Wes Tender Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 I don't know Nick Illingsworth or the reason why he has not been able to obtain a season ticket. However, IF it is because the club do not appreciate his opinions / views then it is a deplorable act. It maybe how you are allowed to behave in Italy (along with bribery, corruption and overly powerful business owners) but in England we have a strong tradition of freedom of speech. There's that IF again. And there you go stereotyping Cortese as an Italian, when he is an Italian Swiss. But hey-ho, you know what the Italians are like, eh? All corrupt and bribable. Perhaps Nick Illingworth ought to have slipped a £20 note in with his application. Yes, we have a strong tradition of free speech in England and it also covers the freedom of clubs to have admission policies and to blackball those whom they do not wish to admit. The two freedoms go together and that is how it should be. In many instances, clubs and associations do not even have to justify why they might refuse a membership or disbar a member. Nothing illegal has happened here, so feel free to join the others who do not know the full facts from both sides, but who feel quite justified in jumping to their own conclusions regardless.
MarkSFC Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Not true. Someone else mentioned it either yesterday or Monday, and a whole load of assumptions/allegations were made about the whys and wherefores which Nick felt required clarification before it spiralled out of control. See above, he didn't choose for it to come out. I was told about it while I was away in Switzerland, so it's not a new turn of events, but somebody else mentioned it, others posted various inaccuracies and he felt he had to correct those. What "procedures" are they then? Judging by what Nick's said on what he's done to find out any reasoning behind it, which all seems fairly sensible to me, he's taken the following perfectly logical route: Contact people at the ticket office to see what's going on? Check. Get no response. Contact other people within the club who might have the faintest idea what's going on? Check. Get no response. Nick didn't go public with it. Who knows? Certainly not you. No he hasn't To be another sheep because it's the done thing to call into question a long-standing supporter's motives and actions, yet a new kid on the block playing with someone else's money is beyond reproach? Whatever way you look at it Nick has effectively gone public by releasing a statement even if clarification was the motive. Ok, if it wasnt his intentions fair enough and he felt he has to act but the wording of the statement merely provokes debate. The "procedures" are whatever the club tell you to follow once you make contact with the first person in the chain..in this case I assume someone in the ticket office. As I stated clearly if he followed what the club employees asked him too and no response was given then other methods are open for selection and fair game. The club would have to live with that. By saying "certainly not you" in reply to my questions about trading standards or the football league, you clearly become personal...why?? I was merely asking the questions as suitable alternatives perhaps. His statement mixes The Saints Trust with his personal situation so clearly they are linked in this scenario. By suggesting I am a sheep is folly. If you actually knew me you would realise that my opinions are always balanced and fair based on all sides of the fence. I have made suggestion by mentioning my instinct and you have jumped to a conclusion.
Marsdinho Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Can someone answer this question that seems to have been ignored... Q) Did The Trust poll it's members before sending the statement to NC about the installment plans?
dune Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 The FACT that its NI is the main crux of this whole argument. Some people are using this situation to bash NI and the trust, and some people are using the situation to bash NC. It would be an entirely different situation altogether if it was AN Other, yet I would still feel as though I dont really care about someone not having a season ticket. Its not the end of the world, he can still go to home and away games. The fact it is Nick illingsworth should mean that i support the banning because i have criticised him and the trust a lot, but that is all irrelevent because i am looking past my views of Nick and the trust and what Nicola Cortese has done is wrong. I just hope that you are not banned from the club for exercising your right to freedom of speech, or perhaps you don't value this right.
Marsdinho Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 The fact it is Nick illingsworth should mean that i support the banning because i have criticised him and the trust a lot, but that is all irrelevent because i am looking past my views of Nick and the trust and what Nicola Cortese has done is wrong. I just hope that you are not banned from the club for exercising your right to freedom of speech, or perhaps you don't value this right. I was banned once, but thats a story for another time.
dune Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Can someone answer this question that seems to have been ignored... Q) Did The Trust poll it's members before sending the statement to NC about the installment plans? The trust have no members, it's a non entity. We all know this and that NI lives in his own little world in this respect.
Hamilton Saint Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 If I talk about things I believe in then I understand that I may indeed come across as I think they are FACT! In some cases I will know them as FACT! but will choose not to say that, although my posts might suggest I am talking as a FACT! ... Sounds like Donald Rumsfeld: "I don't know what the facts are but somebody's certainly going to sit down with him and find out what he knows that they may not know, and make sure he knows what they know that he may not know." And another gem of his: "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."
Saint Keith Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Can someone answer this question that seems to have been ignored... Q) Did The Trust poll it's members before sending the statement to NC about the installment plans? Yes, both of them
Sour Mash Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Thats a bit childish. Im sure he's basing his view point on what he has personally experienced so far, you can throw in as many "what if he did this....what if he did that" as you like. Probably wont change his view point. What if NC bought Messi, Xavi, Iniesta and Lucio tomorrow, would you still NOT support him. See we can all make "What ifs.." up I wouldn't say I don't support him, as I've posted on this thread I think Cortese is doing a very good job in lots of areas. There is much more to supporting a football club than just whether we win every game week in, week out or how much money we do or don't make.
View From The Top Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 (edited) The simple, undeniable FACT that seems to have been missed in the egofest that is this thread is that we don't know if NI has been banned. The usual anti-NC brigade, all two of them, are assuming he has been without any evidence. He may very well be able to still attend, but hey, lets not let the facts get in the way of diatribe by two people who aren't even going to bother going this coming season. Edited 28 July, 2010 by View From The Top
Marsdinho Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Yes, both of them So, in that case, he has used the umbrella of the The Trust to express his own views. Thats surely goes against the constitution of the trust.
benjii Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 The simple, undeniable FACT that seems to have been missed in the egofest that is this thread is that we don't know if NI has been banned. The usual anti-NC brigade, all two of them are assuming he has been without any evidence. He may very well be able to still attend, but hey, lets not let the facts get in the way of diatribe by two people who aren't even going to bother going this coming season. Exactly. There really are some funny little people on here.
Saint Keith Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 So, in that case, he has used the umbrella of the The Trust to express his own views. Thats surely goes against the constitution of the trust. you mean it had one ?
Sour Mash Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 The simple, undeniable FACT that seems to have been missed in the egofest that is this thread is that we don't know if NI has been banned. The usual anti-NC brigade, all two of them, are assuming he has been without any evidence. He may very well be able to still attend, but hey, lets not let the facts get in the way of diatribe by two people who aren't even going to bother going this coming season. As it stands, he hasn't been banned, but in effect had his season ticket revoked, with pretty much no communication from the club as to why. Is that not sufficient reason to challenge the club's attitude to fans, especially if seen as part of a general trend across the last few months of a lack of communication from the club towards supporters? You don't see any issue there at all? Hopefully it will all be resolved amicably, but personally I think something isn't right at the club in this regard.
Marsdinho Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 you mean it had one ? Apparently so.... "The learning process has been a long journey of hard won experience - with the trust as a “company limited by guarantee” having to operate under a constitution, a constitution strictly adhered too. " http://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/southampton/fb_news.php?storyid=8412&title=saints_trust_agm_thursday_29th_july
up and away Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Originally Posted by Secret Site Agent Just a question. If Nicola is such a strong tyrant, and he wanted all us lot to know he was the KING os ST MARY's and he decided, 'I'm going to kick that p*ick Illingstworth in the Nuts and teach them all a lesson', and to do this he decided he was going to send a message that anyone who bad mouths him will lose their season ticket, as a lot are saying here, WHY DO IT SECRETLY? Case in point. The Isralis decide to teach Hamas a lesson, so they send in an undercover commando team and crack the few water pipes and disappear? NO, they blow the hell out of them and let everyone know what they have done, and they ar the ones that have done it. So why sneakily get back at NI by cancelling his season ticket? Why not just ban him from the ground or go to press and make him look like a ****? I'm still of the mind that it's a case of his ego has been dented as he is now an irrelevence and he don't like it. IMO, it's not his intention to portray himself as the King of St Mary's - he wants to be seen as the ruthless businessman that he clearly is, while also having a fan-friendly side to him as well (hence the free coffee to the ticket office queue incident). Coming out all guns blazing won't help him maintain that image, it'll make him appear to be a bit of a loose cannon and he'll certainly lose more support than he gains if he's publicly banning/revoking season tickets from fans who dare to utter a word against him or the club. Those who don't care one way or the other about Nick would certainly question the censorship issues this episode raises from a neutral perspective. Keeping it quiet ensures that nobody's any the wiser until one side blinks, and then if Nick reveals what's happened, they can just say "we would have dealt with it privately but you decided to go public with it". It would appear that one of the people Nick told about the situation privately has let the cat out of the bag, but until people started asking questions about it, he was quite happy to keep it quiet until he'd resolved the situation one way or the other. What he will do/would have done if/when he finds out the actual reason for it, only he knows, but many people in his situation would have been straight on the phone to the papers or on forums complaining about what had happened. I don't believe there is any ego in Cortese, but he certainly reacts strongly when you go head on with him. Several times I walk the same route to the ground as Nick I and have always considered him to have balanced, fair views. What looks to have happened here is that Cortese sees this as a direct attack on him personally by going direct to Liebherr, something that got his hackles right up. I don't know what has been said and any further reason behind the removal of the season ticket, but on experience I would tend to back Nick. Not that I am going to condemn Cortese, that's just the way he is when he believes he is being personaly slighted or attacked.
Deppo Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 have you been sued for liable recently? You seem keen to protect fans from such a happening. Do you see that as NCs next move? I haven't been done for liable, but I have been sued for slender.
Marsdinho Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Steve, DBP, Either of you two got a copy of the Trusts constitution to hand, so I can have a read.
LGTL Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 The simple, undeniable FACT that seems to have been missed in the egofest that is this thread is that we don't know if NI has been banned. The usual anti-NC brigade, all two of them, are assuming he has been without any evidence. He may very well be able to still attend, but hey, lets not let the facts get in the way of diatribe by two people who aren't even going to bother going this coming season. Exactly what I was going to post after reading the 1st post and then missing out the other 13 pages of pure nonsense. Does anyone actually know whether he HAS been banned FOR CERTAIN?
SB Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 For what its worth, I don't care, the trust is powerless and so is he.. The End?
Deppo Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Who the **** are you to tell me what I have or haven't been doing? If, for example, I banned you from this forum just for having an opinion I disapproved of, would you or would you not be straight onto other forums or emailing/phoning the Echo telling people about it, saying how I run SaintsWeb with an iron fist and that the forum's **** anyway because I don't let people have an opinion that differs from my own? I reckon you would... Believe it or not, many people quite like the idea of being able to stand up for their rights, one of which just happens to be freedom of speech. If you're happy to be gagged and/or told what to say and think, congratulations on your lack of a backbone. Why did you ban Kadeem Hardison from the main board?
Dave Benson Phillips Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 The simple, undeniable FACT that seems to have been missed in the egofest that is this thread is that we don't know if NI has been banned. The usual anti-NC brigade, all two of them, are assuming he has been without any evidence. He may very well be able to still attend, but hey, lets not let the facts get in the way of diatribe by two people who aren't even going to bother going this coming season. At this moment in time, he's had his season ticket revoked. I think even the most simpleton person would be able to work that one out, wouldn't you? As for not going... I will be going to most/all away games. I was forced out of going to home games, I've since had a whopping great tax rebate and could buy a season ticket, but choosing not to on principle.
View From The Top Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Hopefully it will all be resolved amicably, but personally I think something isn't right at the club in this regard. I don't disagree with that but our resident pet neo-nazi is off on one comparing NC to Mussolini and SRS assumes, as per his way, that he is right, regardless of not know the facts. I find myself indifferent at best regarding NC but was VERY pi**ed off when the installment plan was pulled but I'll not be joining any lynch mob until I know the facts of the matter.
benjii Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 At this moment in time, he's had his season ticket revoked. I think even the most simpleton person would be able to work that one out, wouldn't you? As for not going... I will be going to most/all away games. I was forced out of going to home games, I've since had a whopping great tax rebate and could buy a season ticket, but choosing not to on principle. I'm sure I speak for all of us in applauding your high principles. They shine through, a rare beacon of virtue, in all your posts. What a gent.
View From The Top Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 At this moment in time, he's had his season ticket revoked. I think even the most simpleton person would be able to work that one out, wouldn't you? As for not going... I will be going to most/all away games. I was forced out of going to home games, I've since had a whopping great tax rebate and could buy a season ticket, but choosing not to on principle. So he hasn't been banned then, he can still buy tickets on a match by match basis? Until we know that he can't we cannot say that he's been banned. In addition, he hasn't had his season ticket revoked at all, just not been able to renew it, they is a difference. Please do try to keep up.
John B Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 So he hasn't been banned then, he can still buy tickets on a match by match basis? Until we know that he can't we cannot say that he's been banned. In addition, he hasn't had his season ticket revoked at all, just not been able to renew it, they is a difference. Please do try to keep up. Have you read the First Post of the Thread by any chance because you dont appear to have done so because that is what is being discussed not whether NI has been banned or not
View From The Top Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Have you read the First Post of the Thread by any chance because you dont appear to have done so because that is what is being discussed not whether NI has been banned or not Really, well I must go and read it as I hadn't thought of reading that at the begining or prehaps, just maybe, I was replying to other posts in which people are saying he's banned.
Dave Benson Phillips Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 So he hasn't been banned then, he can still buy tickets on a match by match basis? Until we know that he can't we cannot say that he's been banned. In addition, he hasn't had his season ticket revoked at all, just not been able to renew it, they is a difference. Please do try to keep up. He had paid for his season ticket and his payment was accepted, which means he owned a season ticket. They since refunded his money. To me that is being revoked. If he was unable to renew then they would have not allowed him to make a payment. There is a difference. Do keep up.
John B Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Really, well I must go and read it as I hadn't thought of reading that at the begining or prehaps, just maybe, I was replying to other posts in which people are saying he's banned. good because he has not been banned only had his season ticket revoked apparently
toofarnorth Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 He says he's sent correspondence to senior management, but why not just call the ticket office.
Dave Benson Phillips Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 He says he's sent correspondence to senior management, but why not just call the ticket office. LOL Oh dear... read the whole thread then you will know that his first port of call was David Luker.
Smirking_Saint Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 How the f*ck has this managed to get to 13 pages ?? Wow. -And i see we havn't actually got ANY facts whatsoever ? Crazy -As for Dunes insistance that the majority of the fanbase is p*ssed off IMO that is wrong, and i would imagine if you asked a load of saints fans in the concourses on match day over 90% would be happy. -NC has crap PR skills and is ruthless but is hardly the tyrant being made out by some The rest is a bunch of t*ss really, oh and SteveGrant, i got an infraction for having an opinion and not doing a lot wrong, which still p*sses me off
Smirking_Saint Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Are they? Have you spoken to every fan as well? Funny how loads of you knock Nick for being 'the voice of the fans' but then go and post things on behalf of other Saints fans and claim to be speaking for them as FACT. Thats pretty much what you are doing though ? I agree he has alienated a few people, but come on, on the whole they are not as bigger issues as has been made out. We don't know the reasons behind the Payment Scheme removal We don't know why NI has had his ST removed. Problem is without all the FACTS we cant actually make up an opinion.
saint_mears Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 How the f*ck has this managed to get to 13 pages ?? Wow. -And i see we havn't actually got ANY facts whatsoever ? There seems to be plenty of fact from one side but total silence from another. Crazy -As for Dunes insistance that the majority of the fanbase is p*ssed off IMO that is wrong, and i would imagine if you asked a load of saints fans in the concourses on match day over 90% would be happy. -NC has crap PR skills and is ruthless but is hardly the tyrant being made out by some The rest is a bunch of t*ss really, oh and SteveGrant, i got an infraction for having an opinion and not doing a lot wrong, which still p*sses me off There seems to be plenty of fact from one side but total silence from another.
Smirking_Saint Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 There seems to be plenty of fact from one side but total silence from another. Is it fact ?? It always worries me when one side attempts to get their side out before the other and make it public knowledge. Silence or no silence they have a reason good or bad, and the REAL events will be somewhere in the middle of the two stories.
Dave Benson Phillips Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Thats pretty much what you are doing though ? I agree he has alienated a few people, but come on, on the whole they are not as bigger issues as has been made out. We don't know the reasons behind the Payment Scheme removal We don't know why NI has had his ST removed. Problem is without all the FACTS we cant actually make up an opinion. The problem is that without any communication about FACTS from the club, then we are left to come to our own conclusions. Many people seem to think that if the club don't bother to give an explanation, then that means there must be a totally reasonable explanation for their actions. The FACT is they deliberately haven't bothered making any explanations about any of their actions in the last few months, some people may have the attitude of " oh well, until the club gives me an explanation, I won't know them " , but many people, including myself think that the club needs to start explaining its actions.
Saintandy666 Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Do we actually know for sure that he has had it revoked yet? Or are we all just speculating on something that could be actually wrong. If it has been revoked though, it is slightly worrying and seems a bit over the top, but again I would like to point out that all our opinions on this are totally uneducated as no-one here really knows the full extent of why this may have happened. But meh, speculating bull**** is always fun.
miserableoldgit Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 At this moment in time, he's had his season ticket revoked. I think even the most simpleton person would be able to work that one out, wouldn't you? As for not going... I will be going to most/all away games. I was forced out of going to home games, I've since had a whopping great tax rebate and could buy a season ticket, but choosing not to on principle.
NickG Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 He had paid for his season ticket and his payment was accepted, which means he owned a season ticket. They since refunded his money. To me that is being revoked. If he was unable to renew then they would have not allowed him to make a payment. There is a difference. Do keep up. interested, why in your last 120 plus posts - easy list from profile page - is there not a single post on any thread about preseason, players, hopes for season etc -all seem interested in is Cortesse?
John B Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 interested, why in your last 120 plus posts - easy list from profile page - is there not a single post on any thread about preseason, players, hopes for season etc -all seem interested in is Cortesse? What has it got to do with you what people post Get a life
John B Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 We are talking about free speech and tolerance on this thread something you seem not to agree with.
Ponty Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Can I just say; What has freedom of speech got to do with anything? A landlord can ban a punter from his pub just because he doesn't like his face and NC can ban anyone he wishes from SMS just because he doesn't like the way he conducts himself. SMS isn't, despite how some may see it, public land. While it might be a shame that NI possibly cannot reserve his seat next year (Or A.N. Other, for that matter) there's nothing criminal or even out of the ordinary about it. There's also been some astonishing hypocrisy on this thread. SMS isn't a democracy.
scott_saints Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Has NI released another statement yet after this thread? I bet he REALLY wants to.
Dave Benson Phillips Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Can I just say; What has freedom of speech got to do with anything? A landlord can ban a punter from his pub just because he doesn't like his face and NC can ban anyone he wishes from SMS just because he doesn't like the way he conducts himself. SMS isn't, despite how some may see it, public land. While it might be a shame that NI possibly cannot reserve his seat next year (Or A.N. Other, for that matter) there's nothing criminal or even out of the ordinary about it. There's also been some astonishing hypocrisy on this thread. SMS isn't a democracy. No doubt you can provide me of details of lots of Saints fans who have been banned from St Marys simply by having a bad word to say about Lowe when he was incharge... after all, as you said, it's nothing out of the ordinary. I await your reply.
Ponty Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 I meant, nothing out of the ordinary in society. As you probably well know.
Thedelldays Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 the funniest/saddest post on this thread was when wassis face suggest cortese took influence from benito mussonlini...y'know, tha italian facist dictator who helped send the whole world into a war.. pure gold that one
Dave Benson Phillips Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 I meant, nothing out of the ordinary in society. As you probably well know. Well rather than comparing it to life in general, why don't we stick to comparing it to our club pre-Cortese and indeed every other professional club in the land. How many examples of Chairmen revoking someones season ticket just because the person doesn't like them is there?
Ponty Posted 28 July, 2010 Posted 28 July, 2010 Well rather than comparing it to life in general, why don't we stick to comparing it to our club pre-Cortese and indeed every other professional club in the land. How many examples of Chairmen revoking someones season ticket just because the person doesn't like them is there? Who the hell knows? Certainly not you, me or anybody here.
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