Southampton 1 - 1 Leyton Orient - Post match reaction

[VectisSaint]

Here's my comments, without even being at the game. Tell me if I'm wrong.

1 We need to teach Jaidi to pass short

2 Puncheon is a great....backup to Lallana

3 We need a creative midfielder

4 We need a winger with pace who can also be direct

5 Hammond has lost his way

6 WE NEED A PLAN B!!

7 We need another striker in the mould of RL so that we can replace him with fresh legs

8 We need to teach Davis how to distribute the ball properly, and how to kick

9 We need to teach Barnard to stop whinging at time wasting by the opposition keeper so that his energy is properly channelled instead of into frustration

10 We need a Plan A!!!

Edited 22 August, 2010 by VectisSaint

[Toomer]

The fans turned up yesterday to give Markus a good send off shame some of the players did not.

[alpine_saint]

The fans turned up yesterday to give Markus a good send off shame some of the players did not.

 

This.

 

And that is the managers fault. No-one else's.

[JackFrost]

7 We need another striker in the mould of RL so that we can replace him with fresh legs

8 We need to teach Davis how to distribute the ball properly, and how to kick

9 We need to teach Bernard to stop whinging at time wasting by the opposition keeper so that his energy is properly channelled instead of into frustration

10 We need a Plan A!!!

 

Things are looking bleak if Olivier Bernard has re-signed for us

[Saint Fan CaM]

This.

 

And that is the managers fault. No-one else's.

 

Well I would agree with you if there was clear evidence that AP told them NOT to win! Otherwise, if a Manager tells his players to go out and win it for Markus and then they don't get the breaks or some of them don't perform as they should, why should the Manager get the blame? Players cross the line and then it's their ability to play to their highest standard that determines a result - or to put it another way, Managers can only work with the players at their disposal. But hey, if you slate AP enough I guess as he's most likely to be sacked before the players, you'll be able to claim a know-all victory. Let me be the first to congratulate you on that.

[explorer saint]

Trying to keep positive after a days reflection, we played poorly but their keeper had a blinder plus we hit the woodwork twice and a pen appeal turned down. Its better we start the season poorly than finish it poorly we are still only 6 points off top spot and have another 132 points to play for.

[derry]

Serie A has not started yet

 

The person who told me thought the game mentioned was European, as I said not verified.

[Charlie Wayman]

Today's 'word' from somebody who is friends with a former-player is that Pardew may be on his way. Don't shoot the messenger!

[shurlock]

The person who told me thought the game mentioned was European, as I said not verified.

 

Wasnt it the preseason friendly against Spurs?

[RonManager]

He played for 80 mins in the friendly v. Spurs and did indeed assist in a goal.

 

....

[Window Cleaner]

Today's 'word' from somebody who is friends with a former-player is that Pardew may be on his way. Don't shoot the messenger!

 

but then again he may not;),anyway I very much doubt that it's AP we need to change in the immediate future I'd say we rather need to look at the one dimensional coaching staff.

Edited 22 August, 2010 by Window Cleaner
not finished

[derry]

Wasnt it the preseason friendly against Spurs?

 

I don't know but it could be. The point however was that he was playing in Fiorentina's first team. I wish he had stayed here but Pardew didn't want him, anyway I don't think he was that keen on staying with Pardew as manager.

[itchen_dan]

For a while now I have been crying out for Jaidi to be dropped an be replaced with Seaborne. I really liked Hammond last season but towards the end he drifted off and has begun this season the same. Just because he's captain doesn't mean that he is guaranteed a start. Make Fonte captain because he is the only one along with Davis, Lallana and Lambert who are 9/10 most likely to be on the team sheet.

 

My Ideal Team would be

 

Davis

 

Richardson - Fonte - Seaborne - Harding

 

Lallana - Schneiderlin - Puncheon - Dickson

 

Lambert - Barnard

 

I'd put Puncheon in the middle because he always seems to want to drift infield and I feel that he would compliment Schneiderlin well.

[derry]

but then again he may not;),anyway I very much doubt that it's AP we need to change in the immediate future I'd say we rather need to look at the one dimensional coaching staff.

 

True or not I haven't a clue but the word 'disillusioned' has been mentioned. The answer to my question 'why doesn't he just go then if he feels like that' was 'compensation'.

[alpine_saint]

Well I would agree with you if there was clear evidence that AP told them NOT to win! Otherwise, if a Manager tells his players to go out and win it for Markus and then they don't get the breaks or some of them don't perform as they should, why should the Manager get the blame? Players cross the line and then it's their ability to play to their highest standard that determines a result - or to put it another way, Managers can only work with the players at their disposal. But hey, if you slate AP enough I guess as he's most likely to be sacked before the players, you'll be able to claim a know-all victory. Let me be the first to congratulate you on that.

 

Nope, not having this. He picks the team and can drop non-performing players or make substitutions..

 

Puncheon sounds like he has been utterly crap this season so far, for example. And Jaidi sounds like he needs to move on.

[Andy_Porter]

He hasn't been utterly crap, what a ridiculous thing to say.

 

He's just been slightly out of form, by no means one of our worst players.

[Cabrone]

Nope, not having this. He picks the team and can drop non-performing players or make substitutions..

 

Puncheon sounds like he has been utterly crap this season so far, for example. And Jaidi sounds like he needs to move on.

 

But by all accounts the team looked great up until they scored the goal then they fell away.

 

That to me indicates that the performance was by and large the fault of the players - if they can perform well before scoring why can't they maintain that same level of consistency after they have scored?

 

AP can't change their mentality during the game - they really do have to take that responsibility themselves.

[alpine_saint]

But by all accounts the team looked great up until they scored the goal then they fell away.

 

That to me indicates that the performance was by and large the fault of the players - if they can perform well before scoring why can't they maintain that same level of consistency after they have scored?

 

AP can't change their mentality during the game - they really do have to take that responsibility themselves.

 

Then it is a fitness issue or an inability to change it about when Orient adapted to our play.

 

Both also the manager's fault.

[AussieDog]

This.

 

And that is the managers fault. No-one else's.

 

nope....it's the PLAYERS fault - when was the last time a Manager scored a winning goal or saved a penalty? For all we know they are playing like world-beaters in training - yet put them out on the pitch they lose their way. There is only so much a Manager can do, and once they are on that pitch they have to step up and take responsibility for their actions.

I still believe we will have an excellent season - but if results are going against us at the moment, then it's down to the right people to accept responsibility for that, and then to take steps to put it right. All this "pressure of being favourites" is bullcr4p. Pressure is what you make it, and if you can't handle that type of pressure you need to put your hand up and say so and give the Manager the opportunity to move you on and replace you with people who CAN. Winners never quit and quitters never win!

[sadoldgit]

This.

 

And that is the managers fault. No-one else's.

 

What? So the players are not responsible at all? You really do come out with some rubbish Alpine.

[sadoldgit]

But by all accounts the team looked great up until they scored the goal then they fell away.

 

That to me indicates that the performance was by and large the fault of the players - if they can perform well before scoring why can't they maintain that same level of consistency after they have scored?

 

AP can't change their mentality during the game - they really do have to take that responsibility themselves.

 

Spot on, although I think Pardew should move to Austria because it is obviouly much easier to see what is needed through the refined air of the Alps : )

[ottery st mary]

Saints did this performance on purpose......They knew damn well it had taken me 5 hours to drive up from Devon..

Air show cancelled..Fog, Rain and millions of punters blocking my route at every turn...I hour 45 on my return home last night...

 

I still saw enough in the game and the side to see us winning the league..Good times to come ...The quality is definitely there and we with two/three additions this week will zoom up the table...

 

Pards and team together with King Nic and the family will make this work....

 

PS If the family could pick me up at Exeter airport enroute for future games I will be able to give a little more vocal support..In the Jet..

 

Respect TO the Liebherr family..God bless Markus and all Saints fans.............Even the axe grinders...

Edited 22 August, 2010 by ottery st mary
because I am an idiot..

[The Cat]

Puncheon is clearly not rubbish, however he is very frustrating. It's almost like he can't do 2 good things in a row. He'll do an amazing bit of skill to get into a decent position but then waste or delay the pass, or wriggle past a few players and then put in a misdirected cross.

 

It's inconsistency that has stopped him developing into a top class player - which is why he's in league 1.

 

As for yesterdays performance, well it was ok. We created enough to win it comfortably but were denied by an in-form keeper, the woodwork and a hideous miss by Harding. After the game I was chatting to some Orient fans who said they thought Saints were an amazing team who would comfortably get promoted and couldn't believe their luck to have gained a point out of the game.

[NickG]

Pardew should not instruct his team to hit the post twice and allow their keeper to play out of his skin.

[alpine_saint]

Pardew should not instruct his team to hit the post twice and allow their keeper to play out of his skin.

 

Keep clutching them straws.....

 

The facts are 1 point from the first 2 home games. Not even mid-table form, let alone auto promotion form.

[Running Man]

Keep clutching them straws.....

 

The facts are 1 point from the first 2 home games. Not even mid-table form, let alone auto promotion form.

 

Hi Alps - must say I agree with your post of late. We're playing an extremely dangerous game leaving transfers this late. I can't see Pardew being around a lot longer personally. Perhaps we should have a sweepstake thread?

[OldNick]

Keep clutching them straws.....

 

The facts are 1 point from the first 2 home games. Not even mid-table form, let alone auto promotion form.

 

Alps i did not go to the game and so refrain from giving opinions on the performance.

 

From the reports from my family members and fans from on here who went said that, we should have scored 2-3 goals before we did. orient scored form their only chance in the first half (de ja vu Plymouth game) we were not as good after they equalised but still should have won if not for some good goalkeeping.

I alos am frustrated that we have not won as yet, but I hope the club do as we both wish and sign some quality then we will sonn be up and running. The concensus is that we need to improve pace on the wings, a back up of a big centre forward and a midfielder. If we get those then it will be good.

As at least another has said , it is better to start slowly and have a good end to the season as we have all seen the early pacesetters drift away. it will lessen the pressure if we are not topo right from the start and will soften expectations.

[NickG]

Keep clutching them straws.....

 

The facts are 1 point from the first 2 home games. Not even mid-table form, let alone auto promotion form.

 

quite aware of that and have commented on where I think the weaknesses have been in all 3 games I have seen this season.

[madruss]

Start of the game reminded me of the huddersfield game last season. Main difference this time was that the hatful of chances we had didn't result in a hatful of goals. In fact I'd go as far to say that the chances we had yesterday were better than the ones in the huddersfield game, yet we ended up with 4 fewer goals! To all those whinging that the performance was the worst ever, would you rather we were playing utter sh*te and fluking a 1 goal win with 1 chance, or creating a lot of excellent chances but finding the post and an in form keeper? I'd rather have the latter, we'll win a lot more games that way

[sadoldgit]

Keep clutching them straws.....

 

The facts are 1 point from the first 2 home games. Not even mid-table form, let alone auto promotion form.

 

Remind me again, when was the last time a season was decided 2 games in?

 

Neither of us was at the game yesterday so both of us have taken a view from what others have said. I note that we made good chances and probably should have won. Your view seems to be that Pardew is inept and the season is over for us.

[alpine_saint]

Hi Alps - must say I agree with your post of late. We're playing an extremely dangerous game leaving transfers this late. I can't see Pardew being around a lot longer personally. Perhaps we should have a sweepstake thread?

 

You havent been around a lot in recent times, mate. Thought you'd disappeared.

[alpine_saint]

Remind me again, when was the last time a season was decided 2 games in?

 

Neither of us was at the game yesterday so both of us have taken a view from what others have said. I note that we made good chances and probably should have won. Your view seems to be that Pardew is inept and the season is over for us.

 

Nope, my view is that Pardew hasnt got what it takes and its almost over for him.

[Saint_Mabes]

This!

 

2 players will do me tho.

 

I've changed my mind, we do need three players. In order of preferance - Central midfielder, Striker, Winger

[sadoldgit]

Nope, my view is that Pardew hasnt got what it takes and its almost over for him.

 

I see. The only manager you have supported in recent years one 3 matches in 13. You may well be right about Pardew (almost being over that is). If he does go I wonder how long it will be before you are on the new guys back?

 

However I think there are plenty of people who saw the good in last season and do think that Pardew has what it takes.

[Saint_Mabes]

For a while now I have been crying out for Jaidi to be dropped an be replaced with Seaborne. I really liked Hammond last season but towards the end he drifted off and has begun this season the same. Just because he's captain doesn't mean that he is guaranteed a start. Make Fonte captain because he is the only one along with Davis, Lallana and Lambert who are 9/10 most likely to be on the team sheet.

 

My Ideal Team would be

 

Davis

 

Richardson - Fonte - Seaborne - Harding

 

Lallana - Schneiderlin - Puncheon - Dickson

 

Lambert - Barnard

 

I'd put Puncheon in the middle because he always seems to want to drift infield and I feel that he would compliment Schneiderlin well.

 

I think the problem with this would be no hardman in midfield. Would be fine when attacking, i.e. first 15mins of today, but once we lose our way, I can imagine that midfield getting swamped. I actually quite like the sub idea pardew had of taking Hammond off, putting puncheon in the middle and letting OXO have a go at injecting some life. Although preferably I would want a new signing for centre mid and a new winger.

[ulstersaint]

Here's my comments, without even being at the game. Tell me if I'm wrong.

1 We need to teach Jaidi to pass short

2 Puncheon is a great....backup to Lallana

3 We need a creative midfielder

4 We need a winger with pace who can also be direct

5 Hammond has lost his way

6 WE NEED A PLAN B!!

 

I was at the Plymouth & Bournemouth games but not Orient; my view is that Hammond has not improved on last season and probably gone backwards. He lacks pace and does not keep the play moving. With Spider it means we have two CMs who are slow. Perhaps time for the creative box-to-box player midfielder we have needed for a long time.

[OldNick]

Nope, my view is that Pardew hasnt got what it takes and its almost over for him.

 

I can't make my mind up about AP. I think we need as a club to get stability and give a manager time , but if NC has doubts and is withholding funds as he wants a another to spend the money then he should act and not leave the club in limbo while he waits for the fans to turn on the manager.If AP and Nc do have a working rleationship and they are BOTH in on the way this is being handled then fine.

[NickG]

Nope, my view is that Pardew hasnt got what it takes and its almost over for him.

 

terrible start to last season, 9 points in first 10 games.

 

Last 10 months of the season:

 

however, 74 points in the next 36 games. (leeds got 60 points in that time).

 

and winning a trophy

 

shows he addressed the problems and has shown to me he has what it takes to get a return of points (over 2 per game) to get promotion.

 

Needs to address some issues now but not major ones.

[sadoldgit]

terrible start to last season, 9 points in first 10 games.

 

Last 10 months of the season:

 

however, 74 points in the next 36 games. (leeds got 60 points in that time).

 

and winning a trophy

 

shows he addressed the problems and has shown to me he has what it takes to get a return of points (over 2 per game) to get promotion.

 

Needs to address some issues now but not major ones.

 

No point in using facts and stats Nick. Once Alps has made his mind up that is it. I am not quite sure what his criteria for judging a manager is, but only Pearson seems to have passed muster in recent years.

[alpine_saint]

terrible start to last season, 9 points in first 10 games.

 

Last 10 months of the season:

 

however, 74 points in the next 36 games. (leeds got 60 points in that time).

 

and winning a trophy

 

shows he addressed the problems and has shown to me he has what it takes to get a return of points (over 2 per game) to get promotion.

 

Needs to address some issues now but not major ones.

 

It really doesnt matter how often you repeat this post, fact is we are rapidly digging as deep a hole for ourselves as last season, where we left ourselves too much to do. The validity of your argument is wearing paper-thin.

 

We were told winning in pre-season didnt matter

 

then we were told winning the first game didnt matter

 

then we were told yesterday does matter either

 

Now we see some people are talking about 10 games, by which time promotion is GONE.

[alpine_saint]

No point in using facts and stats Nick. Once Alps has made his mind up that is it. I am not quite sure what his criteria for judging a manager is, but only Pearson seems to have passed muster in recent years.

 

What, like you have about Cortese ?

 

The hypocrisy in your hectoring is astounding.

[Legod Third Coming]

I'm not slitting my writsts yet - in fact, when we get to a decent price like 4/1 or 9/2 I will back us to win the league BUT...

 

We do need the Chairman and manager to agree what we need and get on and sign them. And we need to drop underperforming players but that relies on having better replacements...

 

To be fair, Rickie's not fit yet and Barnard will score 30 once he gets his first, but some of the old weaknesses still apply.

 

Simple lesson in football: when we have the ball, keep it and use it. Don't kick it in the fecking air. As Cloughie would have said, if God meant football to be played in the sky...

[up and away]

cant believe the stick Punch is getting, one of the better players yesterday, especially 1st half, along with Barnard. Hammond was well off his game though. Jaidi clearly tired in the 2nd half, passing (or lack of) showed. Lambert and Adam not fit.

 

In short, we need 2 or 3 more players, but AP knows this.

 

I am not going to argue that some players were not at their best, or faded away after a period, but some perspective please as you pointed out. When Hammond first came to us he put in some monster performance and not just a couple. And how many were delighted with Puncheons performances? with only AL and RL being excused errors.

 

This to me is more about coaching and tactics, where the lack of midfield control has always just been below the surface, causing all amounts of secondary problems. Go back to the start of last season to see how bad the defence was, suddenly rectified by Wotton playing defensive central midfield. We had so much control it allowed the other players to strut their stuff and take the **** out of teams. The more I see of Fonte, I believe he could take on this role with ease, even to the extent of breaking forward and scoring, either directly or by assist. Although things worked remarkably well, the Connelly factor took Pardew down another route, never being able to recover or reconsider the decision. Then against Pompey we found that with sufficient quality players operating at a high tempo, we were too much for any team in this league. The problem being that we could rarely (if ever) maintain that tempo with two games a week, the midfield disappeared and the opposition just had their way with us as it suited.

 

You can easily see a good attacking midfielder coming in and turning things around, but I still believe the basic problem will remain. Come the heavy grounds and fixture congestion it will be back to the same old. The midfield platform to allow all the other players to do their job is just not there. Even without all our attacking options, we have more than enough fire power to overwhelm any league 1 team, but you must have the platform to allow that to happen. Give Jaidi cover and it would not surprise me he looks as sound as a pound, with an easy outlet to PASS the ball onto.

 

I don't believe these players have all suddenly gone rotten, more the system / tactics is leaving them exposed and they end up fighting fires, rather than pressurising the opposition.

[NickG]

It really doesnt matter how often you repeat this post, fact is we are rapidly digging as deep a hole for ourselves as last season, where we left ourselves too much to do. The validity of your argument is wearing paper-thin.

 

We were told winning in pre-season didnt matter

 

then we were told winning the first game didnt matter

 

then we were told yesterday does matter either

 

Now we see some people are talking about 10 games, by which time promotion is GONE.

 

you know thats not what is being said. Do you agree that shows that AP did a good job last season addressing issues and building a good side?

[sadoldgit]

What, like you have about Cortese ?

 

The hypocrisy in your hectoring is astounding.

 

I shall explain it t you once more Alps as you seem to miss the point entirely. I am not overly bothered about Cortese's PR gaffes although you would think that someone so self aware would know better. The bloke may well be a control freak and I am not going to lose any sleep over that, as I didn't with Lowe. There are two issues I have.

 

The first is that there seems to be little difference between Cortese and Lowe, yet for you, Cortese can do no wrong and Lowe did no right.

 

The second, which is actually very important, is that he pointedly failed to support his manager last season and even when he was forced into making a statement was less than supportive.

 

It is very important that the CEO and manager have a good working relationship - expecially when expectations are so high. We were told that Lowe should butt out of football/team matters as he was not a football man. Cortese also comes from a business background and is not a football man. Suddenly it is ok.

 

Cortese has a very big decision to make. He either has to decide to keep Pardew and back him to the hilt now. If he really doesn't believe in Pardew, then he must sack him and get someone else in. That is fine, but he was the man who employed Pardew in the first place remember.

 

So here is the thing. If Cortese has, in the course of one season, become very clued up in this game and can see that Pardew's tactics and methods are flawed, great. If on the other hand, he has had a hissy fit because he didn't get promotion in year one and that is why he is down on Pardew, then we have a problem and can look forward to another period of revolving doors at the club.

[CitySaint]

I really don't know, what game a lot of people watch and which game they are attending.

 

I think we were poor, and i think Jaidi at centre back is a real concern as were Hammond and Puncheon.

 

Think we need some added creativity from somewhere, and it's not in the squad.

 

Same Old though, we just need to bring in 3/4 players to have options on the bench when things aren't going well. Pardew doesn't seem to know his Plan B, as there is not one available. Think we will see some transfer market activity this week and definitely before the end of September.

[Weston Saint]

I shall explain it t you once more Alps as you seem to miss the point entirely. I am not overly bothered about Cortese's PR gaffes although you would think that someone so self aware would know better. The bloke may well be a control freak and I am not going to lose any sleep over that, as I didn't with Lowe. There are two issues I have.

 

The first is that there seems to be little difference between Cortese and Lowe, yet for you, Cortese can do no wrong and Lowe did no right.

 

The second, which is actually very important, is that he pointedly failed to support his manager last season and even when he was forced into making a statement was less than supportive.

 

It is very important that the CEO and manager have a good working relationship - expecially when expectations are so high. We were told that Lowe should butt out of football/team matters as he was not a football man. Cortese also comes from a business background and is not a football man. Suddenly it is ok.

 

Cortese has a very big decision to make. He either has to decide to keep Pardew and back him to the hilt now. If he really doesn't believe in Pardew, then he must sack him and get someone else in. That is fine, but he was the man who employed Pardew in the first place remember.

 

So here is the thing. If Cortese has, in the course of one season, become very clued up in this game and can see that Pardew's tactics and methods are flawed, great. If on the other hand, he has had a hissy fit because he didn't get promotion in year one and that is why he is down on Pardew, then we have a problem and can look forward to another period of revolving doors at the club.

 

Bern,

 

The difference between Lowe & Cortese, is as you say, very little.

 

The BIG difference last time was that Lowe was part of a plc. If he went someone else would come in. Cortese was Marcus Liebherr's only choice to run his business and the family look set to continue that support. If, as looks likely, there is a difference between Cortese & Pardew, something has to give. Without Cortese & the Liebherr families private wealth (not the Mali Company) we will be going no where.

 

Anyway, for me this is not about Cortese but a Manager who is clearly not good enough. Not just Cortese's opinion, a rising number of supporters are expressing the same view. Other Chairmen/CEO/Supporters of other clubs have expressed the same opinion.

 

I fear your aguments with Alpine are clouding your judgement as to the real issues

[saintjay77]

Bern,

 

The difference between Lowe & Cortese, is as you say, very little.

 

The BIG difference last time was that Lowe was part of a plc. If he went someone else would come in. Cortese was Marcus Liebherr's only choice to run his business and the family look set to continue that support. If, as looks likely, there is a difference between Cortese & Pardew, something has to give. Without Cortese & the Liebherr families private wealth (not the Mali Company) we will be going no where.

 

Anyway, for me this is not about Cortese but a Manager who is clearly not good enough. Not just Cortese's opinion, a rising number of supporters are expressing the same view. Other Chairmen/CEO/Supporters of other clubs have expressed the same opinion.

 

I fear your aguments with Alpine are clouding your judgement as to the real issues

 

I don't think there was anything wrong with SOG's comments. Basicly it looked like he was saying he hopes NC makes a decision on pardew based on correct football reasons rather than a falling out over lack of promotion last season.

 

Lowe was known for not backing managers and rightly or wrongly he was hated for it. Personally I thought lowe was trying to do what he thought was right for the club but got too many key decisions wrong. NC is much the same and will do what he thinks is best for the club and I hope he gets more right than Lowe did.

 

I think he will and if he does get rid of pardew I believe it will be because he has a plan that will take us forward in the way Markus and NC wanted us to go. Hopefully it will include a better manager that he will have already lined up rather than hit the sack button then try to wing it for a while with another gray or wigley.

 

I don't think the panic button needs to be hit just yet but I do think pardew could be doing better. But so could the players be doing better as it's as much them wining or losing points as it is the manager.

[kpturner]

.....but a Manager who is clearly not good enough. Not just Cortese's opinion.....

Where is the evidence to suggest that Cortese thinks the Manager is not good enough?

[derry]

Regarding Pardew, why don't we just wait and see. If Cortese is happy with the working relationship and the achievements Pardew will stay, on the other hand if the relationship isn't working or the achievements aren't satisfactory as perceived by Cortese Pardew will go.