saint]

53% is crap considering how the team was invested in and strengthened last season. He got the two top scorers in the division bought for him, for example

 

Re the comment highlighted: so this conversation is actually just a p*ssing contest. Fine, carry on by yourself. You are da man, da Über Fan. I bow to my superior...

 

A simple question unanswered....what data do you use in support of your assertion that 53% of games won is crap? Did you see what he inherited? I did and I don't think you could have done, to say that!!! Patterson Lancashire and Lloyd James etc. For example the Swindon fans were hoping that Lloyd James was going to play for Saints in the return fixture at St Mary's because in their words he might as well have played for them given the amount of times he gave the ball away to the Swindon players.

 

Clearly living abroad curtails an activity you would otherwise undertake and I am not trying to say I am better than you at all just because I am UK based and watch the team regularly. I am just curious on how go about reaching your opinions. What data do you use? Can I reasonably assume that you didn't watch any of this season's pre season games, and haven't yet watched Saints this season? Presumably, this was true last season too. So you have all these opinions on the manager, the team, the coaches, the players etc yet as far as I can tell such opinions are based on second hand accounts of the team that you don't actually watch. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

You appear to accentuate the negatives in nearly all your posts too. He got the 2 best strikers, granted. However, he identified Antonio's talent from watching him in a reserve game and got him in on loan, same is true of Martin at the back, he identified and developed the player. Yet you are happy to overlook these. I find it strange. From what I saw of Martin yesterday, I think he is a player going places. Most of Pardew's signings if not all have been astute, some were free transfers.

[SaintBobby]

Oh, six sentences to tell me the old argument. Sorry mate, I stopped paying attention to that the day I came on here and read "We were sh*t" and "Player X was sh*t" against "we were great" and "Player X (same player) was brilliant" from two people who both claimed to be at the same game...

 

This is a curious argument.

 

Obviously, people at matches will often hold very different views.

 

But to suggest that this means the views of people who barely go to a single game are as valid as those of those who go to loads of matches is loopy.

 

The absentee may be right and the attendee wrong, of course.

 

But I'm afraid that the fact that you hardly ever watch Saints play does mean your views on the playing side should be given much less weight.

 

I imagine what irritates some people is your lack of acknowledgement of this and the implication that your pronouncements - which are usually expressed in very trenchant and unequivocal terms - are in no way qualified by the fact that you only see a tiny % of the matches.

 

It's not as if you usually (ever?) start a comment with "Obviously, I go to very few matches - and so the many of you that do will probably have a better idea than me - but from what I can gather from Saintsplayer and the OS match report....."

 

Of course, people who don't go to games are entitled to an opinion. But it grates when they are expressed in such an immodest fashion.

[alpine_saint]

This is a curious argument.

 

Obviously, people at matches will often hold very different views.

 

But to suggest that this means the views of people who barely go to a single game are as valid as those of those who go to loads of matches is loopy.

 

The absentee may be right and the attendee wrong, of course.

 

But I'm afraid that the fact that you hardly ever watch Saints play does mean your views on the playing side should be given much less weight.

 

I imagine what irritates some people is your lack of acknowledgement of this and the implication that your pronouncements - which are usually expressed in very trenchant and unequivocal terms - are in no way qualified by the fact that you only see a tiny % of the matches.

 

It's not as if you usually (ever?) start a comment with "Obviously, I go to very few matches - and so the many of you that do will probably have a better idea than me - but from what I can gather from Saintsplayer and the OS match report....."

 

Of course, people who don't go to games are entitled to an opinion. But it grates when they are expressed in such an immodest fashion.

 

Wow, so overseas posters have to be meek and grovelling in the presence of their betters.

 

Heard it all now....

[70's Mike]

Wow, so overseas posters have to be meek and grovelling in the presence of their betters.

 

Heard it all now....

 

No you can be know alls like the rest of us

[Dalek2003]

Reading these threads, Alpine DOES make the most sense and I agree with his sentiments.

[suewhistle]

I imagine what irritates some people is your lack of acknowledgement of this and the implication that your pronouncements - which are usually expressed in very trenchant and unequivocal terms - are in no way qualified by the fact that you only see a tiny % of the matches.

 

It's not as if you usually (ever?) start a comment with "Obviously, I go to very few matches - and so the many of you that do will probably have a better idea than me - but from what I can gather from Saintsplayer and the OS match report....."

 

Of course, people who don't go to games are entitled to an opinion. But it grates when they are expressed in such an immodest fashion.

 

But Bobby, remember, we are all deluded!

 

Incidentally, thanks for the link so that I was able to watch the game on a stream. Watching Saints 3/4 times a year live and via the net occasionally I have to say my win percentage is a lot less than 53%.. Over the past four years it probably works out at about 15%!!

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Reading these threads, Alpine DOES make the most sense and I agree with his sentiments.

 

Correct me if i am wrong but i cannot recall hi supporting the re appointment of Hoddle...

[70's Mike]

Reading these threads, Alpine DOES make the most sense and I agree with his sentiments.

 

that has blown his position then, or does he want Glenda back

[alpine_saint]

But Bobby, remember, we are all deluded!

 

If you think Pardew was going to deliver promotion on the back of that summer, then yes, I would agree.

[Raging Bull]

B*ll*cks.

 

We lost twice to Swindon last year, once with a better team than yesterday. Face facts, Danny Wilson has the measure of us and is a better manager than Pardew will ever be.

 

I reckon Lordswoodsaint is right, once the right manager is appointed, Barnard is off his ban, Goolie has settled and clued up a bit more, and maybe a loan or two brought in, I expect us to be right back in the mix.

 

I think so, chances are the new man (certainly most of the candidates being mentioned) will play football on the deck & to feet, which with the quality of most of our (fit) players SHOULD be far too much for 90% of the opposition instead of the predictable kick & rush which teams like Plymouth etc are set up for.

[SaintBobby]

Wow, so overseas posters have to be meek and grovelling in the presence of their betters.

 

Heard it all now....

 

No, they need to be aware they cant possibly have as good an analysis of the Saints performances and players as those who actually watch the matches

 

No need to be meek or grovelling - just to recognise this fact. And that most definitely goes for you, sunshine. You seem to think the opposite!

[SaintBobby]

If you think Pardew was going to deliver promotion on the back of that summer, then yes, I would agree.

 

That's ludicrous.

 

"Delusional" is a far stronger term than, say, "over-optimistic" or showing "slightly misplaced confidence".

 

"Delusional" suggests a complete departure from reality. Southampton have been seen as favourites to win the league by bookmakers and pundits alike.

 

Even you were predicting we'd make the play-offs!

 

It really is a great shame that some of your genuine insights are easy to totally disregard because of your tendency to monumentally overstate your case.