Transparency

[hypochondriac]

So just who makes the decision about when it's suitable to provide an explanation? You? Me? Or perhaps the CEO of SFC? For the answer, see below....

 

 

 

I can understand your concern and of course like you I may wish for explanations for certain decisions. However, that does not mean that we're entitled to get everything we want. To think that way is somewhat immature I would argue. What we have got in place of Lowe and then administration is a regime that have saved the club AND invested heavily in the club's infrastructure for the future, including replacing a squad going nowhere with a decent side (I could go on about the detail but it's all been said before). In the days of Lowe, we all complained about how he dominated communications - now the news from the club is dominated by the football side of things and that's surely a good thing?

 

So are you suggesting we aren't entitled to know why we have no Ted Bates Trophy this year? Just one decision amongst many. Also, when an article is put on the OS such as the training ground one to much fanfare and used to generate positive PR, does it not make sense to update the situation if it is not completed (or indeed barely started) on time? To just ignore it and pretend it didn't happen is amateurish IMO. The same goes for the fans charter and other things such as the removal of the programme (something which directly affects me as a fan.)

[Minty]

Well, if they do things that we don't like, but think 'that doesn't matter because they won't go and watch another club' then I think that is exploitation. They know we have no alternative, because we won't just change to supporting another club.

 

And Saint Fan CaM, I know we're not entitled, as I said in my very first post, and I don't expect to get everything I want, as I also stated in another post further down. Lowe was one extreme, I am simply (or not simply it seems) trying to say that I feel the club could do a lot better if it explained KEY decisions that affect, or have the potential to affect, a lot of supporters.

[Saint Fan CaM]

And Saint Fan CaM, I know we're not entitled, as I said in my very first post, and I don't expect to get everything I want, as I also stated in another post further down. Lowe was one extreme, I am simply (or not simply it seems) trying to say that I feel the club could do a lot better if it explained KEY decisions that affect, or have the potential to affect, a lot of supporters.

 

OK - fair point Minty. As I said, I don't disagree with the sentiment - I'm just one of those I guess who cares much more about what's happening on the pitch after suffering from the 10 year overdose of Lowe-inspired non-football b*ll*x. And I think the club have improved that side of things.

[hypochondriac]

OK - fair point Minty. As I said, I don't disagree with the sentiment - I'm just one of those I guess who cares much more about what's happening on the pitch after suffering from the 10 year overdose of Lowe-inspired non-football b*ll*x. And I think the club have improved that side of things.

 

I think it is possible to care about both.

[Weston Super Saint]

Well, if they do things that we don't like, but think 'that doesn't matter because they won't go and watch another club' then I think that is exploitation. They know we have no alternative, because we won't just change to supporting another club.

 

And Saint Fan CaM, I know we're not entitled, as I said in my very first post, and I don't expect to get everything I want, as I also stated in another post further down. Lowe was one extreme, I am simply (or not simply it seems) trying to say that I feel the club could do a lot better if it explained KEY decisions that affect, or have the potential to affect, a lot of supporters.

 

You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.....

 

What may annoy some fans - no payment plan - may not bother other fans in the slightest. Therefore a KEY decision for one set of fans, could be completely irrelevant decision for others.

 

Where do you draw the line on the 'key' decisions, and who gets to decide if they're key or not?

 

And Hypo, stop moaning about everything on a bloody messageboard! Try emailing the club to get some of the answers you 'demand' and see if they reply.... I can only imagine that the players are happy with the current training facilities, as I don't recall seeing any of them complaining about them, and surely that is the ONLY thing that matters isn't it???

[alpine_saint]

Well, if they do things that we don't like, but think 'that doesn't matter because they won't go and watch another club' then I think that is exploitation. They know we have no alternative, because we won't just change to supporting another club.

 

No-one is forced to go and watch Saints. You have a choice. Its only exploitation if you have no choice.

[hypochondriac]

You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.....

 

What may annoy some fans - no payment plan - may not bother other fans in the slightest. Therefore a KEY decision for one set of fans, could be completely irrelevant decision for others.

 

Where do you draw the line on the 'key' decisions, and who gets to decide if they're key or not?

 

And Hypo, stop moaning about everything on a bloody messageboard! Try emailing the club to get some of the answers you 'demand' and see if they reply.... I can only imagine that the players are happy with the current training facilities, as I don't recall seeing any of them complaining about them, and surely that is the ONLY thing that matters isn't it???

 

I got no reply from the club when I emailled them apart from "we will get back to you." They never did. I am waiting for the fans forum to be confirmed and I will go along armed with my questions to obtain an answer. We shall see how successful I am.

[Brussels Saint]

Heres a point which may be valid to this thread. For those of us who are signed up to Saints Player there was an interview with a guy called David Bick (or something like that), who works for a company that advises clubs on PR and communicating with the fans. This guy works for a company that also works for several PL clubs and now advises us. Maybe the approach is coming from him rather than Cortese exactly. Maybe we are just replicating what happens in the prem?

[Minty]

What may annoy some fans - no payment plan - may not bother other fans in the slightest. Therefore a KEY decision for one set of fans, could be completely irrelevant decision for others.

 

Where do you draw the line on the 'key' decisions, and who gets to decide if they're key or not?

 

Fari point, and I don't honestly know. But any organisation worth it's salt, should have its ear to the ground and know if a decision is going to potentially affect a lot of fans. The default position of saying nothing is not helpful IMO.

[stmusicdude]

Yea a poor post badly worded & spelt by me, BUT I still managed to read Minty's post & get it

 

you didnt it at all!!

 

The point is how can someone who isn't effected by ANY of these new choices & decissions knock those that are for talking about it ... it's THAT simple

end of argument!

[Minty]

No-one is forced to go and watch Saints. You have a choice. Its only exploitation if you have no choice.

 

Alpine, I feel you're being slightly mischievous here. I'm sure you understand my point. As football fans, we support one club, and it is generally accepted that we don't have a choice in that regard. Therefore, the custodians of our club know that for many fans, choosing not to go to games would be a last resort, and therefore possibly feel they can get away with a lot more than they might otherwise in any other business because of that blind loyalty.

 

Anyway we're getting off the original point.

[SaintBobby]

There seems a lot of talking at cross purposes on this thread.

 

Alpine is right that as a private company, SFC can do what they like, as long as it's legal. In a totally extreme case, Markus could price season tickets at £1m each and just sit and watch the games at SMS himself. If you can't or won't pay the £1m, well that's too bad.

 

But Minty seems to be talking about best practice and that's a different thing all together. His original post argues that transparency is a wise way to behave. Not a legal obligation. Not something that fans can demand in court. Just a sensible way to behave.

 

I think Minty's right. There aren't too many mass market businesses (and football is definitively a mass market business) where the "If you don't like, don't f***ing buy it" approach is a successful one. The business owners can pursue such a strategy if they like, but theya re probably foolish to do so.

 

There will be some areas where transparency may not be possible. Staff departures are often covered by confidentiality agreements, for example. Or suppose a fan's payment for a season ticket had to be returned because his bank account was being investigated by the authorities for suspected money laundering (Note: I am in absolutely NO WAY suggesting this is what happened with regard to Nick Illingsworth, the example is just hypothetical).

 

By and large though, explaining your decisions in a transparent way is a good thing, even if at the time it can be slightly awkward. Let's assume (and it's only an assumption), that the installment payment plan was cancelled because a measurable proportion of people cancelled their payments, but were still in possession of a physical season ticket and could access the ground for home games (given there tend to be 10,000+ empty seats, you could easily sit in an empty seat). You might make a business decision that the cost of policing this is too high to justify continuing with the arrangements. And it's a difficult thing to be transparent about, because you would basically be accusing people (your own fans, indeed) of fraud, with fairly limited proof. Nevertheless, you are better off explaining things transparently and carefully rather than just saying there's a problem for "administrative reasons" or some such like.

 

The upside of transparency is that - in football - your fanbase start to act as keen advocates, contribute to encouraging more people (friends, family etc) to attend games, buying more of the club's products and participating in more of its activities. These are nebulous upsides, but that doesn't mean they don't count. In fact, they can be very substantial.

Edited 9 August, 2010 by SaintBobby

[Minty]

An excellent summary of my meaning SaintBobby, thank you.

[david in sweden]

Minty that is exactly what I have been trying to say for weeks. The lack of explanation is the most worrying part. I am sure that we were promised greater transparency around the time of the takeover. Does anyone have a link to any quote? Might be useful for the fans forum.

 

.and this is precisely what I have written about , off and on during the last year.

The " inside business " culture varies so much from country to country that it is impossible to explain , or indeed understand why ..certain people act as they do. During the last 15 years I have been involved in coaching business people from many Euro-lands and they vary immensely..just look at some of the decisions coming out of the EU. !

 

Nicola Cortese former Italian Bank director HAD responsibilities to (a) his clients and (b) his employers. In fulfilling those two criteria he does not need to explain himself to anyone else. He's done his job. I do not know what his attitude is to AP but he is de facto acting for the owner and they both want results. Decisions have been made..and will continue to be made that will please and /or upset some of the fan base, but if he believes that this is in the interests of the club.

As has been seen he does not rush out to give explanations /excuses three times a week to every stray 'journo looking for a space-filler on the sport page. He gets on with the job - his way.

 

Now you will all say, its poor PR ..and you maybe right, but he knows that a winning side will put ticket sales up and create income ..what's he done wrong?. Apparantly enough to upset some of our regular contributors who come on with a fresh complaint each week. It's the Italian system.

 

Putting it another way ...does you're boss at work come and explain why he decides to do this-or-that every week..most likely not ..so there's not so much difference really, but don't expect NC to suddenly be open to every press man wanting an interview, or take revenge on the local rag for unfair criticism. We may all be in Europe.... but that's about it !

I've lived in Sweden 25 years and I still don't understand the " logic" of some dum* decisions taken here.

Edited 9 August, 2010 by david in sweden

[up and away]

An excellent summary of my meaning SaintBobby, thank you.

 

You are one of the few posters on here who's view I find balanced and with more common sense than the contents of most other sites. I am not saying you are wrong here and would like Cortese to take on board your point of view, but in the grand scheme of life, things can get a bit out of kilter here.

 

To me this comes down to one simple pov, do you think Cortese is doing the best for the club? If yes, you can just accept what is going on and let him get on with it. Not really any alternative unless you believe there is some Machiavellian plot behind Liebherrs purchase, even then what can you do?

 

Cortese has in the past given a couple of interviews a season and I don't think this season will be any different. At some time soon I expect another Solent interview going all over the points that have been raised over the past few months.

 

You only have to look at the position unfolding at Aston Villa to get a good perspective of what is important at the end of the day. I only have to look back at Lowe's last year at Saints, who had to make many hard decisions for the good of the club and no matter how well they were explained, the reponse was not met with any form of logic. The fact every player on a decent wage had to go, or that we could not afford any player insisting upon their playing bonuses was completely over looked, meeting responses of Lowe was picking the team!

 

Cortese is by no means perfect, but I fully expect a Solent interview along sometime soon to address the issues. I have been impressed with Cortese over the big issues, especially Pardew. He never let his own feelings or ego get in the way of keeping Pardew on for this season, something misinterpreted by many even now and taking into account how ****ed off Cortese was with Pardew. Pardew has the funds otherwise he would not be here, it would be sheer stupidity to not give the man the tools to finish the job. I am not certain how Pardew will turn out, but based upon all the evidence we saw last year, I feel it is right for the present.

[sadoldgit]

Maybe NC :

 

- was put off the transparency approach by the fan base being fronted by the likes of Illingsworth

- has become a little dictatorial in backroom staff dealings (if really is the case) because of too much familiarity and lack of professionality

- has become very strict about staff leaks because of all the sh*t-stirring ITK hangers-on

 

As long as he gets the results on the pitch, I dont care. And as long as he does something about it if those results are not forthcoming, I dont care.

 

SFC is no longer a public limited company listed in the City, FFS. It doesnt have to answer to ANYONE. Do you tell Steve Jobs how to design iPods, FFS ?

 

Yet you have been kicking off for weeks about the lack of transfer activity and I got the impression that you would rather like answers as to why that was???

[sadoldgit]

Having had one infamous previous CEO with no idea/little regard for PR, it seems we have found another. Mr Cortese is well within his rights to do what he wants with the club, but you do get the feeling that he ought to run these things past a Max Clifford (or someone like him) before launching another round into the collective club's foot.

[alpine_saint]

Yet you have been kicking off for weeks about the lack of transfer activity and I got the impression that you would rather like answers as to why that was???

 

Nope, I dont care what the reason is. I just want something done in the transfer market.

[SaintBobby]

Nope, I dont care what the reason is. I just want something done in the transfer market.

 

Fair enough.

 

So do I.

 

So do we all.

 

But isn't the logic of your case that this is entirely a matter for the owners? Not for us?

[alpine_saint]

Fair enough.

 

So do I.

 

So do we all.

 

But isn't the logic of your case that this is entirely a matter for the owners? Not for us?

 

Ultimately, if they do nothing, they have to live with the consequence as much as us - no promotion.

 

They've put a lot of time and money in, it seems daft to stop now, but if that is their wish we have no choice but to deal with it.

[SaintBobby]

You are one of the few posters on here who's view I find balanced and with more common sense than the contents of most other sites. I am not saying you are wrong here and would like Cortese to take on board your point of view, but in the grand scheme of life, things can get a bit out of kilter here.

 

To me this comes down to one simple pov, do you think Cortese is doing the best for the club? If yes, you can just accept what is going on and let him get on with it. Not really any alternative unless you believe there is some Machiavellian plot behind Liebherrs purchase, even then what can you do?

 

Cortese has in the past given a couple of interviews a season and I don't think this season will be any different. At some time soon I expect another Solent interview going all over the points that have been raised over the past few months.

 

You only have to look at the position unfolding at Aston Villa to get a good perspective of what is important at the end of the day. I only have to look back at Lowe's last year at Saints, who had to make many hard decisions for the good of the club and no matter how well they were explained, the reponse was not met with any form of logic. The fact every player on a decent wage had to go, or that we could not afford any player insisting upon their playing bonuses was completely over looked, meeting responses of Lowe was picking the team!

 

Cortese is by no means perfect, but I fully expect a Solent interview along sometime soon to address the issues. I have been impressed with Cortese over the big issues, especially Pardew. He never let his own feelings or ego get in the way of keeping Pardew on for this season, something misinterpreted by many even now and taking into account how ****ed off Cortese was with Pardew. Pardew has the funds otherwise he would not be here, it would be sheer stupidity to not give the man the tools to finish the job. I am not certain how Pardew will turn out, but based upon all the evidence we saw last year, I feel it is right for the present.

 

Interesting post - I highlighted the point about "best for the club" to try and draw something out.

 

I'm sure he is trying his best.

 

I'm totally sure Cortese isn't some lunatic hell bent on destroying the club. Clearly not.

 

The question is simply whether - in some areas - his judgement is bad.

 

Overall, I'd say I'm about 70% happy with his decisions at the moment. Btw, that doesn't mean I won't criticise the 30% I disagree with.

 

It goes to the transparency point, which Minty brought up originally.

 

If your hypothesis about Solent interviews is right - and it may well be - then the club should spell it out. Not in a crisis management sort of way, but in a "fans charter" sort of way.

 

I'd be more than happy with the following sort of approach:

 

"The management team at Southampton Football Club are focused on improving the experience of following Saints for all supporters and, crucially, securing better results on the pitch with a view to climbing up the league ladder in the coming seasons. We appreciate that many fans and supporters care passionately about the club and that there will, of course, be accompanying national and local media interest in the club reflecting this interest. We intend to discharge our duty to fans and to the wider media as well as we possibly can, but feel a need to underline an important proviso. In the grand scheme of things, Southampton Football Club is a relatively small company. We employ 300 staff and operate on a turnover of £15m per annum (NB: both guesses!). We are determined to marshall these resources to contribute to the smooth running of the club and improving our performance and results on the pitch. We believe that involving the senior management of the club in responding to day-to-day stories or concerns could prove to be a misuse of resources, although our Customer Relations Team (or whatever) will work with any fan or supporter who has a specific problem or idea. To this end, although the owner of the club (Markus Liebherr) does not give media interviews, our Executive Chairman (Nicola Cortese) will be available for an extensive interview with Radio Solent three times a year, the Daily Echo two times a year and will attend a Saints Fans Forum in August and April each year. We are delighted that Radio Solent and the Daily Echo, as Saints official media partners, will make the interviews simultaneously available on the official Saints website and have already agreed to a schedule of XYZ for the coming season. We very much hope that all Saints supporters will agree that this is a sensible and satisfactory use of resources and the club does not intend to comment further, but will inform supporters of any change of this policy on the club's website."

 

So, if it is the strategy, why not say so?

[hackedoff]

The club are now making it very difficult for workers to access the gas works adjacent to the ground. The workers are being told that they will have to pay even though by law they are entitled to 24/7 access to gas installations. Yet more relationships being soured.

[alpine_saint]

The club are now making it very difficult for workers to access the gas works adjacent to the ground. The workers are being told that they will have to pay even though by law they are entitled to 24/7 access to gas installations. Yet more relationships being soured.

 

Sorry, my brother-in-law works for SSN (or whatever the hell it is called now), and I've never heard that one.

[Dellman]

As a fan I have no wish to help run the club and I'm more than thankful none of the people on this forum have the chance to do so and that they are kept well out of it. My role is to support the Club and people on this forum have lost sight of that, complaining and *****ing when we've so much to celebrate, they must be very unhappy people.

[SaintBobby]

Ultimately, if they do nothing, they have to live with the consequence as much as us - no promotion.

 

They've put a lot of time and money in, it seems daft to stop now, but if that is their wish we have no choice but to deal with it.

 

There is a "where do you stop?" problem.

 

It's easy for you or me to say that if we were the billionaire owner of the club, we might spend another £5m on, say, a winger, central midfielder and striker.

 

There's clearly been quite a lot of cash splashed thus far - on both transfers and wages.

 

Btw, I don't think it's at all obvious that non promotion would be a consequence of failing to make further signings. We could very well get promoted with the squad we've got.

 

Similarly, we might not get promoted even if we spend a few million on additions to the squad.

 

I'm as frustrated as the next Saints fan that the signings have not (yet?) matched the quality of last August or the January transfer window.

 

But I'm also conscious that you can get in to the Jack Hayward/Wolves syndrome of forever spending a few million on "one more heave".

 

That's not to say the club owners have got it right - just that it's a lot easier for you and I to work out how they should hypothetically spend their money and wax lyrical about it on a message board than it is for the "real people" with the real money to make hard cash decisions.

[Goalie66]

This thread is not to debate the relative merits or otherwise of any particular decision made by the club recently... just want to make that clear because often threads get diverted too easily.

 

However, whether you agree or disagree with some of the aforementioned decisions, one thing that surely no one can deny is that very little transparency from the club, if any at all.

 

Some will, quite rightly, say that it is the clubs perogative to say what they want, and they are not required to be transparent. Some frankly don't care what they do as long as we win on the pitch. Maybe when I was younger, I might've been one of those.

 

But not now. In my management experience, people may disagree with your decisions, but as long as you explain why a decision was reached, people can respect that and deal with it.

 

I respect Cortese's desire to run the club as he sees fit, and I have no doubt that everything he does, he does because he believes it is for the good of the club. However, I strongly believe that he would help himself and the club if he showed us fans some respect, and explained why decisions were made.

 

I don't expect, nor want, us to always agree on what he does, just as long as I can respect the reasoning or intentions behind doing so.

 

 

Excellent post.However, it is obvious that Cortese is making decisions with either very poor advice or no advice at all. There is no board of directors or non-execs, as far as I am aware, to counterbalance any ideas that Cortese may have. Instead we apear to have an arrogant despot running our club. Examples of this are:

 

1. Banning the Echo after they reported a public domain story.

2. Withdrawal of a match programme from last season with no explanation

3. Withdrawal of Fans Charter with NO notice

4. Season ticket notification late and no renewal of staged payments

5. Admin charge same as Wembley's (£3) per ticket order online

6. Photo ban of journalists

 

Like all despots I suspect that he will surround himself with "yes men" and gofers. My fear that as his ideas remain unchecked that he will start to believe that football management is well within his grasp and that us fans will put up with anything as we are emotionally comitted to support the club. I am sure he did not like the very public show of support for Pardew at the end of last season and is looking for the slightest excuse to fire him...

[St_Tel49]

You seem quite eloquent in expressing your concerns Minty, so have you tried approaching the club directly with them? Who knows, with the right approach you might find that NC or perhaps Jordan Sibley can provide you with some assurance(s)?

 

To be honest, I feel that the club is not providing less information but doing it in a different way. I think in close season for SaintsTV subscribers certainly there was more information than previous seasons about what was going on in Switzerland for example. I also feel that we FEEL less informed because the strategy for communication has changed dramatically to ensure the correct information is put out into the outside world in general. There is no speculation - just fact - and that doesn't sit easy with a very small minority of supporters who want to know if club cat is planning to sneeze.

Alternatively you might get your season ticket withdrawn.

[Weston Super Saint]

Excellent post.However, it is obvious that Cortese is making decisions with either very poor advice or no advice at all. There is no board of directors or non-execs, as far as I am aware, to counterbalance any ideas that Cortese may have. Instead we apear to have an arrogant despot running our club. Examples of this are:

 

1. Banning the Echo after they reported a public domain story.

2. Withdrawal of a match programme from last season with no explanation

3. Withdrawal of Fans Charter with NO notice

4. Season ticket notification late and no renewal of staged payments

5. Admin charge same as Wembley's (£3) per ticket order online

6. Photo ban of journalists

 

Like all despots I suspect that he will surround himself with "yes men" and gofers. My fear that as his ideas remain unchecked that he will start to believe that football management is well within his grasp and that us fans will put up with anything as we are emotionally comitted to support the club. I am sure he did not like the very public show of support for Pardew at the end of last season and is looking for the slightest excuse to fire him...

 

The rest of your post becomes meaningless.....

 

The simple fact is, you don't know, nor do I, nor, I suspect, does anybody. It was mentioned yesterday in the paper ban thread, that Cortese was in fact being advised by some media guru - we're hugely lucky it isn't Dubai Phil!!! - but whether or not that advice is being adhered to is anybody's guess....

[Minty]

To me this comes down to one simple pov, do you think Cortese is doing the best for the club? If yes, you can just accept what is going on and let him get on with it. Not really any alternative unless you believe there is some Machiavellian plot behind Liebherrs purchase, even then what can you do?

 

I think that he thinks he is doing what is best for the club. However with some of these decisions, I do not believe it will prove to be so, hence my concerns. If someone you cared about made a decision which they felt was correct, but you felt otherwise, you would say something, because you care about them. I care about SFC.

 

The simple fact is, you don't know, nor do I, nor, I suspect, does anybody.

Indeed, and I'm not going to start surmising about who is or isn't advising Cortese. All I know is that decisions are being made which I and others disagree with, and feel that in the long term, they will be counter-productive.

[hackedoff]

Sorry, my brother-in-law works for SSN (or whatever the hell it is called now), and I've never heard that one.

Its SGN and I guess I must then know your B in L .

[Smirking_Saint]

Sorry, my brother-in-law works for SSN (or whatever the hell it is called now), and I've never heard that one.

 

It is SGN, i work for SSE and was in our compound on chapel road (?) Monday, never had an issue.

[alpine_saint]

Its SGN and I guess I must then know your B in L .

 

Feel free to PM me if you want to know who it is...