Brutally honest, forget its me posting this - who is disappointed in our transfers ?

[Dave Benson Phillips]

You really do have problems reading and understanding what others write, don't you ?

Stop trying to be a smart arse all the time and try engaging brain before you post.

 

If it came to a straight choice between the two (which of course it doesn't) I put it to you that the majority of managers (and SFC fans on here for that matter) would opt for Michail Antonio over Jason Puncheon . I suggest you think back on that wonderful game this young player gave us last April when we beat Carlisle Utd 3-2 . That devastating performance we all saw that night is the crucial difference between a decent but limited player who has already found his level , and a youngster who just might go far in the game . It not just a question of raw pace either .

 

But we are both well aware of each others opinion now , so I think I'll leave it there .

 

The point that CEC was making is that Puncheon is indeed a good player at the moment, and the better one, but has found his level, whereas Antonio has the potential to go right to the top of the game with a little bit more maturity.

 

Yet people keep referring to this post saying he is wrong because Pardew played Puncheon more last season... excuse me, but can you engage your brain and highlight where in his post CEC said that most managers would PICK Antonio over Puncheon? I read the post making the point that most managers would rather SIGN Antonio rather than Puncheon... which I tend to agree with.

 

Thanks. xx

[Thedelldays]

if we had the choice of signing either right now...antonio would get my vote every time....punch is a good player..and probably more consistant...but anotnio at times seems unplayable at this level

[slickmick]

LOL, that post was aimed at saintborwick, not you Stu

Edited 22 July, 2010 by slickmick

[Dave Benson Phillips]

LOL, that post was aimed at saintborwick, not you Stu

 

Ohhhh :-) xxx

[Saint_clark]

Puncheon is better than Antonio, not by much but he is. Even when he's playing badly he still creates goals or scores them, whereas Antonio just went missing if he was having an off day.

Also, to say Puncheon is in his prime and will not improve is ludicrous - he's 23!

[Professor]

definately not the most important manager - who picks our team:

Puncheon signed with 19 leagues games left.

Alan Pardew selected him to start in all 19 of those.

Antonio signed with 35 league games left.

Alan Pardew selected him to start in 14 of those.

But Pardew also brought Antonio on as sub in another 14 games, so he played in 28 league matches, not 14. Also played in 11 cup matches, whilst Punch wasn't able to play in any. Overall, 39 games for Saints last season suggests Antonio was quite an important player. Maybe in selecting his statistics, Mr G has misled himself, but either way, Pardew is still saying he needs better cover at wide midfield, so the man himself isn't satisfied with what he's got at the moment.

The first few games of the season are just as important as the last few (see Alex Ferguson comments about need to hit ground running if you want to come top) so if Pardew's own judgement is that the squad needs strengthening, he should get on and do it. We've already seen with Richardson that having a first choice 11 isn't enough.

[slickmick]

Puncheon is better than Antonio, not by much but he is. Even when he's playing badly he still creates goals or scores them, whereas Antonio just went missing if he was having an off day.

Also, to say Puncheon is in his prime and will not improve is ludicrous - he's 23!

 

24. Puncheon is consistantly better, but compare them when they are both playing at their best, then I think Antonio is much better.

[Saint Billy]

I would like both in the team to be honest

[John B]

I would like both in the team to be honest

 

 

So who would be the other eight out field players

[slickmick]

The one thing that will be missing from our team is players that have the ability to get to the bye line and pull the ball back. In Antonio and Papa Waigo we had this in abundance at times.

[The Kraken]

if we had the choice of signing either right now...antonio would get my vote every time....punch is a good player..and probably more consistant...but anotnio at times seems unplayable at this level

 

To be fair it's almost an unfair question to ask; as I stated first off back to CEC, I would much prefer we had the option of both of them in the squad as they offer such different qualities.

 

But, looking at it short term for just the season ahead, I would go with Puncheon. While I probably agree that Antonio has the ability to be outstanding on occasions, he also proved that he can be utterly ordinary quite a few times too. For a promotion-seeking side we're going to need a number of players who put in 7 out of 10 performances almost every time they step on the pitch, and I think Punch is a more likely contender for that.

 

Anyway, AP knows the flaws of the squad depth right now so hopefully we'll soon see this resolved one way or the other.

[Alanh]

Antonio v Puncheon is a pretty pointless argument because there is room for both of them in the squad and arguably in the team. They both offer something different - Antonio is all about pace and aggression and his close control is still developing. Puncheon is all about close control and accuracy. They will both develop and may both be able to play at a higher level - Pucheon failing to make an impact at Plymouth doesn't necessrily mean he can't play at a higher level, he might have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[JustMike]

Id have neither Antonio or Papa if i am honest. Yes Antonio showed glimpses to a degree but not enough to make me lose sleep over not signing him. Papa, entertaining and the odd flash of something didnt do enough. I read on here all the time when players of greater pedegree get "linked" to us the poster usually gets shot down with "we have to aim higher" and "we could do better", so if we use the same judging standard, the same applies to these 2.

[Smirking_Saint]

Sigh

 

Yes i did, and he will.

 

I also said, in reference to your point, he will not play at a higher level than puncheons CCC.

 

Puncheon is streets ahead of Antonio as far as technical ability is concered. And IMO technique, control etc needs to be trained and bedded in at a young age, at least have a decent first touch etc by 16. Antonio doesn't, he will improve, but he will never have a great first touch, will never have a perfect delivery. As for managers having to make a choice between Puncheon and Antonio than i know it wouldn't be a player that lacks a technical presence. As for fans, yes i am sure a few would choose Antonio over Punch but that goes back to the fact that not all fans have a particularly good understanding of football.

 

Would i take Antonio back, sure i would, but not for anything over 300k. There is better, more advanced players for their age.

 

No, I think you miss his point completely. He didn't say that at this moment in time a manager would PICK Antonio over Puncheon... he makes it quite clear in his post that he is talking about potential and the whole package.

 

Few could doubt that Antonio has got the potential to be a far better player than Puncheon and has a very promising, although raw talent.

 

Once again, just so you understand ( I realise you are a bit simple ) . He is quite clearly talking about potential and most managers would SIGN Antonio as opposed to Puncheon if they had a choice between the two.

 

Do you understand now? Also, I suggest getting a life if you come on here to get your kicks and make your life feel worthy and wetting your pants at the thought of proving someone wrong ( which you didn't ) on an internet forum.

 

I refer back to the thread above in relation to Stu's post.

 

I just don't think technically he will progress that much IMO.

 

Though, if we sign him and i would love to if the price is right, than i would love to be proven wrong.

[westofshannonsaint]

Antonio v Puncheon is a pretty pointless argument because there is room for both of them in the squad and arguably in the team.....

 

& because Antonio is a reading player & it seems that they are not letting him go (at least for a price we are willing to pay)

[alpine_saint]

You really do have problems reading and understanding what others write, don't you ?

Stop trying to be a smart arse all the time and try engaging brain before you post.

 

Yep, you've got the measure of him too. I dont bother replying to his smarty-pants garbage anymore.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

I refer back to the thread above in relation to Stu's post.

 

I just don't think technically he will progress that much IMO.

 

Though, if we sign him and i would love to if the price is right, than i would love to be proven wrong.

 

I liken Antonio to Theo Walcott and Nathan Dyer.

 

It remains undecided as to whether he will follow in Walcotts footsteps or Dyers.

 

From a managers point of view, I would take a punt on Antonio over Puncheon... I think Puncheon has found his level at excellent L1/Average-Decent Championship player... The jury is still out on Antonio.

[NickG]

Think some are struggling (but they are ones who do look for arguement rather than the point!)

 

I rate Antonio.

I would like us to sign him.

Pardew rates Antonio.

He would like to sign him.

Antonio made an impact in a lot of games last season.

 

Puncheon is the better player who is more likely to start for saints.

 

Pardew is does not have to choose between them as to who he has at the club.

 

He clearly rates Puncheon as a name straight on team sheet for starting 11, and Antonio as a squad player.

 

I agree.

[hackedoff]

Let,s be honest we have got at team that will finish in the top six - no problem. However the squad ( as it stands ) is not going to secure a top two finish.

If promotion is not achieved this season, I fear that ML/NC will seek pastures new.

[Smirking_Saint]

I liken Antonio to Theo Walcott and Nathan Dyer.

 

It remains undecided as to whether he will follow in Walcotts footsteps or Dyers.

 

From a managers point of view, I would take a punt on Antonio over Puncheon... I think Puncheon has found his level at excellent L1/Average-Decent Championship player... The jury is still out on Antonio.

 

Jury is out, but Antonio has not the technical ability that even those two had, Walcott was streets ahead of Dyer and even further from Antonio, but the Dyer link is a half decent one.

 

Dyer had the wrong attitude and was too lightweight, Antonio has the right attitude but lacks the technical ability, in my mind i know which one is easier to change.

[Smirking_Saint]

Let,s be honest we have got at team that will finish in the top six - no problem. However the squad ( as it stands ) is not going to secure a top two finish.

If promotion is not achieved this season, I fear that ML/NC will seek pastures new.

 

Our first 11 is better than anyones in the league.

The three that have come down are not as good as 2 of the 3 that went up.

Swindon and Charlton have been weakened.

 

In that respect i think we will be around the top 3 all season and SHOULD finish 1st, 2nd if Pards can get the best out of what are very very capable players at this level.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Jury is out, but Antonio has not the technical ability that even those two had, Walcott was streets ahead of Dyer and even further from Antonio, but the Dyer link is a half decent one.

 

Dyer had the wrong attitude and was too lightweight, Antonio has the right attitude but lacks the technical ability, in my mind i know which one is easier to change.

 

I fear you are confusing the typical mistakes which can be expected of any young player in the initiate stages of their career with some lack of technical ability . When I see a youngster in for his first real experience of 1st team football I don't look for a error free performance - that really is asking a lot - I look for natural talent to control a football , athletic ability - above all pace , and (in a forward player at least) an eye for goal . I (and others it would seem) saw all of that in Michail Antonio to some degree at least .

 

There are no guarantees when it comes to young players and their ultimate potential , but some of the criticisms of Antonio I'm seeing here are eerily reminiscent of the sustained bashing the 'experts' on here gave another young Saints player in the early stages of his career - his name was Kenwyne Jones .

[Dave Benson Phillips]

Jury is out, but Antonio has not the technical ability that even those two had, Walcott was streets ahead of Dyer and even further from Antonio, but the Dyer link is a half decent one.

 

Dyer had the wrong attitude and was too lightweight, Antonio has the right attitude but lacks the technical ability, in my mind i know which one is easier to change.

 

Dyer was the more promising of the two and thought of by the club as the more 'complete' player before Walcott broke into the first team.

[NickG]

Walcott is nearly two years younger than Dyer and I think played for first team before Dyer did so was well ahead of him.

[Smirking_Saint]

I fear you are confusing the typical mistakes which can be expected of any young player in the initiate stages of their career with some lack of technical ability . When I see a youngster in for his first real experience of 1st team football I don't look for a error free performance - that really is asking a lot - I look for natural talent to control a football , athletic ability - above all pace , and (in a forward player at least) an eye for goal . I (and others it would seem) saw all of that in Michail Antonio to some degree at least .

 

There are no guarantees when it comes to young players and their ultimate potential , but some of the criticisms of Antonio I'm seeing here are eerily reminiscent of the sustained bashing the 'experts' on here gave another young Saints player in the early stages of his career - his name was Kenwyne Jones .

 

Perhaps, i never really commented on Kenwyne as i thought he looked a good player for us and still think he is a very good player, Derby knew what they were doing when they crippled him and Bale in that Semi final.

 

As for Antonio, he has an eye for goal, he has pace and strength, but he lacks a decent first touch and his crossing never really progressed much through the season. I am not saying the boy is not worth a punt for the right price, he probably will improve given the correct coaching, but i doubt whether he will ever be a real star in the championship and i would doubt he would make it into the prem. I may be wrong, and as i said if we sign him i would hope i am proven wrong.

 

Football is obviously about opinions, and this is one of those we don't share, but thats the beauty of it. From my point of view however, Puncheon is much more valuable to us and is the better player IMO, surely his assists showed that class ?

[Dave Benson Phillips]

Walcott is nearly two years younger than Dyer and I think played for first team before Dyer did so was well ahead of him.

 

Out of the Academy bunch, Dyer was thought of as a better prospect ( when they were both in the same team ) , I distinctly remember Georges Prost being asked the question when interviewed in the MLT suite a few years back when both were playing for the Academy team.

[Smirking_Saint]

Dyer was the more promising of the two and thought of by the club as the more 'complete' player before Walcott broke into the first team.

 

Walcott was always set for stardom, he was sponsored by Nike by the age of Fourteen and was shortlisted for the young personality of the year in 2005 when he was 16.

 

Dyer has fantastic technical ability, but he has never lived up to what was probably a good potential when he was younger.

[NickG]

just looking at Walcott's stats, as he seems to have been around for ages I had forgotten how much he achieved so quickly:

 

15 playing for our reserves, 16 our first team, 16 signs for Arsenal, 17 in England world cup squad

[NickG]

Out of the Academy bunch, Dyer was thought of as a better prospect ( when they were both in the same team ) , I distinctly remember Georges Prost being asked the question when interviewed in the MLT suite a few years back when both were playing for the Academy team.

 

Sure you are right, remember people saying he was faster as well - but by the time Walcott was 15 he had already overtaken him and every other young player of the time.

[Smirking_Saint]

just looking at Walcott's stats, as he seems to have been around for ages I had forgotten how much he achieved so quickly:

 

15 playing for our reserves, 16 our first team, 16 signs for Arsenal, 17 in England world cup squad

 

I think he has stalled at Arsenal though. Wrong club for him IMO. Chelsea or Manure and he would be a much better prospect right now IMO

[Dave Benson Phillips]

Sure you are right, remember people saying he was faster as well - but by the time Walcott was 15 he had already overtaken him and every other young player of the time.

 

It was when alot of our Academy players were setting the youth scene alight, Prost was asked by Mike Smith ( the compere in the MLT suite at the time ) who to look out for, he mentioned both Walcott and Dyer, said he thought both would play for England one day. Then he was asked which one was more likely out of the two to achieve stardom and he said Dyer... admittedly that changed in a short space of time because Dyer stuttered and Walcott came flying through.

[madruss]

The funny thing is, no-one had ever heard of either papa or antonio before we signed them-yet the way some people are raving about them now you'd think they were irreplacable. Who knows, maybe Pardew might find players who are better, they might even be players no-one has ever heard of! Or are we saying Pardew fluked both there signings?

[Professor]

Its immaterial really whether Antonio is or was better than Puncheon. Puncheon has the shirt for wide right midfield but last year we had competition for the place, providing cover and sub options. The debate has been whether the squad is weaker because Antonio hasn't been replaced and if so, when something will be done about it, given that we are now just 2 weeks from the first game. If Punch takes a knock or if there is a need to ring the changes during the game, options are limited and points dropped in August are gone for good.

[NickG]

The funny thing is, no-one had ever heard of either papa or antonio before we signed them-yet the way some people are raving about them now you'd think they were irreplacable. Who knows, maybe Pardew might find players who are better, they might even be players no-one has ever heard of! Or are we saying Pardew fluked both there signings?

 

Very good point. We attracted those during a re-building season, maybe able to attract better in a champion aiming season.

[madruss]

Very good point. We attracted those during a re-building season, maybe able to attract better in a champion aiming season.

 

And without that pesky 10 point deduction! Plus our scouting network has been in place for over a year, as opposed to a couple of months. We're bound to have a wider range of player options this time round than we did last year.

[CB Fry]

The funny thing is, no-one had ever heard of either papa or antonio before we signed them-yet the way some people are raving about them now you'd think they were irreplacable. Who knows, maybe Pardew might find players who are better, they might even be players no-one has ever heard of! Or are we saying Pardew fluked both there signings?

 

 

Quite right. Kind of makes the wallies whose tiresome and immature "who should we sign then who WHO WHO WHO WHO WHO answer me answer me answer me" routine on here look even more pathetic, doesn't it......

 

I've asked you about 3 times now. WHO should we have signed?

 

And don't say, 'a midfielder'....WHO?!!!!

 

 

 

As Madruss says - Who knows, maybe Pardew might find players who are better, they might even be players no-one has ever heard of!

[modern matron]

You seem to be missing the point as well.

 

Puncheon is in his prime, probably the best he is going to get.

 

Antonio is a raw talent and one that could go right to the top of the game.

 

So Antonio is a better prospect and most managers would choose to BUY ( not play at this time ) him over Puncheon. IMO of course.

 

In my opinion Antonio is completely unproven. He had a handful of games, showed some promise now you've turned him into another Theo! Puncheon is the better player, has potential to develop and I believe will be a key player for us this season. Antoniio? Who knows.....

[Pokerchampion]

All in all we already have a squad capable of winning this league , remember we had a -10 start , no pre season as such , at least 10-12 games before team started to knit together . We are missing real pace in the team with Antonio and Waigo gone they were by far the quickest players we had .

Im sure Pardew knows this , and has a couple of players ready to sign , the other problem we are probably encountering is , as soon as a SFC now approach a player the price doubles , and agents take the p$ss , hence no big signings so far . Cortese wont have a gun held to his head thats for sure , Watch this space next 7 days at least 2 players in , 1 will be a striker for sure and a pacy winger .

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

In my opinion Antonio is completely unproven. He had a handful of games, showed some promise now you've turned him into another Theo! Puncheon is the better player, has potential to develop and I believe will be a key player for us this season. Antoniio? Who knows.....

 

Can you please explain how a 20 year old lad with less than one full seasons worth of regular 1st team football under his belt can be expected to be anything other than 'unproven' ?

[Turkish]

Can you please explain how a 20 year old lad with less than one full seasons worth of regular 1st team football under his belt can be expected to be anything other than 'unproven' ?

 

Yet despite him being by your own admission, 'unproven' in yours eyes he is the next rooney and warrants a place in the team ahead of someone who you acknowledge is a decent CCC player?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Yet despite him being by your own admission, 'unproven' in yours eyes he is the next rooney and warrants a place in the team ahead of someone who you acknowledge is a decent CCC player?

 

Funny I don't actually remember describing Antonio as the "next Rooney" but I don't really object to the odd excursion into hyperbole . If you're really looking for proof in life then I suggest you pursue a career in forensic science rather than football punditry .

 

Are you still maintaining that we don't need to replace Papa Waigo & Michail Antonio because our squad is so wonderful that we need fear nothing ? With a long season ahead and a squad of only 18 or so experienced players at our disposal (at this time) I must say this seems a rather odd point of view to this fan .

 

On the question of evaluating young footballers all I have is my best judgment based on a lifetime of watching young players develop . Sometimes you can see the difference between ordinary youngsters such as Lloyd James/Jake Thompson for instance , and those with that hard to define 'spark' of real natural ability such as 'Fish' Mills or dare I say it Michail Antonio . This is not to say they're certainties , merely possibilities . Based only on that it remains my judgment that Antonio may well already be the equal of Jason Puncheon and he has the innate potential to become the better player - you obviously disagree .

 

Ultimately however there are only two certainties in life - death & taxes - not football .

[theyin]

this might've already been answered but what is AP's record in dealings during the transfer window in terms of leaving things till late in the day - just a thought

[Professor]

In my opinion Antonio is completely unproven. He had a handful of games, showed some promise now you've turned him into another Theo! Puncheon is the better player, has potential to develop and I believe will be a key player for us this season. Antoniio? Who knows.....

Great debate this. Congrats to Alpine for kicking it off. Matron, look at it like this:- Its not that Antonio is or was better than Punch, but he did play more than a handful of games, 39 games altogether, check the appearances stats on the OS to remove any doubt. Another wide MF player, at least as good as Antonio is needed to provide cover against injury or loss of form and for use as a sub when the first choice player takes knock, or simply tires during a game. The same applies to the left side of MF so until we have 2 new players in the squad, the team is weaker in MF than it was last year because they might be needed from week 1.

 

Even if signings are made now, time for them to gel with the rest of the squad in pre-season has already been lost. If the outcome is that we don't gain as many points in August as we should, those lost points could haunt us next April. On this basis it was reasonable for Alpine to ask about disapointment with our transfers.

[saintsub]

Great debate this. Congrats to Alpine for kicking it off. Matron, look at it like this:- Its not that Antonio is or was better than Punch, but he did play more than a handful of games, 39 games altogether, check the appearances stats on the OS to remove any doubt. Another wide MF player, at least as good as Antonio is needed to provide cover against injury or loss of form and for use as a sub when the first choice player takes knock, or simply tires during a game. The same applies to the left side of MF so until we have 2 new players in the squad, the team is weaker in MF than it was last year because they might be needed from week 1.

 

Even if signings are made now, time for them to gel with the rest of the squad in pre-season has already been lost. If the outcome is that we don't gain as many points in August as we should, those lost points could haunt us next April. On this basis it was reasonable for Alpine to ask about disapointment with our transfers.

 

I think this has already been covered but I suspect AOC is that young man and was on the tour and has thus had the chance to 'gel'; whatever that term may mean.

[Smirking_Saint]

Ultimately however there are only two certainties in life - death & taxes - not football .

 

And garbage

[brmbrm]

And garbage

 

And peddants

[monosaint]

We lose Papa Waigo and Antonio, get rid of a load of crap and buy players with proven experience in key positions. To me that makes sense when you see that Lee Holmes seems to be getting back to full fitness, Oxl;ey-Chamberlain could be a future star. So in my view I think it's about right even though I'd be happy to see another good signing. Who isn't.

[Smirking_Saint]

And peddants

 

Touche

 

I normally hate Pedants, just remember teh saying.

[Smirking_Saint]

We lose Papa Waigo and Antonio, get rid of a load of crap and buy players with proven experience in key positions. To me that makes sense when you see that Lee Holmes seems to be getting back to full fitness, Oxl;ey-Chamberlain could be a future star. So in my view I think it's about right even though I'd be happy to see another good signing. Who isn't.

 

Lee Holmes has absolutely zero pace and sugar legs.

[alpine_saint]

1 week to go, nothing done about midfield, width, or attack, and still no decent second keeper officially.

 

3 defenders brought in, one crocked already.

 

A poor summer's work.

 

(Just to remind a lot of you who sneered at this thread but said they would be worried at the beginning of August....)