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1976_Child

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1976_Child

1976_Child

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EDL financed indirectly by Israel apparently.....

 

probably covertly financed by Ali bin Wack-job Abu Dib Dab to get the skin heads to give the Asians a kicking so that they become more easily radicalized and find their way to the Mad Mullahs. Nothing like an agent provocateur to stir up racial tensions.

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70's Mike

70's Mike

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probably covertly financed by Ali bin Wack-job Abu Dib Dab to get the skin heads to give the Asians a kicking so that they become more easily radicalized and find their way to the Mad Mullahs. Nothing like an agent provocateur to stir up racial tensions.

 

who wants to buy pompey

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Thedelldays

Thedelldays

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I don't care what UAF are supposed to have done. It's unrelated. EDL are full of morons and the whole group is populated by racist thugs looking for a good punchup.

the UAF are just as bad in every single way...and are also (again, indirectly) financed by some shady people

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Saintandy666

Saintandy666

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the UAF are just as bad in every single way...and are also (again, indirectly) financed by some shady people

 

I don't care what the UAF are. This thread is about the EDL. I wish people would stop trying to half justify what they are and what they do by saying Group X are as bad.

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Thedelldays

Thedelldays

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I don't care what the UAF are. This thread is about the EDL. I wish people would stop trying to half justify what they are and what they do by saying Group X are as bad.

 

no one is justifying anything (certainly not me)...the reason why the UAF are mentioned with the EDL as the two go hand in hand...where ever one group is, the other are across the street....

 

if one group were not present at a demo...then the trouble will be very minimal...

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bridge too far

bridge too far

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no one is justifying anything (certainly not me)...the reason why the UAF are mentioned with the EDL as the two go hand in hand...where ever one group is, the other are across the street....

 

if one group were not present at a demo...then the trouble will be very minimal...

 

By the same token, if neither group was present.............

 

:rolleyes:

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Thedelldays

Thedelldays

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UAF do have a lot of respected people behind them though, I'd rather be involved with them over the UDL anyday. At least what UAF are fighting exists.

you are having a larf right...?

 

the "leaked" document of BNP members have loads of respectable people llinked to them

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1976_Child

1976_Child

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UAF do have a lot of respected people behind them though, I'd rather be involved with them over the UDL anyday. At least what UAF are fighting exists.

 

UAF are 'supported' by muppets like Cameron because it makes them look good. The thing is UAF are just as much a bunch of fascists as the rest of them. Just after Nick Griffin won his european seat he held a press meeting outside parliament, on public ground. What ever your opinion about him and his party he had just been democratically elected and as such was perfectly within his rights to hold a press meeting. Along come the fascist UAF thugs and physically broke the meeting up. They threw things at him, punched his team members and shouted him down, denying him the right to free speech. What gives these UAF fascists the right to do that? They are nasty, vindictive thugs who think that the rest of the country should be persuaded - by violence if necessary - to support their views. Which might, or might not be also said of the BNP, EDL NF etc but it definitely can be said of the UAF.

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saint_mears

saint_mears

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UAF do have a lot of respected people behind them though, I'd rather be involved with them over the UDL anyday. At least what UAF are fighting exists.

 

The seem an organistation that is frequented with hardcore communists to be honest. Both their main faces are in court soon on violent disorder charges following arrest.

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Saintandy666

Saintandy666

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you are having a larf right...?

 

the "leaked" document of BNP members have loads of respectable people llinked to them

 

I mean actual respectable people. And not just those dangerous deluded dirty commie left wingers... people like David Cameron and stuff are known supporters.

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Thedelldays

Thedelldays

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Where are they categorised as this? Who categorises them as an extreme left wing group? David Cameron is a supporter... is he extreme left wing?

so what if cameron is a supporter....he is the PM..not the emperor...

 

I gave a security lecture about two weeks ago...and the briefs I got to give the lecture from mentioned the UAF as an extreme left group...which come under the "subversion" part of the potential security threats to the UK...

 

dont worry...the EDL and BNP (despite being democratically elected) are classed as extreme right...

 

how do you know that cameron being a "supporter" is not a ploy to win votes, influence etc etc etc....????

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Thedelldays

Thedelldays

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UAF aren't left wing or right wing really... they are just anti-fascist. It's members and supporters are people from all over society, all harbouring different views.

no...they are very left wing mate....they have some very dodgy connections and the ani-facist thing is a convenient way to cause public disorder...

 

they are as left wing as the national front are right wing...or combat 18

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dune

dune

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UAF aren't left wing or right wing really... they are just anti-fascist. It's members and supporters are people from all over society, all harbouring different views.

 

If they are anti fascists why do they march alongside islamic extremists?

 

If you wish I can provide proof of them doing so.

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dune

dune

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Mum's death threats over Wootton Bassett campaign

 

A mother-of-four has been subjected to death threats after starting a campaign to stop a protest march by Muslim hardliners through Wootton Bassett.

 

It is believed the messages have been sent by self-styled ‘anti-fascists’ and are not the work of any ethnic or religious group.

 

http://www.kentnews.co.uk/kent-news/Mum_s-death-threats-over-Wootton-Bassett-campaign-newsinkent31599.aspx?news=local

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Thedelldays

Thedelldays

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It is 'believed' the messages have sent... Anyway, I'm sure all organisations have a few shady break-off characters. The point I was trying to make in my original post though was that UAF are much more credible than the EDL.

but they are not...they are just as bad..(which has been pointed out)...

 

they are equally as bad (if not worse) than the rest of the problematic groups out there

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1976_Child

1976_Child

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It is 'believed' the messages have sent... Anyway, I'm sure all organisations have a few shady break-off characters. The point I was trying to make in my original post though was that UAF are much more credible than the EDL.

 

No. They are not much more credible. They are not even a little bit more credible. They are thugs posing as concerned citizens. They are anti-free speech. They are anti-democracy. They are anti-establishment. They are nothing more, nothing less than far-left thugs.

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dune

dune

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It is 'believed' the messages have sent... Anyway, I'm sure all organisations have a few shady break-off characters. The point I was trying to make in my original post though was that UAF are much more credible than the EDL.

 

In the 90's i demonstrated against Al Mahajiroun. The ANL (now called UAF) counter demonstrated alongside Al Mahajiroun. Have a guess which group was involved in the 7/7 terror attack in London?

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ericb

ericb

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With all due respect dune posting a video made by an EDL supporter is hardly proof, if it was from an unbiased source with no vested interest then you'd do your case more good.

 

As it stands there's plenty of well documented evidence that the EDL are extreme right wing and have various members with extremely racist and violent tendencies (the fact that they canvas for support widely amongst casual groups says as much as you need to know).

 

If it's true that they physically broke up a Nick Griffin speech then you're right they're definitely being self defeating, and personally i'm of the same opinion as Voltaire in that,

"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

 

With that in mind these people do need confronting and challenging as they represent views that most people find abhorrent, and for me at least the fact that there's people in this country who are so badly informed they fall for it is deeply depressing.

 

I do also wonder too if we need better political, historical and philosophical education in this country? Some of the comments in this thread prove that there is a deep misunderstanding of basic political thought, which that makes it hard to challenge systems that are designed to brainwash and control those that don't know better (and for these systems i also count ones dictated by legitimate government too).

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Big John

Big John

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With all due respect dune posting a video made by an EDL supporter is hardly proof, if it was from an unbiased source with no vested interest then you'd do your case more good.

 

As it stands there's plenty of well documented evidence that the EDL are extreme right wing and have various members with extremely racist and violent tendencies (the fact that they canvas for support widely amongst casual groups says as much as you need to know).

 

If it's true that they physically broke up a Nick Griffin speech then you're right they're definitely being self defeating, and personally i'm of the same opinion as Voltaire in that,

"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

 

With that in mind these people do need confronting and challenging as they represent views that most people find abhorrent, and for me at least the fact that there's people in this country who are so badly informed they fall for it is deeply depressing.

 

I do also wonder too if we need better political, historical and philosophical education in this country? Some of the comments in this thread prove that there is a deep misunderstanding of basic political thought, which that makes it hard to challenge systems that are designed to brainwash and control those that don't know better (and for these systems i also count ones dictated by legitimate government too).

 

A very important point imho.

 

Some very well educated people have some very disturbing views, and what makes that particularly dangerous is the fact that many less well educated people look up to them. I'm not even sure that education of our children would ever properly end this ignorance, I firmly believe that evil exists in this world and it's ugly head will always be with us.

 

If we have Good then does it not follow that we MUST have Evil.

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ericb

ericb

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I firmly believe that evil exists in this world and it's ugly head will always be with us.

 

If we have Good then does it not follow that we MUST have Evil.

 

Without wanting to get into the meaning of good and evil (i'll leave that to more intelligent people than me, and for those that are interested Nietzsche wrote a very good piece on it and the meaning of morality, as did Camus), I do think you have a point. Vested interests and differing personalities will always meant that there are certain extremes, but [in my opinion] a higher basic level of education would see the silent support for many of these ideas wiped out.

 

Just look at how racists and fascists have been forced to become more "sophisticated" in their tripe since even the 70's and 80's. Why? Because the reality of their rubbish was exposed for what it was - fear of the unknown - and now the enemy has become a different unknown. One little quirk i've always found interesting about this new right though is that (and again this is documented) Nick Griffin actually had strong links with the Nation of Islam (NoI) in the states in the late 80s since both had similar mindsets on "repatriation" (NoI holding the equally abhorrent Black Star Liner theory of returning to Africa and that white people where the devil).

 

Funnily enough these strong links changed and were glossed over the minute political capital could be made [for their underlying cause of racism] from "the threat of Islam".

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1976_Child

1976_Child

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With all due respect dune posting a video made by an EDL supporter is hardly proof, if it was from an unbiased source with no vested interest then you'd do your case more good.

 

As it stands there's plenty of well documented evidence that the EDL are extreme right wing and have various members with extremely racist and violent tendencies (the fact that they canvas for support widely amongst casual groups says as much as you need to know).

 

If it's true that they physically broke up a Nick Griffin speech then you're right they're definitely being self defeating, and personally i'm of the same opinion as Voltaire in that,

"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

 

With that in mind these people do need confronting and challenging as they represent views that most people find abhorrent, and for me at least the fact that there's people in this country who are so badly informed they fall for it is deeply depressing.

 

I do also wonder too if we need better political, historical and philosophical education in this country? Some of the comments in this thread prove that there is a deep misunderstanding of basic political thought, which that makes it hard to challenge systems that are designed to brainwash and control those that don't know better (and for these systems i also count ones dictated by legitimate government too).

 

What we need is just better education full stop. But perhaps we need to stop and ask why people are prepared to join the EDL and BNP in he first place. Maybe if the main parties were a bit more different and actually addressed the concerns of the EDL supporters rather than closet themselves away in million pound houses in Islington there might be less of a pull to the extremes. It really is not rocket science. Too often the perception is that the ruling elites just don't give a stuff about white working class Britain and give undue attention to Moslems and other ethnic minorities. Note I used the word 'perception'. It really doesn't matter what the truth is. People react to their collection perception, that is how humans interpret the world around them otherwise there is just too much information to filter. And when one perceives that one does not have the full attention of the ruling elite then one is more likely to look for that attention else where. The rise of the BNP and EDL can be squarely laid at the feet of the main parties, in particular the Labour party who quiet brazenly admitted to having an open-door immigration policy.

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dune

dune

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I do also wonder too if we need better political, historical and philosophical education in this country?

 

I certainly agree with this. British history is something we should be taught to be proud of. I am currently re-reading The Great Betrayal (Ian Smiths autobiography) and he talks about the British Empire "the greatest force for good the world has ever known. Britain, a small island off the coast of Europe, this mighty atom which had spread it's western christian civilisation over half the globe, introducing proper standards of freedom, of justice, and the basics of education, health and hygiene." Whatever your political persuasion I would recomend this autobiography as it is the work of a man who I consider to have been the greatest and wisest political leader of the 20th century.

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ericb

ericb

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Fascism is actually quite left wing. Well... Hitler was anyway.

 

My last post without paying so won't be able to expand on it any more (and hence why it's so long!) but actually that's one of those common(ish) misconceptions that is regularly trotted out. It is fully accept in the political sciences that Fascism (right) and Anarchism (left) are made up of far more than economic policies.

 

In fact the state control that was seen as necessary from Hitler/Mussolini came far more from the feudal ideas of the dark ages than from either Hegel, Marx or Engels.

 

This actually goes back to my point about lack of basic education when it comes to politics. The machine of Fascism, and personally i think that's a great metaphor for what it is, works on top down pyramid. The nation is effectively turned into a massive production line with the lowest forms of life (in Nazi Germany's case these where Jews, Blacks, Homosexuals and so on [referred to as Untermenschen]) used as means to produce what was needed for those above. It also explains why Fascist governments tend to be extremely effective in war situations when compared to Democracies (in the modern western sense rather than the Aristotle version).

 

In contrast the left portrays the pyramid as being inverted, with power coming from the base and any leadership effectively removed (or devolved) in the larger scale of things. Obviously there are very, very few examples of left wing government ever having really existed in the modern age - Spain in the 30's perhaps, or on a smaller scale some of the southern Italian islands - and what was construed as the left was, China; Cuba; USSR, is probably closer to being seen as state controlled capitalism.

 

The one major similarity between Hitler and some of the more larger historical figures of the Communist era was in Totalitarianism. Although with that in mind, and given the current argument about police cameras, i think it's interesting to note that neither Hitler nor Stalin had anywhere near as much surveillance of the population as currently exists on a daily basis (albeit now in the hands of private industry rather than government).

 

But perhaps we need to stop and ask why people are prepared to join the EDL and BNP in he first place.

 

That's a fair point, but one that i don't think we'll see happening any time soon as there is a use in this kind of event. If we create fear we can constrain what the citizens of any country can do, be that the left or the right. I'd highly recommend you watch a documentary called The Power of Nightmares: The Rise of the Politics of Fear http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0430484/ which shows high useful this can be (and it's also pretty beautifully made on a cinematic level).

 

Whatever your political persuasion I would recomend this autobiography as it is the work of a man who I consider to have been the greatest and wisest political leader of the 20th century.

 

I'm always looking to learn so i'll probably do just that, but i do think he'll struggle to convince me that "the greatest force for good the world has ever known", in fact if anything it sounds to me to be based in the exact idea of Orientalism that Eric Said talked about in his famous book of the same name. I don't know how many here release how much we owe to the ancient islamic cultures, from mathematics to science and currency, in fact i find it incredible how such a culture can now be held up as being almost the opposite.

 

I can't remember where i read it but i was reading recently that in actual fact it the current form of radical islam that has such a bad name is in fact incredible modern, and can be traced back to the collapse of the Soviet Union and the impact that had on areas such as Afghanistan. If you want some interesting reading on Islam itself i'd suggest looking up something called ishtihad, a proud tradition in which the Koran is re-read and applied to the world in context of what exists currently, both in terms of knowledge/science as well as metaphysics (something which the radical christians in the states could definitely do with learning from).

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Saintandy666

Saintandy666

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Interesting post and read, thanks for that. What I have always tried to do though is look beyond the basic left right spectrum that personally I see as a bit defunct once you look past economic policy and look instead at another spectrum on social policy and beliefs which is why I came to the conclusion Hitler was actually quite left wing, but on the social policy side he is definitely at the no social freedoms end.

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