Pardew and Coaching Staff Sacked.

[Smirking_Saint]

Best we've had since WGS though (lost something like seven matches last season, granted drew a few to many). Also it could be a major **** up with no new manager lined up, if the team perform like they did against Swindon before a new manager comes in we could be way of the pace by the time a new manager has settled and got us playing well again (if indeed he does). We won't know how much of a ****up it is/isn't until the end of the season. I was confident of top two a week ago now not at all.

 

Before the season started i was more than confident we would be ok, but after the start we have had i was not so sure really. In all honesty with the team and money we have had to spend i would be dissapointed if I couldn't get us promoted let alone an experienced manager. This goes for last season as well, IMO if he was more tactically aware and more reactive to what was happening on the pitch we could have made the playoffs, also he asked for more cash in order to make it, he didn't.

 

We have not made a blistering start, players look off form, but Swindon was a blip, it won't happen much. The fact the move has come so early has helped as we can sort ourselves out now rather than damaging a run later, also we were hardly in form anyway. Another thing is it was in the cup, this will help to focus on the league.

 

Losing Pardew is not as bad as is being made out, plus if he was damaging the team it is a positive step (i accept we don't know either way).

 

Unfortunately the fact he is being made out to be the best manager since WGS is situational as opposed to characteristically, in the same way as people can say Keegan achieved a lot..... but only when backed by cash.

[Smirking_Saint]

Not really, Pardew will have been forced to sign a compromise agreement asking him to keep shtum to get his pay off. He also knows the game - speak out-stay out...

 

It would be a simple matter for a Chairman to say either that someone has been dismissed for a breach of club discipline or because of performances on the pitch.

 

The timing is lousy, the void left has been filled with speculation and I'd like our Chairman to explain what part of his 3/5 year plan involved sacking a manager at the worst possible time following a period of what this club would ordinarily consider relative success...(his win ratio of 53% is only 5% worse than Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger).

 

Again situational, i would expect that from any manager that has this team, facilities and wealth behind it, anything less than that (and IMO its not great as you say championship form would be around the 60% mark).

 

Timing could be out of NC's hands dependant on what has happened, but at the start of the season, with a game in hand and 6 points of the leaders after 3 games is hardly the worst possible time. The end of season run in however would have been.

 

Success ? No not really, the JPT was a great day out but give it a few years and no one will care, it is a lower league cup. Our club will be judged on major trophies and league positions only.

[doddisalegend]

Before the season started i was more than confident we would be ok, but after the start we have had i was not so sure really. In all honesty with the team and money we have had to spend i would be dissapointed if I couldn't get us promoted let alone an experienced manager. This goes for last season as well, IMO if he was more tactically aware and more reactive to what was happening on the pitch we could have made the playoffs, also he asked for more cash in order to make it, he didn't.

 

We have not made a blistering start, players look off form, but Swindon was a blip, it won't happen much. The fact the move has come so early has helped as we can sort ourselves out now rather than damaging a run later, also we were hardly in form anyway. Another thing is it was in the cup, this will help to focus on the league.

 

Losing Pardew is not as bad as is being made out, plus if he was damaging the team it is a positive step (i accept we don't know either way).

 

Unfortunately the fact he is being made out to be the best manager since WGS is situational as opposed to characteristically, in the same way as people can say Keegan achieved a lot..... but only when backed by cash.

 

Well I'll suppose we will see on Saturday.

[Legod Third Coming]

Again situational, i would expect that from any manager that has this team, facilities and wealth behind it, anything less than that (and IMO its not great as you say championship form would be around the 60% mark).

 

Timing could be out of NC's hands dependant on what has happened, but at the start of the season, with a game in hand and 6 points of the leaders after 3 games is hardly the worst possible time. The end of season run in however would have been.

 

Success ? No not really, the JPT was a great day out but give it a few years and no one will care, it is a lower league cup. Our club will be judged on major trophies and league positions only.

 

Championship form would be around 2% higher than the greatest living manager is able to achieve... according to your assessment.

[doddisalegend]

Again situational, i would expect that from any manager that has this team, facilities and wealth behind it, anything less than that (and IMO its not great as you say championship form would be around the 60% mark).

 

Timing could be out of NC's hands dependant on what has happened, but at the start of the season, with a game in hand and 6 points of the leaders after 3 games is hardly the worst possible time. The end of season run in however would have been.

 

Success ? No not really, the JPT was a great day out but give it a few years and no one will care, it is a lower league cup. Our club will be judged on major trophies and league positions only.

 

Speak for yourself I care it's the first trophy I've seen saints win (I was only 2 in 76) as such it will always hold a special place for me.

[Legod Third Coming]

Well I'll suppose we will see on Saturday.

 

We will see over the season, not just on Saturday. But failure to appoint a new manager soon and we could be facing the same deficit as we started last season with, which would be tough on any incoming manager who will be forced to work under extreme pressure to deliver - the kind of pressure which frankly most managers at this level will never before have endured.

 

The reason why people like Mourinho and Ancelotti command such sums is that they are used to dealing in gazillions and playing with their billionnaire owner's toys. League One managers don't have that experience.

[Smirking_Saint]

Championship form would be around 2% higher than the greatest living manager is able to achieve... according to your assessment.

 

Championship form and so win percentages is relative in any league and not an indication to the manager par se. It is just indicative of the capabilities as a whole the football club holds. I don't care how good Fergie is (and he is good) he would not get anywhere near that at a club that is not considered to be a league contender.

 

Pardew's win percentage is indicative of SFC's first team squad, facilities but more importantly the wealth involved in building that. Any manager would have made a decent attempt at the playoffs and anything less would have been complete failure.

 

As for the JPT, ok, yeah it was fantastic, and i was happy to see a successful saints again however as soon as pre-season started i was gutted we are plying our trade in the third tier again and honestly i would trade the JPT for the NPC any day. (FA Cup/League cup would be different)

[Smirking_Saint]

We will see over the season, not just on Saturday. But failure to appoint a new manager soon and we could be facing the same deficit as we started last season with, which would be tough on any incoming manager who will be forced to work under extreme pressure to deliver - the kind of pressure which frankly most managers at this level will never before have endured.

 

The reason why people like Mourinho and Ancelotti command such sums is that they are used to dealing in gazillions and playing with their billionnaire owner's toys. League One managers don't have that experience.

 

Many have achieved it though. And many who have, many on here do not regard as good enough to replace the mighty Pardew.

[Legod Third Coming]

Championship form and so win percentages is relative in any league and not an indication to the manager par se. It is just indicative of the capabilities as a whole the football club holds. I don't care how good Fergie is (and he is good) he would not get anywhere near that at a club that is not considered to be a league contender.

 

Pardew's win percentage is indicative of SFC's first team squad, facilities but more importantly the wealth involved in building that. Any manager would have made a decent attempt at the playoffs and anything less would have been complete failure.

 

As for the JPT, ok, yeah it was fantastic, and i was happy to see a successful saints again however as soon as pre-season started i was gutted we are plying our trade in the third tier again and honestly i would trade the JPT for the NPC any day. (FA Cup/League cup would be different)

 

I hate to disagree but a quick resume of Ferguson's career or Mourinho's will illustrate that managers maketh clubs. Had you ever heard of Porto before they won the Champion's League? That was pretty much the equivalent of us winning it in our top flight days... Ferguson had a 58% win ratio at East Stirling years before winning a European Trophy with Aberdeen.

 

Not any manager would have made a decent attempt at the play-offs. Plenty of managers have had money and failed abysmally.

 

Pardew did a good job. Only one club in history has received a points deduction and been promoted subsequently. Yes we had money. We also had no-preseason and a fair share of hard luck. Without a points deduction the manager could easily have finished second (the team taking its foot of the gas once all chance had gone).

 

Time will tell if a better manager is appointed, but the timing and manner of Pardew's sacking represent very poor planning by any standard and could just as easily cost us another year in this league. Then what? Back to the managerial instability that served us so well? I am not one for holding onto unsuccessful managers, but ones who win football matches and trophies I'm all for...

 

You say the JPT was meaningless. Was it? Or was it part of Pardew's thinking that this club needed to establish a winning mentality?

[Smirking_Saint]

I hate to disagree but a quick resume of Ferguson's career or Mourinho's will illustrate that managers maketh clubs. Had you ever heard of Porto before they won the Champion's League? That was pretty much the equivalent of us winning it in our top flight days... Ferguson had a 58% win ratio at East Stirling years before winning a European Trophy with Aberdeen.

 

Not any manager would have made a decent attempt at the play-offs. Plenty of managers have had money and failed abysmally.

 

Pardew did a good job. Only one club in history has received a points deduction and been promoted subsequently. Yes we had money. We also had no-preseason and a fair share of hard luck. Without a points deduction the manager could easily have finished second (the team taking its foot of the gas once all chance had gone).

 

Time will tell if a better manager is appointed, but the timing and manner of Pardew's sacking represent very poor planning by any standard and could just as easily cost us another year in this league. Then what? Back to the managerial instability that served us so well? I am not one for holding onto unsuccessful managers, but ones who win football matches and trophies I'm all for...

 

You say the JPT was meaningless. Was it? Or was it part of Pardew's thinking that this club needed to establish a winning mentality?

 

Perhaps, i just don't think it is as devastating as everyone is making out.

 

IMO the fact that he was sacked so quickly with lack of planning is indicative of an off field event and not a planned sacking.

 

As for Porto they are pretty much habitual winners of cups and leagues in portugal and Fergie was at stirling for something like 100 days so not really long enough to gain an opinion in my eyes.

 

And like i said, any manager unable to bring this team and this set up success will be deemed a failure. Pardew did just what is expected and IMO if he hadn't have won the JPT probably less that expected.

[buctootim]

I think the team slightly underperformed overall under Pardew, given the quality we had. One of the failings was not solving our inability to kill off 'weaker' teams. When were good we were very good, but too often the players just didnt seem up for it. If there had been obvious incremental progress throughout his time I would have been more disappointed in his going. As it was you couldnt escape the feeling that there was some kind of intermittent but chronic misfire in the team that just didnt seem to be addressed.

Edited 2 September, 2010 by buctootim

[Legod Third Coming]

I think we'll have to agree to differ on Pardew's record. For my money, post October we showed Championship winning form. Did we draw too many games, possiby, but I am also conscious that we went from a losing team to a wining one in under a season's length. I think people are too quick to write that off as being easy because we had money. Winning and losing are club mentalities and Pardew turned our mentality around. Anyone who cannot see the progress made by Adam Lallana in a season under Pardew isn't really looking. And we are not the only team in the world capable of having a bad day. We had very few last season.

 

What time will tell is the real quality of Pardew's management. Although the new manager will have all the old excuses that a succession of managers had as a get out clause for our poor form/results. If we are mid-table or worse by Christmas will people change their minds? And if we are three managers into the new regime's tenure by next June, will people accept that perhaps our Chairman has got it wrong?

 

I genuinely hope that neither of the above transpire, but after Saturday I was confident (and so was Steve Claridge) our season was underway. Now I feel we are worse off than when Pardew arrived. That needs to be fixed quickly or gates will drop, the team will revert to a losing one and 18 months into a five year plan we will be no further forward other than alive and debt-free (themselves massive achievements of course).

[Teddy Nutkins]

I think the team slightly underperformed overall under Pardew, given the quality we had. One of the failings was not solving our inability to kill off 'weaker' teams. When were good we were very good, but too often the players just didnt seem up for it. If there had been obvious incremental progress throughout his time I would have been more disappointed in his going. As it was you couldnt escape the feeling that there was some kind of intermittent but chronic misfire in the team that just didnt seem to be addressed.

 

My feelings also.If there was a banana skin to be found we always slipped up.I still think A.P was a very good judge of a player, but struggled to affect a stalemate type of game.

[jam]

My feelings also.If there was a banana skin to be found we always slipped up.I still think A.P was a very good judge of a player, but struggled to affect a stalemate type of game.

 

I thought the Orient game was a perfect example of this - Pardew stood on the touchline apparently unsure whether to change things or not.

[SaintRichmond]

Not really if you can prove gross misconduct.

 

You are quite right that technically you do still need to follow procedure to avoid a finding of unfair dismissal on procedural grounds BUT the tribunal have discretion in awarding compensation and take the employee's conduct into account. Thus a sacking on the spot for proven gross misconduct may well lead to a finding of unfair dismissal but no compensation. The maximum award for unfair dismissal is capped at a fairly low amount also, ibearing in mind the salary AP was presumably being paid.

 

The key consideration here is breach of contract ie wrongful dismissal. NC would have had to tread carefully and ensure he had enough evidence to prove that AP's conduct was sufficient to amont to a fundamental breach of his employment contract. If the mutual trust and confidence had been shot to pieces by AP the club will not be liable to pay AP up to the end of the contract. The club might instead choose to sue AP for compensation (similar to the Mutu situation). Chances are AP and the club will just have agreed to depart company without compensation either way in return for mutual gagging clauses.

 

OK, but what I can't get my head around is this

 

The "situation" that led to The Gang Of Three being instantly dismissed was, by definition, instant

 

So, how could a mutual "gagging" contract have been implemented ??? The only way would have been for Cortese to have been carrying three said contracts around in his pocket, on the off chance that a serious incident to occur

 

And do you think that all three, having just committed the "evil deed" would have meekly said, prior to exiting the building, " OK Nicola, lend us a pen, we'll sign a gagging order right now "

 

" Something is rotten in the state of Denmark "

 

( I think even Hercule Poirot would have trouble sorting out the truth on this )

[Wes Tender]

I think we'll have to agree to differ on Pardew's record. For my money, post October we showed Championship winning form. Did we draw too many games, possiby, but I am also conscious that we went from a losing team to a wining one in under a season's length. I think people are too quick to write that off as being easy because we had money. Winning and losing are club mentalities and Pardew turned our mentality around. Anyone who cannot see the progress made by Adam Lallana in a season under Pardew isn't really looking. And we are not the only team in the world capable of having a bad day. We had very few last season.

 

What time will tell is the real quality of Pardew's management. Although the new manager will have all the old excuses that a succession of managers had as a get out clause for our poor form/results. If we are mid-table or worse by Christmas will people change their minds? And if we are three managers into the new regime's tenure by next June, will people accept that perhaps our Chairman has got it wrong?

 

I genuinely hope that neither of the above transpire, but after Saturday I was confident (and so was Steve Claridge) our season was underway. Now I feel we are worse off than when Pardew arrived. That needs to be fixed quickly or gates will drop, the team will revert to a losing one and 18 months into a five year plan we will be no further forward other than alive and debt-free (themselves massive achievements of course).

 

You were doing fine until you got to the bit highlighted. Quite how you can reason that we are somehow worse off than when Pardew arrived, is quite beyond my comprehension and I would love to hear your reasoning behind a statement which on the face of it is quite bizarre. Somebody else said that we were back to square one and I argued the toss on that, but you seem to suggest that the situation is worse.

 

When Pardew arrived, we had a squad totally demoralised, having just been relegated. A reminder of the team that played that first match against Millwall might be instructive.

 

Football League One - KO 12:45

Southampton 1 (0) - 1 (0) Millwall

Paterson 51

Abdou 67

 

Southampton: Davis, Murty, Thomas, Perry, Harding, Lallana, Wotton, Schneiderlin (Thomson, 83 ) , James (Gillett, 75 ) , Saganowski, Paterson (Gobern, 70 )

 

And Murty and Harding were not there before Pardew arrived.

 

Do I really need to say more about the improvements in the team since then? And what of the mindset of the players? Although there might be some dissention in their ranks over the departure of Pardew, at least this is a team that narrowly missed promotion, winning the majority of their matches and the Johnstone's Paint Trophy at Wembley. This is a team comprising several who were captains in former teams, players who have leadership qualities. They've seen it all before and I would expect them to quickly adapt to the new situation.

 

So let's hear you argue your case against those points.

[Legod Third Coming]

I thought the Orient game was a perfect example of this - Pardew stood on the touchline apparently unsure whether to change things or not.

 

There are no more examples of this with Pardew than any other manager, if you ask me. Soemtimes changing things makes things better, sometimes worse and most of the time no difference at all.

 

If Harding buries a chance my grandmother could have scored with, then would you have hailed Pardew a tactical genius? It was, after all, the sub who set him up with an inch perfect ball via Lallana's missed header...

 

Those are the margins in sport. If we'd gone down 2-1 despite dominating the entire game would Pardew then have been a poor manager criticised for making changes?

 

I think there's a naivety sometimes that assumes one manager is dictating the outcome of the game without any input from the other, or from a bit of luck - hitting the post twice, bar and having a left back miss a bloody sitter!

 

At no point during or after the Orient game did I feel we wouldn't get promoted once things started to click. Seven days later we hammered a decent team 4-0 away from home... Did anyone think after that game we wouldn't murder Rochdale tomorrow? Do we think that now?

[Legod Third Coming]

You were doing fine until you got to the bit highlighted. Quite how you can reason that we are somehow worse off than when Pardew arrived, is quite beyond my comprehension and I would love to hear your reasoning behind a statement which on the face of it is quite bizarre. Somebody else said that we were back to square one and I argued the toss on that, but you seem to suggest that the situation is worse.

 

When Pardew arrived, we had a squad totally demoralised, having just been relegated. A reminder of the team that played that first match against Millwall might be instructive.

 

Football League One - KO 12:45

Southampton 1 (0) - 1 (0) Millwall

Paterson 51

Abdou 67

 

Southampton: Davis, Murty, Thomas, Perry, Harding, Lallana, Wotton, Schneiderlin (Thomson, 83 ) , James (Gillett, 75 ) , Saganowski, Paterson (Gobern, 70 )

 

And Murty and Harding were not there before Pardew arrived.

 

Do I really need to say more about the improvements in the team since then? And what of the mindset of the players? Although there might be some dissention in their ranks over the departure of Pardew, at least this is a team that narrowly missed promotion, winning the majority of their matches and the Johnstone's Paint Trophy at Wembley. This is a team comprising several who were captains in former teams, players who have leadership qualities. They've seen it all before and I would expect them to quickly adapt to the new situation.

 

So let's hear you argue your case against those points.

 

You are right, that's not quite what I meant. What I meant was, I feel worse for not knowing that we may have a manager with proven ability in charge versus one who I felt/feel had the proven ability, qualities and strength to win promotion. Clearly, the club and playing squad is far, far superior. Which also begs the question - if you and I can see that, whay can't the Chairman?

[Wes Tender]

OK, but what I can't get my head around is this

 

The "situation" that led to The Gang Of Three being instantly dismissed was, by definition, instant

 

So, how could a mutual "gagging" contract have been implemented ??? The only way would have been for Cortese to have been carrying three said contracts around in his pocket, on the off chance that a serious incident to occur

 

And do you think that all three, having just committed the "evil deed" would have meekly said, prior to exiting the building, " OK Nicola, lend us a pen, we'll sign a gagging order right now "

 

" Something is rotten in the state of Denmark "

 

( I think even Hercule Poirot would have trouble sorting out the truth on this )

 

You might think it a bit bizarre to have existing contracts covering various scenarios that might occur, but why shouldn't there be? The club must have good legal counsel, so surely not beyond the realms of imagination that there are contracts already prepared to cover the signing of players, contracts for new staff and managers, but also ones that cover the circumstances of a manager/player/members of staff having to be dismissed for whatever reason.

[docker-p]

OK, but what I can't get my head around is this

 

The "situation" that led to The Gang Of Three being instantly dismissed was, by definition, instant

 

So, how could a mutual "gagging" contract have been implemented ??? The only way would have been for Cortese to have been carrying three said contracts around in his pocket, on the off chance that a serious incident to occur

 

And do you think that all three, having just committed the "evil deed" would have meekly said, prior to exiting the building, " OK Nicola, lend us a pen, we'll sign a gagging order right now "

 

" Something is rotten in the state of Denmark "

 

( I think even Hercule Poirot would have trouble sorting out the truth on this )

 

My thoughts exactly, and what sort of gross misconduct could all of them be involved in? One person is possible, but three?

[doddisalegend]

My thoughts exactly, and what sort of gross misconduct could all of them be involved in? One person is possible, but three?

 

However the club statement never said anything about gross misconduct did it? A lot of people have latched on to the pardew super love rat rumour as the reason AP went it helps them becuase that way it seems NC was forced into this and didn't just fire the manager on a whim with no back up lined up (despite the fact that chairman do such things all the time).

 

The actual statement here

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10280~2139306,00.html

 

States that it's the vital intergration of first team and devolpment squad that was the problem. It says the club reiveiwed the situation and it wasn't working. Nothing about fights, gross misconduct or anything else. Now the club could lie about it by why would they if it was gross misconduct it would be in their interests to say so.

[Wes Tender]

You are right, that's not quite what I meant. What I meant was, I feel worse for not knowing that we may have a manager with proven ability in charge versus one who I felt/feel had the proven ability, qualities and strength to win promotion. Clearly, the club and playing squad is far, far superior. Which also begs the question - if you and I can see that, whay can't the Chairman?

 

Why can't the chairman see what? I'm sure that he realises that we have made massive progress and would probably have gained automatic promotion this season. We still ought to be able to achieve that with a half-decent manager, given the quality of the squad we have. But we are unable to comment, as nobody has told us what the facts are and that is something that Cortese does know. So we must trust his judgement until we can express a valid opinion against his decision based on something concrete instead of rumour and conjecture.

 

Did anyone think after that game we wouldn't murder Rochdale tomorrow? Do we think that now?

 

That depends. We lost Lallana and Lambert seems off colour. We have lost a match against Swindon where nobody can prove that we might not have lost it under Pardew too. After all, they beat us both matches last season and it seems that Danny Wilson outsmarts Pardew tactically. We are now out of the Cup competition that we won last season, in the first round. We do not have Barnard available either. So even if Pardew had remained and none of this had happened, who's to say whether the match against Rochdale would be any easier. After all, there were teams far below us in the league last year that we couldn't beat at home.

[Liquidshokk]

Anyone live nearby to this match fancy popping along and asking Pardew what it was all about?

 

http://www.theargus.co.uk/sport/argusgeneralsportsnews/8369642.Axed_Saints_boss_pulls_on_his_boots_for_charity/?

 

Alan Pardew is expected to play at Three Bridges on Sunday less than a week after being sacked as Southampton manager The former Crystal Palace midfielder is due to turn out in a charity match organised by ex-Albion forward Simon Funnell, whose daughter Ella died of meningitis.

[Legod Third Coming]

Why can't the chairman see what? I'm sure that he realises that we have made massive progress and would probably have gained automatic promotion this season. We still ought to be able to achieve that with a half-decent manager, given the quality of the squad we have. But we are unable to comment, as nobody has told us what the facts are and that is something that Cortese does know. So we must trust his judgement until we can express a valid opinion against his decision based on something concrete instead of rumour and conjecture.

 

 

 

That depends. We lost Lallana and Lambert seems off colour. We have lost a match against Swindon where nobody can prove that we might not have lost it under Pardew too. After all, they beat us both matches last season and it seems that Danny Wilson outsmarts Pardew tactically. We are now out of the Cup competition that we won last season, in the first round. We do not have Barnard available either. So even if Pardew had remained and none of this had happened, who's to say whether the match against Rochdale would be any easier. After all, there were teams far below us in the league last year that we couldn't beat at home.

 

Personally, unless we can see some concrete rationale, I have lost some trust in the judgement of a Chairman who fires a manager when Pardew was fired. If other reasons materialise which represent gross misconduct then Cortese would have my support assuming he was presented with no alternative. However, I don't believe this is the case, or why would our Chairman not hesitate to ensure we understood this was the case?

 

It was apparent to everyone in football that Pardew was nearly sacked in June/July and if, as I expect, this was simply an inevitable consequence, it represents very, very bad management. Not that this makes me any less thankful to Nicola and Markus.

 

As regards Rochdale, you know as well as I do that football is about momentum as much as anything. The players (with or without Lambert, Lallana and Barney) should be good enough to beat Rochdale. No, there's no guarantee we would have won the game under Pardew - but I think you would be mad to be more confident or as confident without Pardew than with him, wouldn't you?

[derry]

The only announcement from the club is that Pardew, Downes and Murdoch have been relieved of their duties. In other words suspended pending termination in due course when all details are sorted. There is no doubt that they will at some point no longer work for the club but that point doesn't seem to have been reached yet as the lawyers on all sides probably do their work.

[West End Saint]

I think we'll have to agree to differ on Pardew's record. For my money, post October we showed Championship winning form. Did we draw too many games, possiby, but I am also conscious that we went from a losing team to a wining one in under a season's length. I think people are too quick to write that off as being easy because we had money. Winning and losing are club mentalities and Pardew turned our mentality around. Anyone who cannot see the progress made by Adam Lallana in a season under Pardew isn't really looking. And we are not the only team in the world capable of having a bad day. We had very few last season.

 

What time will tell is the real quality of Pardew's management. Although the new manager will have all the old excuses that a succession of managers had as a get out clause for our poor form/results. If we are mid-table or worse by Christmas will people change their minds? And if we are three managers into the new regime's tenure by next June, will people accept that perhaps our Chairman has got it wrong?

 

I genuinely hope that neither of the above transpire, but after Saturday I was confident (and so was Steve Claridge) our season was underway. Now I feel we are worse off than when Pardew arrived. That needs to be fixed quickly or gates will drop, the team will revert to a losing one and 18 months into a five year plan we will be no further forward other than alive and debt-free (themselves massive achievements of course).

 

I agree with you also Pards signings have been very good it is all very well having money but you have to spend it on the right players he did.

 

He also got the best out of the players and changed them into a team of winners, so far this season I thought we have been playing well great 1st half against Plymouth & Orient very good both halfs v Bolton excellent 4 0 away win at Brizzle. Other than turning our chances into goals we were not far away the results may not have been what we wanted but having got off the mark at Brizzle who know's ? Maybe we were off & running.

 

I will be very interested to see Saturday the attitude of the players as on Tuesday it didnt look like they were glad to see the back of a problem manager quite the reverse I got the impression they were as fed up as the fans.

 

What is done is done Pards isnt coming back but we need an appointment to lift and inspire the team and the fans and get the pre season optimism back and quickly or we are not going to have the stella season we have been expecting

[exit2]

The current player and ex player I asked both have laughed at the allegations, so again I say its all complete ********!

[Wes Tender]

Personally, unless we can see some concrete rationale, I have lost some trust in the judgement of a Chairman who fires a manager when Pardew was fired. If other reasons materialise which represent gross misconduct then Cortese would have my support assuming he was presented with no alternative. However, I don't believe this is the case, or why would our Chairman not hesitate to ensure we understood this was the case?

 

It was apparent to everyone in football that Pardew was nearly sacked in June/July and if, as I expect, this was simply an inevitable consequence, it represents very, very bad management. Not that this makes me any less thankful to Nicola and Markus.

 

As regards Rochdale, you know as well as I do that football is about momentum as much as anything. The players (with or without Lambert, Lallana and Barney) should be good enough to beat Rochdale. No, there's no guarantee we would have won the game under Pardew - but I think you would be mad to be more confident or as confident without Pardew than with him, wouldn't you?

 

In the first two paragraphs, the parts highlighted in bold are the reasons that I will not pass comment or even express an opinion as to what may have happened to justify the circumstances. All I would say though, is that considering the slashing of wrists and wringing of hands when the sh*t hit the fan, most are being a bit more circumspect about the situation now, some even accrediting Cortese with an element of trust, or benefit of the doubt at least.

 

As for the last paragraph, the forthcoming match against Rochdale, I think you know that in matters of player psychology, the right mental attitude, esprit de corps, etc, I think along the same lines as you. Often a team with the right mental attitude can beat a superior team on paper, if they play as a team and have the belief that they can win. On the face of it Pardew's departure has given them a jolt, but likewise the team might also have had their confidence knocked had they lost against Swindon under Pardew, given also the situation of Lallana, Barnard unavailable and Lambert off-colour. As to whether they would play better tomorrow with Pardew or without, that depends on what happened to bring about his departure. It could be that the circumstances were such that player unity and belief in him was shattered. Who knows?

[Legod Third Coming]

I agree with you also Pards signings have been very good it is all very well having money but you have to spend it on the right players he did.

 

He also got the best out of the players and changed them into a team of winners, so far this season I thought we have been playing well great 1st half against Plymouth & Orient very good both halfs v Bolton excellent 4 0 away win at Brizzle. Other than turning our chances into goals we were not far away the results may not have been what we wanted but having got off the mark at Brizzle who know's ? Maybe we were off & running.

 

I will be very interested to see Saturday the attitude of the players as on Tuesday it didnt look like they were glad to see the back of a problem manager quite the reverse I got the impression they were as fed up as the fans.

 

What is done is done Pards isnt coming back but we need an appointment to lift and inspire the team and the fans and get the pre season optimism back and quickly or we are not going to have the stella season we have been expecting

 

My biggest concern is the availability of someone who can do this. Equally, I am not hung up on an 'inspiring' big name manager. To be honest, when Pardew was revealed I was a bit underwhelmed. Two of my best mates are Charlton fans (in fact I'm out with them tonight which will be fun!!) and they had (prior to his appointment) given me plenty of evidence of his shortcomings.

 

But over time, he won me over. He saw the same games as me, identified the right problems and fixed them bloody quick. He saw faults three previous managers had overlooked - he gave us our first spine in possibly a decade!

 

So it's not about Martin O'Neil for me, it's about someone who can do the job. The problem is, with the possible exception of Tony Mowbray I personally haven't seen a name listed I think can do the job, let alone do it Holloway or Mourinho style...

[Legod Third Coming]

In the first two paragraphs, the parts highlighted in bold are the reasons that I will not pass comment or even express an opinion as to what may have happened to justify the circumstances. All I would say though, is that considering the slashing of wrists and wringing of hands when the sh*t hit the fan, most are being a bit more circumspect about the situation now, some even accrediting Cortese with an element of trust, or benefit of the doubt at least.

 

As for the last paragraph, the forthcoming match against Rochdale, I think you know that in matters of player psychology, the right mental attitude, esprit de corps, etc, I think along the same lines as you. Often a team with the right mental attitude can beat a superior team on paper, if they play as a team and have the belief that they can win. On the face of it Pardew's departure has given them a jolt, but likewise the team might also have had their confidence knocked had they lost against Swindon under Pardew, given also the situation of Lallana, Barnard unavailable and Lambert off-colour. As to whether they would play better tomorrow with Pardew or without, that depends on what happened to bring about his departure. It could be that the circumstances were such that player unity and belief in him was shattered. Who knows?

 

Unfortunately, I work in marketing. And twenty years of that, and 13 of Alistair Campbell have made me a cynic... What can you do? A very quick way for any board to justify an unpopular decision is to 'blame circumstances'... and then be pretty unspecific about what they are. Leaving the great unwashed to murmur, "ah circumstances, that was the the reasoning..." Create a hole and let the internet rumour machine fill it.

[Bartosz Bialkowski]

However the club statement never said anything about gross misconduct did it? A lot of people have latched on to the pardew super love rat rumour as the reason AP went it helps them becuase that way it seems NC was forced into this and didn't just fire the manager on a whim with no back up lined up (despite the fact that chairman do such things all the time).

 

The actual statement here

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10280~2139306,00.html

 

States that it's the vital intergration of first team and devolpment squad that was the problem. It says the club reiveiwed the situation and it wasn't working. Nothing about fights, gross misconduct or anything else. Now the club could lie about it by why would they if it was gross misconduct it would be in their interests to say so.

 

Not if it cannot be proven, they would have a wrongful dismissal and deformation of character case on their hands...

[Topcat]

Legod, would you fee comfortable running the Marketing under a CEO who had never managed anything in his previous career? I would not. If appointed I would dust the cv up and start arranging an exit. A banker is not a business manager.

 

PS Saints future brand value partly depends upon its image. Upsetting every newspaper and some of the broadcast media is a very dumb act by someone who does not grasp brand value. Value is more than just the P/E.

[Legod Third Coming]

Legod, would you fee comfortable running the Marketing under a CEO who had never managed anything in his previous career? I would not. If appointed I would dust the cv up and start arranging an exit. A banker is not a business manager.

 

PS Saints future brand value partly depends upon its image. Upsetting every newspaper and some of the broadcast media is a very dumb act by someone who does not grasp brand value. Value is more than just the P/E.

 

I'm happy to run the marketing under anybody to be honest. I didn't come here to make you believe in Jesus, you either do or you don't (Don Draper)... Either people can take professional advice or they can't. If they can't, I'm wasting mine and their time, and I care about mine!

 

As for Saints and its brand values, I agree although I also worked in sports marketing for a while and I know that the value of rights in the media is a really tricky area. Part of me thinks Cortese is acting now as though we are already a Premiership Club. Take Manchester United, it won't be long before they think about selling their rights directly to the media, rather than in the collective SKY agreement... They know they could make more money this way. But then, they have the brand to justify it.

 

I think our spat with the media is overblown. Most of those papers wouldn't have covered us anyway and wouldn't have put a picture in. If (or should that be when) we beat Manchester United in the FA Cup, they'll pay up quick enough, trust me!

[derry]

I'm happy to run the marketing under anybody to be honest. I didn't come here to make you believe in Jesus, you either do or you don't (Don Draper)... Either people can take professional advice or they can't. If they can't, I'm wasting mine and their time, and I care about mine!

 

As for Saints and its brand values, I agree although I also worked in sports marketing for a while and I know that the value of rights in the media is a really tricky area. Part of me thinks Cortese is acting now as though we are already a Premiership Club. Take Manchester United, it won't be long before they think about selling their rights directly to the media, rather than in the collective SKY agreement... They know they could make more money this way. But then, they have the brand to justify it.

 

I think our spat with the media is overblown. Most of those papers wouldn't have covered us anyway and wouldn't have put a picture in. If (or should that be when) we beat Manchester United in the FA Cup, they'll pay up quick enough, trust me!

 

You know what you are talking about with this. The media thing is total nonsense

[Topcat]

As for Saints and its brand values, I agree although I also worked in sports marketing for a while and I know that the value of rights in the media is a really tricky area. Part of me thinks Cortese is acting now as though we are already a Premiership Club. Take Manchester United, it won't be long before they think about selling their rights directly to the media, rather than in the collective SKY agreement... They know they could make more money this way. But then, they have the brand to justify it.

I think our spat with the media is overblown. Most of those papers wouldn't have covered us anyway and wouldn't have put a picture in. If (or should that be when) we beat Manchester United in the FA Cup, they'll pay up quick enough, trust me!

 

What it also does is suppress the promotion of the brand image with future fans, the real lifeblood of the Club. Even if we get into the Championship and then the Prem, the media are not going to do us any favours.

[Big Bad Bob]

Legod, would you fee comfortable running the Marketing under a CEO who had never managed anything in his previous career? I would not. If appointed I would dust the cv up and start arranging an exit. A banker is not a business manager.

 

Benny obv not done any research.....

 

Cortese was educated in Switzerland and England in business communication and finance. He was involved for ten years in sports business practice as head of the sports and entertainment desk at various Swiss banks, providing global services to sports and entertainment professionals. His most recent position was as an executive at Banque Heritage in Geneva where he managed the finances of billionaires. He had previously run the sports business desk for Credit Suisse.

 

I know who'd I rather have running my sports company TBH

[Topcat]

Big Bad Bob He was head of the "sports and entertainment desk" at various swiss banks providing services to sports and entertainment professionals..

 

Nothing there about managing a department (people) or managing a company. He was just an advisor to high net worth people.

[Legod Third Coming]

What it also does is suppress the promotion of the brand image with future fans, the real lifeblood of the Club. Even if we get into the Championship and then the Prem, the media are not going to do us any favours.

 

They will, don't worry. The media need us as much as we need them. I don't think many future fans read the Sun tbh, but you be assured they will cover us winning the league. They may do it cartoons, but you know what, that's as likely to do us as many favours as bad. What we need to do is win on the pitch. Simples!

[Big Bad Bob]

Big Bad Bob He was head of the "sports and entertainment desk" at various swiss banks providing services to sports and entertainment professionals..

 

Nothing there about managing a department (people) or managing a company. He was just an advisor to high net worth people.

 

Righto, carry on inhaling that helium, Officer Dibble'll rescue you in a minute...

[SaintRichmond]

You might think it a bit bizarre to have existing contracts covering various scenarios that might occur, but why shouldn't there be? The club must have good legal counsel, so surely not beyond the realms of imagination that there are contracts already prepared to cover the signing of players, contracts for new staff and managers, but also ones that cover the circumstances of a manager/player/members of staff having to be dismissed for whatever reason.

 

With respect, you miss my point

 

Of course there are gagging contracts, but you do not have them handy when an incident which causes INSTANT dismissal to be implemented

 

For example, if an "incident" occurred half way up the M1, you don't think the coach driver has a few copies handy ?? Just in case ??

 

Can you imagine the scenario ?? Punches thrown, fight broken up, then Cortese says " Oh lads, before you go, just sign these "

 

NO. If the Threesome HAVE signed gagging orders, then their departure was PLANNED

 

IF their departure was INSTANT, there would have been no TIME toprepare such documents, and under the circumstances of INSTANT dismissal, they would have most likely told Cortese to get stuffed

[Horley CTFC Saint]

Why wouldn't their employment contracts include procedures/protocols to be adhered to in the revent of dismissal?

[Big Bad Bob]

With respect, you miss my point

 

Of course there are gagging contracts, but you do not have them handy when an incident which causes INSTANT dismissal to be implemented

 

For example, if an "incident" occurred half way up the M1, you don't think the coach driver has a few copies handy ?? Just in case ??

 

Can you imagine the scenario ?? Punches thrown, fight broken up, then Cortese says " Oh lads, before you go, just sign these "

 

NO. If the Threesome HAVE signed gagging orders, then their departure was PLANNED

 

IF their departure was INSTANT, there would have been no TIME toprepare such documents, and under the circumstances of INSTANT dismissal, they would have most likely told Cortese to get stuffed

 

Why wouldn't their employment contracts include procedures/protocols to be adhered to in the revent of dismissal?

 

Exactly, all encompassing NDAs in their original contracts.

 

Something along the lines of "In the event that you leave the company, neither party will disclose reasons for leaving unless mutually agreed upon".

 

Seemples

[Legod Third Coming]

Exactly, all encompassing NDAs in their original contracts.

 

Something along the lines of "In the event that you leave the company, neither party will disclose reasons for leaving unless mutually agreed upon".

 

Seemples

 

True, but in reality when you have ever heard of an 'instant dismassal'? The only way that happens is if you drop dead on the premises. If these stories are true, Pardew and coaches might have been suspended first and then sacked - perhaps they were and they are going through compromise agreements at the moment? You are probably right, their contracts will prohibit them talking to the press in the event of a dispute - but then they wouldn't talk anyway if they value a career in football.

[benjii]

FFS - you suspend them, send them home, tell them not to come in, tell them you'll draw up a generous package if they keep their mouths shut. Send a draft copy of the compromise agreement to their lawyers, have a bit of to-ing and fro-ing, reach a settled form of agreement, both parties sign and bob's your uncle.

[benjii]

True, but in reality when you have ever heard of an 'instant dismassal'? The only way that happens is if you drop dead on the premises. If these stories are true, Pardew and coaches might have been suspended first and then sacked - perhaps they were and they are going through compromise agreements at the moment? You are probably right, their contracts will prohibit them talking to the press in the event of a dispute - but then they wouldn't talk anyway if they value a career in football.

 

 

Beat me to it. Exactly.

[Topcat]

They will, don't worry. The media need us as much as we need them. I don't think many future fans read the Sun tbh, but you be assured they will cover us winning the league. They may do it cartoons, but you know what, that's as likely to do us as many favours as bad. What we need to do is win on the pitch. Simples!

 

Yeah what do I know having run a major sponsorship deal worth in today's money £20m pa..... I took the view we needed every piece of coverage we could get right down to the mentions in real cartoons.

[Legod Third Coming]

Beat me to it. Exactly.

 

You've been through it too then

[CanadaSaint]

With respect, you miss my point

 

Of course there are gagging contracts, but you do not have them handy when an incident which causes INSTANT dismissal to be implemented

 

For example, if an "incident" occurred half way up the M1, you don't think the coach driver has a few copies handy ?? Just in case ??

 

Can you imagine the scenario ?? Punches thrown, fight broken up, then Cortese says " Oh lads, before you go, just sign these "

 

NO. If the Threesome HAVE signed gagging orders, then their departure was PLANNED

 

IF their departure was INSTANT, there would have been no TIME toprepare such documents, and under the circumstances of INSTANT dismissal, they would have most likely told Cortese to get stuffed

 

Dismissal contracts with gagging provisions are actually quite "off the peg" in nature, and most lawyers (ALL who deal in employment law) have them on file and just print them off and send them to the client. They are conspicuously lacking in detail (even in relation to the specific cause for the dismissal) because the more the detail the harder any subsequent court defence would be.

 

This approach may also be supplemented by a contractual provision, as suggested by Big Bad Bob. Any action by the employee that contravened such a term could seriously impair his settlement.

 

But, as derry said earlier, I don't think they have actually been dismissed yet - just relieved of their duties. That's all the more reason for them to stay silent (in their own interests).

[Weston Saint]

FFS - you suspend them, send them home, tell them not to come in, tell them you'll draw up a generous package if they keep their mouths shut. Send a draft copy of the compromise agreement to their lawyers, have a bit of to-ing and fro-ing, reach a settled form of agreement, both parties sign and bob's your uncle.

Fair point, I agree with you that this is the probable position.

[Legod Third Coming]

Yeah what do I know having run a major sponsorship deal worth in today's money £20m pa..... I took the view we needed every piece of coverage we could get right down to the mentions in real cartoons.

 

Sure, sponsors will want their media value. And the sponsors will exert pressure to have this 'fixed', but they may well have been brought into the strategy. They might even be on a share of the media income. I think these days standout can be achieved a whole host of ways. In a media rich environment I like the idea of us being a 'south coast club' and then people having to go to google to find out who The Sun are talking about! Most people know, of course, and just laugh it off. You know what Oscar Wilde said, "there's only one thing worse than being talked about..."