Thedelldays Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 Jeez TDD! Have you got OCD? If it's not laptops then it's crash helmets. St Landrew already answered your point earlier. what do you think though...would it be reasonable..? if not, then maybe we should get on our soap boxes about the right to wear a crash helmet in stores Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericofarabia Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daren W Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 Absolutely agree with that. And it doesn't have a place in OUR society and we're talking about women wearing face veils in OUR society. There is absolutely no way that Shariah law will supercede our laws in the UK. The vast majority of people in the UK would not tolerate it or, indeed, allow it. A parallel would be British people living in, say, Dubai trying to overturn their laws on kissing in public places for example. It ain't going to happen. You've just ruined your own argument there. You've just stated that Muslim countries will not change their ways to integrate westerners, even in something so simple as kissing in public. You then state that western society should change it's natural inclinations by accepting Burhkas... Our natural inclination is to view people face to face, the burhkah is oppressive and deliberately sets it's wearers apart from others. Quite how people are getting so prissy about religion and stating that's why Sikhs can wear turbans and Hasidic Jews can wear their long sideburns and ordinary Jews can wear their yarmulke. The burhka is not a religious item of clothing, it's a cultural item and unlike the other stated religious fashion accessories, it flies in the face of every modern day anti terrorism law. That said, as a country that values freedom of speech I find it rather worrying that we can consider telling people what to wear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 You've just ruined your own argument there. You've just stated that Muslim countries will not change their ways to integrate westerners, even in something so simple as kissing in public. You then state that western society should change it's natural inclinations by accepting Burhkas... Our natural inclination is to view people face to face, the burhkah is oppressive and deliberately sets it's wearers apart from others. Quite how people are getting so prissy about religion and stating that's why Sikhs can wear turbans and Hasidic Jews can wear their long sideburns and ordinary Jews can wear their yarmulke. The burhka is not a religious item of clothing, it's a cultural item and unlike the other stated religious fashion accessories, it flies in the face of every modern day anti terrorism law. That said, as a country that values freedom of speech I find it rather worrying that we can consider telling people what to wear... No, you miss my point Daren. I was making the point that people are expected to abide by the laws of the country they're living in or visiting. And it isn't, yet, against the law to cover the face in our country. If I felt strongly that I should, for example, be allowed to kiss my husand in public whilst in Dubai, then it's for me to challenge the law. Similarly, if a law banning the burkha or any other form of concealment was introduced, it would be for those who want to wear it to challenge that law too. But I hope it doesn't come to that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 If I felt strongly that I should, for example, be allowed to kiss my husand in public whilst in Dubai, then it's for me to challenge the law. Similarly, if a law banning the burkha or any other form of concealment was introduced, it would be for those who want to wear it to challenge that law too. If you decide to go to another country then you should accept the cultural norms there. Its arrogance to go there, effectively as a guest from another country and complain. If you want to kiss your husband in public, dont go to Dubai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperm_john Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 I agree with the banning and think it should be implemented here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 If you decide to go to another country then you should accept the cultural norms there. Its arrogance to go there, effectively as a guest from another country and complain. If you want to kiss your husband in public, dont go to Dubai. Well that's the corollary to the point I was making. However, since it's not illegal to wear the burkha in the UK, then people shouldn't criticise women who choose to wear it. If it were to be made illegal, then your argument (and mine by implication) is that either those concerned voice their opposition or put up and shut up. Fortunately, in this country, we are able to campaign against laws that we don't like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 This used to make me chuckle.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 Imo,it should be banned. May seem harsh to some, but we are all entitled to our opinion. And yet we shouldn't be entitled to a choice on what clothes to wear? seems a bit of a contradiction. If we ban the burkha should we also ban: - The wearing of crash helmets when not literally on a bike (that's for you TDD )? - Hoodies? - The wearing of hats and dark glasses? - Fancy dress outfits that cover the face? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 And yet we shouldn't be entitled to a choice on what clothes to wear? seems a bit of a contradiction. If we ban the burkha should we also ban: - The wearing of crash helmets when not literally on a bike (that's for you TDD )? - Hoodies? - The wearing of hats and dark glasses? - Fancy dress outfits that cover the face? - Fake tan? - Beards? - Bandages like the invisible man had? - Facial disfigurement? - Facials? - Facials!? - Facepalm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 And, just to be on the safe side... - Facebook? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knellster Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 If we ban the burkha should we also ban: - The wearing of crash helmets when not literally on a bike (that's for you TDD )? - Hoodies? - The wearing of hats and dark glasses? - Fancy dress outfits that cover the face? Many businesses (my employer included) will already not admit anyone to their premises wearing a crash helmet, and personally I would also be quite happy to see youths prevented by law from roaming the streets wearing hoodies and covering their faces with scarves. Also, if we do allow women to wear the burkha in the UK on the basis that it's tradition then should we also allow people from France to drive on the right when using our roads? Or should people have to accept that some customs or laws from other countries simply to not fit in with the way we live here and people from those countries should adapt accordingly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 Many businesses (my employer included) will already not admit anyone to their premises wearing a crash helmet, and personally I would also be quite happy to see youths prevented by law from roaming the streets wearing hoodies and covering their faces with scarves. Also, if we do allow women to wear the burkha in the UK on the basis that it's tradition then should we also allow people from France to drive on the right when using our roads? Or should people have to accept that some customs or laws from other countries simply to not fit in with the way we live here and people from those countries should adapt accordingly? No - because they'd be breaking the law It's not against the law to wear a veil over your face (think of brides walking up the aisle). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knellster Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 No - because they'd be breaking the law I'm perfectly well aware of that! The suggestion was that we shouldn't pass a law that would prevent someone doing what is the tradition in their country. I'm merely playing devil's advocate and asking where we should draw the line if we accept that line of thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 I'm perfectly well aware of that! The suggestion was that we shouldn't pass a law that would prevent someone doing what is the tradition in their country. I'm merely playing devil's advocate and asking where we should draw the line if we accept that line of thinking. Well I for one am not against such a law because it is their tradition, I am against this law because I think everyone has a right to wear what they like and because I think that it is unreasonable to find the wearing of the burkha in itself offensive. I don't like the burkha and if my daughter converted to Islam and started wearing one I'd be very upset but if someone wants to wear it that is their choice. Equating the burkha to driving on the right is just silly. I think you should try to come up with a better analogy if you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 I'm perfectly well aware of that! The suggestion was that we shouldn't pass a law that would prevent someone doing what is the tradition in their country. I'm merely playing devil's advocate and asking where we should draw the line if we accept that line of thinking. Indeed, where would we draw the line? Here's a few suggestions: Ban turbans Ban crucifixes Ban yarmulkes Ban kilts (since it'd be UK law) Ban nun and monk habits, vicars' robes, university gowns get my drift? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecuk268 Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 Perhaps this is the answer.... http://newsarse.com/2010/07/14/french-muslim-women-encouraged-to-try-groucho-marx-glasses/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knellster Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 Anothersaintinsouthsea - We already have laws that prevent people from wearing what they like. It's illegal to wear nothing in public and it's illegal to wear a t-shirt with a slogan inciting religious or racist hatred. Do you really think that everybody should have the right to do either of those? As far as finding it offensive goes then I'm afraid we'll just have to differ. I think that it oppresses women and I find that offensive. BTF - Sorry but no I don't get your drift. I suggested that certain traditions from other countries are illegal here because they conflict with the way we live in the UK. How do any of the items in your list conflict with the way we live in the UK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 Anothersaintinsouthsea - We already have laws that prevent people from wearing what they like. It's illegal to wear nothing in public and it's illegal to wear a t-shirt with a slogan inciting religious or racist hatred. Do you really think that everybody should have the right to do either of those? As far as finding it offensive goes then I'm afraid we'll just have to differ. I think that it oppresses women and I find that offensive. BTF - Sorry but no I don't get your drift. I suggested that certain traditions from other countries are illegal here because they conflict with the way we live in the UK. How do any of the items in your list conflict with the way we live in the UK? I know you addressed the first part of your post to AnotherSaint but I'll chuck in my 5 pence worth. A number of threads ago I said that I thought people should be able to wear what they liked as long as it didn't offend public decency. There could be an argument that the two instances you suggested WOULD offend public decency. Some of the items I listed as up for banning could be construed as being in conflict with the way we live in the UK. For example, Sikhs don't have to wear crash helmets / uniform hats. The main point is that, being a free country, we embrace all cultures. Some of those cultures require the wearing of certain items. I don't see that the burkha is any different to a kilt, turban etc. etc. in that respect. I believe the choice should be for the individual to make. I don't for one moment condone the fact that some muslim women are oppressed, even in this country. But I have worked with highly educated muslim women employed in quite senior positions who CHOOSE to wear the burkha because, ironically, of the freedom it gives them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arizona Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 Anothersaintinsouthsea - We already have laws that prevent people from wearing what they like. It's illegal to wear nothing in public and it's illegal to wear a t-shirt with a slogan inciting religious or racist hatred. Do you really think that everybody should have the right to do either of those? As far as finding it offensive goes then I'm afraid we'll just have to differ. I think that it oppresses women and I find that offensive. BTF - Sorry but no I don't get your drift. I suggested that certain traditions from other countries are illegal here because they conflict with the way we live in the UK. How do any of the items in your list conflict with the way we live in the UK? Everyone is entitled to freedom of speech, but there are laws preventing that law from being abused. You shouldn't be allowed to say things which could in some way be detrimental to someone else's quality of life. That includes inciting racial, sexual or religious hatred and making false acusations to slander other people. Wearing a Burkha doesn't fall into these categories. It's an item of clothing people choose to wear. As I've already said, if women wearing Burkhas are being oppressed at the moment, they aren't suddenly going to be liberated if Burkhas are banned. In all likelyhood their husbands just wont let them out the house at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 How many terrorist bombers have been caught wearing burhkas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 (edited) Anothersaintinsouthsea - We already have laws that prevent people from wearing what they like. It's illegal to wear nothing in public and it's illegal to wear a t-shirt with a slogan inciting religious or racist hatred. Do you really think that everybody should have the right to do either of those? As far as finding it offensive goes then I'm afraid we'll just have to differ. I think that it oppresses women and I find that offensive. BTF - Sorry but no I don't get your drift. I suggested that certain traditions from other countries are illegal here because they conflict with the way we live in the UK. How do any of the items in your list conflict with the way we live in the UK? Re-read my post - I don't agree with a ban on the burkha because of freedom of choice and because I don't think it is offensive. It's obvious that I don't have a problem with certain things being prohibited on the grounds of decency. I think its pretty clear why your driving on the wrong side of the road analogy was silly. Whether you like it or some people attach a great deal of cultrual and religious importance to the burkha, for them it resonates strongly with their values and identity and it is an emotive issue. I'd be very surprised if anyone attached any emotional attachment to their "tradition" of driving on the right hand side of the road let alone any religious or cultural importance. Edited 14 July, 2010 by anothersaintinsouthsea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 One word: Democracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deppo Posted 14 July, 2010 Share Posted 14 July, 2010 I bet that if the Burka got banned over here all the Muslims would just start wearing motorcycle helmets. The only safe place to be would be a petrol station. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 15 July, 2010 Share Posted 15 July, 2010 Can someone explain what year in the history of mankind this 'covering up your modesty' malarkey came into the human psyche? I know it's somewhere on a timeline between "Cave Woman" at one end and "Chav on a mediterranean beach" at the other end but I'm not sure when someone somewhere decided it would be a good idea to cover 'woman' up. Any ideas? Perhaps if we know whose bright idea it was in the first place we can start to unravel the rational behind it today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holepuncture Posted 15 July, 2010 Share Posted 15 July, 2010 They go to court and under Conservative plans, once convicted are deported back to their country of origin. purfek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draino76 Posted 24 July, 2010 Share Posted 24 July, 2010 Had an interesting conversation with a burhka lady today. She did not want to wear the burhka in this weather; but her husband forces her to do so. I asked if any women wear the burhka out of choice around here, she replied that she knows of 1 woman, but she is deeply religious, and that all of em despise it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted 5 August, 2011 Share Posted 5 August, 2011 http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=144_1312416192 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted 5 August, 2011 Share Posted 5 August, 2011 some interesting comments on that video...you do wonder about the state of society sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 5 August, 2011 Share Posted 5 August, 2011 Really good to see the French police dragging them off the street. I would love to see this happen in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 5 August, 2011 Share Posted 5 August, 2011 I hope that, under the 'secularity and religious symbols 2004' act the French Police are that forceful in ripping the crucifix from around school pupils' necks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locksheathsaint101 Posted 5 August, 2011 Share Posted 5 August, 2011 I hope that, under the 'secularity and religious symbols 2004' act the French Police are that forceful in ripping the crucifix from around school pupils' necks. And that they punch a nun if she visits a school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 5 August, 2011 Share Posted 5 August, 2011 I bet that if the Burka got banned over here all the Muslims would just start wearing motorcycle helmets. The only safe place to be would be a petrol station. and just to think batman and spiderman would never wear their masks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 5 August, 2011 Share Posted 5 August, 2011 I hope that, under the 'secularity and religious symbols 2004' act the French Police are that forceful in ripping the crucifix from around school pupils' necks. They dont allow any religious symbols to be worn in french schools. Wearing a crucifix in school has been a bone of contention for years, but their schools remain doggedly secular. No bad thing imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 5 August, 2011 Share Posted 5 August, 2011 They dont allow any religious symbols to be worn in french schools. Wearing a crucifix in school has been a bone of contention for years, but their schools remain doggedly secular. No bad thing imho. I agree, I just hope that there are not any contradictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 5 August, 2011 Share Posted 5 August, 2011 Just ban the religious indoctrination of children and I bet within a generation or two banning burkas/crosses etc would be irrelevant. Wise words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 5 August, 2011 Share Posted 5 August, 2011 I'm not that bothered about Burkas but it's good to see the French enforcing what they believe in and not treading on egg shells around muslims through fear of offending. I find it hypocritical of muslims to moan about their human rights here in Europe when most muslim countries care a bit about rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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