EDL demo

[Deppo]

My last post without paying so won't be able to expand on it any more (and hence why it's so long!) but actually that's one of those common(ish) misconceptions that is regularly trotted out. It is fully accept in the political sciences that Fascism (right) and Anarchism (left) are made up of far more than economic policies.

 

In fact the state control that was seen as necessary from Hitler/Mussolini came far more from the feudal ideas of the dark ages than from either Hegel, Marx or Engels.

 

This actually goes back to my point about lack of basic education when it comes to politics. The machine of Fascism, and personally i think that's a great metaphor for what it is, works on top down pyramid. The nation is effectively turned into a massive production line with the lowest forms of life (in Nazi Germany's case these where Jews, Blacks, Homosexuals and so on [referred to as Untermenschen]) used as means to produce what was needed for those above. It also explains why Fascist governments tend to be extremely effective in war situations when compared to Democracies (in the modern western sense rather than the Aristotle version).

 

In contrast the left portrays the pyramid as being inverted, with power coming from the base and any leadership effectively removed (or devolved) in the larger scale of things. Obviously there are very, very few examples of left wing government ever having really existed in the modern age - Spain in the 30's perhaps, or on a smaller scale some of the southern Italian islands - and what was construed as the left was, China; Cuba; USSR, is probably closer to being seen as state controlled capitalism.

 

The one major similarity between Hitler and some of the more larger historical figures of the Communist era was in Totalitarianism. Although with that in mind, and given the current argument about police cameras, i think it's interesting to note that neither Hitler nor Stalin had anywhere near as much surveillance of the population as currently exists on a daily basis (albeit now in the hands of private industry rather than government).

 

 

 

That's a fair point, but one that i don't think we'll see happening any time soon as there is a use in this kind of event. If we create fear we can constrain what the citizens of any country can do, be that the left or the right. I'd highly recommend you watch a documentary called The Power of Nightmares: The Rise of the Politics of Fear http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0430484/ which shows high useful this can be (and it's also pretty beautifully made on a cinematic level).

 

 

 

I'm always looking to learn so i'll probably do just that, but i do think he'll struggle to convince me that "the greatest force for good the world has ever known", in fact if anything it sounds to me to be based in the exact idea of Orientalism that Eric Said talked about in his famous book of the same name. I don't know how many here release how much we owe to the ancient islamic cultures, from mathematics to science and currency, in fact i find it incredible how such a culture can now be held up as being almost the opposite.

 

I can't remember where i read it but i was reading recently that in actual fact it the current form of radical islam that has such a bad name is in fact incredible modern, and can be traced back to the collapse of the Soviet Union and the impact that had on areas such as Afghanistan. If you want some interesting reading on Islam itself i'd suggest looking up something called ishtihad, a proud tradition in which the Koran is re-read and applied to the world in context of what exists currently, both in terms of knowledge/science as well as metaphysics (something which the radical christians in the states could definitely do with learning from).

 

Nutshell

[alpine_saint]

However dubious and distasteful it may be, at least the EDL have an agenda. The UAF just turn up to provoke a fight. And the police are just a bunch of PC stooges.

[Big John]

What about the school of thought tat says that it is 'power' that corrupts, and some men (I stresss that it usually men) want 'power' over other men.

 

It does not take much to turn some men to hatred based only ignorance, there MUST be more to this than meets the yet.

 

Most people are good and go about thir live's doing things for the right reasons and if you believe in any God, you have to believe that he (your own personal God) helps you to survive life and enhance other's lives whilst we are here. Evil is not just the temptations that we all encounter, some evil is bred.

[Big John]

there is, in my opinion, no real Left vs Right divide worth arguing about, it all boils down to good and evil.

 

What is that passage from the Bible about the love of money? Seriously, it escapes me right now...

[aintforever]

EDL and the UAF are obviously both a bunch of morons out looking for a fight. The ****ed up thing is that both their causes are essentially the same because EDL are also against a form of facism.

 

If the UAF had any brains at all they would know that if they didn't turn up to these EDL demos then no one would take any notice of the burberry clad morons, there would be no trouble and they would get zero publicity. When things like this hit the screens every nut job in the country will want to turn up to the next one for a good old punch up.

[alpine_saint]

EDL and the UAF are obviously both a bunch of morons out looking for a fight. The ****ed up thing is that both their causes are essentially the same because EDL are also against a form of facism.

 

If the UAF had any brains at all they would know that if they didn't turn up to these EDL demos then no one would take any notice of the burberry clad morons, there would be no trouble and they would get zero publicity. When things like this hit the screens every nut job in the country will want to turn up to the next one for a good old punch up.

 

The UAF membership is bolstered by scum in the same way as the EDL.

[aintforever]

The UAF membership is bolstered by scum in the same way as the EDL.

 

Totally agree, the left wing extremists are every bit as bad as the right wing. A guy at my work believes in the "all ownership is theft" nonsense. He actually cheered when news of 9/11 broke.

[hypochondriac]

well then there is no problem because this thread is discussing the current EDL meeting where violence is occurring. Can't see this can possible 'illegal'

 

I wasn't having a pop, just saying that this thread has the potential to go off topic and discuss the EDL in Southampton.

[ecuk268]

I certainly agree with this. British history is something we should be taught to be proud of. I am currently re-reading The Great Betrayal (Ian Smiths autobiography) and he talks about the British Empire "the greatest force for good the world has ever known. Britain, a small island off the coast of Europe, this mighty atom which had spread it's western christian civilisation over half the globe, introducing proper standards of freedom, of justice, and the basics of education, health and hygiene." Whatever your political persuasion I would recomend this autobiography as it is the work of a man who I consider to have been the greatest and wisest political leader of the 20th century.

 

Or you could say that it's been the root cause of many of today's problems.

 

Turfing the Arabs out of Palestine where they've lived for hundreds of years. Exploiting African countries for their raw materials. Dividing up Africa with the other colonial powers, paying no attention to ancient tribal boundaries and therefore the cause of many of todays wars.

 

Ian Smith's Rhodesia was a bastion of democracy as long as you were white. Unlike Ian Smith, De Clerk in South Africa saw the writing on the wall and began dismantling apartheid. South Africa has still got many problems but by including the white population and, as the World Cup demonstrated, they're getting there.

[hypochondriac]

Or you could say that it's been the root cause of many of today's problems.

 

Turfing the Arabs out of Palestine where they've lived for hundreds of years. Exploiting African countries for their raw materials. Dividing up Africa with the other colonial powers, paying no attention to ancient tribal boundaries and therefore the cause of many of todays wars.

 

Ian Smith's Rhodesia was a bastion of democracy as long as you were white. Unlike Ian Smith, De Clerk in South Africa saw the writing on the wall and began dismantling apartheid. South Africa has still got many problems but by including the white population and, as the World Cup demonstrated, they're getting there.

 

Because Zimbabwe is sooo much better now under black rule!

[Verbal]

Because Zimbabwe is sooo much better now under black rule!

 

I think ecuk was making a point about cause and effect. Unless you take the view - espoused by the cretinous Smith - that anyone lacking white skin is innately inferior, you can't really avoid it. Which is not to say that Mugabe isn't an equally cretinous thug, of course - he just needed the conditions created by the illegal Smith regime (notably the vicious civil war and ALL that led up to it), in order to be said thug, in a position of autocratic power.

[Deppo]

Because Zimbabwe is sooo much better now under black rule!

 

Yes, it is. There may be an objection to Mugabe, but not "black rule". They aren't the same thing.

[alpine_saint]

Totally agree, the left wing extremists are every bit as bad as the right wing. A guy at my work believes in the "all ownership is theft" nonsense. He actually cheered when news of 9/11 broke.

 

I would have lamped him one for that, I think.

[Deppo]

I would have lamped him one for that, I think.

 

I can imagine you in that office. "You are an idiot for laughing. Granted, the Americans should never have built the towers so high, they were asking for it. I saw it coming, but no-one listened to me"

[alpine_saint]

I can imagine you in that office. "You are an idiot for laughing. Granted, the Americans should never have built the towers so high, they were asking for it. I saw it coming, but no-one listened to me"

 

Thats actually quite funny for you. Well Done.

[buctootim]

I had to google EDL and UAF to find out who they were. Either I live under a stone, or they're pretty small groups without any real influence or pull amongst the general population.

[Denzil]

Apparently it all kicked off when the EDL fans noticed they were being filmed by a policeman. It incited them to be morons.

 

 

Looks like a right laugh.

[Deppo]

The EDL are gay.

[dune]

Ian Smith's Rhodesia was a bastion of democracy as long as you were white. Unlike Ian Smith, De Clerk in South Africa saw the writing on the wall and began dismantling apartheid. South Africa has still got many problems but by including the white population and, as the World Cup demonstrated, they're getting there.

 

Rhodesia and South Africa are different and the Rhodesians were far more tolerant, but they made a fatal mistake in voting not to become the fifth state of South Africa 1948. Had they voted in favour the Boers would never have won their shock election victory over the United Party and blocked the migration of Brits during this period. Instead of the 6:1 black to white ration it would have been a 2:1 ratio and South Africa would now be an economic powerhouse and a country much like Australia or Canada.

[dune]

Totally agree, the left wing extremists are every bit as bad as the right wing. A guy at my work believes in the "all ownership is theft" nonsense. He actually cheered when news of 9/11 broke.

 

My first thought was serves the yanks right and see how they like terrorist attacks, and then I saw people jumping and swiftly changed my view. The reason for my initial view was because for decades Americans financed the IRA and lefties such as the Kennedys were well in with the Irish republican cause. Successive US governments did nothing to stop the IRA funding, so 9/11 did do Britain a lot of good because it brought terrorism to their shores and supporting the IRA stopped being so fashionable.

[Robsk II]

If someone laughed at the death of loads of civillians (9/11 etc), it shows them only to be an ignorant idiot, and has nothing at all to do with politics. Idiots with politics tend to interpret them in idiotic ways, and above all else, they remain idiots. Claiming that left wing views make people into this kind of idiot is idiotic. Equally, anyone who laughs at the deaths of civillians just because they happen to be Muslim is an idiot, too. Idiots abound.

[rocknrollman no2]

Because Zimbabwe is sooo much better now under black rule!

The thing is once we had exploited those countries we had invaded,we withdrew without leaving a decent system in place and leaving them to fend for themselfs and by doing this,we caused more problems that could have been avoided.The wars between India and Pakistan were perfect examples of this.

[dune]

The thing is once we had exploited those countries we had invaded,we withdrew without leaving a decent system in place and leaving them to fend for themselfs and by doing this,we caused more problems that could have been avoided.The wars between India and Pakistan were perfect examples of this.

 

We didn't invade Rhodesia, Cecil Rhodes struck a deal with the chief of the Matabele for mineral rights. Before white settlers arrived there was hardly anyone there and the Matabele only made forrarys there from the transvaal and those who did live there that farmed the land only farmed the areas with sandy soil (a tiny area was such soil) because they used wooden tools and the hard soil wasn't easy to farm. The hard soil was however ideal and to the liking of the white settlers who used ploughs made of metal. The living standards rose for the blacks almost instantly and the infant mortality rate declined rapidly. The problems we see today in Rhodesia lie firmly at the door of Harold Wilson and the Socialists because they were not ready for self rule when Labour decided to grant it prior to the UDI. Ian Smith accepted that there must be change - he was not racist, but he knew that Mugabe would destroy the country. He was right.

[Verbal]

The problems we see today in Rhodesia lie firmly at the door of Harold Wilson and the Socialists because they were not ready for self rule when Labour decided to grant it prior to the UDI. Ian Smith accepted that there must be change - he was not racist, but he knew that Mugabe would destroy the country. He was right.

 

What nonsense. As one of countless examples, after UDI, Smith tried to do a deal with the Tories with an electoral system that would entrench black exclusion.

 

'Racial discrimination,' he said, 'may continue as long as it is justifiable and reasonable".

[rocknrollman no2]

Totally agree with you Dune about Mugabe.I think hes been a disaster for his people.Before he came to power,Zimbabwe had a good economy,one of the best health services in the world and was the most successful self governed African country.Now its economy is worse than Germany in the 30s.

As for when we first went to South Africa,we fought wars with most of the people there including the Zulus and the Boars,so i guess we did invade it in a sense(though im not questioning your knowledge,i will have to look it up later).

Times were changing in the 1960s and we could not have held onto Rhodesia without an unwanted struggle,so rather than that(like we did with a lot of our previous empire), we withdrew.Any PM would have done the same,so you cant blame Socialism for that.

But i cant believe you say Ian Smith wasnt rascist?

The black South Africans had no rights what so ever under any of the white led governments,including Smiths and things only became slightly better for them when Mandela came to power.

[dune]

What nonsense. As one of countless examples, after UDI, Smith tried to do a deal with the Tories with an electoral system that would entrench black exclusion.

 

'Racial discrimination,' he said, 'may continue as long as it is justifiable and reasonable".

 

Because Rhodesia was not ready to hand over power. The Frederation between Northern Rhodesia, Southern Rhodesia and Nyasaland had many black represntatives that Smith greatly admired and were friends with him, but after ww2 the marxists sought to overthrow the colonial system becuase the Soviets wanted world domination and they set about inflicting misery on the black population with their terrorist tactics whilst simultaneously claiming to representing them. The Marxists were excellent at this and Mugabe was their man. Smith was not reluctant to give away power because he was a white supremacist, he was reluctant to give away power because he was an African and the vacum would be filled by the marxists to the detriment of blacks and whites.

[dubai_phil]

If someone laughed at the death of loads of civillians (9/11 etc), it shows them only to be an ignorant idiot, and has nothing at all to do with politics. Idiots with politics tend to interpret them in idiotic ways, and above all else, they remain idiots. Claiming that left wing views make people into this kind of idiot is idiotic. Equally, anyone who laughs at the deaths of civillians just because they happen to be Muslim is an idiot, too. Idiots abound.

 

Oh if only that were true/

 

Without attacking you personally, the way you have worded your post shows the "Western View" of the way things are developing in the world. They are idiots - By WESTERN standards of Humanity, decency and the Christian values of the sanctity of life.

 

Unfortunately, within Islam there exists groups who wish the entire planet to live in mud huts without technology and who's only task each day is to pray 5 times and rely on handouts from "The Charity". Thos epeople are very very far from being idiots. Many of them were educated by your taxes.

 

This radicalism as I have ranted on before was expelled from moderate countries and even those now considered more radical (like Sauid & Yemen) and landed in the UK to preach their hatred. That influence has spread across all walks of life and into prisons where young moderate Muslim offenders are targetted.

 

Whether you know it or not, the World (including moderate Islam) is at war with these people. They make the Fascists of Europe seem like a Sunday School in their views.

 

The West thinks Left & Right. They'll be looking Left when the world changes from the centre

[dune]

But i cant believe you say Ian Smith wasnt rascist?

 

Believe it because it's true. He hated fascism and flew spitfires during WW2, but made fatal error when attacking a munitions train depot because he went back for second pop when there was no element of surprise. His plane was hit and he tried to gain hight in an effort to reach the sea (where he could have been picked up by the allied navy) but the plane caught fire and he had to parachute behind enemy lines. He then crossed the Alps barefoot to and made many risks to reach allied lines. 3 months it took him and any soldier missing for thi period automatically had to go home, but he didn't want to leave the theatre and by luck managed to gt reassigned to an elite spitfire squandarn who's leader was the famous johnny johnson.

 

There is no 20th century leader that has lived as much as Ian Smith. He is totally misunderstood and misrepresnted by by the commie/socilaist brigade. He is a legend.

 

Read what he has to say and no sane person would disagree that he was right : http://www.rhodesia.nl/betrayal.htm

Edited 29 August, 2010 by dune

[Verbal]

Believe it because it's true. He hated fascism and flew spitfires during WW2, but made fatal error when attacking a munitions train depot because he went back for second pop when there was no element of surprise. His plane was hit and he tried to gain hight in an effort to reach the sea (where he could have been picked up by the allied navy) but the plane caught fire and he had to parachute behind enemy lines. He then crossed the Alps barefoot to and made many risks to reach allied lines. 3 months it took him and any soldier missing for thi period automatically had to go home, but he didn't want to leave the theatre and by luck managed to gt reassigned to an elite spitfire squandarn who's leader was the famous johnny johnson.

 

There is no 20th century leader that has lived as much as Ian Smith. He is totally misunderstood and misrepresnted by by the commie/socilaist brigade. He is a legend.

 

Read what he has to say and no sane person would disagree that he was right : http://www.rhodesia.nl/betrayal.htm

 

What utter, utter nonsense. Smith was a racist. He made no bones about it himself. His war record doesn't excuse the ruthless, life-wrecking, racist brutality of his regime - the instruments of which were inherited and continued by Mugabe.

[tedmaul]

Dune, why do you spend all this time collating this information? It's a bit weird. If someone's slightly genetically different to you, there's no need to be scared.

[Robsk II]

Oh if only that were true/

 

Without attacking you personally, the way you have worded your post shows the "Western View" of the way things are developing in the world. They are idiots - By WESTERN standards of Humanity, decency and the Christian values of the sanctity of life.

 

Unfortunately, within Islam there exists groups who wish the entire planet to live in mud huts without technology and who's only task each day is to pray 5 times and rely on handouts from "The Charity". Thos epeople are very very far from being idiots. Many of them were educated by your taxes.

 

This radicalism as I have ranted on before was expelled from moderate countries and even those now considered more radical (like Sauid & Yemen) and landed in the UK to preach their hatred. That influence has spread across all walks of life and into prisons where young moderate Muslim offenders are targetted.

 

Whether you know it or not, the World (including moderate Islam) is at war with these people. They make the Fascists of Europe seem like a Sunday School in their views.

 

The West thinks Left & Right. They'll be looking Left when the world changes from the centre

 

All I actually said, Phil, was that I consider anyone who laughs at civillian death to be an idiot, regardless of their supposed political affiliation. Of course cultural and political divides go much further than these crude ideas, and as it happens I am entirely happy to say that my views exist firmly within my own ideological framework. Everyones does, of course. I am very well aware of the level of extremism present in some areas of the Muslim world and faith. And actually, I happen to believe these people are idiots, if not in the intellectual sense. I AM Western, and I'm not a chrsitian but I do have a view on the sanctity of life. Sure, I'm a result of society, as extremists are of their own environments. In a way, I don't blame them as a result - but I find their views to be terrible if they don't value life and freedom of others to live as they choose. This extends to all forms of intolerant religion or politics, to be honest.

[Guan 2.0]

 

What is that passage from the Bible about the love of money? Seriously, it escapes me right now...

 

Ans Yay, the Lord send did send a lowly earthworm to comfort Moses in his torment

[rocknrollman no2]

All I actually said, Phil, was that I consider anyone who laughs at civillian death to be an idiot, regardless of their supposed political affiliation. Of course cultural and political divides go much further than these crude ideas, and as it happens I am entirely happy to say that my views exist firmly within my own ideological framework. Everyones does, of course. I am very well aware of the level of extremism present in some areas of the Muslim world and faith. And actually, I happen to believe these people are idiots, if not in the intellectual sense. I AM Western, and I'm not a chrsitian but I do have a view on the sanctity of life. Sure, I'm a result of society, as extremists are of their own environments. In a way, I don't blame them as a result - but I find their views to be terrible if they don't value life and freedom of others to live as they choose. This extends to all forms of intolerant religion or politics, to be honest.

 

Well said Robsk II

[dune]

What utter, utter nonsense. Smith was a racist. He made no bones about it himself. His war record doesn't excuse the ruthless, life-wrecking, racist brutality of his regime - the instruments of which were inherited and continued by Mugabe.

 

You are really don't know what you are talking about. I can respect alternative views, but you have no understanding of this suject whatsoever- that is abundantly clear.

 

Edited 30 August, 2010 by dune

[Verbal]

This is ridiculous. I have no idea who you are, but someone has informed me of your views, such as they are. So I'll leave you to glorify Smith's pathetic and vicious myopia.

[solentstars]

This is ridiculous. I have no idea who you are, but someone has informed me of your views, such as they are. So I'll leave you to glorify Smith's pathetic and vicious myopia.

 

i agree with what you said and its the usual suspects and it does not suprise anyone that are spouting their usual extreme right wing dogma that they make hitler look left

wing. just like lord ha ha we have the enemy within.

[dune]

This is ridiculous. I have no idea who you are, but someone has informed me of your views, such as they are. So I'll leave you to glorify Smith's pathetic and vicious myopia.

 

You keep making assertions about IDS, but you have no knowledge of him. Basically you have the view you think you should have about him. This is fine if you are happy to form view based on ignorance, but if you wish to base a view on fact i'd suggest you educate yourself on the subject a great deal more.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

You keep making assertions about IDS, but you have no knowledge of him. Basically you have the view you think you should have about him. This is fine if you are happy to form view based on ignorance, but if you wish to base a view on fact i'd suggest you educate yourself on the subject a great deal more.

 

I've tried really hard to refrain from posting on this thread, but your continual flouting of historical fact is staggering and needs correcting. Ian Smith did declare independance from the UK, on this you are correct, however he then became Rhodesia's first Prime Minister and established white minority rule; this dune, you can't escape from or deny.

 

You can argue that he won many elections, but this was only because he excluded the majority, if not all balcks from voting - again, a fact you cannot escape from.

 

Furthermore, as for his claim about the British Empire (which I have taken solely from your quote earlier in this thread because I have not read 'The Great Betrayal') it seems to me that he is simply trying to justify his actions, as all imperial defenders seem to do. The old argument of the British leaving behind them a wake of excellent sanitation, railways and infrastructure etc is quite simply ********. From many African and Asian colonies our withdrawal was done in an extremely hap-hazard way with nothing done to prepare the native peoples for self governance.

[dune]

From many African and Asian colonies our withdrawal was done in an extremely hap-hazard way with nothing done to prepare the native peoples for self governance.

 

You are agreeing with me and Ian Smith. The Socialists engaged in a rush to get out of Africa and had they listened to people like Ian Smith this would have been a gradual process. You may well be a fresh out of uni history teacher but your grasp on the subject is still very one sided and limited imo. I would suggest you put your national curriculum text books away and do some proper research starting with reading the autobiography.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3644217/Ian-Smith-has-sadly-been-proved-right.html

Edited 30 August, 2010 by dune

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

You are agreeing with me and Ian Smith. The Socialists engaged in a rush to get out of Africa and had they listened to people like Ian Smith this would have been a gradual process. You may well be a fresh out of uni history teacher but your grasp on the subject is still very one sided and limited imo. I would suggest you put your national curriculum text books away and do some proper research starting with reading the autobiography.

 

No, if you had read what I had written properly dune you would have seen that I was disagreeing with Ian Smith's evaluation of the legacy of Empire; nowhere did I mention that hasty withdrawals in Africa/Asia was his 'fault'. Ian Smith may have been correct and a slow withdrawal may have spared Africa some of the problems it has today, however, what you also need to take into consideration was not only colonial pressure but also domestic pressure on the government to 'get out'. Furthermore, I find your condecending tone amusing seeing as you are accusing someone with post-graduate qualifications in history of not sticking to the disciplines that the subject expects as a minimum at A-level, never mind Masters level.

[dune]

No, if you had read what I had written properly dune you would have seen that I was disagreeing with Ian Smith's evaluation of the legacy of Empire; nowhere did I mention that hasty withdrawals in Africa/Asia was his 'fault'. Ian Smith may have been correct and a slow withdrawal may have spared Africa some of the problems it has today, however, what you also need to take into consideration was not only colonial pressure but also domestic pressure on the government to 'get out'. Furthermore, I find your condecending tone amusing seeing as you are accusing someone with post-graduate qualifications in history of not sticking to the disciplines that the subject expects as a minimum at A-level, never mind Masters level.

 

The main pressure to get out came from the USA and the communists, I find it strange how one so educated has missed this out of his summary of events.

[ecuk268]

The main pressure to get out came from the USA and the communists, I find it strange how one so educated has missed this out of his summary of events.

 

I think you'll find that the de-colonization of Africa was started by MacMillan in the early '60s (Kenya, Sierra Leone, South Africa, Tanzania, Uganda). Don't recall him being a communist. He recognized that the days of Empire were long gone and had neither the will nor the resources to maintain a presence where we were not wanted.

[Deppo]

So, to sum up, Ian Smith was a big, racist c*nt.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

You have to give him credit for Stanley Dun©e's persistance with his white power agenda on here. He must spend his whole life on his computer in his bedroom at his mums dedicating his life to his racist heroes.

 

Hope not Hate!

[dune]

I think you'll find that the de-colonization of Africa was started by MacMillan in the early '60s (Kenya, Sierra Leone, South Africa, Tanzania, Uganda). Don't recall him being a communist. He recognized that the days of Empire were long gone and had neither the will nor the resources to maintain a presence where we were not wanted.

 

Yep, but the pressure came from the USA and the Marxists and it was the Marxists that instigated the terrorism.

[ecuk268]

Yep, but the pressure came from the USA and the Marxists and it was the Marxists that instigated the terrorism.

 

A modicum of truth in that. If you are an oppressed majority you will turn to those who you think will help you, just as the Germans turned to Hitler after the Allies humiliated them after WW1.

 

As for the USA, they never liked the Empire. They shafted Churchill over lend/lease when they forced him to give up many exclusive trade agreements with the colonies.

[dune]

A modicum of truth in that. If you are an oppressed majority you will turn to those who you think will help you, just as the Germans turned to Hitler after the Allies humiliated them after WW1.

 

As for the USA, they never liked the Empire. They shafted Churchill over lend/lease when they forced him to give up many exclusive trade agreements with the colonies.

 

The thing is there wasn't unrest in Rhodesia until the Marxists decided to instigate it. They were behind Mugabe's rise and the tactic they used was to hurt the ordinary black people to push them towards Mugabe. Prior to this the country was peaceful and hugely progressive. It must be remembered that in the 1890's the black population was 300K but by 1980 had risen to 6 Million due to improved healthcare system introduced by the settlers and for the first time ever disease and famine were not a part of life. But it must be remembered that in 1890 the indiginous people were hunter gatherers so go from that to running their own modern democracy in 90 years was too much too quickly. The British establishment let everyone - white and black - down badly and the British politicians from that era have a great deal of blood indirectly on their hands. Gukurahundi (or the ethnic cleansing of the Matabele) would not have happened if Smith had been able to manage the gradual inclusion process, but sadly the major decisions were taken by those with no perception of the consequences of their actions.

[alpine_saint]

I see the UAF overplayed their hand in Brighton this weekend.

 

W**kers.

[Verbal]

You keep making assertions about IDS, but you have no knowledge of him. Basically you have the view you think you should have about him. This is fine if you are happy to form view based on ignorance, but if you wish to base a view on fact i'd suggest you educate yourself on the subject a great deal more.

 

You're confused twice over. First, you confuse your schoolboy crush on a myopic racist with some sort of scholarship exclusive only to you. And second, you confuse my and others' repudiation of Smith as equating with having 'no knowledge of him'.

 

Ridiculous.

[Deppo]

I see the UAF overplayed their hand in Brighton this weekend.

 

W**kers.

 

Is the Anschluss still in effect over there?