The Budget VAT Up - What do the LIB DEMS say to that

[John B]

Perhaps there should be a choice on pensions - retire at 65 and get £40wk retire at 70 and get £80wk

 

Dont think that would work as then there would probably be more on Benefit

 

I am an OAP next April so it does not affect me but losing a third of my occupational pension has.

 

Just think people will have to pay more NI or opt out completely

[OldNick]

 

It is just a myth put round by people like you that there is wide spread skiving in the National Health Education and Local Government .

 

In fact you last sentence is one of the most ridiculous I have seen posted on this forum as well as the suggestion that I work in the Public Sector

Not a myth there were figures out last year stating that there are far more sick days taken in the public sector.

As for a ridiculous sentence, it doesn't even make my top top 20. Your posts strike me that you had worked there, it may just be me that thought so

[bridge too far]

Perhaps there should be a choice on pensions - retire at 65 and get £40wk retire at 70 and get £80wk

 

There already is - sort of. If you defer your state pension, when you do draw it at a later age you get more. I don't know how much more though.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

Not a myth there were figures out last year stating that there are far more sick days taken in the public sector.

As for a ridiculous sentence, it doesn't even make my top top 20. Your posts strike me that you had worked there, it may just be me that thought so

 

Have you got a link to these figures regarding sickness?

 

You maybe right that sickness levels are higher in some jobs and there is a high turnaround of staff. This is usually down to high stress levels and demands of the job as well as already limited resources due to cut backs, staff not being replaced, low staff morale etc. A 2 year pay freeze and further cuts in services is not going to help.

 

Most people i know who work as care professionals have very good attendance records due to the nature of the job and the consequences of what happens if they don't go into work. Many of my colleagues like me have not had any time off for years and in nearly 20 years i think ive probably had about a month in total off due to illness in that time.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Sorry, Andy, Nick is right;

 

http://www.managementinpractice.com/default.asp?title=Publicsectorstillaboveprivatesick-dayrates&page=article.display&article.id=21748

 

We all need doctors, fireman, nurses, binman etc it is the others that can go. The outreach cordinators etc. There are more people who work for Defra than are Dairy farmers. It would be great if they all worked as dairy farmers for 6 months to appreciate proper work.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Have you got a link to these figures regarding sickness?

 

Many of my colleagues like me have not had any time off for years and in nearly 20 years i think ive probably had about a month in total off due to illness in that time.

 

I do respect you for that.

[OldNick]

Have you got a link to these figures regarding sickness?

 

You maybe right that sickness levels are higher in some jobs and there is a high turnaround of staff. This is usually down to high stress levels and demands of the job as well as already limited resources due to cut backs, staff not being replaced, low staff morale etc. A 2 year pay freeze and further cuts in services is not going to help.

 

Most people i know who work as care professionals have very good attendance records due to the nature of the job and the consequences of what happens if they don't go into work. Many of my colleagues like me have not had any time off for years and in nearly 20 years i think ive probably had about a month in total off due to illness in that time.

Andy i dont wish to seem as Im tarring everyone with the same brush. There are many magnificent people working in the public services. i think the major source of my gripe is the town halls. As i say a lot have got into bad practices that would not be tolerated in the private sector.

I would prefer that the public sector employees made the savings by becoming more efficient and stop some the the waste. In doing so they would perhaps save a lot of redundancies.

If a client contacts the majority of private companies and says that they are running behind would they stay on, for an hour or so, it is done without thinking, can you confidently say that if you contact the departments in a town hall there is a chance that would happen. in my experience you are lucky to get the phone answered 20 minutes before clocking off.

Andy also may i add, the 'stress level ' thing really does get on my goat, they dont know what stress is. I will exempt people at the frontline dealing with the public in the DHSS offices, social care, hospitals etc, but not in the administration areas.

Edited 26 June, 2010 by OldNick

[bridge too far]

OldNick (), I can tell you that when I was working on PFI hospital building projects, I regularly worked 12 hour days, 6 days a week!

 

And I couldn't take TOIL either! And I wasn't as well paid as my 'opposites' in the private sector team also planning the new building.

[Whitey Grandad]

Talking of town halls: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1289702/Public-sector-inertia-council-office-employees-month-sickies.html

 

It's in the Daily Mail so make of it what you will.

[OldNick]

Talking of town halls: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1289702/Public-sector-inertia-council-office-employees-month-sickies.html

 

It's in the Daily Mail so make of it what you will.

i can promise you (Believe me o not) that i had not read that item. A friend of mine who retired some years ago now, was working at a town hall putting in a computer system and the other staff thought he was a council employee. A few times it was said to him that 'he hadn't been off sick, and so should have a sickie'

He is very disrespectful of these people who he calls 'glorified file carriers' as they just seem to walk the corridors carrying files from office to office but doing nothing. it may be very unfair and i dont want to offend true public servants

[OldNick]

OldNick (), I can tell you that when I was working on PFI hospital building projects, I regularly worked 12 hour days, 6 days a week!

 

And I couldn't take TOIL either! And I wasn't as well paid as my 'opposites' in the private sector team also planning the new building.

I take your word on that BTF, but if you can say hand on heart that you are the norm I'd be very cynical

[bridge too far]

I take your word on that BTF, but if you can say hand on heart that you are the norm I'd be very cynical

 

I have to admit that when I recently took on another role, I was off sick a lot. But do you know why? Because I was working with a team of nurses who worked out in the community with people with chronic chest diseases. Obviously those nurses had built up a resistance to all the horrible bugs they were treating but I hadn't and I seemed to catch everything they brought back to the office!

 

A lot of health workers on the front line fall victim to all sorts of bugs and, of course, if they have anything infectious themselves, they're not allowed to come into work for fear of passing stuff on to patients whose immune systems might already be compromised.

 

I'm not aware, in my 20 odd years' working in the NHS, of inappropriate sick leave being taken. Perhaps I was lucky enough to be working with very dedicated people.

[dune]

I have to admit that when I recently took on another role, I was off sick a lot. But do you know why? Because I was working with a team of nurses who worked out in the community with people with chronic chest diseases. Obviously those nurses had built up a resistance to all the horrible bugs they were treating but I hadn't and I seemed to catch everything they brought back to the office!

 

A lot of health workers on the front line fall victim to all sorts of bugs and, of course, if they have anything infectious themselves, they're not allowed to come into work for fear of passing stuff on to patients whose immune systems might already be compromised.

 

I'm not aware, in my 20 odd years' working in the NHS, of inappropriate sick leave being taken. Perhaps I was lucky enough to be working with very dedicated people.

 

Do you smoke? If so that's the reason why you were always on the sick.

[bridge too far]

Do you smoke? If so that's the reason why you were always on the sick.

 

I wasn't 'always on the sick'. The episode I mentioned above was the first time in over 20 years' service that I had taken sick leave apart from one week in 1991 when I damaged my knee and couldn't walk or drive.

 

But you carry on, dullard.

[LGTL]

Once again, a Government (it's all the public sectors fault, far too many managers, needless waste) manage to pit the Public Sector against the Private Sector, in a game of "whose fault is it??". The last Government did it too, only this time blaming the Private Sector, banking crisis etc. The Irish Governement did it a treat, and it's almost civil war out there now between the two. It is a great way to deflect failings of a Government, that's for sure.

[dune]

I wasn't 'always on the sick'. The episode I mentioned above was the first time in over 20 years' service that I had taken sick leave apart from one week in 1991 when I damaged my knee and couldn't walk or drive.

 

But you carry on, dullard.

 

You really should stop smoking if you are suseptable to chest infections though. Have you tried the new tablets they're dolling out - everyone I know that's been prescribed them has stopped.

[bridge too far]

You really should stop smoking if you are suseptable to chest infections though. Have you tried the new tablets they're dolling out - everyone I know that's been prescribed them has stopped.

 

They also prescribe tablets for your condition. I suggest you put your own house in order first.

[badgerx16]

Talking of town halls: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1289702/Public-sector-inertia-council-office-employees-month-sickies.html

 

It's in the Daily Mail so make of it what you will.

I was off sick for 8 weeks at the start of last year, followed by 2 weeks of half days to get back into the rhythm of things. The day after I rang my boss to say my doctor had signed me off for a while I was given an appointment with our Occupational Health team, who 'vet' all long term sickness absences.

 

The way our sickness absence monitoring works is that you are restricted to a certain total of sick days in a rolling 12 month period, and no more than 3 sickness absences, self certified or doctor's notes, in the same period. If you breach this you are given 'special' interviews and your attendance is strictly monitored for up to 6 months. Most other Local Authorities I know of work similar schemes, so I suspect there is some 'exaggeration' in this story.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

As someone with a lifelong illness of which there is no cure, only medication that reduces symptoms, (Ulcerative Colitis) I honestly felt that should I have chosen a life in the Private sector I would a) Never have been given a job in the first place or b) Not been accomodated for. The Private sector always strikes me as very uncaring with regards to sickness. At least in the public sector I know that should I need an afternoon off for a consultant's appointment or an extended period of time off should I require a stay in hospital I know there will be no backlash about either attendance or 'probation periods' etc. From what I've read on here, I've seen nothing to quash these fears.

[bridge too far]

Oh dear

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jun/27/lib-dems-vat-rise-anger-poll

 

and again

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/27/osborne-budget-cuts-hit-poorest

[dune]

They also prescribe tablets for your condition. I suggest you put your own house in order first.

 

I try to offer you some medical advice and you throw it back in my face. Thanks a lot.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Meanwhile, away from the bleeding heart Lefties that read The Guardian/Observer

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/7856191/Lib-Dems-flounder-as-poll-shows-boost-for-George-Osborne.html

 

 

 

 

Reducing tax credits supported by 80% of people, more medical assessments for Disability Living Allowance (82%), a levy on banks (78%), increasing CGT (68%) and reforming housing benefit (68%).

 

Sixty per cent agreed with cutting spending in all government departments, except for overseas aid and health, by a quarter, and 53% agreed with freezing pay for all public sector workers earning over £21,000 a year.

 

Some 52% said they thought the tough measures were necessary because of the state of the public finances.Overall 47% thought that the measures taken together would improve the state of the economy with only 19% saying they would make it worse.

 

The results are a boost for Mr Osborne, whose personal rating was also up, by six points, taking the number of people who think he's doing a good job from 39% last week to 53% now.

 

 

The coalition as a whole received a big boost in its rating, with the percentage of people thinking it is doing well moving up nine points from 45% last week to 54% now.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Can someone please explain to me this 'bleeding heart' nonsense - Maybe it's an age thing, but I really don't get it!

[badgerx16]

Can someone please explain to me this 'bleeding heart' nonsense - Maybe it's an age thing, but I really don't get it!

Nah, it's a grabbing capitalist bastard thing

[bungle]

They also prescribe tablets for your condition. I suggest you put your own house in order first.

 

I don't think they made tablets which stopped people from being racists?!

[bridge too far]

I don't think they made tablets which stopped people from being racists?!

 

No, I don't think they do. Pity. But I think there is treatment for Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

[Millbrook Saint]

i can promise you (Believe me o not) that i had not read that item. A friend of mine who retired some years ago now, was working at a town hall putting in a computer system and the other staff thought he was a council employee. A few times it was said to him that 'he hadn't been off sick, and so should have a sickie'

He is very disrespectful of these people who he calls 'glorified file carriers' as they just seem to walk the corridors carrying files from office to office but doing nothing. it may be very unfair and i dont want to offend true public servants

 

I used to work for a company who had a contract with the public sector, they were all admin staff in there so no nurses, fireman etc. Towards the end of the year their manager used to say they hadn't used all their sick days up this year so they'd better take them if they didn't want to lose them. It used to discust me the way they used sick days as extra holidays. I actually heard them discussing this quite openly in the office so this isn't second hand information.

[Johnny Bognor]

I used to work for a company who had a contract with the public sector, they were all admin staff in there so no nurses, fireman etc. Towards the end of the year their manager used to say they hadn't used all their sick days up this year so they'd better take them if they didn't want to lose them. It used to discust me the way they used sick days as extra holidays. I actually heard them discussing this quite openly in the office so this isn't second hand information.

 

No names, but I know of a similar situation with a private company and a trade union.

 

In the un-named organisation, anyone having less than 10 days sick a year would not be investigated. The Union actively encouraged people to take their full "entitlement" of 10 days, on the basis that if everyone continually took less than the 10 days, the 10 day limit would be reduced. The comments were also made to the effect that those who didn't take all of their sick, made those who did take more than 10 days look bad. WTF? In my book, this is tantamount to theft and those involved should have been prosecuted. As far as I am aware, this practice still happens today.

 

A lot of companies in the private sector no longer pay sick pay, with exception for the statutory amount and this seems to 'solve' the problem, but unfortunately it is those who are genuinely ill that suffer.

 

One thing I have never understood is why are people more likely to be sick in the summer (when there are more colds and flu in the winter) and why more people are sick when the sun is shining. I am sure if you measured it, the most popular days to be sick are on a friday or on a monday.

 

I think I must be super-human as I have had one day off sick in the last 20+ years.

[buctootim]

I used to work for a company who had a contract with the public sector, they were all admin staff in there so no nurses, fireman etc. Towards the end of the year their manager used to say they hadn't used all their sick days up this year so they'd better take them if they didn't want to lose them. It used to discust me the way they used sick days as extra holidays. I actually heard them discussing this quite openly in the office so this isn't second hand information.

 

In the US many private employers actually give staff a combined sickness and holiday entitlement - so you are entitled to say 5 weeks off a year - whether you use them for sickness of holiday is up to you.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Americans get two weeks holiday a year.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

I think I must be super-human as I have had one day off sick in the last 20+ years.

 

Consider yourself lucky mate! I would LOVE to be able to make that claim, but alas, I can't (see post above). It does **** me off that people who are not sick take the **** out of the system which then makes those of us who are ill feel guilty for something we have no control over. Luckily my illness is covered under the Disabilities Discrimation Act so at least I have a leg to stand on (so to speak) if my bosses ever question my sick days!

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

In the US many private employers actually give staff a combined sickness and holiday entitlement - so you are entitled to say 5 weeks off a year - whether you use them for sickness of holiday is up to you.

 

That is an appalling system. Say you contract Salmonella? That certainly isn't a 'holiday'!!

[CB Saint]

That is an appalling system. Say you contract Salmonella? That certainly isn't a 'holiday'!!

 

Oh it gets better than that. Most states are hire at will, ie neither party has to give any notice - take too much time off and you won't have a job for long.

[Whitey Grandad]

I'm self-employed. There is no such thing as sick-leave for me.

[Johnny Bognor]

Consider yourself lucky mate! I would LOVE to be able to make that claim, but alas, I can't (see post above). It does **** me off that people who are not sick take the **** out of the system which then makes those of us who are ill feel guilty for something we have no control over. Luckily my illness is covered under the Disabilities Discrimation Act so at least I have a leg to stand on (so to speak) if my bosses ever question my sick days!

 

I agree with you on that. Those that aren't genuinely sick actually make life harder for those that are.

[dune]

My company rewards attendance by having 100% attendance awards. At these yearly awards you receive a free crystal glass and a meal with a free bar. That said it could be argued that a week off on full pay (you can self certify for this period) is slightly more appealing.... Given that for the first absense in a year you are payed from day one I do generally force myself to convalese fully in the rare instance that i'm sick.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I agree with you on that. Those that aren't genuinely sick actually make life harder for those that are.

 

This is spot on.

 

I work for a very large Company and I directly manage about 50 staff. The one thing I am completely balck and white about is sick pay. It is a benefit, which the Company dont have to provide and people who abuse it are putting it at risk. I have been very lucky with my health only having had 1 day off in 10 years, other managers I know have sick days at the drop of a hat and wonder why this KPI is too high. We run a rolling year system with various warning ect after 4 periods of sick, leading to fired after 7 (DDA excluded). Any sick and they lose their bonus entittlement for the period concerned. I follow this policy 100%, whereas other Managers let some of their people mask sickness with holiday or careers leave. All my staff, even the ones that think I'm a ****** (that's most of them) would say I am tough but fair. I constantly year after year have the lowest sick rates from my staff.

 

I dont badger people, I dont make them feel uncomfortable about being sick, I just pay them. However if they take the **** (ie suddenly illl during an England game, or seen out and about drunk the night before) or take more time than the Company allow, I hammer them.

 

If staff used this benefit correctly then Companies would be more inclined to keep it, and the geniune cases would be looked after.

[Joensuu]

Just a thought Lord D, but if someone in your staff had, say, a moderate cold, would you prefer them to stay at home, or ask them to come to work? Don't forget, they will be far less productive than usual, and there is an increased chance other employees will be infected.

 

I would have thought many people get 3-4 legitimate minor illnesses each year, which might be best treated from home - why should this trigger and 'warning'?

[bridge too far]

Just a thought Lord D, but if someone in your staff had, say, a moderate cold, would you prefer them to stay at home, or ask them to come to work? Don't forget, they will be far less productive than usual, and there is an increased chance other employees will be infected.

 

I would have thought many people get 3-4 legitimate minor illnesses each year, which might be best treated from home - why should this trigger and 'warning'?

 

Excellent point. And let me add another. The respiratory nurses I worked for HAD to have the swine flu jab last winter. They work in the community with people who have chronic breathing problems, so the risk of the catching even mild flu and passing it onto very vulnerable patients had to be obviated.

 

Most of the nurses were fine after the jab but two of them were quite poorly. Their incapacity was incurred as a result of a requirement of their employment. Should they, too, have been penalised for having time off ill?

[Lord Duckhunter]

Just a thought Lord D, but if someone in your staff had, say, a moderate cold, would you prefer them to stay at home, or ask them to come to work? Don't forget, they will be far less productive than usual, and there is an increased chance other employees will be infected.

 

I would have thought many people get 3-4 legitimate minor illnesses each year, which might be best treated from home - why should this trigger and 'warning'?

 

80% of my staff are on less than 3 absense's with a large amount on none, including myself and my 3 Supervisors.Because I've stuck strictly to the Company policy, there is no debate, no accusations of favouritism and no grey areas.This seems to work and my absence rates are well below average.My wife is a midwife and obviously stays off with the slightest hint of a bug or cold. However, our staff are expected to come in where ever possible (I dont make the policy I just enforce it). It is remarkable how much healthier people become after warnings are issued. There are people who play the system, our trigger points used to be 1 absence higher and some staff's absence rates came down as the trigger did.

 

It's not a question of me bashing the workers, or of taking a bosses view of this. My basic take on it is I am protecting this benefit for the people who are geniune and ensuring it is not withdrawn because the cost is going through the roof.

[angelman]

As someone with a lifelong illness of which there is no cure, only medication that reduces symptoms, (Ulcerative Colitis) I honestly felt that should I have chosen a life in the Private sector I would a) Never have been given a job in the first place or b) Not been accomodated for. The Private sector always strikes me as very uncaring with regards to sickness. At least in the public sector I know that should I need an afternoon off for a consultant's appointment or an extended period of time off should I require a stay in hospital I know there will be no backlash about either attendance or 'probation periods' etc. From what I've read on here, I've seen nothing to quash these fears.

 

TlS - I think that you have a very valid point. But, along with the other thread about IB, I don't think that anyone minds people taking time off when they are sick. It is the scamming that goes on like described in the Daily Mail article that annoys people. What a lot of people don't focus on either, is that we all pay for it in our Council Tax. I have recently moved out of London, and the Council changed from years of Labour to the Tories. Since then we have had a 3% reduction in Council Tax every year, with no noticeable affect on services. In fact they seem to be better, and I do know that the council is rated as one of the best in the country. I am also not saying Tory is better than Labour, but more that Labour had been in charge for such a long time, that this situation seems to have arisen. And where have the 3% annual cuts come from? Efficiency savings. If you compound the 4 years of these cuts and add in inflation, the cut in real terms is somewhere between 20-25% which is ****ing massive. I don't see why this council should be any different from any other, or for that matter any different from any public sector body.

[bridge too far]

Angelman - maybe you don't see the 'effect on services' that you talk about because they are services that you don't need but that others do?

 

Usually the more vulnerable. Most of us are happy if our rubbish is collected and our streets swept. But there's a lot more to council services than just that.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I was refered to the NHS phsyio for my frozen shoulder. Whilst I was there she asked what medication I was on and I told her I was on a NSAID's for Achilles Tendonitis ( a result of still trying to play football at 45). She said" I have some great excersises that will help that". I said "great what are they"?

She then turned round and said my Doc would have to refer me for that, as she was dealing with my shoulder at present. Is that not a waste? I now have to go back to my Doc, get an appointment to go and see the physio that I'm already seeing. Maybe they get paid per referall, maybe it's target driven, but it doesn't make any sense to me.

 

That's just a small example of where common sense could be used to save the tax payer money. There must be millions of similar examples.

[bridge too far]

I was refered to the NHS phsyio for my frozen shoulder. Whilst I was there she asked what medication I was on and I told her I was on a NSAID's for Achilles Tendonitis ( a result of still trying to play football at 45). She said" I have some great excersises that will help that". I said "great what are they"?

She then turned round and said my Doc would have to refer me for that, as she was dealing with my shoulder at present. Is that not a waste? I now have to go back to my Doc, get an appointment to go and see the physio that I'm already seeing. Maybe they get paid per referall, maybe it's target driven, but it doesn't make any sense to me.

 

That's just a small example of where common sense could be used to save the tax payer money. There must be millions of similar examples.

 

I see your point but I guess if you apply some logic to it, it can be easily explained.

 

The physio will have an allotted time of, say, 20 minutes per patient (I don't know what the actual time is - just guessing based on personal experience). So the physio can see 3 patients an hour = 21 patients a day.

 

There will be a waiting list for the physio so if s/he spends an extra session with you then the next person on the waiting list will not get that appointment.

 

And if everyone presenting with one ailment then went on to ask for treatment for a secondary ailment, the waiting list would becoming huge!

[angelman]

Angelman - maybe you don't see the 'effect on services' that you talk about because they are services that you don't need but that others do?

 

Usually the more vulnerable. Most of us are happy if our rubbish is collected and our streets swept. But there's a lot more to council services than just that.

 

True. I do use some more than some but less than others, namely Special Education and the bits that go with it.

 

Interestingly, I checked up on the council site, and first thing that I saw was that they were trying to flog off 9 buildings for £20m so that they could lessen the debt mountain which is at £133m (no - they are not Poopey in disguise). One of the building going to be flogged is the Irish Centre, which promotes Irish culture!!! They also say "The council has taken out more than £42 million worth of waste and bureaucracy over the past three years. The number of bureaucrats has been cut by nearly 600 posts. At the same time the council is prioritising front line services – like cleaner streets, better parks and improved schools – that matter most to residents. The Government’s official watchdog, The Audit Commission, also judges the council to be among the best in Britain." I would agree that the Parks are looking noticeably better.

 

It does sound like Poopey. £133m debt and getting rid of 600 staff.....

[bridge too far]

Angelman - are you talking about your County Council or your District Council? You mention education - that's part of the County remit. But you actually pay your Council Tax to the District Council and it is not, generally, responsible for education.

 

Unless you live in a Unitary Council area? To me it seems sensible to merge County and District Councils. There would huge economies of scale.

 

But that would go against the current government's idea of community powers and the devolving thereof.

[angelman]

Hammersmith & Fulham

[bridge too far]

Hammersmith & Fulham

 

Oh OK - I don't know how London 'works' these days. It's a long time since I worked for local government in London.

 

Is each borough now responsible for education? You would have thought it would make economic sense to have the equivalent of the old ILEA to manage education London wide.

[angelman]

No idea. H&F certainly sort my boy's SEN out, so yes to that part of education, but mainstream might be different.

[OldNick]

Just a thought Lord D, but if someone in your staff had, say, a moderate cold, would you prefer them to stay at home, or ask them to come to work? Don't forget, they will be far less productive than usual, and there is an increased chance other employees will be infected.

 

I would have thought many people get 3-4 legitimate minor illnesses each year, which might be best treated from home - why should this trigger and 'warning'?

You see, this thought process is why the public sector is riddled with this 'sickie' culture. A sniffle or cold is not an excuse to stay at home. Sickness /food poisoning is but dont tell me that the public sector get a bigger proportion of that than the private sector.

There is no excuse for the public sector to have more sick days than the private sector. period.

I suspect there is not a week that we all wake up and think, i dont feel like working this week/today. If you make it easy then, the will to get up wanes and so productivity is lost. The frontline services that BTF talks about are robbed of time and so the vulnerable are effected by this as well.

I go back to my original point, the workers have it in their own hands, up their game and there is less pain in redundancies as the savings are made elsewhere by being more efficient and resources are not wasted