was the Terry /Bridge incident anything to do with morale?

[OldNick]

It seems to me that the squads morale changed after the Bridge/Terry saga. Perhaps Fabio should have dropped Terry and the poison that came with him.

Up until then the squad looked happy but strangely the squad was not the same afterwards

[mickn]

I'm not convinced, I think people just have to look at the fact that we are crap at international football. How many good performances have you seen from an England side in the last 10 years and I know the one you will mention.

[david in sweden]

It seems to me that the squads morale changed after the Bridge/Terry saga. Perhaps Fabio should have dropped Terry and the poison that came with him.

Up until then the squad looked happy but strangely the squad was not the same afterwards

 

can't disagree with your basic thought, but in hindsight what would pour central defence (if you can call it that ) have been like without;

Ferdinand ...and Terry ....and King ..? it was pathetic enough yesterday..goodness knows what it might have been like.

Certainly Terry lost a lot more than the captaincy whenthat happened.

[alpine_saint]

I'm not convinced, I think people just have to look at the fact that we are crap at international football. How many good performances have you seen from an England side in the last 10 years and I know the one you will mention.

 

Apart from the fact that we struggled in the group stage against the likes of Algeria and Solvenia who were no better than most of the teams we tonked in quals.

 

At first I gave this theory short shrift, but the fact is that Terry was the outcast of the squad at least once in the last 3 weeks. And england played pretty well before this scandal.

 

I am beginning to think there is some mileage in this, but at least the solution is simple: ensure Terry never pulls on the 3 lions again.

[Topcat]

It seems to me that the squads morale changed after the Bridge/Terry saga. Perhaps Fabio should have dropped Terry and the poison that came with him.

Up until then the squad looked happy but strangely the squad was not the same afterwards

 

The Terry affair was one key issue which brought down the morale. His selfishness removed a stable captain and widened the existing divisions in the team. 9 wins and 1 defeat with 30+ goals for and only 6 conceded was our qualifying record. One of the best records. He needs to be banished from the team for ever. Players that will be too old for 2014 also need to be excluded.

[CB Saint]

No - it down to the fact that we don't have enough genuinely world class players, and the ones we have didn't perform

[EastleighSoulBoy]

No - it down to the fact that we don't have enough genuinely world class players, and the ones we have didn't perform

 

Succinct.

[GenevaSaint]

Said the same thing to a mate before the game. Now. what could have changed from us storming through qualification and then struggling in our 2 warm up games and 4 at the finals.

 

I'm sure there'll be a post mortem, if Fabio thinks it's Terry's fault I don't think he should play for England again. Whether or not the FA buy this is another thing all together.

[GenevaSaint]

You don't need to be world class to beat USA, Algeria or Slovenia. We failed on two of those.

[CB Saint]

What I find strange is that during the qualifiers we were good, then when we get to the pre tournament warm ups and into the world cup proper, the players were below par. My theory on this is that the austere disciplinary regime of Capello's if fine when the players only have to put up with for a week at a time, however they have had two months of it when you consider the training camp and to be fair to the players (putting aside the "they are pros" and "playing for Englandis an honour" arguements) I would be pretty sick of it.

[sandwichsaint]

What I find strange is that during the qualifiers we were good, then when we get to the pre tournament warm ups and into the world cup proper, the players were below par. My theory on this is that the austere disciplinary regime of Capello's if fine when the players only have to put up with for a week at a time, however they have had two months of it when you consider the training camp and to be fair to the players (putting aside the "they are pros" and "playing for Englandis an honour" arguements) I would be pretty sick of it.

 

And therein lies the rub; on top of anything else our players simply lack the intellectual maturity to compete at this level. They appear to fall between two stools, on the one hand they don't have the crazy gang, all-for-one-one-for-all type spirit that perhaps some of the 'smaller' teams, or even Argentina seem to possess. And if you don't have that then you need to have a system based on self-motivation and all the individuals contributing selflessly towards the team, everybody knows their job and everybody does it ... clearly we didn't have this model either.

 

The squad would appear to be cliquey with far too many egos and far too many players too sure of their place in the pecking order and their place in the starting X1. Players who don't/won't/can't play for the team, the obvious examples being Rooney. 'Lamps'. and Gerrard. Team England is just a money-making band wagon for the FA and the players who play the fans for mugs at every turn. I know someone in the media who covers England at the highest level and sees all the training etc and he says that the stand-out player in the 30 players in Austria was Scott Parker (who came off the back of an excellent season at WH), this was also commented on in at least two papers at the time.... was he picked ...was he flip! We wouldn't want a work-a-day ex Charlton Athletic player mixing it with the giants of CL football would we?

 

Bless...diddums..the players were 'bored' were they? Visiting a foreign country, taking part in the biggest event on planet earth, spending time with your mates in complete pampered luxury, hell, even having to go to work somedays for a couple of hours! Nice WAG and family back home, more money in your bank account than you can spend in a lifetime, and the support of a whole country back home who pay their wages and look to their team to give everybody a lift in these difficult times..... sorry we couldn't do it (they haven't actually said 'sorry' by the way)...sorry, we didn't do it ... we got a bit bored ... we don't really like our boss.... but we'll definitely win it next time!

 

Complete and utter tripe ... England will never a world cup till a core of 6-8 players have experience of playing 'abroad' in different leagues and in different 'cultures'.

 

If you want the England World Cup experience in a sentence it would have to be Alan Shearer's pre-match question. 'How many of the Germans would get in our side?' Err, 9 or 10 Alan? And Brazillians, and Argentinians, and Mexicans, and Dutchmen... feck me ... Algeria passed it better than we did!

[John B]

What I find strange is that during the qualifiers we were good, then when we get to the pre tournament warm ups and into the world cup proper, the players were below par. My theory on this is that the austere disciplinary regime of Capello's if fine when the players only have to put up with for a week at a time, however they have had two months of it when you consider the training camp and to be fair to the players (putting aside the "they are pros" and "playing for Englandis an honour" arguements) I would be pretty sick of it.

 

So how do the other countries cope then?

[CB Saint]

So how do the other countries cope then?

 

Not sure - Perhaps as sandwich said it has something to do with intellectual maturity.

 

The regime of the camp is massively important . If the players are unhappy, they won't play well, you only have to look at the French and their bonkers manager for proof of this. I think Fabbio may have overdone the disciplne thing for such a long period of time. Discipline was absolutely necessary but for it to be effective there has to be some fun - our players didn't appear to be enjoying themselves at all.

 

BTW none of this is meant to be apologist for the players who I regard as overpaid spoilt immature scroats, I am just hypothesing on what went wrong between qualifying anf the world cup.

[dubai_phil]

Sex.

 

It almost always comes down to sex.

 

The players were locked away for a month and had what 1 or 2 visits from WAGS? The Terry incident?

 

The players are (allegedly) highly tuned athletes in their (allegedly) prime.

 

We know that more than one of them has "serial relationship issues" and we know all the stories of the Roast Dinners.

 

Anyone who has been in a relationship and then finds themselves going without for a period knows how a pressure valve can build up. No matter how much you are being trained and paid, the mind is an incredibly complex thing and it can decide it wants to push your hormones and you can't do a damned thing about it apart from think about controlling it (or take Bromide).

 

When you add to that the (alleged) austere regime in the WC camp with players not having (allegedly) access to their own computer games and being left with golf, DSTV Satellite or golf every afternoon after training, maybe there is something in this.

 

The damage caused by losing "a (allegedly) nice guy from the squad - Bridgey, and then not being able to let the Testosterone loose when they need to may well be a part of the jigsaw.

 

Say whatever you like about "should be able to cope for that much money" but at the end of the day, the brain working in perfect harmony with a body and a natural talenet is what makes a footballer. If one bit gets messed up, no amount of money, tactics, coaching or sports psychologists can recover that

[Saint Fan CaM]

It think Terry had something to do with the spirit in the camp for certain. Why did he feel the need to conduct a press conference which he subsequently apologised for? Another example of poor discipline or a lack of desire to adopt the Managers regime (whatever that was). IMO Terry should never play for England again - almost tantamount to treason! Henri was summoned in front of the French President to explain the squad's poor show - why shouldn't Terry be held responsible as the original captain and instigator of the start of squad unrest? He should be banned from playing in the Prem too!

 

We hear the arguement that there was a lot of individual talent in the squad but no team. Now I am struggling to think of one player that exhibited a significant show of individual talent to be fair, but for me the responsibility to bond and gel the team with solid tactics etc etc. lies directly and squarely with the manager. Capello has failed significantly in his job and there is clear evidence of that.

[Frank's cousin]

Spirit in the camp.... I am sure the Terry incident had an effect - but I dont think that alone can account for the difference between qualifying and the tournament - many have said its down to boredom ...etc over a two month period... again probably a factor, but look at it this way - we had players complaining they could not have a beer, relax meanwhile the Sun is taking teh **** out of the Germans because they were 'afraid of three Lions' - because the German side had a few hours off or now a couple of days, and got involved in the local culture, took a trip - together - to appreciate where they were - its not about beers or sex, but about doing something different ...

 

There will eb loads of theories, but at the end of the day, IMH cliched O, we just did not ahev teh players or the technique or fitness, when it mattered - during qualifying, everyone was fit, and we were playing sides against who our strengths (pace, tempo and strength) were always going to get results...

 

In the WC the players were (in Beckenbauers opinion) tired after a long season - something now even Capello admits - no wonder he probably did NOT staple that statement to the door, he knew it was true and so did the players!

 

The other Becknebauer statement about England being stupid... well he did not actually say that, he said (baring in mind the Baverian sayings) that it was unfortunate that England had screwed up so that tehy were playing Germany now, which is such a classic game - and yes he may have said it publically as part of some mind games, byut he was probably aware of teh threat England with its squad SHOULD have been - wining teh group would have meant another game or so to get things right as we are notoriously slow starters... woudkl it ahve made a difference? Unlikely, because of the other factors, but I still think we will not progress in tournaments until we take a long hard look at the way the game is coached and the emphasis we put on power and pace ahead of technical and creative skills - IN the prem our playesr do well because they play with foreign creative players - take them away and we lack that viatl component - its what makes the prem exciting - that combination of English power and pace with continental creativity - if we could do that in teh international arena we would win something... but we simply dont have those type of players - because we coach that out of them at a young age, and buy it in in the prem, meaning only the typical English style is brought forward and given opportunity - and teh clubs dont give a flying feck...

[GenevaSaint]

Sex.

 

It almost always comes down to sex.

The players were locked away for a month and had what 1 or 2 visits from WAGS? The Terry incident?

The players are (allegedly) highly tuned athletes in their (allegedly) prime.

We know that more than one of them has "serial relationship issues" and we know all the stories of the Roast Dinners.

Anyone who has been in a relationship and then finds themselves going without for a period knows how a pressure valve can build up. No matter how much you are being trained and paid, the mind is an incredibly complex thing and it can decide it wants to push your hormones and you can't do a damned thing about it apart from think about controlling it (or take Bromide).

When you add to that the (alleged) austere regime in the WC camp with players not having (allegedly) access to their own computer games and being left with golf, DSTV Satellite or golf every afternoon after training, maybe there is something in this.

The damage caused by losing "a (allegedly) nice guy from the squad - Bridgey, and then not being able to let the Testosterone loose when they need to may well be a part of the jigsaw.

 

Say whatever you like about "should be able to cope for that much money" but at the end of the day, the brain working in perfect harmony with a body and a natural talenet is what makes a footballer. If one bit gets messed up, no amount of money, tactics, coaching or sports psychologists can recover that

 

Problem being Phil, last time we performed under par in the world cup, the WAGs were blamed as a distraction. Damned if we do, damned it we don't!

[L1Minus10]

No - in a word.

[OldNick]

Problem being Phil, last time we performed under par in the world cup, the WAGs were blamed as a distraction. Damned if we do, damned it we don't!

 

I think it is the type of women the footballers now have. They are all keen for self publicity and( apart from Rio's wife) that adds its own pressures and jealousy.

The players should be allowed visits from their wives and kids but not as a circus like it was before.

JT was out ofr form from the moment the scandal was exposed. Yes he is brave and if he had not become a footballer I could see him at the front of a NF march (IMO) What he gave us is little compared to what he cost us.

His interview and his self belief of his player power would not be good in the dressing room. I recall the player power after Mourinho left Chelsea and JT no doubt believes he can do the same at international level.

Players are there to play, not to give team/tactical decisions.Weed them out and get a TEAM.

[dubai_phil]

Problem being Phil, last time we performed under par in the world cup, the WAGs were blamed as a distraction. Damned if we do, damned it we don't!

 

There is a difference between the WAG circus of last time and SEX.

 

Managing a relationship in such confined circumstances is a nightmare I am sure, but the point of needs and desires vs how to make myself more famous and rich.

 

It's about a balance. Remember the pictures of the players on safari? That is the sort of experience that should have been shared with families as should a number of "Royal Visit" functions.

 

There should be a way to balance between WAG media culture and strapping them to a bed for when the need arises, other teams manage it, or is it just because "We're English"

[skintsaint]

cant they just knock one out to relieve the tension like the rest of us?

[Whitey Grandad]

The more we hear about the training camp the more it sounds like a prison regime. Now we're even talking about 'conjugal rights' visits.

[dubai_phil]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup-2010/teams/england/7859607/World-Cup-2010-Its-time-to-sack-Fabio-Capello-and-promote-best-of-English-youth.html

 

Sounds a lot more than needing a quick hand shandy under the Duvet

[Gorgiesaint]

Problem being Phil, last time we performed under par in the world cup, the WAGs were blamed as a distraction. Damned if we do, damned it we don't!

 

That is exactly the reason that the players don't have any defence. Under Sven, the whole squad was run without any discipline and its showed. After Sven was replaced with Steve McClaren and he messed up qualifying - most people called for someone to instill some discipline and control the ego's in the squad - enter Fabio. But now that the wrong way to go!

 

I think that Terry will have played his last game for England - he simply isn't quick enough for international football and can't cover for his lack of pace with positional awareness, let alone his off the field antics. He obviously has one of the bigger ego's within the squad so won't be a loss from that perspective.

 

SandwichSaint mentioned earlier that we won't win a world cup until we have a core of 6-8 players playing abroad, and I would agree. This would help the players skill levels compared to the British game and also teach them mentally to prepare properly rather than one training session a day then you can go and do what you want.

[OldNick]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup-2010/teams/england/7859607/World-Cup-2010-Its-time-to-sack-Fabio-Capello-and-promote-best-of-English-youth.html

 

Sounds a lot more than needing a quick hand shandy under the Duvet

A little knee jerk IMO.

Lessons yet again need to be learnt. Can you imagine what would happen if we ditched the top players and played English players from the CCC etc who 'have passion for the shirt etc' Lol

The fans who called for it would go ape as we got mullered by Sardinia or Scotland.

We only have ot recall our experience of 'playing the youth' here. I still believe it was a fair idea and had we had a little more luck and quality, it could have worked. Our away form was very good, it was our inabilty to get that one win at hom,e that made a lot of fans lose belief. In the main most were supportive at the games, to be fair but the wider fan base got very edgy and that caused more pressure.

If Fabio had ditched Terry before the tournament and Lampard on the bench, and played Rooney and Gerrard in their best positions then we may as a team fired.