hamster Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 I really can't see how the police could be accused of causing the trouble for sinister reasons otherwise why have that fence erected? Over the top custodials perhaps but if they had really wanted to create a situation then they would have let the northam exiting the stadium get involved but they didn't, they actually made it nigh on impossible with the exception of people choosing to run all the way around the stadium by which time they would quite likely be too cream crackered to piuck up a chair let alone throw one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 I really can't see how the police could be accused of causing the trouble for sinister reasons otherwise why have that fence erected? Over the top custodials perhaps but if they had really wanted to create a situation then they would have let the northam exiting the stadium get involved but they didn't, they actually made it nigh on impossible with the exception of people choosing to run all the way around the stadium by which time they would quite likely be too cream crackered to piuck up a chair let alone throw one. So why didn't they keep them in for 30 mins after the game?..........it's not ******* rocket science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1576 Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 I really can't see how the police could be accused of causing the trouble for sinister reasons otherwise why have that fence erected? Over the top custodials perhaps but if they had really wanted to create a situation then they would have let the northam exiting the stadium get involved but they didn't, they actually made it nigh on impossible with the exception of people choosing to run all the way around the stadium by which time they would quite likely be too cream crackered to piuck up a chair let alone throw one. I would imagine that most of the people they would have been interested in arresting do not sit in the Northam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 That's a shame, but then I suppose that it's indicative of people like you. Sorry, please explain. Do we know each other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 But the point is, which you and many others do not seem to understand, the sentences do not reflect the crimes in todays society. Surely, though, the point is that this doesn't matter when there's a broader societal point to be made. That enables the authorities to be inconsistent and even unfair in their efforts to make that point. Every so often the pressure to punish severely - as a clear deterrent - will crop up in a new area, and apparently harsh punishments will be meted out. Tough on those found guilty but - after all these years of enforcement - they can't claim that they weren't aware of the risks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 Sorry, please explain. Do we know each other? Not at all, my opinion is just based on reading your posts................don't mean to be personal, but in general, I disagree with most things that you comment on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamster Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 So why didn't they keep them in for 30 mins after the game?..........it's not ******* rocket science. Harvey, when your view is so intrenched you are liable to not be able to discuss alternatives. You are correct that it is not rocket surgery but what it is, is a subject where there are many different opinions, I have mine and you have yours...please try to accept that otherwise I will have to come around to your gaff and throw my lighter in your garden. ;-) From where I was stood quite a number in the northam end were quite 'up for it' and have in the past proven just how easy it can be to get on the pitch. Crikey we even havea couple of little kids, now infamous, for getting onto more football league pitches than Antony Pulis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint boggy Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 i can't believe this bloody thread is STILL going!! FFS, get over it......people went to prison for behaving like neanderthals, others will think twice before copying their antics now........ simple as that......the desired effect has been reached. harsh on the people that were sent down, but meh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 Surely, though, the point is that this doesn't matter when there's a broader societal point to be made. That enables the authorities to be inconsistent and even unfair in their efforts to make that point. Every so often the pressure to punish severely - as a clear deterrent - will crop up in a new area, and apparently harsh punishments will be meted out. Tough on those found guilty but - after all these years of enforcement - they can't claim that they weren't aware of the risks. But it's nothing!!!!!!!! compared to todays warped society........ok, give them a hefty fine if you want to be 'seen' to be doing the right thing.......but FFS, what these people did was nothing compared to what some people do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 i can't believe this bloody thread is STILL going!! FFS, get over it......people went to prison for behaving like neanderthals, others will think twice before copying their antics now........ simple as that......the desired effect has been reached. harsh on the people that were sent down, but meh! Don't comment on it then!.....................and btw, it's more than harsh, it's bloody ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 But it's nothing!!!!!!!! compared to todays warped society........ok, give them a hefty fine if you want to be 'seen' to be doing the right thing.......but FFS, what these people did was nothing compared to what some people do. But when you think about it, the harsh approach is working, isn't it? After all, here we are, still discussing it 560 posts after it was first raised. Now there's even more reason for people to realize that even minor public order offences at games will not be tolerated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint boggy Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 (edited) Don't comment on it then!.....................and btw, it's more than harsh, it's bloody ridiculous. not if it stops 200 youngsters thinking these d1cks are the 'sh1t' and joining in with it next time.......... Edited 23 June, 2010 by saint boggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 But when you think about it, the harsh approach is working, isn't it? After all, here we are, still discussing it 560 posts after it was first raised. Now there's even more reason for people to realize that even minor public order offences at games will not be tolerated. So in that context I assume we're gonna start castrating peadophiles tomorrow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 Not at all, my opinion is just based on reading your posts................don't mean to be personal, but in general, I disagree with most things that you comment on. Oh right, thanks. So your opinion of me is formed totally on what you have read here, on an internet forum. Your opinion is relevant and valid. Those people who don't care about the sentences handed down to these hooligans, how do you think thier opinions were formed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 So in that context I assume we're gonna start castrating peadophiles tomorrow? If it's allowed under the pen(is)al code, I'm all for it. And if it's not, I'm all for changing the penal code. You might be on a loser with that example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 not if it stops 200 youngsters thinking these d1cks are the 'sh1t' and joining in with it next time.......... THAT IS NOT THE POINT.......................arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Steve Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 Did the lads who just got banged up learn from past mistakes and the sentances the Maze Hill lads got? No. There will always be dancing at football games like this and all rational thoughts by some go out the window. Fact is someone gives someone a slap on a saturday night in a pub they get a telling off, but if that slap gets classed as football related the punishment is x100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint boggy Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 THAT IS NOT THE POINT.......................arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how is that NOT the point????????? surely a potential punishment is only there as a means of a deterrent.....ie, you do 'this' and you could get 'x' amount of years etc! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 If it's allowed under the pen(is)al code, I'm all for it. And if it's not, I'm all for changing the penal code. You might be on a loser with that example. You're right..............I'm lost ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 how is that NOT the point????????? surely a potential punishment is only there as a means of a deterrent.....ie, you do 'this' and you could get 'x' amount of years etc! Ok, I'll try and make this simple........... Purse snatcher..........community service Charity box theif..........community service DSS fraud.....communty discharge, coz she's got a couple of kids (boo hoo) do you see where I'm coming from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint boggy Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 Ok, I'll try and make this simple........... Purse snatcher..........community service Charity box theif..........community service DSS fraud.....communty discharge, coz she's got a couple of kids (boo hoo) do you see where I'm coming from? no not really.....do enlighten me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 no not really.....do enlighten me Things that are reported in the 'Echo' every day........all the loosers are given a chance for twenty third time (coz they've got issues)............Jeremy Kyle fodder. And decent fellas who just 'shook' a fence are being treated like Ronnie Biggs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint boggy Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 (edited) Things that are reported in the 'Echo' every day........all the loosers are given a chance for twenty third time (coz they've got issues)............Jeremy Kyle fodder. And decent fellas who just 'shook' a fence are being treated like Ronnie Biggs. you SURE about that?...next time you walk past a group of 50-60 'men' all baying for blood, lets see if your opinion changes, shall we ....(and i think Ronnie Biggs got a slightly longer sentence than 14 months , don't you!) Edited 23 June, 2010 by saint boggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 Harvey, when your view is so intrenched you are liable to not be able to discuss alternatives. You are correct that it is not rocket surgery but what it is, is a subject where there are many different opinions, I have mine and you have yours...please try to accept that otherwise I will have to come around to your gaff and throw my lighter in your garden. ;-) From where I was stood quite a number in the northam end were quite 'up for it' and have in the past proven just how easy it can be to get on the pitch. Crikey we even havea couple of little kids, now infamous, for getting onto more football league pitches than Antony Pulis. Sorry Hamster, only just seen your post.............I know that I'm entrenched, but I've been bought up to know right from wrong. But I've also been bought up to know that punishment should fit the crime. They were out of order and should be punished, but at the end of the day, it was nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 ....(and i think Ronnie Biggs got a slightly longer sentence than 14 months , don't you!) As I recall it, he served 36 years with Brazilian football on his doorstep. That'll teach him not to rob trains! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint boggy Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 As I recall it, he served 36 years with Brazilian football on his doorstep. That'll teach him not to rob trains! hence why i did not say "he served more than 14 months"LOL but, for the record, he spent 2 years inside before he escaped and then 8 years when he returned to the UK...... considerably MORE than 14 months! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 you SURE about that?...next time you walk past a group of 50-60 'men' all baying for blood, lets see if your opinion changes, shall we ....(and i think Ronnie Biggs got a slightly longer sentence than 14 months , don't you!) I don't really think that they were 'baying for blood' St Boggy......is that what you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamster Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 Sorry Hamster, only just seen your post.............I know that I'm entrenched, but I've been bought up to know right from wrong. But I've also been bought up to know that punishment should fit the crime. They were out of order and should be punished, but at the end of the day, it was nothing. If I had been born to Irish parents in Belfast I would quite possibly be lying in a grave for believing that I 'knew' what was right. We all need to remember to put 'iMho' at the end of our posts maybe? I am of the opinion that had these people taken a different route home, we would not even be having this conversation had they done that. Having said that, the sentences ARE iMho harsh, I am agreeing with your argument. I wish that I had kept my opinion to myself, sorry. I shall not be posting any more of my opinions on this thread....though I may well study it's progress (lol). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint boggy Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 I don't really think that they were 'baying for blood' St Boggy......is that what you think? really?? so the guy who said to the copper that he "wants to go toe-to-toe with them and wants to die" was acting calmly and rationally,was he???...........yeh, right!!...he sounds like a right "decent fella" to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamster Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 As I recall it, he served 36 years with Brazilian football on his doorstep. That'll teach him not to rob trains! One finl word to offer a bit of a breather to anyone who's ****ing interested (added to add weight to my seriousness and ergo making me right). The scene of the Great Train Robbery is only yards from a pub called The Globe on the Grand Union Canal, near to Milton Keynes, wher you can sit outside supping a lovely warm pint of 'Matron's Knickers' pondering life, the universe and football. It is rumoured that the (then) landlord retired very soon aftrewards, rumoured to be because (at just 48) he had had a little windfall. Was he involved? Anyway, you can sit there looking at the very spot that it all took place. It's pretty boring tbh but it is the one thing on this thread that can be said to be a FACT. FACT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 really?? so the guy who said to the copper that he "wants to go toe-to-toe with them and wants to die" was acting calmly and rationally,was he???...........yeh, right!!...he sounds like a right "decent fella" to me! Well he was quite obviously an imbecile and I don't factor him in to my arguement.......infact he quite possibly destroys it :-).............my point still stands that the punishment should fit the crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westofshannonsaint Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 I am supprised to see this thread is still going, but do people realise that England is bidding to Host the world cup in 2018? Football related violence is a huge mark against you in the hope of wining that bet and it has to be shown that you are stamping it out/have it under control. It has been said that the cops should have done more to prevent the crime, but imo football violence is on the rise & has been glamorised, the cops needed convictions to stop it getting out of hand (perhaps someone can advise if this is being repeated across the UK). from what i've read the cops had the situation pretty much under control -no one hurt/fans kept a god distance apart. They stood back and took pictures of people they fancied making examples of & people aged 28, 34, 46 (old enough to know better) seems like a good place to start. Sentances like this will make people think twice before they throw a hub cap or coin at a child/woman/oap/anyone wearing colouts anywhere near a football stadium/wearing colours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 really?? so the guy who said to the copper that he "wants to go toe-to-toe with them and wants to die" was acting calmly and rationally,was he???...........yeh, right!!...he sounds like a right "decent fella" to me! Look, I'm guessing that you're probably a mum........if one of your sons (or daughters) got the crap kicked out of them by 3 or 4 blokes, I assume that you'd expect that they'd recieve quite a hefty sentence for their henious crime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westofshannonsaint Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 If I had been born to Irish parents in Belfast I would quite possibly be lying in a grave for believing that I 'knew' what was right... Sorry Hamster that is WAYYY off topic & I know it was probably tongue in cheek but is pretty offensive. there is quite a difference in the right and wrongs of the republican "struggle" and local football rivalry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 I am supprised to see this thread is still going, but do people realise that England is bidding to Host the world cup in 2018? Football related violence is a huge mark against you in the hope of wining that bet and it has to be shown that you are stamping it out/have it under control. It has been said that the cops should have done more to prevent the crime, but imo football violence is on the rise & has been glamorised, the cops needed convictions to stop it getting out of hand (perhaps someone can advise if this is being repeated across the UK). from what i've read the cops had the situation pretty much under control -no one hurt/fans kept a god distance apart. They stood back and took pictures of people they fancied making examples of & people aged 28, 34, 46 (old enough to know better) seems like a good place to start. Sentances like this will make people think twice before they throw a hub cap or coin at a child/woman/oap/anyone wearing colouts anywhere near a football stadium/wearing colours. Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!, so lets start doing it for the shoplifters, granny muggers, doorstep scumbags and druggies............that is the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint boggy Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 Well he was quite obviously an imbecile and I don't factor him in to my arguement.......infact he quite possibly destroys it :-).............my point still stands that the punishment should fit the crime. but if the punishment disuades others from copying the crime in the future,then surely that can only be a good thing.....the trouble in this country is that we are so used to the courts handing out namby-pamby sentences/punishments that when they do come down hard on certain elements of society, we are shocked (sometimes a good shock, sometimes not-so-good). i stand by my theory though that this will send shockwaves through ,at least, the younger element of troublemakers, who, up to now, it has all been fun n games for.....intimidate a few people as you walk to a game,get in a few people's faces, give someone a little slap etc,.......push a fence??........ can we PLEASE end this f**kin' thread now.......it's just tedious...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 but if the punishment disuades others from copying the crime in the future,then surely that can only be a good thing.....the trouble in this country is that we are so used to the courts handing out namby-pamby sentences/punishments that when they do come down hard on certain elements of society, we are shocked (sometimes a good shock, sometimes not-so-good). i stand by my theory though that this will send shockwaves through ,at least, the younger element of troublemakers, who, up to now, it has all been fun n games for.....intimidate a few people as you walk to a game,get in a few people's faces, give someone a little slap etc,.......push a fence??........ can we PLEASE end this f**kin' thread now.......it's just tedious...... That's fine............but do the same for more serious crimes. Tbh, granny bashers and charity box thieves I'd have shot on the spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint boggy Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 Look, I'm guessing that you're probably a mum........if one of your sons (or daughters) got the crap kicked out of them by 3 or 4 blokes, I assume that you'd expect that they'd recieve quite a hefty sentence for their henious crime? Harvey, don't be a ****!! and you're damn right i would........and that is EXACTLY what is going to happen to those convicted of that cyclists assualt, and rightly so.....violence ,of ANY sort, should not be tolerated and should be punished HEAVILY..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 Harvey, don't be a ****!! and you're damn right i would........and that is EXACTLY what is going to happen to those convicted of that cyclists assualt, and rightly so.....violence ,of ANY sort, should not be tolerated and should be punished HEAVILY..... So how would you feel if they got a 6 month suspended sentence compared to someone who got 12 months in prison for shaking a fence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamster Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 Sorry Hamster that is WAYYY off topic & I know it was probably tongue in cheek but is pretty offensive. there is quite a difference in the right and wrongs of the republican "struggle" and local football rivalry. I can't leave it there westofshannonsaint. I feel like a right pillock now, I apologise. That came out all wrong, I shall try to explain why I said that. I have always had an opinion on 'the troubles' personally. Many is the time that I could not sleep because I wanted my 'Dad to come home. I never however quite got the Irish/IRA thing, Irish people were treated abysmally by my (wtf?) government. They have done bad things throughout history and will continue to do so. And unfortunately it means that they also write the history books. We have never fought a war that was 'right', only wars that we think were 'right'. I was genuinely trying to say that one or two people on here should take a breather and calm down. This debate is not a war it is just a friendly discussion. When I am at meetings that are going this way, we always have a fag break, now where's my fags. A terrible example given earlier, but not meant to cause offence to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint boggy Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 That's fine............but do the same for more serious crimes. Tbh, granny bashers and charity box thieves I'd have shot on the spot. but what you fail to realise is that most of these youngsters are following in the footsteps of the 'older' football thug. They think they are cool, worldly, people to 'look up to' , to be revered.....how many granny bashers have other granny bashers to look up to , to egg them on,do they have meetings in the pub to arrange the next bashing event??...NO.they are 'stand alone' criminals....if someone is sent down for 2 years for hitting an OAP ,is there shockwaves throughout the whole bashing fraternity?????NO.......hence ,no real deterrent ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint boggy Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 So how would you feel if they got a 6 month suspended sentence compared to someone who got 12 months in prison for shaking a fence? they're presumably being charged with attempted murder....its highly improbable that they'lll get a suspended sentence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 but what you fail to realise is that most of these youngsters are following in the footsteps of the 'older' football thug. They think they are cool, worldly, people to 'look up to' , to be revered.....how many granny bashers have other granny bashers to look up to , to egg them on,do they have meetings in the pub to arrange the next bashing event??...NO.they are 'stand alone' criminals....if someone is sent down for 2 years for hitting an OAP ,is there shockwaves throughout the whole bashing fraternity?????NO.......hence ,no real deterrent ..... Crikey, I'd like to argue with you there, but what your saying is quite.............mmmmmmm' liberal (frightening). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 they're presumably being charged with attempted murder....its highly improbable that they'lll get a suspended sentence Would you put money on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint boggy Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 Would you put money on that? yep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 23 June, 2010 Share Posted 23 June, 2010 yep You must be minted. Don't forget, one of these lads has got ADAH, had a bad upbringing and been on Trisha (all agedley)...........I'm crying as I type.........are you sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westofshannonsaint Posted 24 June, 2010 Share Posted 24 June, 2010 Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!, so lets start doing it for the shoplifters, granny muggers, doorstep scumbags and druggies............that is the point. In Irish courts (& I presume the UK is similar) examples are often made, a judge will often say "an example needs to be made and people need to realise that x/y/z behaviour is unnaceptable, admittedly the stance may be as a result of a political agenda be it a war on drugs or on football hooligans. this is a "zero policy" stance against football violence but it's nothing new really. Also (again in Ireland) many of the above sentences are reduced upon appeal, which raises the question; How long are these people likely to serve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westofshannonsaint Posted 24 June, 2010 Share Posted 24 June, 2010 I can't leave it there westofshannonsaint. I feel like a right pillock now, I apologise. That came out all wrong It was just exaggeration to prove a point, no need to apologise/feel like a pillock I often do the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey Posted 24 June, 2010 Share Posted 24 June, 2010 In Irish courts (& I presume the UK is similar) examples are often made, a judge will often say "an example needs to be made and people need to realise that x/y/z behaviour is unnaceptable, admittedly the stance may be as a result of a political agenda be it a war on drugs or on football hooligans. this is a "zero policy" stance against football violence but it's nothing new really. Also (again in Ireland) many of the above sentences are reduced upon appeal, which raises the question; How long are these people likely to serve? I appreciate your contribution my friend, but It's all so political now..............they were all stiched up on that day and the police(stazi) won't be held to account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamster Posted 24 June, 2010 Share Posted 24 June, 2010 It was just exaggeration to prove a point, no need to apologise/feel like a pillock I often do the same I'm gonna use that one next time I'm hauled before the boss. I sometimes go through phases of apologising, I even say sorry when I'm not really sorry. Hope you aren't a ABE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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