15,000 Incompetent Teachers

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

I'm going to revert back to my 'outrage' style posts I rhink as my sensible ones are simply ignored...

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

I've also seen the sheer joy on his face when he's talking about a milestone achieved by one of 'his' children.

 

But again, as I said before, he's not unique. He's just doing his job. And I don't begrudge him a penny of his salary. In fact I think he should earn a lot, lot more.

 

I dont think anyone would argue that good teachers should be paid more, a lot more. However, the ones that are not up to it need drumming out. It is the useless, lazy, incompetant teachers that are bring the profession down and allowing people to make cheap points about holidays and hours of work.Surely it is in his interests that his profession is viewed on a par with nurses and fire fighters. You rarely have articles attacking lazy nurses, most people agree they are angels that deserve more money. When it comes to teachers there is not the same respect, and there should be. It is a wonderful profession that really should be at the top of any "respect list". The fact it isn't is not down to people like your SIL, but because of others that let the whole profession down.

[toofarnorth]

But doesn't your point actually back up what Dune is saying! Just as in the thread last week about incapacity benefit Dune wasn’t saying that everyone on it are slobs, he’s not saying here that all teachers and all public sector workers are taking an easy option, I think anyone with an ounce of common sense would know that if that were the case the systems would quickly grind to a halt!

 

But you’ve just said it yourself, “the good workers are let down by dead wood”, that’s the problem, the system is too scared to get rid of them due to the long winded process of managing people out, combined with weak management not prepared to see it through.

 

I used to be an operations manager (private sector) and I managed several teams of people and one of my targets when I was offered the job was to get the department back on track as it was a mess. For me that meant getting rid of some of these kind of people and it was hard going, very hard going.

 

It meant documenting everything, having many meetings, setting performance improvement plans, being very careful that you said the right thing, did the right thing and followed the correct procedures to the letter. With all the individuals involved I’d have loved them to have proven me wrong and turned their performances around, but in each case my gut feeling was that it would only end with them leaving the company in one way or another and that’s what happened. But it was a long road involving, unions, threats of legal action, etc.

 

Fortunately as I did everything by the book I managed to eventually get rid of all those people. I knew everything was done correctly, but I can see why people don’t want to go down that route. I had a lot of sleepless nights and even the company that employed me to sort out this area lost it’s nerve at one point and I was pretty much left to do it on my own with only the support of a couple of my team leaders, so getting rid of deadwood is extremely hard.

 

 

As for Dunes comments, my sister works for the public sector and she hates her job. Every time I talk to her about it and I ask her why she doesn’t move on, she says that the benefits of the job are too good. To me that is a nonsense, as no benefits are worth it if you are ultimately unhappy in you job, but that is Dunes point isn’t it, she is happy to plod on because the benefits are good, even though I think she’s one of the good ones that toofarnorth refers too, she’s still happy to deal with the sh!t based on some of the job benefits.

 

She’s managing some people and recently ‘inherited’ a new employee from a different area of the business. This guy is exactly the kind of person we’re talking about, he’s a mid 40’s black guy who is quite frankly useless. She doesn’t know how he’s managed to build up 20 odd years service, but he’s also heavily involved in the union as he’s a rep so she is stuck with him as she think if she makes any effort to manage him out he’ll play both the union card and the race card!

 

I do see what your saying although I interpreted Dune's comments to say that ALL those who chose to go in to the public sector are only there because they are lazy etc, which is simply untrue. I dont think the people I refer to as deadwood make a delibertate beeline for the public sector as they see it as having better benefits and an easier ride etc, I simply think that they have not been removed from their jobs when it became apparent they couldn't do them because of a combination of over molly coddling and bad management. Overtime this now means that there is a huge level of inefficiency that those that are good have to work much harder to make up for. Also even more frighteningly some of this deadwood seems to made it into senior ranks as for too long many public sector departments have promoted those who provide long service, rather than those who are gifted and offer the most.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

I dont think anyone would argue that good teachers should be paid more, a lot more. However, the ones that are not up to it need drumming out. It is the useless, lazy, incompetant teachers that are bring the profession down and allowing people to make cheap points about holidays and hours of work.Surely it is in his interests that his profession is viewed on a par with nurses and fire fighters. You rarely have articles attacking lazy nurses, most people agree they are angels that deserve more money. When it comes to teachers there is not the same respect, and there should be. It is a wonderful profession that really should be at the top of any "respect list". The fact it isn't is not down to people like your SIL, but because of others that let the whole profession down.

 

With regards to nurses fire fighters: ADULTS know how much effort these professionals put in on a day to day basis; we all have/all will at some point come into contact with them. Unless you have children, or you're a school governor, you will not deal with teachers on a 'day to day' basis and therefore less is known about the job we do and what is needed to do the job properly. Therefore people who have NO IDEA can have a pop and feel justified with their comments.

[70's Mike]

The whole system is just so pc

my youngest is in year 10 and you go along to parent evenings and the teacher says he is at level c, i ask how that compares with others in class and get told it is not relevant as it is a national standard,So i say but it is relevant because if the national standard is b and everyone in the class is c then just maybe it is not the pupils but the teacher.

i am not always popular because i will not accept their jargon

[Lord Duckhunter]

With regards to nurses fire fighters: ADULTS know how much effort these professionals put in on a day to day basis; we all have/all will at some point come into contact with them. Unless you have children, or you're a school governor, you will not deal with teachers on a 'day to day' basis and therefore less is known about the job we do and what is needed to do the job properly. Therefore people who have NO IDEA can have a pop and feel justified with their comments.

 

I have 4 children and have seen a range of teachers, some great, some poor. My oldest was told by one if he kept quiet and didn't disrupet the rest of the classes he didn't need to do anything ( I only found out when he was 19 and left). Luckily he was good with his hands and has a decent job now, but it could have messed him up. My 10 year old has been inspired by his teacher this year. Yes, he is into sports and his class tutor is the Sports teacher, but his behaviour and the rest of his work has improved steadily. He geniunely loves school and most of that is down to this one guy. When he leaves his year in July, I'm going to make a point of seeking him out and thanking him.

 

The range between good and bad is too high in my opinion, and it's just a lottery if your kids get decent teachers or not.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

The whole system is just so pc

my youngest is in year 10 and you go along to parent evenings and the teacher says he is at level c, i ask how that compares with others in class and get told it is not relevant as it is a national standard,So i say but it is relevant because if the national standard is b and everyone in the class is c then just maybe it is not the pupils but the teacher.

i am not always popular because i will not accept their jargon

 

That is absolute ******** Mike, how the hell do you expect that teacher to know the national average of someone at year 10 when they're not 'nationally assessed' but only internally assessed in year 10? The teacher should be able to tell you how he is doing with regards to the rest of the class as their progress should be assessed internally every half term or so (that's the practice in my school anyway) though.

 

Also another factor you are over-looking is that no matter what 'the average' is, depending on the ability of your child in that subject they may never ever achieve that 'average'. If your child is in a bottom set for example, the teacher would be trying desperatly to get those pupils to a C when testing would show that they would be probably be a D/E/F student. I'm afraid you probably go away from parent's evening looking rather stupid.

 

It may come as a suprise to you but not all children are the same! This, by the way, is another example of people who do not understand how the education profession works and make accusations that are unfounded.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

I have 4 children and have seen a range of teachers, some great, some poor. My oldest was told by one if he kept quiet and didn't disrupet the rest of the classes he didn't need to do anything ( I only found out when he was 19 and left). Luckily he was good with his hands and has a decent job now, but it could have messed him up. My 10 year old has been inspired by his teacher this year. Yes, he is into sports and his class tutor is the Sports teacher, but his behaviour and the rest of his work has improved steadily. He geniunely loves school and most of that is down to this one guy. When he leaves his year in July, I'm going to make a point of seeking him out and thanking him.

 

The range between good and bad is too high in my opinion, and it's just a lottery if your kids get decent teachers or not.

 

Did your son reveal how badly he obviously behaved in that class to be given that instruction? The children have a right to learn just as much as I have a right to teach and if that was me, I would not let one child disrupt the learning of 29 others as it is simply not fair. True, he should have been either sent to a member of SLT with some work or perhaps to Learning Development or the teacher should have called you in for a meeting (it's what I would do to try and resolve the situation) and there is no excuse for a pupil not doing work, but you have to understand, that teacher was thinking of the other pupils in that class and did not want their learning to be disrupted.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Did your son reveal how badly he obviously behaved in that class to be given that instruction? The children have a right to learn just as much as I have a right to teach and if that was me, I would not let one child disrupt the learning of 29 others as it is simply not fair. True, he should have been either sent to a member of SLT with some work or perhaps to Learning Development or the teacher should have called you in for a meeting (it's what I would do to try and resolve the situation) and there is no excuse for a pupil not doing work, but you have to understand, that teacher was thinking of the other pupils in that class and did not want their learning to be disrupted.

 

I'm under no illusion, I know he was a sod (I had to put up with him at home). However, that's not the point. He should have been dealt with and I should have been informed. It wasn't just him, there were 3/4 of them in the same class. That teacher may have had the best interests of the class at heart, but there must have been better ways of dealing with it.

 

As I said, he's now grown up, has bought his own place and has a decent job. The other boys in his gang of 4 may not have been so lucky.

[Saintandy666]

This doesn't surprise me at all considering the amount of terrible teachers at my old school.

[Viking Warrior]

You should remember that for every incompetent teacher there are significantly more who are very competent.

The facts that only 18 have been dismissed is the real startling factor that needs to be investigated. It is nigh on impossible to sack or dismiss a teacher its only recent times in Scotland that a local authority sacked a teacher under the disciplinary rules for teaches and that was a long drawn out

process. I could mention cases up here that I am morte than aware of. Side ways moves. moves to other schools or early retirement or it is not spoken about is the general trend of terminating teachers employment. hence the reason why so few have been dismissed.

 

The Teachers rules and regulations in scotland make it very difficult to dismiss someone even when it is gross misconduct! Oh and look at Rule 8.5 of the teachers handbook. Unions defend that to the hilt to give a teacher permanent position even if they have been on a temp contract only as a holding process

 

Right I need to get back to the H4H thread.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

Precisely, the public sector is geared to attract those who's outlook of working life is to plod along and then draw a grossly inflated pension.

 

Shut up Nazi boy

[Johnny Bognor]

I guess if those in the private sector were better at their jobs and therefore better at making a profit then they wouldn't have to work so hard. I have no sympathy for their incompetence.

 

4 points here:

1. I am paying for these incompetent teachers, whilst you are not paying for the incompetent shop keeper

2. The laws of survival of the fittest and natural selection ensure that incompetent shopkeepers will be eliminated by better shop keepers in the long run

3. The incompetence in the teaching profession is not only being tolerated, but being covered up rather than dealth with

4. Not everyone is as intellectually superior as you are and perhaps our shopkeeper friend was held back at school by incompetent teachers???

[Viking Warrior]

Dune . I will not rise to your bait but you have no grasp of reality. Yes there are those that plod along in life whatever the profession but the vast majority of workers are very dedicated and hard working.

It might help if you did some hard days graft for a change.

I work long hours in the public sector and have just taken just over a weeks leave to raise funds for a charity in my own time . I know a lot of teachers and the majirity are extremely hard working trying to teach in a very difficult changing society.

 

Were you the teachers pet at school Dune or just a disruptive so so as you have turned out today?

[angelman]

The teacher is taken through 'Competency Procedures' - he/she is informed of the problem officially, given help/training as necessary, set clear deadlines to improve, monitored and, if the problem is not resolved by then, he/she is sacked. It can take up to a year though and involves unions reps, county council advisers, etc..

 

Question to the teachers, who do (or most of them) have a much harder job than most people give them credit. I do know one or two who jokingly (or not) say that they only work as a teacher for August (ie the holidays). I guess though that these are more primary teachers.

 

Is it fair on the pupils that the incompetent teachers are passed on to some other school (as a teacher was explaining on the news this morning)? If they are incompetent at one school, are they going to be any more competent at another, and if not, isn't this detrimental to pupils? Can they find a different level of achievement at a new school? I know that you said that they get sacked, but 18 in 40 years suggests that they don't.

[View From The Top]

4 points here:

1. I am paying for these incompetent teachers, whilst you are not paying for the incompetent shop keeper

2. The laws of survival of the fittest and natural selection ensure that incompetent shopkeepers will be eliminated by better shop keepers in the long run

3. The incompetence in the teaching profession is not only being tolerated, but being covered up rather than dealth with

4. Not everyone is as intellectually superior as you are and perhaps our shopkeeper friend was held back at school by incompetent teachers???

 

Couldn't give a toss about points 1 & 2.

 

Point 3 raises an interesting point. I would suggest it's far from being tolerated within schools/colleges and staff are happy when it's dealt with. As I mentioned earlier, in my experience, those teachers end up resigning to avoid the competence procedures.

 

Point 4. Then he's a fool for believing education stops at the school gates but also a victim.

[View From The Top]

Question to the teachers, who do (or most of them) have a much harder job than most people give them credit. I do know one or two who jokingly (or not) say that they only work as a teacher for August (ie the holidays). I guess though that these are more primary teachers.

 

Is it fair on the pupils that the incompetent teachers are passed on to some other school (as a teacher was explaining on the news this morning)? If they are incompetent at one school, are they going to be any more competent at another, and if not, isn't this detrimental to pupils? Can they find a different level of achievement at a new school? I know that you said that they get sacked, but 18 in 40 years suggests that they don't.

 

As I keep saying, in my experience teachers who are going through competence issues tend to resign before any formal action is taken.

 

I was mentoring a failing teacher this academic year and when I observed her lesson before her final formal observation I told her it was still poor. Should couldn't see why but resigned to avoid the process going further.

 

That is the outcome in 100% of the cases I've seen in the last 5 years or so.

[70's Mike]

That is absolute ******** Mike, how the hell do you expect that teacher to know the national average of someone at year 10 when they're not 'nationally assessed' but only internally assessed in year 10? The teacher should be able to tell you how he is doing with regards to the rest of the class as their progress should be assessed internally every half term or so (that's the practice in my school anyway) though.

 

Also another factor you are over-looking is that no matter what 'the average' is, depending on the ability of your child in that subject they may never ever achieve that 'average'. If your child is in a bottom set for example, the teacher would be trying desperatly to get those pupils to a C when testing would show that they would be probably be a D/E/F student. I'm afraid you probably go away from parent's evening looking rather stupid.

 

It may come as a suprise to you but not all children are the same! This, by the way, is another example of people who do not understand how the education profession works and make accusations that are unfounded.

 

my sons school estimates what grades they will get at GCSE, if they are all expected to get grade D , then surely the two options are

1) kids are not up to it

or

2) teacher is not up to it

All i was trying to same is for to long it is the kids who are blamed not the teacher

By the way my boy is forecast all A's or A*

[CB Saint]

The teacher is taken through 'Competency Procedures' - he/she is informed of the problem officially, given help/training as necessary, set clear deadlines to improve, monitored and, if the problem is not resolved by then, he/she is sacked. It can take up to a year though and involves unions reps, county council advisers, etc..

 

whilst in the meantime the kids have wasted a year.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

my sons school estimates what grades they will get at GCSE, if they are all expected to get grade D , then surely the two options are

1) kids are not up to it

or

2) teacher is not up to it

All i was trying to same is for to long it is the kids who are blamed not the teacher

By the way my boy is forecast all A's or A*

 

The school would use KS2/KS3 data, teacher assessment and data from something called the Fischer Family Trust which predicts a child's attainment based on where they live etc to make their predictions. Now the FFT predictions are more often than not not worth the paper they're written on (in my experience anyway) so the only accurate data is 'school based data'. All pupils who are predicted a D would be placed into a set 4/5 whereas your son would be in set 1. Each set would then come with it's own 'expectations', i.e. a set 4/5 teacher would be expected to get the majority of their pupils in that set a C grade.

 

The only option is that unforunatly not all children are good at all subjects. For example I was predicted an A* at history but a C in Maths. If a child doesn't achieve their predicted grade (i.e. they achieve lower) that is the point when questions are asked. The pupils have responsibility too obviously as they have to revise, there is only so much we can do...

[norwaysaint]

A bit of perspective.

 

There are about 21,000 schools in England.

There are about 3000 schools in Scotland.

There are about 1800 schools in Wales.

There are about 1000 schools in Northern Ireland.

 

 

That's close to 27,000 schools in the United Kingdom.

This means that these figures, if correct, indicate far less than one incompetent teacher in each school.

 

Of course there are some poor teachers out there, but not a high number in proportion to other professions. This is all a bit alarmist.

[benjii]

FWIW my teachers were a mixed bag.

[Kadeem Hardison]

I can believe that there are so many incompetent teachers out there. I mean, you just have to look at the level of education displayed by the majority of posters on this thread to see that this country is full of thickos. Sack all the teachers and start again, that's what I say.

 

Make dune Chief Headmaster for all schools and he can set the curriculum the way it needs to be, in order to make stand-up citizens like him.

 

He can start with PE: Every day, 5 times a day, school children should be made to exercise their patellas in a quick lunging motion. This should be done until they are able to perform a patellar reflex with having to think about it all.

[badgerx16]

A bit of perspective.

 

There are about 21,000 schools in England.

There are about 3000 schools in Scotland.

There are about 1800 schools in Wales.

There are about 1000 schools in Northern Ireland.

 

 

That's close to 27,000 schools in the United Kingdom.

This means that these figures, if correct, indicate far less than one incompetent teacher in each school.

 

Of course there are some poor teachers out there, but not a high number in proportion to other professions. This is all a bit alarmist.

 

True - but your comments are not 'on message', and so have no relevance

[rpb]

whilst in the meantime the kids have wasted a year.

 

Possibly - I have been involved in taking two teachers through competency procedures. For one the shock was beneficial and she sorted herself out so the children (not kids - they are young goats) had most of the year salvaged. The other one did improve marginally but Ofsted inspectors seemed to find him 'satisfactory' and he carried on - I suspect to do more damage...

[Johnny Bognor]

A bit of perspective.

 

There are about 21,000 schools in England.

There are about 3000 schools in Scotland.

There are about 1800 schools in Wales.

There are about 1000 schools in Northern Ireland.

 

 

That's close to 27,000 schools in the United Kingdom.

This means that these figures, if correct, indicate far less than one incompetent teacher in each school.

 

Of course there are some poor teachers out there, but not a high number in proportion to other professions. This is all a bit alarmist.

 

I agree to some extent as there are approximately 500,000 teacheds in the UK, so 15,000 represents about 3% or 1 in 30, so the problem is small in the grand scheme of things. Having said that, at £30,000 pa, 15,000 incompetent teachers cost £450 million per year or £2.5 billion over a five year period.

[badgerx16]

Possibly -.....The other one did improve marginally but Ofsted inspectors seemed to find him 'satisfactory' and he carried on ...

And that is part of the problem - who makes the assessment ?

 

At my wife's school the OFSTED inspectors have identified a couple of areas 'of concern', but the specialist team brought in to help say that there is nothing wrong.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

I agree to some extent as there are approximately 500,000 teacheds in the UK, so 15,000 represents about 3% or 1 in 30, so the problem is small in the grand scheme of things. Having said that, at £30,000 pa, 15,000 incompetent teachers cost £450 million per year or £2.5 billion over a five year period.

 

Not every teacher would be on 30k, there would be a spread between 21k-30k...but why let facts distort your beliefs eh?

[CB Saint]

Possibly - I have been involved in taking two teachers through competency procedures. For one the shock was beneficial and she sorted herself out so the children (not kids - they are young goats) had most of the year salvaged. The other one did improve marginally but Ofsted inspectors seemed to find him 'satisfactory' and he carried on - I suspect to do more damage...

 

What exactly do you need to to do to be regarded as unsatisfactory by Ofsted - surely the schools take on the teacher should count for something. Or (being cynical) does the ofsted inspector have to fill out a load more forms if they decide that a teacher is unsatisfactory?

[Thedelldays]

I am sure I heard on the radio last night that a grand total of 18 teachers have been sacked in the last 40 years..????

 

 

surely I heard wrong...????

[ribbo]

Trouble is when large companies start to make redundancies, there is a wave of talented people who can get jobs elsewhere who quit. The incompetants often hang on for till the death knowing they will have a harder time get the same money and perks elsewhere. IBM was plagued with this for years.

 

it still is, but IBM does a great number on doing redundancies every few years to clear out the deadwood.

 

the best way to get rid of incompitent staff is to outsource them i find someone else's problem then

[Johnny Bognor]

Not every teacher would be on 30k, there would be a spread between 21k-30k...but why let facts distort your beliefs eh?

 

I understand that when you look at averages, there will be a scale and that the average would be somewhere in between the two (fortunately my maths teacher at school was not incompetent). However, surely you realise that there will not be an even spread across your scale. The vast majority will be at the higher end due to length of service. In addition to this, your scale does not include promotion, London weighting or Employers NI which, when taken into account, pushes the average cost to the taxpayer the £30k barrier.

 

If you google average teachers pay, they all seem to be £30k+ (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7372058.stm), so you could argue I was being conservative with a small 'c'.

 

However, if we forget the symantics of this and take the median of £25.5k from your post (which I believe to be too simplistic and therefore misleading) and add the cost of 11% employers NI (which is a cost believe it or not), we get to a £28k cost per teacher........not far off my initial ball park figure. Therefore the cost to the taxpayer is £2.1 billion over 5 years.....still a lot of money which ever way you cut it / manipulate it. In fact, if we apply your amount to the 40 years, using the £28k, incompetence has cost us near on £17 billion.

 

So in ball park terms, using an estimate based on your numbers, my point still stands as you are just splitting hairs. If you take the widely published figures / government statistics, then you are letting your "facts" distort your misguided beliefs.

Edited 5 July, 2010 by Johnny Bognor

[buctootim]

So in ball park terms, my point stands.

 

But what is your point Johnny? Thats there are some incompetent teachers?- yes everyone accepts that. Is the proportion who are incompetent worse than that amongst builders, lawyers, or insolvency practioners - no I dont think it is. Could we save money by getting rid of them? -no not really because you would need to replace them to teach their pupils, so whilst the pupils would benefit the costs wouldnt change.

[buctootim]

I am sure I heard on the radio last night that a grand total of 18 teachers have been sacked in the last 40 years..????

 

 

surely I heard wrong...????

 

Im absolutely sure that is wrong - more than that number would have been sacked for gross misconduct (theft, being jailed etc) as in any organisation. It is true it is too difficult to sack teachers though, as with many public employees. But many incompetent teachers leave of their own accord. Incompetent treachers often cant interest and control their classes so end up having a miserable time. Its natural selection at its best.

[Whitey Grandad]

I understand that when you look at averages, there will be a scale and that the average would be somewhere in between the two (fortunately my maths teacher at school was not incompetent). However, surely you realise that there will not be an even spread across your scale. The vast majority will be at the higher end due to length of service. In addition to this, your scale does not include promotion, London weighting or Employers NI which, when taken into account, pushes the average cost to the taxpayer the £30k barrier.

All valid points, but in the interest of fairness it should be pointed out that a large part of the employer's NI goes bck to the taxpayer.

[Johnny Bognor]

Im absolutely sure that is wrong - more than that number would have been sacked for gross misconduct (theft, being jailed etc) as in any organisation. It is true it is too difficult to sack teachers though, as with many public employees. But many incompetent teachers leave of their own accord. Incompetent treachers often cant interest and control their classes so end up having a miserable time. Its natural selection at its best.

 

Gross Misconduct is very different to incompetence. Gross Misconduct is often a quicker / easier route to getting rid.

 

But what is your point Johnny? Thats there are some incompetent teachers?- yes everyone accepts that. Is the proportion who are incompetent worse than that amongst builders, lawyers, or insolvency practioners - no I dont think it is. Could we save money by getting rid of them? -no not really because you would need to replace them to teach their pupils, so whilst the pupils would benefit the costs wouldnt change.

 

I suppose I was trying to give some perspective in addition to Norway's point highlighting the number of schools in the UK. As it turns out 1 in 30 teachers are incompetent which is probably no different to many private sector industries, but the difference being is that I am paying my share of this (whereas I can choose where to spend my money in the private sector) and considering how highly educated teachers are (as many of them are only to keen to point out), I suppose it shows that academic achievement on its own counts for jack **** if you lack ability.

 

All valid points, but in the interest of fairness it should be pointed out that a large part of the employer's NI goes bck to the taxpayer.

 

.....after coming from the taxpayer in the first place

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

What exactly do you need to to do to be regarded as unsatisfactory by Ofsted - surely the schools take on the teacher should count for something. Or (being cynical) does the ofsted inspector have to fill out a load more forms if they decide that a teacher is unsatisfactory?

 

To be regarded as unsatisfactory by OFSTED, your lesson would have to awful. If no pupil can show progress by the time the lesson has finished, then that is unsatisfactory. There are many more criteria, but this is the 'gist' of it.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

I suppose I was trying to give some perspective in addition to Norway's point highlighting the number of schools in the UK. As it turns out 1 in 30 teachers are incompetent which is probably no different to many private sector industries, but the difference being is that I am paying my share of this (whereas I can choose where to spend my money in the private sector) and considering how highly educated teachers are (as many of them are only to keen to point out), I suppose it shows that academic achievement on its own counts for jack **** if you lack ability.

 

I'll give you that one, you can be educated to PhD level, but if you can't behaviour manage a class of 30 then you've no hope.

[bridge too far]

I'll give you that one, you can be educated to PhD level, but if you can't behaviour manage a class of 30 then you've no hope.

 

I can remember (too many years ago to admit to ) that teachers in secondary / grammar schools could go into teaching straight from university without doing any teacher training.

 

We had a very clever Latin / Greek teacher who couldn't teach to save her life. We made her life a living hell and she had a nervous breakdown. I'm not proud of this.

 

At least these days teachers are taught HOW to teach and to manage nasty 14 year olds, but obviously, as in all walks of life, some are better than others.

[70's Mike]

The school would use KS2/KS3 data, teacher assessment and data from something called the Fischer Family Trust which predicts a child's attainment based on where they live etc to make their predictions. Now the FFT predictions are more often than not not worth the paper they're written on (in my experience anyway) so the only accurate data is 'school based data'. All pupils who are predicted a D would be placed into a set 4/5 whereas your son would be in set 1. Each set would then come with it's own 'expectations', i.e. a set 4/5 teacher would be expected to get the majority of their pupils in that set a C grade.

 

The only option is that unforunatly not all children are good at all subjects. For example I was predicted an A* at history but a C in Maths. If a child doesn't achieve their predicted grade (i.e. they achieve lower) that is the point when questions are asked. The pupils have responsibility too obviously as they have to revise, there is only so much we can do...

 

Agree that the parents and pupil have a responsibilty what winds me up is this complete lack of acknowledgement from the teaching profession that there may be poor teachers

[rpb]

To be regarded as unsatisfactory by OFSTED, your lesson would have to awful. If no pupil can show progress by the time the lesson has finished, then that is unsatisfactory. There are many more criteria, but this is the 'gist' of it.

 

An OFSTED inspector explained it to me by likening it to food.

 

A satisfactory lesson is meat and two veg - a good lesson is the meat and veg with a pudding - very good has a glass of wine with it - excellent would be Christmas dinner with all the trimmings.

 

An unsatisfactory lesson would be beans on toast - no harm in that every now and again but if you have it all of the time then it will not do you much good. A poor lesson - the toast is burnt and the beans are inedible.

[rpb]

Agree that the parents and pupil have a responsibilty what winds me up is this complete lack of acknowledgement from the teaching profession that there may be poor teachers

 

If that were the case then they wouldn't have Competency Measures in place.

[70's Mike]

If that were the case then they wouldn't have Competency Measures in place.

 

which in practical terms achieve what?

[buctootim]

Gross Misconduct is very different to incompetence. Gross Misconduct is often a quicker / easier route to getting rid.

 

Sure. I was just replying to DDs point that perhaps only 18 teachers have been sacked in 40 years (or something like that).

[Whitey Grandad]

.....after coming from the taxpayer in the first place

Minus a handling fee, of course...

[rpb]

which in practical terms achieve what?

 

You need to ask somebody who has been placed on competency measures - many retire or leave because of it, others are shaken up and improve, a few go into denial and either get sacked or scrape by.

 

I taught for 35 years and, although most of my lessons were fine (according to OFSTED 'Excellent' in some cases), I know that there were some sub-standard ones in there too. Likewise a weak teacher can produce the goods sometimes...

[Patrick Bateman]

Johnny the simple truth is that becoming a teacher and becoming a public sector worker is a life choice in the same way as becoming an Incapacity Benefits slob is a life choice. In essence becoming a teacher/public sector worker is the easy option so it stands to reason that they attract those with little drive or motivation.

 

You total f**king ignoramous.

Do you know how "easy" teaching is?? The majority of the teachers I know are very very driven, have stacks of motivation and have wanted to do it since a very young age. My other half is a teacher as I've said, of a very large Primary school that has just obtained 'Outstanding' by Oftsed. You do not contribute to an 'Outstanding' school with a lack of drive, motivation or skill, especially in the school senior management such as she is.

[dune]

I'm going to revert back to my 'outrage' style posts I rhink as my sensible ones are simply ignored...

 

Perhaps you have trouble controlling your classes and get sworn at because of this immature attitude. Children are very perceptive and if they see their teacher acting in a certain way they may well think it's acceptable for them to replicate this behaviour. Just a thought.

[CB Saint]

Thorpe, as a teacher, how do you deal with the annoying attention seeking pupils who keep making inane comments?

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Thorpe, as a teacher, how do you deal with the annoying attention seeking pupils who keep making inane comments?

 

I wish we had a 'like' button as they do on FB!