Sorry, another teacher bashing thread I'm afraid......

[Johnny Bognor]

I know that they do a valuable job, but £200,000 per annum for a primary school head is totally taking the ****.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10609273.stm

 

It must be bad, because even the Union thinks it is outrageous.

 

I see he claimed £10,000 per annum for overtime, so I hope BTF's SIL is getting paid for all his extra hours.

[OldNick]

astounding

[badgerx16]

Just shows what a mess you can get into when you devolve too much power to unqualified do-gooders ( the school governers ).

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

It does sound like he has been paid way too much (especially the overtime) but I keep on seeing people compare salaries to the Prime Minister's salary which is just silly. 99.9% of jobs pay a wage that reflects the market rate. No one does the PM role cos of the salary so it is artificially low. If it truly reflected the responsibilities of the role the salary would be in the millions.

[saintjay77]

over half of that was due to back pay and bonus's.

 

If he got the pay when he should have would anyone have made a meal of it?

 

Not sure what the school is like or what it was like before he turned up but if someone is going to offer cash to get things done is it his fault for taking up the challenge?

 

As for capping the salery to the same as the PM, I think thats ridiculas. Would that capping also include free accomodation around the country, or a nice fat expences account?

[JustMike]

"......received the money in basic salary, back-dated payments and bonuses for a special project..... "

 

so not actually his yearly salary then

[EastleighSoulBoy]

"......received the money in basic salary, back-dated payments and bonuses for a special project..... "

 

so not actually his yearly salary then

 

Meh, let's bash the teachers anyway

 

** He said, tongue in cheek.

[CB Saint]

£86k basic

Back pay because he was underpaid for a couple of year

Bonus for turning a school around from poor to outstanding in a year

£10k of overtime

 

The only issue I have is if you are paid £80k plus - you should n't get overtime.

 

Its grandstanding by the unions to get the issue of teachers pay on the front page. Worked didn't it.

[Johnny Bognor]

£86k basic

Back pay because he was underpaid for a couple of year

Bonus for turning a school around from poor to outstanding in a year

£10k of overtime

 

The only issue I have is if you are paid £80k plus - you should n't get overtime.

 

Its grandstanding by the unions to get the issue of teachers pay on the front page. Worked didn't it.

 

 

 

According to the detail in the article, you are looking at:

Base £83k

Overtime £10k

Special Project = £51.5k

Actual Total = £144.5k (per annum)

 

Still way too much IMO!!!

[View From The Top]

I know that they do a valuable job, but £200,000 per annum for a primary school head is totally taking the ****.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10609273.stm

 

It must be bad, because even the Union thinks it is outrageous.

 

I see he claimed £10,000 per annum for overtime, so I hope BTF's SIL is getting paid for all his extra hours.

 

Market forces dictate the price of good leadership.

 

I thought you were all for letting the markets decide.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He's paid way to much though for a primary head.

[Johnny Bognor]

Market forces dictate the price of good leadership.

 

I thought you were all for letting the markets decide.

 

But it's not a true market, as he gets given 400 customers (The rest of us have to fight for each and every customer).

 

He's paid way to much though for a primary head.

 

Glad you agree on this.

[OldNick]

Market forces dictate the price of good leadership.

 

I thought you were all for letting the markets decide.

not quite market conditions though.

[View From The Top]

But it's not a true market, as he gets given 400 customers (The rest of us have to fight for each and every customer).

 

Incorrect. He applies for a job along with other condidates and the salary has been set by the organisation in the hope that they bring in the best they can. If he fails he loses his job.

 

Supply & demand and the best being paid for their results. How very free market.

[Fowllyd]

According to the detail in the article, you are looking at:

Base £83k

Overtime £10k

Special Project = £51.5k

Actual Total = £144.5k (per annum)

 

Still way too much IMO!!!

 

It's only per annum if he's going to get those same payments next year. A large slice of what you quote is back pay from previous employment, which is clearly a one-off payment, and not a per annum one. I'm surprised that he's been able to claim overtime though, as I didn't think any teachers were paid that, let alone heads. Do you think that his salary of £82,714 is too high? There's a discussion to be had there, I'm sure, but including that £51k as part of it is nonsensical.

[Johnny Bognor]

Incorrect. He applies for a job along with other condidates and the salary has been set by the organisation in the hope that they bring in the best they can. If he fails he loses his job.

 

Incorrect, he gets moved to another school (as per the incompetent teachers thread).

 

As for competition, I imagine there are tens of thousands of teachers that would be quite happy to do that job for half that money. Thorpie on here is always banging on about how little he is paid, I am sure he'd give it a damn good go for £50k.

[Johnny Bognor]

It's only per annum if he's going to get those same payments next year. A large slice of what you quote is back pay from previous employment, which is clearly a one-off payment, and not a per annum one. I'm surprised that he's been able to claim overtime though, as I didn't think any teachers were paid that, let alone heads. Do you think that his salary of £82,714 is too high? There's a discussion to be had there, I'm sure, but including that £51k as part of it is nonsensical.

 

In the article, he received £103k for this special project over two years, which I suppose you could class as bonuses. However, you could argue that he should be delivering the very best he can for his basic salary (because that is what he is paid to do), so why give him £103k extra (of which £53k was for the previous year)?

[benjii]

On the contrary - if all head teachers were paid something similar schools would be much better as people with a bit of calibre would do the job.

 

It would ultimately result in economic efficiency, better education and a better society.

 

Pay them all more and get the talent in. Well done to this chap.

[saintjay77]

Incorrect, he gets moved to another school (as per the incompetent teachers thread).

 

As for competition, I imagine there are tens of thousands of teachers that would be quite happy to do that job for half that money. Thorpie on here is always banging on about how little he is paid, I am sure he'd give it a damn good go for £50k.

 

If they could of employed a head teacher at that school in that location for 50k do you really think they would have offered 80 odd?

 

I cant imagine heads of even the biggest schools in my area to be on that kind of money and think 50K would be a fairer guess but I doubt any of them would take 50K to do the same job working in South London.

 

The average wage of someone in IT is around 35K according to the advert. Do I complain I am way off the average?

[bridge too far]

In pursuit of facts I found this on the BBC website:

 

"The bulk of the £200,000 pay package he received last year was for the work he did on the London Challenge and City Challenge project over two years.

These schemes support schools in challenging circumstances and have been very successful in improving education in deprived areas of the country.

 

Mr Elms is one of only 75 head teachers in England to have been awarded the prestigious role of National Leader of Education.

As such he would be responsible for helping other schools that are struggling.

The type of support on offer varies, but can involve the leader going as far as taking on an executive headship of another school or schools.

It is not clear how much support Mr Elms offered, but the scheme has been widely seen to have made a big difference.

 

Tidemill School is also in the midst of a multi-million pound rebuild, due to be complete by early 2011.

As head teacher, Mr Elms would have had a key role in this redevelopment which would have required much extra work."

 

So he's not actually earning £200K a year.

 

Basic pay - £82,714.37

City Challenge - £102,955.00 over two years

Out-of-hours work - £9,317

Arrears - £9,317

[View From The Top]

Incorrect, he gets moved to another school (as per the incompetent teachers thread).

 

As for competition, I imagine there are tens of thousands of teachers that would be quite happy to do that job for half that money. Thorpie on here is always banging on about how little he is paid, I am sure he'd give it a damn good go for £50k.

 

How wrong you are.

 

Head teachers report to and are employed by the school govenors who can and do sack headteachers.

 

You are also wrong as headteachers aren't teachers and therefore people like Thorpe and myself cannot apply as we do not possess the correct quals. In addition, those that can apply are free to do so and therefore that candidate must be deemed as being the best in the field that applied.

 

Still, we wouldn't want you getting your facts wrong about a sector you know nothing about would we.

 

I'm sure you could get high calibre staff for less money in your business and will therefore offer less money would you are recruiting next.

[benjii]

Bascially, we've got a guy doing a damn good job, improving the lives of many others and getting rewarded accordingly. That is how a public service industry should operate.

 

I would rather we had a fleet of people like the gent in the story on £200k a year (even though he isn't necessarily on that) than a load of the incompetent, uninspiring plums that we seem to have on £70k (or whatever).

[Johnny Bognor]

How wrong you are.

 

Head teachers report to and are employed by the school govenors who can and do sack headteachers.

.

 

That was me being ever so slightly tongue-in-cheek, so don't get your hammer and sickle boxer shorts in a twist.

 

Still, we wouldn't want you getting your facts wrong about a sector you know nothing about would we.

 

To be fair, VFTT, I did go to school, so know a little bit about it (I certainly get it from a customer perspective). I also have two children at primary school, so my experience goes a little further than goading leftie teachers on an internet forum. You need to try and recognise when I am taking the **** vs making a point.

 

As it happens, the head at my kids primary is excellent (I would even go as far as saying outstanding), however I would say that £80k is a fair salary for him doing that job. At the end of the day, he is responsible for 25 staff maximum (remember that Teachers always bang on about pupil numbers to accelerate their own position), and so he is ultimately managing the equivalent to a small SME.

 

We are constantly told about the extra hours teachers put in over and above school hours, but in this case, the head is getting paid for those extra hours in overtime - does this mean I can now criticise him for taking all of that holiday?

Edited 13 July, 2010 by Johnny Bognor

[View From The Top]

That was me being ever so slightly tongue-in-cheek, so don't get your hammer and sickle boxer shorts in a twist.

 

 

 

To be fair, VFTT, I did go to school, so know a little bit about it (I certainly get it from a customer perspective). I also have two children at primary school, so my experience goes a little further than goading leftie teachers on an internet forum. You need to try and recognise when I am taking the **** vs making a point.

 

As it happens, the head at my kids primary is excellent (I would even go as far as saying outstanding), however I would say that £80k is a fair salary for him doing that job. At the end of the day, he is responsible for 25 staff maximum (remember that Teachers always bang on about pupil numbers to accelerate their own position), and so he is ultimately managing the equivalent to a small SME.

 

Ahhh, the old "I'm wrong so I'll pretend I'm joking" routine.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

That was me being ever so slightly tongue-in-cheek, so don't get your hammer and sickle boxer shorts in a twist.

 

 

 

To be fair, VFTT, I did go to school, so know a little bit about it (I certainly get it from a customer perspective). I also have two children at primary school, so my experience goes a little further than goading leftie teachers on an internet forum. You need to try and recognise when I am taking the **** vs making a point.

 

As it happens, the head at my kids primary is excellent (I would even go as far as saying outstanding), however I would say that £80k is a fair salary for him doing that job. At the end of the day, he is responsible for 25 staff maximum (remember that Teachers always bang on about pupil numbers to accelerate their own position), and so he is ultimately managing the equivalent to a small SME.

 

We are constantly told about the extra hours teachers put in over and above school hours, but in this case, the head is getting paid for those extra hours in overtime - does this mean I can now criticise him for taking all of that holiday?

 

I think a fair comment, because I have been guilty of it, is that humour doesn't always travel well in the ether.

[Johnny Bognor]

Ahhh, the old "I'm wrong so I'll pretend I'm joking" routine.

 

No you're playing the "He's joking, but I'll try and prove him wrong" because as at the end of the day, you need to get one up on me now and again as it is good for your self esteem. So if it makes you feel better, I'm happy to take one for the team.

[benjii]

There's no point trying to debate with View From The Top. Complete waste of time.

[bridge too far]

That was me being ever so slightly tongue-in-cheek, so don't get your hammer and sickle boxer shorts in a twist.

 

 

 

To be fair, VFTT, I did go to school, so know a little bit about it (I certainly get it from a customer perspective). I also have two children at primary school, so my experience goes a little further than goading leftie teachers on an internet forum. You need to try and recognise when I am taking the **** vs making a point.

 

As it happens, the head at my kids primary is excellent (I would even go as far as saying outstanding), however I would say that £80k is a fair salary for him doing that job. At the end of the day, he is responsible for 25 staff maximum (remember that Teachers always bang on about pupil numbers to accelerate their own position), and so he is ultimately managing the equivalent to a small SME.

 

We are constantly told about the extra hours teachers put in over and above school hours, but in this case, the head is getting paid for those extra hours in overtime - does this mean I can now criticise him for taking all of that holiday?

 

Blimey, JB, I go to hospital occasionally. That doesn't mean I have the knowledge to criticise or judge the way the surgeon carries out a procedure! Your knowledge of schools is based on your experience and that of your children. It doesn't mean you have an in-depth knowledge of the finer points of managing and improving a school.

 

However, if you read the BBC report above, you will see that his overtime was probably for the extra duties he undertook in delivering a multi-million pound capital project. And for being a member of an elite performance body helping to deliver improvements in other schools. Given that he would still have to run his own school, it stands to reason he did the extra work in his own time.

 

A few years ago I audited a school building project that had gone horribly wrong (the fault of both the LEA and the contractor). The headmaster of that school spent every weekend and most nights building up a dossier to support the dismissal of the LEA design team and proceedings against the contractor. He came very close to having a breakdown, trying to run his school that was falling down around him and building up the evidence.

[View From The Top]

There's no point trying to debate with View From The Top. Complete waste of time.

 

There was no debate to be had. Mr Bognor was wrong.

 

Your point, however, about the value that "superheads" offer is valid.

[View From The Top]

No you're playing the "He's joking, but I'll try and prove him wrong" because as at the end of the day, you need to get one up on me now and again as it is good for your self esteem. So if it makes you feel better, I'm happy to take one for the team.

 

If it makes you feel better I'll allow you to slink off pretending no one noticed.

[benjii]

There was no debate to be had. Mr Bognor was wrong.

 

Your point, however, about the value that "superheads" offer is valid.

 

Thank you. Obviously I meant that there's no point debating because you are always correct

[View From The Top]

We are constantly told about the extra hours teachers put in over and above school hours, but in this case, the head is getting paid for those extra hours in overtime - does this mean I can now criticise him for taking all of that holiday?

 

Prehaps his overtime was in his holidays or prehaps his overtime was paid for his previous position which had contracted hours of which he went over.

 

What is clear, is that he didn't earn that whilst employed in his current position, it pre-dates.

[View From The Top]

Thank you. Obviously I meant that there's no point debating because you are always correct

 

Let's put it this way, I do know about this sector.

 

I don't argue the toss when it's debates around sectors I have no idea about. I then defer to those who know how they work.

[Johnny Bognor]

Blimey, JB, I go to hospital occasionally. That doesn't mean I have the knowledge to criticise or judge the way the surgeon carries out a procedure! Your knowledge of schools is based on your experience and that of your children. It doesn't mean you have an in-depth knowledge of the finer points of managing and improving a school.

 

But BTF, I started the "Incompetent Teacher" thread which was contributed to by many of the teachers on here. They all clearly explained the processes (unless they were lying), so I can draw on their insight, input and experience. Therefore, me making a crude point that they would be moved on to another school can only be taken as tongue-in-cheek or a wind up (which it was).

 

Believe it or not, spending time on TSW is not a complete waste of time as you actually learn something (now and again).

 

 

 

However, if you read the BBC report above, you will see that his overtime was probably for the extra duties he undertook in delivering a multi-million pound capital project. And for being a member of an elite performance body helping to deliver improvements in other schools. Given that he would still have to run his own school, it stands to reason he did the extra work in his own time.

 

Probably definately maybe

 

A few years ago I audited a school building project that had gone horribly wrong (the fault of both the LEA and the contractor). The headmaster of that school spent every weekend and most nights building up a dossier to support the dismissal of the LEA design team and proceedings against the contractor. He came very close to having a breakdown, trying to run his school that was falling down around him and building up the evidence.

 

Fair play for going above and beyond the call of duty, but this incident is a one-off / extremely rare. We can all find something in our working lives that is extreme or rare. My wife had a bomb threat on her flight a few months ago and as terrifying as it must have been, it is not the norm. Hell, a copper got his brains blown out by that nutter last week in the call of duty.....he doesn't earn anywhere near that of the head that you cite.

[Johnny Bognor]

If it makes you feel better I'll allow you to slink off pretending no one noticed.

 

 

See....

 

But BTF, I started the "Incompetent Teacher" thread which was contributed to by many of the teachers on here. They all clearly explained the processes (unless they were lying), so I can draw on their insight, input and experience. Therefore, me making a crude point that they would be moved on to another school can only be taken as tongue-in-cheek or a wind up (which it was).

 

Believe it or not, spending time on TSW is not a complete waste of time as you actually learn something (now and again).

 

1/10. Must try harder.

[saintjay77]

Blimey, JB, I go to hospital occasionally. That doesn't mean I have the knowledge to criticise or judge the way the surgeon carries out a procedure! Your knowledge of schools is based on your experience and that of your children. It doesn't mean you have an in-depth knowledge of the finer points of managing and improving a school.

 

However, if you read the BBC report above, you will see that his overtime was probably for the extra duties he undertook in delivering a multi-million pound capital project. And for being a member of an elite performance body helping to deliver improvements in other schools. Given that he would still have to run his own school, it stands to reason he did the extra work in his own time.

 

A few years ago I audited a school building project that had gone horribly wrong (the fault of both the LEA and the contractor). The headmaster of that school spent every weekend and most nights building up a dossier to support the dismissal of the LEA design team and proceedings against the contractor. He came very close to having a breakdown, trying to run his school that was falling down around him and building up the evidence.

 

TBF I read it that the OT he was paid was not typically OT for his normal dutys. Enough was suggested that the OT was for Extra work outside his normal running of the school. So your link above makes more sense. The press likes headlines though and a bit of reasearch would have made this less of a story so they probably didnt bother.

[View From The Top]

See....

 

 

 

1/10. Must try harder.

 

Headteachers are not governed by the same rules as teachers. They are employed on different contracts with different T&Cs etc. These are, increasingly, fixed term and offer bonuses*. None of which, IIRC, is mentioned in the other thread which I haven't read since my last post in it due to it being populated by idiots who clearly have no idea about how the education system works.

 

Still, you knew that they were on different contracts and are only joking.

 

*This will vary depending on regions, social status/OFSTED status of the school etc. We worse the school/area the bigger the rewards often are.

Edited 13 July, 2010 by View From The Top

[Fowllyd]

In the article, he received £103k for this special project over two years, which I suppose you could class as bonuses. However, you could argue that he should be delivering the very best he can for his basic salary (because that is what he is paid to do), so why give him £103k extra (of which £53k was for the previous year)?

 

I'd have thought that the special project would count as employment over and above his regular position as a head teacher, rather than part and parcel of it. So no, it's not bonuses, it's remuneration for an additional job being done. He's clearly very highly regarded, so I think you can take it as read that he was already delivering the very best for his basic salary. Why pay him extra? Because he was doing extra work, work which was not a part of his day to day job.

[bridge too far]

I'd have thought that the special project would count as employment over and above his regular position as a head teacher, rather than part and parcel of it. So no, it's not bonuses, it's remuneration for an additional job being done. He's clearly very highly regarded, so I think you can take it as read that he was already delivering the very best for his basic salary. Why pay him extra? Because he was doing extra work, work which was not a part of his day to day job.

 

Exactly - work with other schools, that were under-performing, to bring them up to the high standard that his school had attained.

[Johnny Bognor]

Still, you knew that they were on different contracts and are only joking.

 

Totally irrelevant to our disagreement. You are trying to BTF me, where you will drag me off of topic into a quiet / dark corner in order to score some cheap points. You'll be going on about hospital cleaning contracts next (that was a joke BTW).

 

Here is the synopsys of our "disagreement"

 

 

If he fails he loses his job.

 

Incorrect, he gets moved to another school (as per the incompetent teachers thread).

 

How wrong you are. Head teachers report to and are employed by the school govenors who can and do sack headteachers.

 

That was me being ever so slightly tongue-in-cheek, so don't get your hammer and sickle boxer shorts in a twist.

 

Ahhh, the old "I'm wrong so I'll pretend I'm joking" routine.

 

No you're playing the "He's joking, but I'll try and prove him wrong" because as at the end of the day, you need to get one up on me now and again as it is good for your self esteem. So if it makes you feel better, I'm happy to take one for the team.

 

If it makes you feel better I'll allow you to slink off pretending no one noticed.

 

Headteachers are not governed by the same rules as teachers. They are employed on different contracts with different T&Cs etc. These are, increasingly, fixed term and offer bonuses*. None of which, IIRC, is mentioned in the other thread which I haven't read since my last post in it due to it being populated by idiots who clearly have no idea about how the education system works.

 

What the hell has that last point got to do with me joking that crap HT's won't lose their jobs but get moved on to another school.

 

See me after class. (That was a joke BTW)

Edited 13 July, 2010 by Johnny Bognor

[Deppo]

Some really good jokes on this thread. Well done Johnny!

[mack rill]

Wonder what the going rate is for kicking a ball around for 90min.

[bridge too far]

Wonder what the going rate is for kicking a ball around for 90min.

 

Well, for some it's about the same per week as this HT earned in a year (although in fact it was for 2 years).

 

Screwed priorities in this country I think.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Head teachers certainly do earn their 80-90k a year salary, but £200k is beyond mad. He seems to have been getting paid for work that is taken as 'granted' in other schools as per the workload/pay agreements etc. Not suprised the unions are mad, it once again undermines our already fragile position.

[Bananaman]

surely football players getting paid tens of thousands a week is worse??....

[Johnny Bognor]

Some really good jokers on this thread

 

Couldn't agree more (For VFTT, that was a joke BTW)

[Kadeem Hardison]

I shop in Tesco, so am pretty sure I know how to run successful multinational company with a weekly turnover of £1bn.

[Saintandy666]

It's too much, but to be fair he has turned a school in a very difficult area into an outstanding one. He also, according to parents talking on BBC news tonight goes way beyond his pay grade in what he does. It should also be noted that the final figure is an amalgamation of many factors and that taking the view, 'he's in the public sector so should work for a pittance' is not only a silly opinion, but also an unproductive one.

[Ziggy]

Did anyone notice the piece in the article about university vice chancellors earning £300k and £400k? How the hell is that justified?

[chrisobee]

Some really good jokes on this thread. Well done Johnny!

 

Ah well, 40 posts in and actually agreeing with you I think I'll quit while I'm ahead;)

[bridge too far]

Did anyone notice the piece in the article about university vice chancellors earning £300k and £400k? How the hell is that justified?

 

Did anyone hear on the news today about the new CEO of Marks & Spencer earning a total package of £15m? How the hell is that justified?