A Very Telling Comment From Phil Brown

[Lord Duckhunter]

Which is why Inter won the Champion's League and Chelsea didn't.

 

They won it with Marco Branca as sporting Director and JM as head coach.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Can you imagine any decent manager being prepared to work under the direction of an Academy Head?

 

Let's look at how football works. A manager has to work to HIS methods - they are all unique human beings. There is no coaching manual that defines the right way to manage is there? Otherwise, why don't they all read it and then win all their games? They can't. Because leadership, motivation, inspiration - these are not skills, they are traits. What do you think Mourinho learnt more from, a coaching manual or Sir Bobby Robson?

 

The very idea that there can be a club style is at best far fetched. Unless you think managers can be made in a mould? Mk 1 leaves so you appoint Mk II, is that it? Or do you clone them?

 

But equally, why the hell does there have to be a production line from Academy to first team? Are we saying that young footballers have to be trained a certain way for each club? Again, this is nonsense. Footballers can or can't play football. These days they are ALL taught better ball control, and better technical skills. Liverpool's Academy is run by Dutch coaches - I don't see them dictating Roy Hodgson's style? Nor do I see him giving a stuff about them - other than hoping the deliver him a diamond or two. Young footballers fall by the wayside - that's the nature of all sport. Cream rises. Some will make it. Who genuinely believes you can progress a cohort from 10 -18, kickabout to league winners? Name the teams and sports where this occurs?

 

It would be ridiculous to imagine that from the first team down, the entire club need to be focused on producing a footballer who can play at left back in six years time...

 

I am against a DoF, unless appointed by and or with the manager. It is inevitable that he will involve himself in first team affairs and in war, you can have one leader - not a committee, not a discussion, not a consensus. Leadership.

 

And one final point. Ours is a youth set-up that delivered the two most promising footballers in the Premiership today. Bale and Walcott. Were it not for 'forwad-thinking/innovation', today they could have been plying their trade with US in the Premiership...

 

Jeez, posts like this should be archived for future reference - absolutely one of the best I've seen here since day one. Well done fella - completely agree.

[Saint Charlie]

Legod Third Coming - good thread. Main difference here being that the new manager will have been picked by Reed at least partly and will know the role they are being offered and where the interaction with Reed lies - better than we will. Lets see who we get because that person will be very prepared to work with (not under) Les Reed. Again, check out the opinions of this guy in relation to DoF's etc http://www.twitter.com/karlsentk

 

The key is that the manager wont have Reed put upon him but will have been identified to work alongside Reed, by Reed and with full knowledge of this.

 

It is fair to say in Eng we have never got the DoF role right. If it is done properly then no reason why it wouldn't be ok.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

 

 

It is fair to say in Eng we have never got the DoF role right. If it is done properly then no reason why it wouldn't be ok.

 

This is what I've been trying to say. It seems to go wrong because either the DoF really wants the top job and interferes, dont forget Redknapp started as the Skates DoF. Or the owner/CEO interferes (Lowe). John Rudge does a great job alongside Tony Pulis, so it can work.

[Legod Third Coming]

This is what I've been trying to say. It seems to go wrong because either the DoF really wants the top job and interferes, dont forget Redknapp started as the Skates DoF. Or the owner/CEO interferes (Lowe). John Rudge does a great job alongside Tony Pulis, so it can work.

 

To be fair I don't disagree that it can work. What I fail to see is why it's required unless you have a Chairman abdicating the role? Most Chairman in the UK fulfil what is a normal continental DoF role - leaving the UK DoF as a 'senior manager' overseeing the football manager which fails more often than it succeeds.

 

So for my part I would say, why change what wasn't broken? And why should we be one of the few clubs to 'trial' this approach in the UK? Arsenal, the club I admire most, have no need for a DoF other than people employed at Wenger's behest. They have a superb youth set-up, they play sensational football and the manager understands the limitations on his club's finances. Why not model ourselves on Arsenal?

 

The reason I do not believe it will work with us is that we are unlikely to attract a manager used to working within this framework and nor am I convinced that we need it, given our priorirites and the vaguries of football at this level. For years people would say we should employ a continental approach, yet English clubs with an English approach with a traditional, club-leading, club-building manager dominated European competition.

 

I hate the idea of managers being referred to as coaches - the two are totally different roles. Totally. You wouldn't find Fergie showing a guy how to cross the ball. Yet he 'manages' that club as the most succesful manager of the modern era. Likewise Jose.

 

I fear that people like you who refer to 'Head Coaches' don't have enough respect for the manager role. You talk about stability in the event of their departure. With respect, if a manager leaves and there is no impact on the team, they were a pretty unimpressive manager...

 

Managers maketh football clubs. Not Chairmen, not DoFs, not players. Leaders lead.

[Legod Third Coming]

Legod Third Coming - good thread. Main difference here being that the new manager will have been picked by Reed at least partly and will know the role they are being offered and where the interaction with Reed lies - better than we will. Lets see who we get because that person will be very prepared to work with (not under) Les Reed. Again, check out the opinions of this guy in relation to DoF's etc http://www.twitter.com/karlsentk

 

The key is that the manager wont have Reed put upon him but will have been identified to work alongside Reed, by Reed and with full knowledge of this.

 

It is fair to say in Eng we have never got the DoF role right. If it is done properly then no reason why it wouldn't be ok.

 

Ok, but why am I trusting the future of my football club to a guy who singularly failed in his previous roles?!! If you're asking me to choose Reed over Pardew as to who was best for the future of the club... hmmm.. convinced I ain't!

[CanadaSaint]

I think the issue at stake is not so much success as sustainable success, so the debate going on here is really one of proven bases for success versus sustainable bases for success.

 

IMO both sides of this debate are right in many ways, so the argument is rather futile.

 

The way of the big boys is certainly successful but it's not sustainably successful - you have to check not just the points totals and the trophy cabinet but the resultant finances as well. It's certainly not beyond the realms of possibility that there will be some massive crashes in British football the way things are going.

 

For a club such as ours, we cannot compete with the funding that drives that kind of success level - or even (probably) the far more modest success of "Premiership survival". So we have to find another way. That IMO is what this debate should be about.

 

In Cortese's view (and also in Rupert's view), that other way involves a much more central and well-financed role for the Academy so that we can "build" more of the Walcotts and Bales. But this time (where Cortese differs from Lowe - I hope) we will keep them rather than sell them. That requires us to be two things - A) stronger financially - to afford the wages, and B) more competitive on the pitch - because quality players want to win things.

 

But there's no point spending all that time and money on the academy, and making it the central element of the longer term strategy, if the first team management and coaching staff are not supportive - never mind downright hostile.

 

So we have to find a first team manager who is not just prepared to work within such a system because it's a requirement (Brown) but who sincerely subscribes to the same ideals. That commits us to a structure in which the first team manager is NOT "top dog" on the playing side, which narrows the field down dramatically. It pushes us in the direction of the "new breed" British managers or the continentals.

 

I'm more than willing to support the Cortese strategy (which involves Reed-type people in a Reed-type role) because I want us to be sustainably successful in the longer term.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I fear that people like you who refer to 'Head Coaches' don't have enough respect for the manager role.

 

.

 

http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/en/First_Team/1193041476158/Plantilla/Squad.htm

 

The Real Madrid offical web site refers to him as Head Coach, I'm sure they respect him.

[Wade Garrett]

Can you imagine any decent manager being prepared to work under the direction of an Academy Head?

 

Let's look at how football works. A manager has to work to HIS methods - they are all unique human beings. There is no coaching manual that defines the right way to manage is there? Otherwise, why don't they all read it and then win all their games? They can't. Because leadership, motivation, inspiration - these are not skills, they are traits. What do you think Mourinho learnt more from, a coaching manual or Sir Bobby Robson?

 

The very idea that there can be a club style is at best far fetched. Unless you think managers can be made in a mould? Mk 1 leaves so you appoint Mk II, is that it? Or do you clone them?

 

But equally, why the hell does there have to be a production line from Academy to first team? Are we saying that young footballers have to be trained a certain way for each club? Again, this is nonsense. Footballers can or can't play football. These days they are ALL taught better ball control, and better technical skills. Liverpool's Academy is run by Dutch coaches - I don't see them dictating Roy Hodgson's style? Nor do I see him giving a stuff about them - other than hoping the deliver him a diamond or two. Young footballers fall by the wayside - that's the nature of all sport. Cream rises. Some will make it. Who genuinely believes you can progress a cohort from 10 -18, kickabout to league winners? Name the teams and sports where this occurs?

 

It would be ridiculous to imagine that from the first team down, the entire club need to be focused on producing a footballer who can play at left back in six years time...

 

I am against a DoF, unless appointed by and or with the manager. It is inevitable that he will involve himself in first team affairs and in war, you can have one leader - not a committee, not a discussion, not a consensus. Leadership.

 

And one final point. Ours is a youth set-up that delivered the two most promising footballers in the Premiership today. Bale and Walcott. Were it not for 'forwad-thinking/innovation', today they could have been plying their trade with US in the Premiership...

 

Top post Sir.

[Legod Third Coming]

I think the issue at stake is not so much success as sustainable success, so the debate going on here is really one of proven bases for success versus sustainable bases for success.

 

IMO both sides of this debate are right in many ways, so the argument is rather futile.

 

The way of the big boys is certainly successful but it's not sustainably successful - you have to check not just the points totals and the trophy cabinet but the resultant finances as well. It's certainly not beyond the realms of possibility that there will be some massive crashes in British football the way things are going.

 

For a club such as ours, we cannot compete with the funding that drives that kind of success level - or even (probably) the far more modest success of "Premiership survival". So we have to find another way. That IMO is what this debate should be about.

 

In Cortese's view (and also in Rupert's view), that other way involves a much more central and well-financed role for the Academy so that we can "build" more of the Walcotts and Bales. But this time (where Cortese differs from Lowe - I hope) we will keep them rather than sell them. That requires us to be two things - A) stronger financially - to afford the wages, and B) more competitive on the pitch - because quality players want to win things.

 

But there's no point spending all that time and money on the academy, and making it the central element of the longer term strategy, if the first team management and coaching staff are not supportive - never mind downright hostile.

 

So we have to find a first team manager who is not just prepared to work within such a system because it's a requirement (Brown) but who sincerely subscribes to the same ideals. That commits us to a structure in which the first team manager is NOT "top dog" on the playing side, which narrows the field down dramatically. It pushes us in the direction of the "new breed" British managers or the continentals.

 

I'm more than willing to support the Cortese strategy (which involves Reed-type people in a Reed-type role) because I want us to be sustainably successful in the longer term.

 

But you won't find a team in the world that can be successful purely from breeding its own playing staff. Inevitably, the best ones will always be sold or may choose to leave. Look at Fabregas - joined Arsenal from the Barcelona coaching set up!! Players hold all the cards. Breeding to sell was Rupert's mechanism for financing the club. Sadly it was and is doomed to fail for the reasons you outline very eloquently above - we won't be able to afford to keep them.

 

It's not a case of the management being hostile to this approach. Why would they be? Ferguson loves the United Academy - it gave him Beckham, Giggs, Scholes and Neville.

 

What is essential is a successful first team. It's all very well people holding up European clubs where such and such an approach works. We're a third division football club (18th in that division). Our top priority is not building a sustainable future for this league, it is (according to our Chairman) promotion, otherwise we have no future.

 

Well, promotion means this:

 

Finding the best manager

Backing him with cash (as much as can be afforded)

Letting him do his job.

 

This is the proven model (honest) that underpins the success of every club in the short term. Then, if you want to change the infrastructure, do it from a position of strength while you are winning football matches...

 

I honestly cannot recall a successful club who first rebuilt the infrastructure of the club and then went about finding and securing the best manager available. It simply doesn't make sense if you think about it. Training ground infrastructure, policies, managerial chains of command - these don't win football matches in the short term. They evolve to support a succesful club, don't they? Doesn't a succesful manager help to build this anyway? Either through a direct contribution of knowledge and expertise, or (in the case of Manchester United) because his actions on the pitch are what creates success off the pitch.

 

People are quick to forget us rolling United over some years ago and causing Ron Atkinson to lose his job at Old Trafford. The man they appointed has enabled their success. HE built the infrastructure of that club because his success on the pitch funded it. His management and tactical nous on the pitch attracted the investment. His footballers paved the way for that club to leapfrog Liverpool in the modern era to become the biggest brand in world football. Chelsea could have had the same - really they could. They might win things with Ancelotti, they could have rivalled United and Barcelona with the Portuguese.

 

I too want us to be sustainably successful. But it defies all logic and history to assume that a DoF brings stability. Inter will not be as succesful with Benetiz as with Mourinho - at least I would be stunned senseless if they are. So what good does the DoF do in those circumstances? Tell me?

 

Good managers are the secret of football success surely??

[Legod Third Coming]

http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/en/First_Team/1193041476158/Plantilla/Squad.htm

 

The Real Madrid offical web site refers to him as Head Coach, I'm sure they respect him.

 

And I'm pretty sure he wouldn't work for Les Reed so best not tap him up just yet!

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But it defies all logic and history to assume that a DoF brings stability. Inter will not be as succesful with Benetiz as with Mourinho - at least I would be stunned senseless if they are. So what good does the DoF do in those circumstances? Tell me?

 

Good managers are the secret of football success surely??

 

You are completely missing the whole point.Abroad Mourinho works in a structure that includes a DoF, and has done so at Inter and Madrid, and whilst he was winning 2 European Cups. Bobby Robson worked in a structure that included one whilst he was abroad. If Wenger left Arsenal for Barca or AC Milan or whoever, he'd work in a structure that included a DoF/Sporting Directer. Do you think that Andoni Zubizarreta has a "non job" at Barca? He is part of a structure that allows Pep Guardiola to concentrate on the first team and get on with winning football matches.He has 125 spainish caps, so brings a great deal of knowledge to the table.

[Legod Third Coming]

You are completely missing the whole point.Abroad Mourinho works in a structure that includes a DoF, and has done so at Inter and Madrid, and whilst he was winning 2 European Cups. Bobby Robson worked in a structure that included one whilst he was abroad. If Wenger left Arsenal for Barca or AC Milan or whoever, he'd work in a structure that included a DoF/Sporting Directer. Do you think that Andoni Zubizarreta has a "non job" at Barca? He is part of a structure that allows Pep Guardiola to concentrate on the first team and get on with winning football matches.He has 125 spainish caps, so brings a great deal of knowledge to the table.

 

No my friend, I understand what the job is - read my posts. I question why we need one. Did we need one last year? Did we need one in 2003?

 

Explain to me what a DoF will do for us? And further:

 

What experience Les Reed has to do the job?

What roles do you think he will undertake?

What experience does he have of recruiting managers and how successful have they been working for him?

 

I'm serious and enjoy this debate.

I fail to see why we need one, that is all.

(And my posts about Mourinho are on the basis that the DoFs in those clubs clearly do nothing that Jose doesn't want them to or he would not have accepted the job - see his career for evidence) I think you will find the idea that Madrid said 'this is the job, this is the man you report to and this is the limit of your responsibility Jose' is a bloody nonsense. The guy will have outlined his requirements and let them bend to him. That's the value of success. And Madrid will have been bloody delighted to accommodate him on the basis they might now win something again!

[aintforever]

I think people tend to over-complicate things, wether you have a D.O.F and Head Coach, or Manager and Coach makes little difference IMO. It's who they are and how they work together that's important.

 

I have no problem with Les Reed (apart from the fact he was really really ****e at Charlton) but if he is working as a D.O.F he needs to take as much responsibility for results as whoever the next head coach is. If we don't get the results, both their heads are on the block.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I never said anything about Les Reed having the job, so can't really comment on his ability to do it. If he runs the acedemy, then that is a completely differant job. Has John Rudge contributed to Pulis' great job at Stoke, I dont know. However, why would Barca,Madrid and Inter continue to employ a Sporting Director if they didn't think it was an important job. The problem in this Country is the roles get blurred. Abroad they are seperate,Guardiola couldn't do, or wouldn't want to do Zubizarreta's job and visa versa.I would like to see a foregin structure at Southampton, with the Zubizarreta role taken by an explayer or Manager.It will not affect the person running the first team's ability to do his job in the way he feels fit.

[CanadaSaint]

LTC, I still think we’re both right and obviously you do, too, because you’ve wasted some of your cleverly constructed “straw man” arguments on me. It’s neat how you do that in your debates - you know, injecting “an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.” I’m flattered, my electronic friend.

 

I never suggested that we should try to be successful "purely from breeding (our) own playing staff". I never suggested that “building a sustainable future for this league” (i.e. third tier) is the goal here. And I never suggested ”that a DoF brings stability”.

 

What I did suggest was that, in a club of our size, high-level commitment to an Academy is crucial for sustainable success - so crucial that I’m willing to try Cortese’s structure with a greater balance between the academy side and first team affairs. In a club like ours, there’s very good reason to go that way.

 

You can cite Man United as an example until we both go blue in the face – or Chelsea or Man City or Inter Milan or Liverpool, and so on. But I would argue that their success is not sustainable without an everlasting sugar daddy, and this is already evident or will be shown to be so in time. Man U, for example, had a hot patch for player development (as you demonstrated) but I don't think they’re running at that level now, and they have a sh*tload of debt financing holding them up – as do most of the others in some shape or form. Arsenal are probably leading the Big Four in player development right now, and they are financially stronger, so I think they could soon move to the top of the pile and be in a position to stay there for a while. They’re not just developing good players but players who are already coached in the Arsenal groove.

 

But the key point in my argument is that we are not those clubs – or anything like them when it comes to revenue generation. While they could succeed in the future with, say, 20% home-grown players and 80% acquired players, the reality for us is that we’ll need to hit more like 50%/50%. Of course we’ll still have to buy – and buy well, and I’m sure Cortese’s willing to do that, but it will have to reflect our financial reality if sustainability is one of the goals.

 

You say “Good managers are the secret of football success surely??” as though I was disputing that point, which of course I never did. What I was saying was that the manager we hire needs to be not only good but willing to accept the 50%/50% reality, and willing to work within a structure that reflects that.

 

LTC, I just saw another of your posts. I'm not saying that Reed is right for the job (I don't know enough to speak one way or the other) but I am certainly arguing that the structure may be just what we need, and that the new guys needs to fit well within it.

Edited 5 September, 2010 by CanadaSaint
Added last paragrph

[Legod Third Coming]

I never said anything about Les Reed having the job, so can't really comment on his ability to do it. If he runs the acedemy, then that is a completely differant job. Has John Rudge contributed to Pulis' great job at Stoke, I dont know. However, why would Barca,Madrid and Inter continue to employ a Sporting Director if they didn't think it was an important job. The problem in this Country is the roles get blurred. Abroad they are seperate,Guardiola couldn't do, or wouldn't want to do Zubizarreta's job and visa versa.I would like to see a foregin structure at Southampton, with the Zubizarreta role taken by an explayer or Manager.It will not affect the person running the first team's ability to do his job in the way he feels fit.

 

What evidence do you have that a foreign structure will work in Division Three of English football?

[CanadaSaint]

I think people tend to over-complicate things, wether you have a D.O.F and Head Coach, or Manager and Coach makes little difference IMO. It's who they are and how they work together that's important.

 

I have no problem with Les Reed (apart from the fact he was really really ****e at Charlton) but if he is working as a D.O.F he needs to take as much responsibility for results as whoever the next head coach is. If we don't get the results, both their heads are on the block.

 

Good post.

[Lord Duckhunter]

What evidence do you have that a foreign structure will work in Division Three of English football?

 

None, but it's subjective. Stoke have a DoF and they are in the top flight for the first time in 30 odd years. Is that because John Rudge's role has helped Tony Pulis and the club,how can you judge whether it has or not?

 

Have Madrid won so much because of it, who knows?

[Legod Third Coming]

LTC, I still think we’re both right and obviously you do, too, because you’ve wasted some of your cleverly constructed “straw man” arguments on me. It’s neat how you do that in your debates - you know, injecting “an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.” I’m flattered, my electronic friend.

 

I never suggested that we should try to be successful "purely from breeding (our) own playing staff". I never suggested that “building a sustainable future for this league” (i.e. third tier) is the goal here. And I never suggested ”that a DoF brings stability”.

 

What I did suggest was that, in a club of our size, high-level commitment to an Academy is crucial for sustainable success - so crucial that I’m willing to try Cortese’s structure with a greater balance between the academy side and first team affairs. In a club like ours, there’s very good reason to go that way.

 

You can cite Man United as an example until we both go blue in the face – or Chelsea or Man City or Inter Milan or Liverpool, and so on. But I would argue that their success is not sustainable without an everlasting sugar daddy, and this is already evident or will be shown to be so in time. Man U, for example, had a hot patch for player development (as you demonstrated) but I don't think they’re running at that level now, and they have a sh*tload of debt financing holding them up – as do most of the others in some shape or form. Arsenal are probably leading the Big Four in player development right now, and they are financially stronger, so I think they could soon move to the top of the pile and be in a position to stay there for a while. They’re not just developing good players but players who are already coached in the Arsenal groove.

 

But the key point in my argument is that we are not those clubs – or anything like them when it comes to revenue generation. While they could succeed in the future with, say, 20% home-grown players and 80% acquired players, the reality for us is that we’ll need to hit more like 50%/50%. Of course we’ll still have to buy – and buy well, and I’m sure Cortese’s willing to do that, but it will have to reflect our financial reality if sustainability is one of the goals.

 

You say “Good managers are the secret of football success surely??” as though I was disputing that point, which of course I never did. What I was saying was that the manager we hire needs to be not only good but willing to accept the 50%/50% reality, and willing to work within a structure that reflects that.

 

I apologise if misrepresented you my friend - it was not intentional (and I was answering some other points in my response to you, in my defence!)

 

I agree a high-level of commitment to an academy is essential but given our current position and recent events I don't see any evidence that Pardew was in any way not committed to an academy? You may not be suggesting he wasn't, but it undermines an argument in favour of him being fired because he was very willing to play youngsters - Mills, Martin and Chamberlain for starters.

 

The only evidence I have of clubs attempting to operate as you outline are clubs like Crewe who are destined to circulate the lower leagues because the minute a player gets any first-team time, they get snapped up. I'm not arguing in favour of current football finances, but the sad reality is you do have to buy success in the current model and finance it accordingly.

 

I just don't believe that sustainability and success go together in football today. How can they in the current model? If ALL clubs were forced to adopt a home-grown model I would agree with you and I personally would love to see it happen. But if we want Premiership football (the Chairman's ambition not mine - I will stop going if we get there), we have to buy that success.

 

For me the big problem is a man talking about a 3/5 year plan and sustainability in the same breath. I would argue that Pardew built a very good foundation that we will now have to rebuild. It may be quick, it may not. Will the next manager be given the time to work within a sustainable model?

[Legod Third Coming]

None, but it's subjective. Stoke have a DoF and they are in the top flight for the first time in 30 odd years. Is that because John Rudge's role has helped Tony Pulis and the club,how can you judge whether it has or not?

 

Have Madrid won so much because of it, who knows?

 

But to be fair, I can cite all the clubs who have been promoted from this Division over the past decade without DoFs as my evidence. There are a lot of them. And as a gambler my compulsion is to back sure things, not possibles...

[Lord Duckhunter]

I have no problem with Les Reed (apart from the fact he was really really ****e at Charlton) but if he is working as a D.O.F he needs to take as much responsibility for results as whoever the next head coach is. If we don't get the results, both their heads are on the block.

 

That's not the same job I'm talking about here. When Manuel Pellegrini was sacked at Madrid because of poor results, Miguel Pardeza stayed on as DoF, and now works with JM.

[CanadaSaint]

As has been the case on many occasions in the past, I think we actually see things in similar ways - and we were debating when we were really not in disagreement.

 

Perhaps living over here has given me a different perspective on buying success, because most of the major North American sports have taken very significant measures to impose sustainability and to balance the playing field between "the haves and have nots".

 

Perhaps that everyday backdrop over here has made me too enthusiastic in embracing Cortese's ideas when they may be too revolutionary for the British game at the moment - too far ahead of their time.

 

And I agree that it's ironic that AP may have been nuked for lacking commitment to the academy (I even accused him of that!) when he wasn't slow to introduce youngsters.

 

I just want a bright new day to start - even if there's still a prospect of rain in the forecast!

[Legod Third Coming]

As has been the case on many occasions in the past, I think we actually see things in similar ways - and we were debating when we were really not in disagreement.

 

Perhaps living over here has given me a different perspective on buying success, because most of the major North American sports have taken very significant measures to impose sustainability and to balance the playing field between "the haves and have nots".

 

Perhaps that everyday backdrop over here has made me too enthusiastic in embracing Cortese's ideas when they may be too revolutionary for the British game at the moment - too far ahead of their time.

 

And I agree that it's ironic that AP may have been nuked for lacking commitment to the academy (I even accused him of that!) when he wasn't slow to introduce youngsters.

 

I just want a bright new day to start - even if there's still a prospect of rain in the forecast!

 

My gut feel is that we are where your clubs were ten/fifteen years ago. We now have big owners, mutli-nationals, Americans even (!!). What we genuinely need is a 'draft' system or some focus on real home-grown talent (not players bussed in from Lithuania or stolen from a smaller club). I think it won't be long before teams like United and Chelsea are petitioning for a new league structure - games in China and India. Football will eat itself. I'm sure of that more than I'm sure how we'll perform this year...

[aintforever]

That's not the same job I'm talking about here. When Manuel Pellegrini was sacked at Madrid because of poor results, Miguel Pardeza stayed on as DoF, and now works with JM.

 

But surely the D.O.F has to be judged on results the same as the head coach. If the D.O.F has no influence on the success of the team what is the point in him being there?

 

If Les Reed is a D.O.F he should pick the new head coach, if that head coach is not good enough, Les Reed should be fired for not doing his job properly.

[Lord Duckhunter]

But surely the D.O.F has to be judged on results the same as the head coach. If the D.O.F has no influence on the success of the team what is the point in him being there?

 

If Les Reed is a D.O.F he should pick the new head coach, if that head coach is not good enough, Les Reed should be fired for not doing his job properly.

When the first team Manager/Coach gets the sack, should all the scouts go, should the youth team manager go, should the Chairman go? Abroad the DoF does not get sacked when the Head coach goes, they are two completely seperate roles.

[aintforever]

When the first team Manager/Coach gets the sack, should all the scouts go, should the youth team manager go, should the Chairman go? Abroad the DoF does not get sacked when the Head coach goes, they are two completely seperate roles.

 

But if the D.O.F brings in a poor head coach surely he is not doing his job properly so should be sacked?

[Lord Duckhunter]

The owner/CEO should appoint the Head Coach, not the DoF. John Rudge didn't appoint Tony Pulis, he may have been asked his opinion, but I'm sure a lot of advise will be taken. The buck stops with the owner/CEO.

[aintforever]

I still think a D.O.F should take responsibility for results on the pitch. If having a good D.O.F doesn't mean better results then what is the point in him being there?

[Lord Duckhunter]

If results are poor, then the wrong man could be in the job. Just like you could have the wrong head scout or acedemy boss, but just because the head coach does a bad job, should not automaticaly mean the DoF goes. John Rudge has been DoF for about 6 differant Stoke Managers, the owner is obviously happy with his role.

[70's Mike]

What evidence do you have that a foreign structure will work in Division Three of English football?

 

And that is the 64000 dollar question and i am concerned that our future could depend on an experiment

[Lord Duckhunter]

Ok, this is how I see it working.

 

I win the Euro millions on Friday and Nicola/ML's family sell out to me.I dont know anything about the ins and outs of football, although I know more than Rupes did.

 

I get onto Steve Coppell and ask him to be DoF, and he agrees. I appoint Eddie Howe as first team coach and he can bring his coaches with him. Steve and him will then agree the scouting network and Steve will be tasked with setting it up.I also appoint Doddsy to run the acedemy and ask Steve to overlook it for me, and with Doddsy pick the age group coaches.. Eddie doesn't fancy Puncheon, so Steve touts him around his contacts, and advises me on the money we've been offered by MK Dons. Eddie thinks we need another target man and a couple of flyers for the flanks. He gives Steve a list of names and Steve advises me on whether they're worth the money and what sort of contract we should offer.Steve is there for Eddie, if he needs advise and is there helping me to run the football sides of things.Eddie isw answerable to me for the first team, but Steve is answerable for everything else. If the first team have decent players and underperform then Eddie goes, if the Club aren't bringing youngsters through,or keep wasting my money, then Steve gets the push.If they argue with me, then they are both out

Edited 5 September, 2010 by Lord Duckhunter

[Legod Third Coming]

Ok, this is how I see it working.

 

I win the Euro millions on Friday and Nicola/ML's family sell out to me.I dont know anything about the ins and outs of football, although I know more than Rupes did.

 

I get onto Steve Coppell and ask him to be DoF, and he agrees. I appoint Eddie Howe as first team coach and he can bring his coaches with him. Steve and him will then agree the scouting network and Steve will be tasked with setting it up.I also appoint Doddsy to run the acedemy and ask Steve to overlook it for me, and with Doddsy pick the age group coaches.. Eddie doesn't fancy Puncheon, so Steve touts him around his contacts, and advises me on the money we've been offered by MK Dons. Eddie thinks we need another target man and a couple of flyers for the flanks. He gives Steve a list of names and Steve advises me on whether they're worth the money and what sort of contract we should offer.Steve is there for Eddie, if he needs advise and is there helping me to run the football sides of things.Eddie isw answerable to me for the first team, but Steve is answerable for everything else. If the first team have decent players and underperform then Eddie goes, if the Club aren't bringing youngsters through,or keep wasting my money, then Steve gets the push.If they argue with me, then they are both out

 

Therotically brilliant, until Steve comes to you and says, I could do a better job than Eddie Duck...

[Lord Duckhunter]

Therotically brilliant, until Steve comes to you and says, I could do a better job than Eddie Duck...

 

That's the important point and the reason for many failures of this system in England. It's important the DoF does not want the Managers job, it is a totally separate role and you need the right person, someone who is happy in that particular role.

[SaintRichmond]

You are completely missing the whole point.Abroad Mourinho works in a structure that includes a DoF, and has done so at Inter and Madrid, and whilst he was winning 2 European Cups. Bobby Robson worked in a structure that included one whilst he was abroad. If Wenger left Arsenal for Barca or AC Milan or whoever, he'd work in a structure that included a DoF/Sporting Directer. Do you think that Andoni Zubizarreta has a "non job" at Barca? He is part of a structure that allows Pep Guardiola to concentrate on the first team and get on with winning football matches.He has 125 spainish caps, so brings a great deal of knowledge to the table.

 

THAT is the key phrase. It works in Europe, because it is done properly and people stick to their roles, but it would NOT work in the UK

 

WHY ?? Because, in the UK, the likes of Reed/DOF/Lowe in the past, will always be sticking their fingers into other peoples Roles, and therefore underming and/or usurping the Role of the First Team Manager

 

Managers HAVE to have Authority, and respect of the players, otherwise their position is undermined and untenable IMHO

[Under Weststand]

What an excellent debate, the main thing for me. Is getting people from chairman, down to the lowest academy coach all buying into a style/footballing philosophy ( aka Arsenal). Then it is getting the balance right at the start between the most important for me 1st team results as this ultimately drives the finances of the club. Get the first team right & playing attractive football & the club can then build downwards. Now the interaction of the pieces of the club (ie DOF 1st team manager/head coach etc) is ultimately down to the chairman to get those pieces of the jig-saw to fit correctly. Now maybe NC is trying to hard to do it all at once, & maybe needs to just concentrate for a couple of years on the 1st team get that right & then maybe tweak the staff further down the chain without ignoring it.

I was brought up in the late seventies & early eighties & the football we played at that time was fantastic(maybe slightly rose tinted glasses) but it was football on the ground passing movement good to watch football. I'd just love our club to get back to playing that style of football week in week out. And we regularly brought through young players from the youth team/reserves. now i know its a different era, but if you get a backroom team all singing from the same hymn sheet then it can be achieved, it may take us a few years to achieve it playing a certain style of football from top to bottom of the club, but it has to be led from the 1st team & chairman for me.

[simondo]

i'd be pleased with Phil Brown as r manager tbh