Philip Green

[bridge too far]

Makes you wonder also how any of the resident lefties can defend the labour government making him SIR Phillip Green in the first place, eh ??

 

Resident lefties rarely defend the last Labour government.

[bridge too far]

This guy is more interesting than I thought! I've just read an article about him by a financial journalist. I don't understand company finance but, reading the article, it seems that not only does he avoid paying tax but that he borrows money from Arcadia to pay dividends to his wife and writes off that loan against any tax the company might be liable for.

 

Apparently (and allegedly) this is against Company Law.

 

http://taxresearch.wordpress.com/2006/06/19/sir-philip-green-the-rewards-of-tax-avoidance/

[Sour Mash]

I doubt a single overseas visitor comes to the UK just to shop at one of Mr Greens stores, most tourists have a budget and spend it, if there were no Top Shop they would spend it elsewhere, the tax revenue would not be affected. Additionally unlike their boss I am sure very few of them have the where with all to avoid (legally) paying income tax.

 

Do you think if one firm didn't exist another would just happen to do the same in its place? If one entrepreneur didn't create his business and employ all these people, a.n.other would? If one store wasn't around to be massively popular with foreign visitors and make loads of money (including taxable revenue), then another would just emerge in its place? Do you actually think that is how it works?

[bridge too far]

Do you think if one firm didn't exist another would just happen to do the same in its place? If one entrepreneur didn't create his business and employ all these people, a.n.other would? If one store wasn't around to be massively popular with foreign visitors and make loads of money (including taxable revenue), then another would just emerge in its place? Do you actually think that is how it works?

 

Well that's what he did. Other entrepreneurs may well pay the taxes they're supposed to, though.

[moonraker]

First of all, I didn't suggest for a minute they just came to London to go to Top Shop. But its businesses such as his that make London a place for people to come and spend their money. I go to meeitngs round the corner from that store a couple of times a month and its always f****g packed! His businesess has developed a massively successful, world renowned brand I've been, that is ahead of and/or competing with its rivals across the world. Doesn't matter if its clothes/cars/banking/property whatever, it is entreprenuerial bussiness that creates wealth for this country and that we all ultimately prosper from. It should be encouraged as much as possible not put on a par with people who never do an honest days work in their lives and ONLY take out of the system.

 

This thread is not about scroungers whom I object to as strongly as anyone else it is about honest hard working people who cannot and do not avoid tax, whereas your hero does. Not all successful businessmen avoid tax, Mr Green does and therefore he deserves to be taken to task especially when he has accepted a Government appointment to advise on how the rest of us should behave. You still have not addressed my point about John Lewis a far more respected and renowned retail chain that has no need of a Mr Green type.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

John Lewis gave away half his business to the workers because he was convinced Communism was going to happen.

[moonraker]

Do you think if one firm didn't exist another would just happen to do the same in its place? If one entrepreneur didn't create his business and employ all these people, a.n.other would? If one store wasn't around to be massively popular with foreign visitors and make loads of money (including taxable revenue), then another would just emerge in its place? Do you actually think that is how it works?

 

In a word Yes, if a gap is created in the market due to the demise of one supplier and there is still demand for the service then it is normally quickly filled by another. The demise of C&A (in the UK) hasn't left a great gap in the market that I have noticed.

[bridge too far]

John Lewis gave away half his business to the workers because he was convinced Communism was going to happen.

 

No he didn't. His employees are partners in the business. Here's the firm's history for your edification, education and delight:

 

http://www.johnlewispartnership.co.uk/Display.aspx?MasterId=22a9dc47-a9bc-4f02-9d00-23e120f885c9&NavigationId=747

 

"John Lewis Spedan Lewis who was the son of the founder John Lewis believed quite simply that it was unfair for either the private owners of a business, or shareholders who invested money in it, to have a greater claim on its prosperity than those who invested their time and labour. The democratic nature and profit sharing basis of the business were continually strengthened and were ultimately secured by two Settlements in trust in 1929 and 1950. These provided for distribution of profits among Partners, established a written constitution for the business and transferred all Spedan Lewis's rights of ownership to trustees. "

Edited 17 August, 2010 by bridge too far

[buctootim]

Do you think if one firm didn't exist another would just happen to do the same in its place? If one entrepreneur didn't create his business and employ all these people, a.n.other would? If one store wasn't around to be massively popular with foreign visitors and make loads of money (including taxable revenue), then another would just emerge in its place? Do you actually think that is how it works?

 

The whole capitalist system is predicated on exactly that! or dont you believe in a market economy?

[moonraker]

John Lewis gave away half his business to the workers because he was convinced Communism was going to happen.

 

Interesting if somewhat inaccurate analysis, there are currently hundreds of EBT's opertaing in the UK and the number is growing all of the time it has nothing to do with the threat of communism it is about an sustainable, equitable and ethical business model that does not reward the few at the expense of the many. This is not communism or socialism or any other left wing handle you wish to use it is about fairness, ask John Lewis employees how they feel about their firm, then ask Top Shop Employees how they feel about Mr Greens firm.

[buctootim]

No he didn't. His employees are partners in the business. Here's the firm's history for your edification, education and delight:

 

http://www.johnlewispartnership.co.uk/Display.aspx?MasterId=22a9dc47-a9bc-4f02-9d00-23e120f885c9&NavigationId=747

 

That link proves Sergei was right (except it was John Spedan Lewis)

 

"The death of John Lewis leaves John Spedan Lewis as owner of both stores. He converts the firm into a public company, John Lewis and Company Limited. First constitution is published. 1929 Creation of the first Trust Settlement: the John Lewis Partnership becomes legal. From now, profits are available for distribution amongst all Partners."

[bridge too far]

That link proves Sergei was right (except it was John Spedan Lewis)

 

"The death of John Lewis leaves John Spedan Lewis as owner of both stores. He converts the firm into a public company, John Lewis and Company Limited. First constitution is published. 1929 Creation of the first Trust Settlement: the John Lewis Partnership becomes legal. From now, profits are available for distribution amongst all Partners."

 

He gave up ownership to a Trust that distributes dividends to the company's employees. That's not the same as giving away half the company because he thought Communism was coming. Where does it say that?

 

I edited my previous post to add a bit and, far from doing out of fear, it would seem he did it out of fairness.

[Sour Mash]

This thread is not about scroungers whom I object to as strongly as anyone else it is about honest hard working people who cannot and do not avoid tax, whereas your hero does. Not all successful businessmen avoid tax, Mr Green does and therefore he deserves to be taken to task especially when he has accepted a Government appointment to advise on how the rest of us should behave. You still have not addressed my point about John Lewis a far more respected and renowned retail chain that has no need of a Mr Green type.

 

This thread has loads of laughable comments comparing those who avoid paying crazy amounts of tax after already putting massive amounts into the economy to benefits scroungers, many saying they are worse than benefit cheats, hence the comment. Fair play, John Lewis has decided to run their businesses a particular way, they have every right to work like that, it sounds great, but that doesn't make what someone like Philip Green does is wrong. He certainly isn't my "hero" comes across as an attention seeking big head from what I've seen in the media, but its the principle of rewarding and encouraging successful, progressive British businesses and entrepreneurs, rather than punishing them is what I am arguing for.

[buctootim]

He gave up ownership to a Trust that distributes dividends to the company's employees. That's not the same as giving away half the company because he thought Communism was coming. Where does it say that?

 

I edited my previous post to add a bit and, far from doing out of fear, it would seem he did it out of fairness.

 

Who said he did it out of fear? Maybe he was a communist? Not sure there much point on a thread about Philip Green evading tax arguing the motivations behind another man's actions 80 years ago.

Edited 17 August, 2010 by buctootim

[bridge too far]

Who said he did it out of fear? Maybe he was a communist?

 

Yep, true.

 

I rather thought Sergei was implying that he did that because he thought Communist was coming to the UK. To me that suggested either fear or beating communism at its own game.

[Sour Mash]

The whole capitalist system is predicated on exactly that! or dont you believe in a market economy?

 

Not on there being an endless supply of firms and entreprenuers being able to do the same thing it isn't?

[buctootim]

the principle of rewarding and encouraging successful, progressive British businesses and entrepreneurs, rather than punishing them is what I am arguing for.

 

And since the majority of British entrepreneurs pay the taxes due, it would be unfair on them to not clamp down on tax evasion and thereby place an even heavier burden on them?

[buctootim]

Not on there being an endless supply of firms and entreprenuers being able to do the same thing it isn't?

 

As you well know you dont need an endless supply. If I needed a polycotton quilt cover tomorrow and BHS was shut im pretty sure Next, M&S, Tescos, Roseberry's etc etc could oblige.

[Fuengirola Saint]

Makes you wonder also how any of the resident lefties can defend the labour government making him SIR Phillip Green in the first place, eh ??

 

I don't know how many times i am going to have to explain this but the Labour government were not left wing, the German Christian Democrats are further to the left than Labour were

[bridge too far]

And since the majority of British entrepreneurs pay the taxes due, it would be unfair on them to not clamp down on tax evasion and thereby place an even heavier burden on them?

 

Indeed and there's a lobby formed by SMEs saying that if these tax avoiders did pay their fair share, there'd be more money in the economy to help develop the SMEs. From little acorns ...............

[moonraker]

Indeed and there's a lobby formed by SMEs saying that if these tax avoiders did pay their fair share, there'd be more money in the economy to help develop the SMEs. From little acorns ...............

 

And this is the rub, SME's employ far more people than the big corporates, they are run by entrepreneurs. They do not benefit from leveraged buy outs and high finance risk taking but they are our best hope as they are more innovative and generally per capita generate more wealth than the corporates. Tax avoidance is driven by greed not wealth creation.

[Thedelldays]

I don't know how many times i am going to have to explain this but the Labour government were not left wing, the German Christian Democrats are further to the left than Labour were

 

well, they are...the are funded by trade unions and have a core left wing support...just because lefties dont like the taste of nu labour..............

[bridge too far]

well, they are...the are funded by trade unions and have a core left wing support...just because lefties dont like the taste of nu labour..............

 

Some Labour MPs are funded by trade unions (in the same way that some Tory MPs are funded by businesses).

 

Some Labour MPs are left wing.

 

The last Labour government was NOT left wing.

[Sour Mash]

And since the majority of British entrepreneurs pay the taxes due, it would be unfair on them to not clamp down on tax evasion and thereby place an even heavier burden on them?

 

Its not tax evasion, but avoidance we're talking about here isn't it? There must be many thousands of businesses and businesses men that employ accountants etc to legally reduce their tax payments, seems like Philip Green's one is a it better than others. Probably all have the same opinion that they've worked very hard and taken loads of risks for what they've earn, why should they have to then give half of it away, a large amount of which will be wasted by our inefficient governments.

[Thedelldays]

Some Labour MPs are funded by trade unions (in the same way that some Tory MPs are funded by businesses).

 

Some Labour MPs are left wing.

 

The last Labour government was NOT left wing.

 

easy for you to say that now...you lefties voted in and championed a bunch of monsters on the whole

[bridge too far]

easy for you to say that now...you lefties voted in and championed a bunch of monsters on the whole

 

I resigned from the Labour Party - mainly because of the Iraq war but also because of things like PFI - introduced by the Tories but continued by Labour. The party was moving away from what I recognised as the Labour Party. So I've been saying that the Labour government was not left wing since 2001.

 

I've voted Labour since for pragmatic reasons only - because the alternative was just too awful to entertain.

[dune]

I resigned from the Labour Party - mainly because of the Iraq war but also because of things like PFI - introduced by the Tories but continued by Labour. The party was moving away from what I recognised as the Labour Party. So I've been saying that the Labour government was not left wing since 2001.

 

I've voted Labour since for pragmatic reasons only - because the alternative was just too awful to entertain.

 

No party could possibly have created more mess than the Socialists have left us with.

[buctootim]

I work for an American based organisation with no UK presence. I could easily pay my wages into a Cayman Islands bank account and evade tax. Alternatively I could do what Green does and set myself up as a limited company with my partner as a co-director, and she take my earnings as company dividends, taxed at 0% by Monaco. Its not difficult, you dont need a smart accountant, its just not right.

Edited 17 August, 2010 by buctootim

[bridge too far]

I work for an American based organisation with no UK presence. I could easily pay my wages into a Cayman Islands bank account and evade tax. Alternatively I could do what Green does and set myself up as a limited company with my partner as a co-director, and she take my earnings as company dividends, taxed at 0% by Monaco. Its not difficult, you dont need a smart accountant, its just not right.

 

I don't know if this still happens here (I think the last government changed the rules a bit). But I do remember, a few years ago, that my boss (and owner of the company) did this. He paid himself peanuts and then he and his wife divided up what was effectively the rest of his salary as dividend.

 

Her contribution to the company? Well she made his lunch for him so I guess that's OK.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

I see the usual thicko's on here are still calling the last Labour government left wing socialists. Bless them, it must be bliss to be so thick and have such a simplistic view on politics.

[Thedelldays]

I see the usual thicko's on here are still calling the last Labour government left wing socialists. Bless them, it must be bliss to be so thick and have such a simplistic view on politics.

 

it was the traditional left wing that rallied round and brought that monster of a party to power....

[Fuengirola Saint]

it was the traditional left wing that rallied round and brought that monster of a party to power....

 

Sorry mush but you don't half talk some ****e

[solentstars]

I work for an American based organisation with no UK presence. I could easily pay my wages into a Cayman Islands bank account and evade tax. Alternatively I could do what Green does and set myself up as a limited company with my partner as a co-director, and she take my earnings as company dividends, taxed at 0% by Monaco. Its not difficult, you dont need a smart accountant, its just not right.

 

i agree just because a smart accountant, can sponge tax of the country legally dos not make it right, or if we make it legal for the spongers who abuse the welfare system would that be justification for them to keep the money.

philip green is being well rewarded without legally taking more money than he will ever need from this country threw his tax avoidance .

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I work for an American based organisation with no UK presence. I could easily pay my wages into a Cayman Islands bank account and evade tax. Alternatively I could do what Green does and set myself up as a limited company with my partner as a co-director, and she take my earnings as company dividends, taxed at 0% by Monaco. Its not difficult, you dont need a smart accountant, its just not right.

 

I find this a little bizarre - go on and do it and spend the money how you want! If you want to invest in good causes then great. If not spend it on booze, fast cars and good living; the taxman will get it in the end anyway and people will be employed to serve you in the bars, sell you your cars and cook for you! The left are so self righteous; nations do not become rich by taxing their people.

[moonraker]

What I find bizarre is that Phillip Green is defended for denying HMRC £300m yet our fishy friends down the road are derided by the self same people for denying HMRC less than a tenth of that.

[solentstars]

What I find bizarre is that Phillip Green is defended for denying HMRC £300m yet our fishy friends down the road are derided by the self same people for denying HMRC less than a tenth of that.

 

ha ha it shows you the logic of their nonsense on tax avoiders .

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

That is spin BTF. He believed commuinism was coming.

No he didn't. His employees are partners in the business. Here's the firm's history for your edification, education and delight:

 

http://www.johnlewispartnership.co.uk/Display.aspx?MasterId=22a9dc47-a9bc-4f02-9d00-23e120f885c9&NavigationId=747

 

"John Lewis Spedan Lewis who was the son of the founder John Lewis believed quite simply that it was unfair for either the private owners of a business, or shareholders who invested money in it, to have a greater claim on its prosperity than those who invested their time and labour. The democratic nature and profit sharing basis of the business were continually strengthened and were ultimately secured by two Settlements in trust in 1929 and 1950. These provided for distribution of profits among Partners, established a written constitution for the business and transferred all Spedan Lewis's rights of ownership to trustees. "

[Sour Mash]

ha ha it shows you the logic of their nonsense on tax avoiders .

 

You think its the same?

[moonraker]

You think its the same?

 

Obviously its they are not technically the same , however they have both avoided paying tax by abusing the system if not actually breaking the law.

[saint1977]

I find this a little bizarre - go on and do it and spend the money how you want! If you want to invest in good causes then great. If not spend it on booze, fast cars and good living; the taxman will get it in the end anyway and people will be employed to serve you in the bars, sell you your cars and cook for you! The left are so self righteous; nations do not become rich by taxing their people.

 

It's not the just left, and I am a capitalist, that end up angry reading nonsense like this. People like the rest of us that pay our taxes so that the schools can educate our children, people can recieve decent universal health care and community groups that do a lot of their work unpaid can recieve at least some capital investment to progress. I got very angry at some of the waste and cronyism of Blair/Brown and would never vote Labour but I do want a decent society where enterprise and educated risk (not City of London gambling with "Sub-Prime") is rightly rewarded but where future generations also have those opportunities. This is what drives people that I admire such as Sir Richard Branson. Branson is 1000000 times a better businessman and human being than Green, not least because he shows you can accumulate large amounts of wealth - which is fine with me - and still make your proper contribution to society and yes, for the clarification of the Thatcherites on this forum society does exist. Stop living in the 1980s, One Nation policies are the future. Green is as bad as the tax-dodging Blue Few down the road.

[Sour Mash]

It's not the just left, and I am a capitalist, that end up angry reading nonsense like this. People like the rest of us that pay our taxes so that the schools can educate our children, people can recieve decent universal health care and community groups that do a lot of their work unpaid can recieve at least some capital investment to progress. I got very angry at some of the waste and cronyism of Blair/Brown and would never vote Labour but I do want a decent society where enterprise and educated risk (not City of London gambling with "Sub-Prime") is rightly rewarded but where future generations also have those opportunities. This is what drives people that I admire such as Sir Richard Branson. Branson is 1000000 times a better businessman and human being than Green, not least because he shows you can accumulate large amounts of wealth - which is fine with me - and still make your proper contribution to society and yes, for the clarification of the Thatcherites on this forum society does exist. Stop living in the 1980s, One Nation policies are the future. Green is as bad as the tax-dodging Blue Few down the road.

 

No, what Green does isn't the same as what the Skates have done. He pays far more into society than any of us ever will and probably takes less out.

[solentstars]

It's not the just left, and I am a capitalist, that end up angry reading nonsense like this. People like the rest of us that pay our taxes so that the schools can educate our children, people can recieve decent universal health care and community groups that do a lot of their work unpaid can recieve at least some capital investment to progress. I got very angry at some of the waste and cronyism of Blair/Brown and would never vote Labour but I do want a decent society where enterprise and educated risk (not City of London gambling with "Sub-Prime") is rightly rewarded but where future generations also have those opportunities. This is what drives people that I admire such as Sir Richard Branson. Branson is 1000000 times a better businessman and human being than Green, not least because he shows you can accumulate large amounts of wealth - which is fine with me - and still make your proper contribution to society and yes, for the clarification of the Thatcherites on this forum society does exist. Stop living in the 1980s, One Nation policies are the future. Green is as bad as the tax-dodging Blue Few down the road.

good post i still cannot believe that their are still people who believe all that 80,s nonsense and the worship of money at all costs shows a lack of morality.

[saint1977]

No, what Green does isn't the same as what the Skates have done. He pays far more into society than any of us ever will and probably takes less out.

 

I don't mena to pick an argument but how is that the case? The skates were still paying SOME of their VAT and PAYE but other clubs in financial trouble, including SFC, still paid all of their taxes. I'm disappointed with Cameron's advisers, I support many of the changes the Coalition are making, but someone should have told him that Green would be a tacky and unwise move, particularly when you consider the trouble that Ashcroft and Goldsmith have caused the party. Look at the example of Richard Harpin - David Cameron should be - of a highly successful entrepreneur who has probably paid more into society than Green yet he still wants to put more back in and has just set up an entrepreneurship charity as well. I'm sure he takes difficult decisions like any other top business person but that's neccessary. It isn't neccessary to cheat the public revenue. David Cameron should be wooing this sort of person and setting a good example.

[Fuengirola Saint]

Another point about Mr Green, how can a man who spends £5million on his 50th birthday party lecture the rest of the country on waste and efficiency?

[redkeith]

It does make me laugh to see how people are lauded simply because they have made lots of money. There are questions that have been raised about Greens business methods, as well as the small issue of his wife being paid millions just to sun herself , tax free, in Monaco.

 

There have been many such figures over the years, and many, such as the Enron bosses, Makel, De Lorien and even Mr Merdle in Dickens 'Little Dorrit'. And then lets not forget Sir Freddie Goodwin.

 

I am sure that there are better qualified re-organisers out there, some of whom may even pay income tax.

[Sour Mash]

Another point about Mr Green, how can a man who spends £5million on his 50th birthday party lecture the rest of the country on waste and efficiency?

 

All depends what he got for that £5million.

[Sour Mash]

I don't mena to pick an argument but how is that the case? The skates were still paying SOME of their VAT and PAYE but other clubs in financial trouble, including SFC, still paid all of their taxes. I'm disappointed with Cameron's advisers, I support many of the changes the Coalition are making, but someone should have told him that Green would be a tacky and unwise move, particularly when you consider the trouble that Ashcroft and Goldsmith have caused the party. Look at the example of Richard Harpin - David Cameron should be - of a highly successful entrepreneur who has probably paid more into society than Green yet he still wants to put more back in and has just set up an entrepreneurship charity as well. I'm sure he takes difficult decisions like any other top business person but that's neccessary. It isn't neccessary to cheat the public revenue. David Cameron should be wooing this sort of person and setting a good example.

 

If you can't see the difference between the Skates and Green, then I give up. Loads of businessmen, both big and small use lots of different ways to minimise the tax they pay, very few don't try and (legally) play the system in some way.

[moonraker]

If you can't see the difference between the Skates and Green, then I give up. Loads of businessmen, both big and small use lots of different ways to minimise the tax they pay, very few don't try and (legally) play the system in some way.

 

I don't know how you define a businessman but it appears to be some one who is in a position to minimise their tax liability, as the vast majority of us are on PAYE we have no opportunity to take advantage of tax minimisation rules. In fact when MPs, mostly acting within the law (though i agree not morally correct) used flipping to avoid capital gains tax did you approve. It seems you are promoting a one rule for businessmen (whatever they are) and one for the rest of us. And there was me thinking we wanted a fair and just society, you obviously just want a society where those who can get away with it should be applauded unless they are a small club in south east Hampshire. Defending the indefensible is a life long long task, hope you are up for it.