Philip Green

[Johnny Bognor]

Hi Fuengirola,

I get your point, but just to bring some balance to the debate, do you know the income tax contributions of any of the following people to their respective countries?

 

Fidel Castro

Hugo Chavez

Che Guevara

Hồ Chí Minh

Kim Jong-il

Vladimir Lenin

Karl Marx

Pol Pot

Vladimir Putin

Viktor Sayenko

Josif Stalin

 

 

Just interested, that's all

[Fuengirola Saint]

Hi Fuengirola,

I get your point, but just to bring some balance to the debate, do you know the income tax contributions of any of the following people to their respective countries?

 

Fidel Castro

Hugo Chavez

Che Guevara

Hồ Chí Minh

Kim Jong-il

Vladimir Lenin

Karl Marx

Pol Pot

Vladimir Putin

Viktor Sayenko

Josif Stalin

 

 

Just interested, that's all

 

You're being silly now aren't you ;-)

[Johnny Bognor]

You're being silly now aren't you ;-)

 

Not really, I just guess that a capitalist paying some tax is better than a communist paying no tax.

 

As it happens, I do believe that someone who is influencing a government should be seen as paying their fair share.

 

Gordon Brown has previously claimed it is ‘a scandal’ that there is not greater transparency on the tax status of party backers. But latest figures show that since 2001, Labour have taken over £10 million from eight reportedly ‘non-dom’ donors

 

 

As you know, being the balanced one on the forum, I just like to see fairness in all corners.

[angelman]

As I seem to pay more and more tax, I do get ****ed off with these spongers who like to live in this country while having non-dom status. His companies may pay tax, but income tax is something that he doesn't do.

[bridge too far]

everyones at it...just like I have no opinion on blair making millions from his time in public office and having to foot the bill for the security of his book signings

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10988478

[OldNick]

there is no excuse in my book. Green has made his billions by using our workforce and custom.It is only down to clever accountants that he has avoided taxes that the rest of the population can't. If he didn't trade here there are others that would fill his boots.

[saint1977]

there is no excuse in my book. Green has made his billions by using our workforce and custom.It is only down to clever accountants that he has avoided taxes that the rest of the population can't. If he didn't trade here there are others that would fill his boots.

 

I totally agree Nick, there are so many better and responsible business figures that Cameron could have picked. It was bad enough seeing the scum that Tony Blair (and Brown - Fred the Shred for example) surrounded himself with without the new Government at it as well. I don't respect anything that the likes of Green or Lord Ashcroft say until they contribute properly to the staff that have made them wealthy.

 

Oh, and I'm sorry Tony Blair but your grubby £4m won't bring our servicemen back! Don't blame the British Legion for accepting as like any charity they have been battered by our moron investment bankers but doesn't get Blair off of the hook for me.

[OldNick]

I totally agree Nick, there are so many better and responsible business figures that Cameron could have picked. It was bad enough seeing the scum that Tony Blair (and Brown - Fred the Shred for example) surrounded himself with without the new Government at it as well. I don't respect anything that the likes of Green or Lord Ashcroft say until they contribute properly to the staff that have made them wealthy.

 

Oh, and I'm sorry Tony Blair but your grubby £4m won't bring our servicemen back! Don't blame the British Legion for accepting as like any charity they have been battered by our moron investment bankers but doesn't get Blair off of the hook for me.

Iam a capitalist but there is a limit to greed and his actions IMO are across the line. I see no fault in trying to do best for yourself family and friends but to dodge paying into society to that extent is immoral

[moonraker]

There is no justification for Greens position. The irony is that those who seem to support him are the self same people who have issues with immigration and scroungers, taking money out of the state, exactly what Green is doing only at a level incomprehensible to most of us. Not a single rich person has made their monety in isolation, all of it has been made through OBE's (Other B**gers Efforts) , I admire and support many entrepreneurs and wealth creators and in general believe in a market economy however Green wants his cake and eat it. It is greed no matter which way you look at it. I like this solution http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/15/deficit-crisis-tax-the-rich.

[OldNick]

well that would make an instant housing market crash that has not been seen before. I am all for higher taxes as long as it is for everyone else but not me.

[solentstars]

There is no justification for Greens position. The irony is that those who seem to support him are the self same people who have issues with immigration and scroungers, taking money out of the state, exactly what Green is doing only at a level incomprehensible to most of us. Not a single rich person has made their monety in isolation, all of it has been made through OBE's (Other B**gers Efforts) , I admire and support many entrepreneurs and wealth creators and in general believe in a market economy however Green wants his cake and eat it. It is greed no matter which way you look at it. I like this solution http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/1nd 5/deficit-crisis-tax-the-rich.

i think you are spot on with your comments and its sad they don,t realise these people are on the same level has the spongers who abuse the welfare state.

[bridge too far]

This puts things into perspective:

 

http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-adviser/tax-evasion-costs-treasury-15-times-more-than-benefit-fraud/a378274

 

and even the Daily Heil can see the problem:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1162148/Barclays-makes-1bn-year-tax-avoidance-schemes.html

Edited 17 August, 2010 by bridge too far

[Sour Mash]

There is no justification for Greens position. The irony is that those who seem to support him are the self same people who have issues with immigration and scroungers, taking money out of the state, exactly what Green is doing only at a level incomprehensible to most of us. Not a single rich person has made their monety in isolation, all of it has been made through OBE's (Other B**gers Efforts) , I admire and support many entrepreneurs and wealth creators and in general believe in a market economy however Green wants his cake and eat it. It is greed no matter which way you look at it. I like this solution http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/15/deficit-crisis-tax-the-rich.

 

You're completely wrong I'm afraid. Green puts far more in than he "takes out" (what does he actually take out?), he creates massive amounts of wealth jobs and more revenue for the governement than probably this all the posters on this forum put together. Oh, I'm sure he had it all gifter to him on a plate? Or was just lucky? You don't become that sort of successful businessman without s**t loads of hard work, risk taking and b***s, yet so many in this country would love to take away any incentives for being a wealth cretor, far better to reward people for sitting around on their @rse all day hey?

[bridge too far]

You're completely wrong I'm afraid. Green puts far more in than he "takes out" (what does he actually take out?), he creates massive amounts of wealth jobs and more revenue for the governement than probably this all the posters on this forum put together. Oh, I'm sure he had it all gifter to him on a plate? Or was just lucky? You don't become that sort of successful businessman without s**t loads of hard work, risk taking and b***s, yet so many in this country would love to take away any incentives for being a wealth cretor, far better to reward people for sitting around on their @rse all day hey?

 

I'm sure lots of people would say they put in more than they take out. Hey I know! Let's have one rule for the rich and one for the poor.

[Sour Mash]

I'm sure lots of people would say they put in more than they take out. Hey I know! Let's have one rule for the rich and one for the poor.[/QUOTE]

 

What you mean something like the "rich" paying FAR more into the system than the "poor" do and taking FAR less out.......?

[moonraker]

You're completely wrong I'm afraid. Green puts far more in than he "takes out" (what does he actually take out?), he creates massive amounts of wealth jobs and more revenue for the governement than probably this all the posters on this forum put together. Oh, I'm sure he had it all gifter to him on a plate? Or was just lucky? You don't become that sort of successful businessman without s**t loads of hard work, risk taking and b***s, yet so many in this country would love to take away any incentives for being a wealth cretor, far better to reward people for sitting around on their @rse all day hey?

 

Well if the great Mr Green has accrued all of his wealth solely by the sweat of his own brow then I agree. I also agree that entrepreneurs need to be incentivsed, our point of divergence is how much incentivisation is appropriate, he has avoided £300m in tax that means he has been rewarded to the tune of £750m (from just one part of his business interests). The truth is he has accrued his wealth through good business acumen risk taking and most importantly the labour of thousands of individuals. His vast majority of direct employees earn well below the UK average wage and I hate to imaging how little the people who manufacture his products earn. There are many well documented cases of retailers exploiting the third world whether any of these is directly linked to Mr Green I cannot comment but the fact is many very wealthy people are exploitative and it adds insult to injury when they avoid paying tax.

[bridge too far]

Good post, Moonraker. Look at this- it illustrates your point very well:

 

Topshop owner Green's £1.2 billion dividend was enough to double the salaries of Cambodian's whole garment workforce for eight years.

A worker making clothes for Green's Arcadia group in Mauritius would need to toil for almost 4,000 years to gain the £3 million model Kate Moss earned for her Topshop clothing range

 

from: http://www.waronwant.org/component/content/article/14928

[Sour Mash]

Well if the great Mr Green has accrued all of his wealth solely by the sweat of his own brow then I agree. I also agree that entrepreneurs need to be incentivsed, our point of divergence is how much incentivisation is appropriate, he has avoided £300m in tax that means he has been rewarded to the tune of £750m (from just one part of his business interests). The truth is he has accrued his wealth through good business acumen risk taking and most importantly the labour of thousands of individuals. His vast majority of direct employees earn well below the UK average wage and I hate to imaging how little the people who manufacture his products earn. There are many well documented cases of retailers exploiting the third world whether any of these is directly linked to Mr Green I cannot comment but the fact is many very wealthy people are exploitative and it adds insult to injury when they avoid paying tax.

 

Of course employees shouldn't be mistreated to make their owners profits, but that isn't what Green is being accused of or what we are discussing people here. Those people are in work because of entrepreneurs such as Green. He already pays far more than any of us do in tax, while taking much less out of the system. Why you should individual be punished for being a hard working, entrepreneurial, successful, job and wealth creator?

[bridge too far]

He's not being 'punished'. He is (or is not, depending on your PoV) doing what is required of every UK resident, including PFC.

[solentstars]

Of course employees shouldn't be mistreated to make their owners profits, but that isn't what Green is being accused of or what we are discussing people here. Those people are in work because of entrepreneurs such as Green. He already pays far more than any of us do in tax, while taking much less out of the system. Why you should individual be punished for being a hard working, entrepreneurial, successful, job and wealth creator?

 

what a load of tosh green is no henry ford is he, and he not being punished by anyone and would still have a fantastic lifestyle he is a greedy tax avoider and on the same level has those who fiddle the benefit systems .

Edited 17 August, 2010 by solentstars

[moonraker]

Of course employees shouldn't be mistreated to make their owners profits, but that isn't what Green is being accused of or what we are discussing people here. Those people are in work because of entrepreneurs such as Green. He already pays far more than any of us do in tax, while taking much less out of the system. Why you should individual be punished for being a hard working, entrepreneurial, successful, job and wealth creator?

 

No one is suggesting punishing him; just that he, as one benefiting from the UK's business friendly environment, pays taxes the same as the rest of us. You seem to confuse the amount paid with the ability to pay a long enshrined principle that even most Tories grudgingly accept. The converse to your argument about people being in work because of him is that without them he would not have a business. Do you not see it is a symbiotic relationship, whilst advantageous to both it clearly rewards one side to a far greater degree than the other to add insult to injury he actively reduces paying his dues to the society that provides support to those self same workers when he has finished with them meaning others have to make up the shortfall e.g. Those who met all of their UK tax liabilities.

[Sour Mash]

He's not being 'punished'. He is (or is not, depending on your PoV) doing what is required of every UK resident, including PFC.

 

I don't see it too far off being "punished", but if you don't want to call it that, I'd certainly use the phrase "strongly disincentivised".

[Sour Mash]

No one is suggesting punishing him; just that he, as one benefiting from the UK's business friendly environment, pays taxes the same as the rest of us. You seem to confuse the amount paid with the ability to pay a long enshrined principle that even most Tories grudgingly accept. The converse to your argument about people being in work because of him is that without them he would not have a business. Do you not see it is a symbiotic relationship, whilst advantageous to both it clearly rewards one side to a far greater degree than the other to add insult to injury he actively reduces paying his dues to the society that provides support to those self same workers when he has finished with them meaning others have to make up the shortfall e.g. Those who met all of their UK tax liabilities.

 

Maybe so, but much easier to find a few more thousand office/shop or factory workers than it is to find an another multi-billion £ empire building entrepreneur.

[moonraker]

Maybe so, but much easier to find a few more thousand office/shop or factory workers than it is to find an another multi-billion £ empire building entrepreneur.

 

I dont know what industry you work in but finding and recruiting good staff is not easy. Your dismissal of the vast majority of your fellow citizens as merely office/shop or factory workers is worryingly medieval in its simplicity and only supports my view that a signifcnat number (by no means all) of wealthy people are exploitative. Bet he wont do what Mr John Lewis did and turn his business into an EBT a recognition of the fact that it was the joint efforts of his business acumen and the staffs labour that created the bsuiness.

[Sour Mash]

I dont know what industry you work in but finding and recruiting good staff is not easy. Your dismissal of the vast majority of your fellow citizens as merely office/shop or factory workers is worryingly medieval in its simplicity and only supports my view that a signifcnat number (by no means all) of wealthy people are exploitative. Bet he wont do what Mr John Lewis did and turn his business into an EBT a recognition of the fact that it was the joint efforts of his business acumen and the staffs labour that created the bsuiness.

 

I haven't "dismissed" anyone. Read what I've actually written. Just stating a simple fact I'm afraid.

[Sour Mash]

what a load of tosh green is no henry ford is he, and he not being punished by anyone and would still have a fantastic lifestyle he is a greedy tax avoider and on the same level has those who fiddle the benefit systems .

 

No he's not and you know it.

[bridge too far]

No he's not and you know it.

 

In fact it's much, much worse:

 

http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-adviser/tax-evasion-costs-treasury-15-times-more-than-benefit-fraud/a378274

[moonraker]

I haven't "dismissed" anyone. Read what I've actually written. Just stating a simple fact I'm afraid.

 

Apologie for misinterpreting your comment but its not a fact, recruiting the right people is difficult.

[Sour Mash]

In fact it's much, much worse:

 

http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-adviser/tax-evasion-costs-treasury-15-times-more-than-benefit-fraud/a378274

 

So Philip Green has been convicted of fraud/tax evasion? Must have missed the news that night. If you believe that what he is doing is at the same moral level as fiddling the benefits system, I fear for your sanity.

[Sour Mash]

Apologie for misinterpreting your comment but its not a fact, recruiting the right people is difficult.

 

I agree.

[bridge too far]

So Philip Green has been convicted of fraud/tax evasion? Must have missed the news that night. If you believe that what he is doing is at the same moral level as fiddling the benefits system, I fear for your sanity.

 

I don't think I've accused him of fraud and nor did the link. Excerpt: "Tax evasion is around 3% of total tax liabilities, while benefit fraud accounts for 0.8% of total benefit expenditure"

 

I do think what he is doing is as immoral as fiddling the benefits system, actually.

 

If he and his ilk paid what they should then maybe some of the swingeing cuts in public services to come could be avoided.

[buctootim]

You're completely wrong I'm afraid. Green puts far more in than he "takes out" (what does he actually take out?), he creates massive amounts of wealth jobs and more revenue for the governement than probably this all the posters on this forum put together.

 

But Green doesnt really create any wealth at all. All he does is import cheap goods from china and retail them in the UK. Nothing wrong with that per se, but it doesnt actually generate wealth for the UK in the way that foreign exchange earners do. If Arcadia closed down tomorrow the gap would be filled over almost immediately by other retailers.

[solentstars]

I don't think I've accused him of fraud and nor did the link. Excerpt: "Tax evasion is around 3% of total tax liabilities, while benefit fraud accounts for 0.8% of total benefit expenditure"

 

I do think what he is doing is as immoral as fiddling the benefits system, actually.

 

If he and his ilk paid what they should then maybe some of the swingeing cuts in public services to come could be avoided.

 

i think the worlds gone mad when spongers fiddle the dole we are all angry and when tax avoiders do the same thing we are suppose to look up to them.

[Jones91]

LOL benefit frauds are much worse, the amount of money is irrelevant.

 

Benefit fraud - someone who gets given money for nothing

 

Tax dodger - someone who avoids giving money away that they have worked for.

[buctootim]

Tax dodger - someone who avoids giving money away that they have worked for.

 

Nah. Tax dodger - someone who gets given services they havent paid for. Both benefit cheats and and tax evaders are parasites on the rest of society.

[OldNick]

LOL benefit frauds are much worse, the amount of money is irrelevant.

 

Benefit fraud - someone who gets given money for nothing

 

Tax dodger - someone who avoids giving money away that they have worked for.

also what Green does is not illegal wheras benefit cheats is.

I believe Green should pay his tax as he has made his fortune form the nation

[bridge too far]

LOL benefit frauds are much worse, the amount of money is irrelevant.

 

Benefit fraud - someone who gets given money for nothing

 

Tax dodger - someone who avoids giving money away that they have worked for.

 

Like Portsmouth Football Club you mean? Would you admire me if I avoided paying tax too? If we all did - because, after all, we've worked for that money?

 

How the hell would you fund any public service (army, police, fire service) if everyone took that attitude.

 

Which is kind of the point.

[Jones91]

so it would be better if everyone claimed benefits and didnt work...

[buctootim]

so it would be better if everyone claimed benefits and didnt work...

 

so it would be better if everyone worked and evaded paying tax?

[Jones91]

Correct

 

We'd just have to learn to all agree and work together as there would be no central control.

[bridge too far]

so it would be better if everyone claimed benefits and didnt work...

 

 

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

HTH

[buctootim]

Correct

 

We'd just have to learn to all agree and work together as there would be no central control.

 

Thanks. Thats clear now. Good luck in that society if you or your family get hit by a truck, develop a long term illness or have a disabled child. You should go and have a look at Haiti, a society where revenue collection has broken down.

[Sour Mash]

But Green doesnt really create any wealth at all. All he does is import cheap goods from china and retail them in the UK. Nothing wrong with that per se, but it doesnt actually generate wealth for the UK in the way that foreign exchange earners do. If Arcadia closed down tomorrow the gap would be filled over almost immediately by other retailers.

 

Absolute rubbish. "If Arcadia closed down tomorrow the gap would be filled over almost immediately by other retailers" As with any business, it is no-where near as simple as that. I'd love to know, for example, how much money is spent by foreign visitors in the Top Shop store at Oxford Street? How much VAT is paid on that? How many people are employed by his companies? How much income tax each of them pay into the system? How much tax he must pay every time he dines at a 5* restaurant or buys a new car and the people that all that expenditure goes on to employ and the income tax they then go on to pay etc? You think its as easy as saying if he wasn't doing it someone else would? Look how many failed, rubbish clothes retailers have fallen by the wayside. If it was that easy we'd all be doing it (or a lot more people would.) This country receives far more income because of people like Philip Green, we would all be worse off without their contribution.

[buctootim]

Absolute rubbish. "If Arcadia closed down tomorrow the gap would be filled over almost immediately by other retailers" As with any business, it is no-where near as simple as that. I'd love to know, for example, how much money is spent by foreign visitors in the Top Shop store at Oxford Street? How much VAT is paid on that? How many people are employed by his companies? How much income tax each of them pay into the system? How much tax he must pay every time he dines at a 5* restaurant or buys a new car and the people that all that expenditure goes on to employ and the income tax they then go on to pay etc? You think its as easy as saying if he wasn't doing it someone else would? Look how many failed, rubbish clothes retailers have fallen by the wayside. If it was that easy we'd all be doing it (or a lot more people would.) This country receives far more income because of people like Philip Green, we would all be worse off without their contribution.

 

So you're saying people spend more on retailing because Philip Green is so good at it and if they didnt spend it at Philip Green's stores then that money wouldnt be spent somewhere else? Nice economics.

[Sour Mash]

I don't think I've accused him of fraud and nor did the link. Excerpt: "Tax evasion is around 3% of total tax liabilities, while benefit fraud accounts for 0.8% of total benefit expenditure"

 

QUOTE]

 

I think if you follow the thread, you'll see the comparison you made and that you were completely wrong.

[Sour Mash]

So you're saying people spend more on retailing because Philip Green is so good at it and if they didnt spend it at Philip Green's stores then that money wouldnt be spent somewhere else? Nice economics.

 

No. Go outside somewhere like Top Shop in Oxford Circus for example and see how many foreign visitors are spending their money in our country as an example of the money his business brings in. Money that could easily not be spent full stop or if their was a tired old C&A there or something. Yep, lets reward failure, forget taking risks, employing people, growing businesses, you'll have half of it taken off you to pay for others to sit around doing nothing for the WHOLE of their lives.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

He should be offered a tax incentive to keep make his clothes in the UK.

[moonraker]

Absolute rubbish. "If Arcadia closed down tomorrow the gap would be filled over almost immediately by other retailers" As with any business, it is no-where near as simple as that. I'd love to know, for example, how much money is spent by foreign visitors in the Top Shop store at Oxford Street? How much VAT is paid on that? How many people are employed by his companies? How much income tax each of them pay into the system? How much tax he must pay every time he dines at a 5* restaurant or buys a new car and the people that all that expenditure goes on to employ and the income tax they then go on to pay etc? You think its as easy as saying if he wasn't doing it someone else would? Look how many failed, rubbish clothes retailers have fallen by the wayside. If it was that easy we'd all be doing it (or a lot more people would.) This country receives far more income because of people like Philip Green, we would all be worse off without their contribution.

 

I doubt a single overseas visitor comes to the UK just to shop at one of Mr Greens stores, most tourists have a budget and spend it, if there were no Top Shop they would spend it elsewhere, the tax revenue would not be affected. Additionally unlike their boss I am sure very few of them have the where with all to avoid (legally) paying income tax.

[eurosaint]

I have just heard on LBC that Philip Green avoided 300 million pounds worth of tax last year ( 12 GBP for every man woman and child in Britain ) by routing his income through his wife in Monaco.

I was wondering can any of our resident Tories defend the governments decision to make him efficiency tsar?

Makes you wonder also how any of the resident lefties can defend the labour government making him SIR Phillip Green in the first place, eh ??

[Sour Mash]

I doubt a single overseas visitor comes to the UK just to shop at one of Mr Greens stores, most tourists have a budget and spend it, if there were no Top Shop they would spend it elsewhere, the tax revenue would not be affected. Additionally unlike their boss I am sure very few of them have the where with all to avoid (legally) paying income tax.

 

First of all, I didn't suggest for a minute they just came to London to go to Top Shop. But its businesses such as his that make London a place for people to come and spend their money. I go to meeitngs round the corner from that store a couple of times a month and its always f****g packed! His businesess has developed a massively successful, world renowned brand I've been, that is ahead of and/or competing with its rivals across the world. Doesn't matter if its clothes/cars/banking/property whatever, it is entreprenuerial bussiness that creates wealth for this country and that we all ultimately prosper from. It should be encouraged as much as possible not put on a par with people who never do an honest days work in their lives and ONLY take out of the system.