Saints fans jailed

[Saintandy666]

but if the police saw you waiting outside a police station for someone to come out knowing full well there was a chance there might be a violent incident, but you hadn't actually commited it yet, what would they do? Would they give you a talking too, move you out of the area and then release the individual you might clash with ensuring you are well away, or would they let him out, let you two get on with it and stand around filming it? No one is saying people are not responsible for their own action, but the police are responsible for preventing it. Like it or not, some people will look for a fight at football when we play our neighbours, thats life, doesn't make it right, but that is how it is.

 

If you are out looking for a fight, you are in the wrong. 'That's how it is' is no justification. It's the people's fault!

[OldNick]

Unless a police officer said 'Oi, mate... go punch that guy over there would ya', it's clearly not their fault. How well the police performed is irrelevant in the larger picture of who committed the crime and so who is ultimately responsible. Yes, the police could perhaps have done more to sustain order, but the people should not have set off for a fight in the first place. It's the peoples fault. If I walked past a bunch of Pompey fans I certainly wouldn't start chucking stuff at them.

i think at the time there was surprise that the Pompey fans were allowed out when they were. Considering past histroy it may have been best they were kept in, much like other occasions in the past.

The police have a difficult job, but we had intelligence on here telling us that the police were going to make an example of the fans. Is that justice? Im not sure, i put up an example of a case where a person was seriously assaulted and got only a 2 year suspended sentence. To me the balance is not correct. Yes they were idiots, with passions running high and the away fans allowed out at the same time things happened. No doubt Freeborn would not have been damaged had the away fans been left in the ground. Im sure they would have been happy to celebrate the result for an hour in the ground while all fans were cleared away.

[StuRomseySaint]

Unless a police officer said 'Oi, mate... go punch that guy over there would ya', it's clearly not their fault. How well the police performed is irrelevant in the larger picture of who committed the crime and so who is ultimately responsible. Yes, the police could perhaps have done more to sustain order, but the people should not have set off for a fight in the first place. It's the peoples fault. If I walked past a bunch of Pompey fans I certainly wouldn't start chucking stuff at them.

 

Disagree. IF it was not a pre-arranged sting, trying to get coax some of the 'risk' supporters into getting involved in disorder in the hope of locking some of them up then it was completely incompetant policing.

 

Right or wrong it is pretty obvious to even the most stupid people that if a large crowd of Saints fans and a large crowd of P*mpey fans come into contact with each other there will be disorder. It is the polices job to prevent disorder, and they could have done so simply by keeping the skates in after the game, as happens in every single other 'hostile' derby in the country, without exception.

 

So it was either a sting, or the person who made the decision to let the skates out at the same time should be made to justify their decision.

[Saintandy666]

Disagree. IF it was not a pre-arranged sting, trying to get coax some of the 'risk' supporters into getting involved in disorder in the hope of locking some of them up then it was completely incompetant policing.

 

Right or wrong it is pretty obvious to even the most stupid people that if a large crowd of Saints fans and a large crowd of P*mpey fans come into contact with each other there will be disorder. It is the polices job to prevent disorder, and they could have done so simply by keeping the skates in after the game, as happens in every single other 'hostile' derby in the country, without exception.

 

So it was either a sting, or the person who made the decision to let the skates out at the same time should be made to justify their decision.

 

Disagree. People should be able to not have an urge to fight the next person. Especially over a football rivalry.

[Stoozer]

I agree with the Judge. It's about time our courts got tougher in my opinion.

[StuRomseySaint]

Disagree. People should be able to not have an urge to fight the next person.

 

OK. So if you are attacked in the street, with a police officer standing across the road, you will be happy for him to sit back filming it... after all, it's not his fault and nothing to do with him.

 

Police are there to prevent crime as well as catch criminals.

 

They could have prevented this 'crime' ... they chose not to.

[Dimond Geezer]

When you speeding then you should be locked up and throw away the key... by driving at 40mph instead of 30mph you are doing so in the full knowledge you are 3 times more likely to kill someone if they walk out in front of you.

 

When was I speeding? But yes if the law said that if I got caught doing 40 in a 30 I should be locked up & the key thrown away, then so be it if that was the maximum punishment I could receive & that is what I got sentenced to, then I couldn't really gripe.

 

Oh, and I don't condone their actions, they deserved to get nicked for being stupid and throwing missiles in front of the police if nothing else... I just don't see how throwing a coin which doesn't hit anyone can carry a 12 month prison sentance,

 

I was going to apologise for mis-representing you, but the I re-read this bit. So it's only wrong if you get caught, and throwing a coin into a crowd of people should only be punished if it actually strikes someone, lets just hope that whack doesn't cause any damage then.

 

 

 

and how stamping on someones head in a different 'less public' football match deserves a suspended sentance and ticking off?

 

It doesn't, it would appear that particular little thug got lucky, but you're right on one thing - far to inconsistent.

[Sour Mash]

Errrr what...? I'm totally lost now. So 12 football fans got 13 years between them for 'throwing a coin' which caused k's of £'s worth of damage....! This I have to see - is it on youtube anywhere...???

 

Yet another bod on here who posts on the matter without having an understanding of the concepts involved, such as what the definition of violent disorder is.

[Saintandy666]

OK. So if you are attacked in the street, with a police officer standing across the road, you will be happy for him to sit back filming it... after all, it's not his fault and nothing to do with him.

 

Police are there to prevent crime as well as catch criminals.

 

They could have prevented this 'crime' ... they chose not to.

 

For a start, don't put crime in '' as if to pretend this isn't a crime(also seems like you are suggesting an attack on someone in the street isn't really a crime?). Secondly, yes, you expect the police officer to do something(and to be fair it sounds like they were trying their best to hold fans back). However, it is still the attackers fault for doing it, not the police officers fault and the **** of attacker obviously deserves some sort of punishment.

[StuRomseySaint]

When was I speeding? But yes if the law said that if I got caught doing 40 in a 30 I should be locked up & the key thrown away, then so be it if that was the maximum punishment I could receive & that is what I got sentenced to, then I couldn't really gripe.

 

 

 

I was going to apologise for mis-representing you, but the I re-read this bit. So it's only wrong if you get caught, and throwing a coin into a crowd of people should only be punished if it actually strikes someone, lets just hope that whack doesn't cause any damage then.

 

 

 

 

 

It doesn't, it would appear that particular little thug got lucky, but you're right on one thing - far to inconsistent.

 

You could be doing 40 and cause no harm and the penalty? Nothing happens.

You could be doing 40 and kill a child. Death by Dangerous driving and a few years in prison.

 

Away from football you could punch someone and just mark/bruise them and end up with a nominal fine, if anything.

You could punch them just as hard, they fall back and smash their head on the kerb. You are charged with manslaughter and serve years in prison.

 

You throw a coin outside a football stadium and it doesn't hit someone. You go to jail.

You throw a coin outside a football stadium and it does hit someone. You go to jail.

 

You throw a coin in the street at someone and it doesn't hit them. £80 fine maximum, more than likely told to go away.

You throw a coin in the street at someone and it does hit them. Maybe a fine, possibly even a little bit of community service if the injury was serious enough.

 

As I said, i am not condoning it, and they needed punishing... possibly the person who caused the ONE injury deserved prison, not the others though. No way, never.

Edited 21 June, 2010 by StuRomseySaint

[Junction 9]

Harsh sentance or not, it's good to see that those who involve themselves in incidents like this do actually get idenitifed and punished.

Maybe now anyone thinking of posturing in front of Bournemouth fans next season might just think twice and walk home. Big maybe though.

[Micky]

Yet another bod on here who posts on the matter without having an understanding of the concepts involved, such as what the definition of violent disorder is.

 

I have no understanding of any of it mate - I'm simply applying a common sence approach to the story. I don't know any of the facts. It just strikes me that 30,000 people left the ground safely and sensibly, a bit like I do every game I go to.

 

And then there were the others - errr the ones who didn't make it, because the police ****ed it all up, caught up in the heat of the moment, somebody threw a coin and some poor guy had 30 grands worth of damage done to his business. Nobodies fault though - nobody shouldering any responsibility - it wasn't me guv - honest...!

 

Nope - I simply cannot grasp the concept that you talk about - as I say, after nearly 40 years of going to matches, and being involved in some of the worst civilian riot situations during that time - I still don't get the concept that nobody was responsible. Please feel free - enlighten me.

[OldNick]

34 arrests at the summer solstice last night, some for disorder, 1 for carrying an offensive weapon and the rest mainly drug offences!!!!!!!

[saintjay77]

Yet another bod on here who posts on the matter without having an understanding of the concepts involved, such as what the definition of violent disorder is.

 

The definition of Violent Disorder was posted some way back and TBH it fits in with what was going on after the match. It also carrys a maximum of 5 years inside so it seems they got off fairly lightly for that charge.

 

If the courts are being even stronger than they previously have on football related problems and continue this way for all future problems then good on them. Previous tactics have reduced the violence associated with football to the point where most games are worth taking the kids along. If they can stamp out football related violence all together then football should be all the more enjoyable.

 

No doubt once that has happened they will clamp down on another form of trouble. Hooliganism at table tenis tourny's is on borrowed time!!!

[Kaiser Soze]

LOL at the wannabe Green Streeters up in arms at criminals being caught & punished, once again lead by chief thug apologist SRS.

 

I read the first page, but can't be bothered to trawl through the rest, it's all been said before.

 

They may only have chucked a few hub-caps or coins, what would have happened if one of those hub-caps had struck someone on the head & caused brain damage, or even killed them, what would have happened if one of those coins had struck someone in eye and caused them to go blind?

 

Good riddance to 'em. I couldn't give a toss whether they were or were not known hoolies before this it doesn't make them any less innocent. I haven't checked, but I don't believe Peter Sutcliff was known to th OB before slicing & dicing prostitutes in Yorkshire. Maybe they'll think about it the consequences before doing it a second time.

 

Mongs the lot of 'em, as are those on here defending them.

 

Deluded P R I C K

[aintforever]

Anyone who thinks these sentences are fair is an idiot.

[thefunkygibbons]

Saints fans causing violence

 

Not in my name

[NorthamSteve]

I am not defending them, they deserved to get punished, however every sentance has to fit the crime.

 

It's wrong... completely wrong.

 

It can't be completely wrong if you're not defending them, it has to be at the very least partially right.

 

 

Anyway, can I just be made understand your position please?

 

Hypothetically speaking; 2 gangs of people have a fight and one person is very seriously injured. You cannot know who did what to who but you know you have all the people who were all in the fight. Would you let them all off, or lock them all up on the evidence that you have?

[NorthamSteve]

Anyone who thinks these sentences are fair is an idiot.

 

Fair and deserved are 2 different things, these were deserved.

[Psycrow]

You could be doing 40 and cause no harm and the penalty? Nothing happens.

You could be doing 40 and kill a child. Death by Dangerous driving and a few years in prison.

There is simply no way in hell you'd go to jail for Death by dangerous driving if all you were doing was 40 in a 30 zone. I don't care if you killed the queen.

 

Away from football you could punch someone and just mark/bruise them and end up with a nominal fine, if anything.

You could punch them just as hard, they fall back and smash their head on the kerb. You are charged with manslaughter and serve years in prison.

Equally, you wouldn't get done for manslaughter for this. Manslaughter is reserved for someone kicking a guy to death and saying "I didn't mean to kill him, it was just a good honest fight guv"

 

You throw a coin outside a football stadium and it doesn't hit someone. You go to jail.

You throw a coin outside a football stadium and it does hit someone. You go to jail.

 

You throw a coin in the street at someone and it doesn't hit them. £80 fine maximum, more than likely told to go away.

You throw a coin in the street at someone and it does hit them. Maybe a fine, possibly even a little bit of community service if the injury was serious enough.

I really can't see how you don't see the different between throwing a coin at an individual on a street or through it into a crowd. Whether you hit someone or not, the consequences of throwing it at a crowd, especially at a football match where tensions are high, are much more serious. Its called incitement. You could cause a riot by and a lot more damage by throwing anything at a crowd than you would at an individual on a street. That's what the authorities are trying to stop and why football related violence is punished more "regular" violence as you might call it.

 

And don't bring back up your example about the Yeovil fan. The failure of the justice system in that instance to dish out a proper punishment to the Saints fan who committed the offence does not justify any other criminal in any other crime getting off lightly.

[StuRomseySaint]

It can't be completely wrong if you're not defending them, it has to be at the very least partially right.

 

 

Anyway, can I just be made understand your position please?

 

Hypothetically speaking; 2 gangs of people have a fight and one person is very seriously injured. You cannot know who did what to who but you know you have all the people who were all in the fight. Would you let them all off, or lock them all up on the evidence that you have?

 

Nobody was in a fight and nobody was seriously injured. So it's a bit of a hypothetical situation.

 

Missiles where exchanged between 2 groups of fans. You pick out as many people throwing the missiles and charge them and sentance them accordingly. 12 months in jail for throwing a missile that did not injure anyone is not sentancing them accordingly. I am not saying they are innocent, just that 12 months inside and their livelyhoods ruined for throwing a coin or plastic hubcap is completely over the top, and I can't believe people cannot see that.

[trousers]

Anyone who thinks these sentences are fair is an idiot.

 

I'm an idiot

[trousers]

Drop a penny off the top of the Eifel Tower and it'll kill a human if it hits them on the head.

 

I can't see the cents in that

[Saint Lindford]

Absolutely no sympathy at all for them. In fact the 6 year football banning order is to lenient, should have been life.

[Psycrow]

I can't see the cents in that

 

That one's for free folks, but he's here all week. Try the Beef.

[saint boggy]

have only read the first page of this thread, BUT....quick question for all those who think the sentences are pretty harsh.......(which, to a degree,i do)

 

Knowing now that the Old Bill are taking an almightilly firm hand on football related violence and disorder, how many of you will be avoiding trouble like the proverbial plague now,or will you still persist in "giving in large", despite the punishments handed out today? (only those who would NORMALLY look for some "action",obviously)

[Sour Mash]

I have no understanding of any of it mate - I'm simply applying a common sence approach to the story. I don't know any of the facts. It just strikes me that 30,000 people left the ground safely and sensibly, a bit like I do every game I go to.

 

And then there were the others - errr the ones who didn't make it, because the police ****ed it all up, caught up in the heat of the moment, somebody threw a coin and some poor guy had 30 grands worth of damage done to his business. Nobodies fault though - nobody shouldering any responsibility - it wasn't me guv - honest...!

 

Nope - I simply cannot grasp the concept that you talk about - as I say, after nearly 40 years of going to matches, and being involved in some of the worst civilian riot situations during that time - I still don't get the concept that nobody was responsible. Please feel free - enlighten me.

 

You sum up the vast majority of people on these forums, not allowing the fact that you have "no understanding of any of it" and "I don't know any of the facts" stand in the way of having your chance to spout forrth your bizarre rhetoric. Boring day in the office? Nothing on tv at home? I'll jump on saintsweb and waffle away on there.

 

Where is ANYONE saying that "no-one is responsible"? Or have you got the wrong thread?

Edited 21 June, 2010 by Sour Mash

[Dimond Geezer]

Deluded P R I C K

 

Obviously another thug, attempting, to justify violence, who has the inability to string a coherent sentence together.

 

Well done you also managed to find the caps lock button.

 

If you can manage it, can you please explain how I’m deluded, (if you don’t mind I’ll ignore the capitalised insult & let the mods deal with it if they should so wish).

[Sour Mash]

The definition of Violent Disorder was posted some way back and TBH it fits in with what was going on after the match. It also carrys a maximum of 5 years inside so it seems they got off fairly lightly for that charge.

 

If the courts are being even stronger than they previously have on football related problems and continue this way for all future problems then good on them. Previous tactics have reduced the violence associated with football to the point where most games are worth taking the kids along. If they can stamp out football related violence all together then football should be all the more enjoyable.

 

No doubt once that has happened they will clamp down on another form of trouble. Hooliganism at table tenis tourny's is on borrowed time!!!

 

Jesus wept, I gave up on you a long time ago.

[Thedelldays]

bet they wished they just went home like I did that day....funnily enough, I am not in jail today..nor am I going to jail..

[Sour Mash]

Anyone who thinks that blokes who act stupidly in the heat of the moment, get carried away and shake a fence aggressively (some of those were convicted just of that and for not of even throwing anything), with no previous convictions, good employment records, mortgage and kids etc, deserve to be sent to prison for a year, then they are a bit odd to say the least. Sad that we've got such snivelling, curtain twitching, oddballs amongst our support.

[saintjay77]

Jesus wept, I gave up on you a long time ago.

 

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/violent_disorder/

 

Seems they had every right to be charged with Violent disorder or do you think differently?

 

Or was it something else you disagreed with?

[saintjay77]

Anyone who thinks that blokes who act stupidly in the heat of the moment, get carried away and shake a fence aggressively (some of those were convicted just of that and for not of even throwing anything), with no previous convictions, good employment records, mortgage and kids etc, deserve to be sent to prison for a year, then they are a bit odd to say the least. Sad that we've got such snivelling, curtain twitching, oddballs amongst our support.

 

When you have finished with the police report and the evidence that was produced in court for the sentancing to take place maybe you would like to pass it all around so we can all agree with you?

[Nexstar]

I cannot see how this thread warrants 4 pages - they've been sent to jail for a year, will be out in under half that and nothing will change their sentence.

[mcjwills]

When you drive over the speed limit it's not a premeditated attempt to kill a child, but when vandals throw coins or basically engage in thuggery it's a pre meditated act to cause harm to others. That said both incidents are breaking the law.

 

But the laws says if you have ever had to attend a Driver Awareness Course , if you can be proved to be doing 1mph over the speed limit (You do not get a 10% allowance in this) and you kill someone by hitting and running them down, you will be prosecuted using Death by Dangerous driving, if you are found to be below the speed limit you will get counciling to help you get over your grief.

 

All this bleeding hearts going on about it was only a coin, are the same people that go on about "it was only a slap". I know some body that ended up inside for manslaughter, and his crime was only giving somebody a slap, the trouble was the person hit something on the way down and never got up. His grieving family did not see it as just being given a slap, they saw it as Murder

[100%Red&White]

The Police went to a lot of trouble putting up a big metal barrier to keep rival fans apart coming out of the Northam.

 

They then went and let rival fans out at the same time on the other side knowing a particular 'element' would be exiting from the Itchen North right into the path of the blue-few's 'element'.

 

Looks a strange and silly decision that would surely lead to trouble. Oh................

[Turkish]

95% of the people on here haven't got a clue what they are talking about.

[thesaint sfc]

Seems ridiculous that you go to prison for this sort of thing, but you hear of pedos walking free..... Stupid country. Not that I condone what they've done, but our system is f*cked.

[trousers]

Football ticket prices would be cheaper if the police weren't required to deal with human beings who can't act civilly in the first place.

 

I'm not happy having to pay this hooligan tax...

[thesaint sfc]

Football ticket prices would be cheaper if the police weren't required to deal with human beings who can't act civilly in the first place

 

Cost of living would be a lot cheaper if the police weren't required to deal with human beings who can't act civilly in the first place.

 

I like seeing harsh sentences - but this sentence doesn't fit to the crime when you look at the crimes that some people commit and they walk free.

[trousers]

Cost of living would be a lot cheaper if the police weren't required to deal with human beings who can't act civilly in the first place.

 

I like seeing harsh sentences - but this sentence doesn't fit to the crime when you look at the crimes that some people commit and they walk free.

 

Yep, that too

[Sour Mash]

Football ticket prices would be cheaper if the police weren't required to deal with human beings who can't act civilly in the first place.

 

I'm not happy having to pay this hooligan tax...

 

Our taxes would be a lot lower if everyone in society could be trusted to behave. Unfortunately human nature doesn't always work like that, as much as we may like it to.

[trousers]

95% of the people on here haven't got a clue what they are talking about.

 

Nearer 98% of us I would venture. I rarely post anything intelligent

[RedArmy]

SIX year ban and a year inside for a ******* stone is an absolute joke.

[trousers]

Our taxes would be a lot lower if everyone in society could be trusted to behave. Unfortunately human nature doesn't always work like that, as much as we may like it to.

 

A devil's advocate might argue that taxes might actually be higher if there was no crime - just think how many jobs rely on the existence of misbehavior. If all those jobs were to go then the tax take would drop per head thus forcing up the average.

 

Or something.

[mcjwills]

There is simply no way in hell you'd go to jail for Death by dangerous driving if all you were doing was 40 in a 30 zone. I don't care if you killed the queen.

Wrong go and attend a Driver awareness course and you'll find out differently

 

Equally, you wouldn't get done for manslaughter for this. Manslaughter is reserved for someone kicking a guy to death and saying "I didn't mean to kill him, it was just a good honest fight guv"

Wrong again I knew somebody that sentenced to time for exactly that just hitting someone, one man's manslaughter is another man's murder, depends what side of the court room you sit.

 

I really can't see how you don't see the different between throwing a coin at an individual on a street or through it into a crowd. Whether you hit someone or not, the consequences of throwing it at a crowd, especially at a football match where tensions are high, are much more serious. Its called incitement. You could cause a riot by and a lot more damage by throwing anything at a crowd than you would at an individual on a street. That's what the authorities are trying to stop and why football related violence is punished more "regular" violence as you might call it.

Everyone who went to that game knew the risks that went with causing trouble at the game, crime & Time rhyme, the sentence might not be right but they took the risk.

And don't bring back up your example about the Yeovil fan. The failure of the justice system in that instance to dish out a proper punishment to the Saints fan who committed the offence does not justify any other criminal in any other crime getting off lightly.

Definitely got off too lightly

 

My 2p worth (Not thrown)

[dune]

Football ticket prices would be cheaper if the police weren't required to deal with human beings who can't act civilly in the first place.

 

I'm not happy having to pay this hooligan tax...

 

Good point! It's bad enough with the ticket tax and the membership tax without having to pay a yobs tax aswell.

[trousers]

Good point! It's bad enough with the ticket tax and the membership tax without having to pay a yobs tax aswell.

 

Nice shot. Put me down for an assist... ;-)

[Jonnyboy]

I agree causing £30000 of damage does not seem insignificant

 

So £30,000 damage (covered by insurance ) = 13 years

So Pompeys £100 million = ? years for Storrie?

[StuRomseySaint]

It is no surprise that most of the names on here saying "good, they got what they deserved" etc, are also the idiots who have been saying " tough luck if you can't afford to pay for a season ticket up front etc, the club done right getting rid of them, get a loan blah blah"

 

Seriously, have a word with yourselves, if you really need to come on a forum to justify your existance and tell a bunch of nobodys what a law-abiding and wealthy citizen you are then maybe you should get out more?