Saints fans jailed

[Thedelldays]

why?

 

have seen it plenty of times down here in sunny plymouth for a start..and plymouth have had a hoolie element over the years more so than saints..

[dune]

3/ Their sentances were way over the top- again using 12 months for shouting aggresively as an stand out example

 

I was talking to a policeman today who helps to police games at the Walkers Stadium and told him of the sentences and the rough details of what happened and like me he welcomed them. Like me he firmly believes that custodials such as these will serve as a detterent.

[Turkish]

have seen it plenty of times down here in sunny plymouth for a start..and plymouth have had a hoolie element over the years more so than saints..

 

I agree mate, but if there is nothing to attack then no attack can take place. There is a better chance of confrontation being avoided if there is no one to confront.

[dune]

Don't forget Dune is an expert on feral yobs as he goes on National Front marches.

 

How you've got the gaul to preach given your attitude towards the disabled is very rich.

[Thedelldays]

I agree mate, but if there is nothing to attack then no attack can take place. There is a better chance of confrontation being avoided if there is no one to confront.

 

 

maybe..but it is about personal reponsibility.....they erected a fuking metal wall ffs

[Turkish]

I was talking to a policeman today who helps to police games at the Walkers Stadium and told him of the sentences and the rough details of what happened and like me he welcomed them. Like me he firmly believes that custodials such as these will serve as a detterent.

 

What else would you expect a copper to say? I am still waiting to hear what you said to the police when they stopped you mingling with Pompey fans in 2004. Come on, whats the hold up?

[View From The Top]

maybe..but it is about personal reponsibility.....they erected a fuking metal wall ffs

 

I don't think that's the debate Jamie. The debate is whether the time actually fits the crime and IF the crimes in themselves could have been curtailed with better policing.

[dune]

Nothing of the sort Dune. So come on then, did you express your outrage to the boys in blue when you weren't allowed to leave Fratton Park in 2004? Or where you glad they kept you in the ground and cleared the Pomey fans away?

 

I wasn't bothered what they did because I was on the supporters coach.

[Turkish]

I wasn't bothered what they did because I was on the supporters coach.

 

But you were held in the ground for over an hour Dune, was it not raining that day? The terrace was open back then, no where to cover from the rain. You must have been furious to have been made to stand in the rain all that time and not allowed to mingle with the Pompey fans outside? Really they should have let you out and face the baying mob shouldn't they, stood back and let they get on with it, rather than keeping you in Fratton Park when they knew full well there was a good chance of serious disorder outside the ground.

[dune]

I agree mate, but if there is nothing to attack then no attack can take place. There is a better chance of confrontation being avoided if there is no one to confront.

 

And if the delinquents can't find some rival yobs, but see some innocent rival fans, they'll attack them. That is why it was sensible to allow the Pompey fans out at the same time as us.

[dune]

But you were held in the ground for over an hour Dune, was it not raining that day? The terrace was open back then, no where to cover from the rain. You must have been furious to have been made to stand in the rain all that time and not allowed to mingle with the Pompey fans outside? Really they should have let you out and face the baying mob shouldn't they, stood back and let they get on with it, rather than keeping you in Fratton Park when they knew full well there was a good chance of serious disorder outside the ground.

 

I can't remember if it was raining to be honest. In fact both the away games blur into one. I know for one of them it hailed.

[70's Mike]

And if the delinquents can't find some rival yobs, but see some innocent rival fans, they'll attack them. That is why it was sensible to allow the Pompey fans out at the same time as us.

 

You had a good case until that point

[BallBoy]

I could not be bothered to read all of the comments on this thread but the first couple of pages gave a pretty good idea of the general attitude. I rather suspect that if these sentences had been handed out to Pompey fans for the same offences then some of these comments would have been totally different. Pompey fans would probably have deserved such harsh sentences because........well they are Pompey fans.

 

I personally think that some of these sentences were probably on the harsh side but none of these people had to be there and none of them had to get involved. They could have walked away. The fact is that they wanted to be there and they wanted to make trouble and they knew that other innocent fans would be terrorised.

 

It is difficult to feel too much sympathy.

[CanadaSaint]

The point is Mr Ponty ( I will call you Mr, because you are a Moderator ) , it is pretty obvious by simply keeping them in, as happens with every single other hostile game in the country, that trouble could have been prevented.

 

Do you agree or not?

 

The police where either stupid, or it was a sting ( which also went wrong ).

 

Which one do you think it was?

 

I'm shocked and somewhat disgusted that this angle has not been pursued more relentlessly by the public or the media.

 

This isn't about some relatively minor offenders (this time, anyway) being harshly treated; as far as I'm concerned, every clear signal that this kind of behaviour won't be tolerated is welcome. It makes the message to the idiots very simple - stay the hell away from trouble.

 

What it IS about, in my view, is the fact that police irresponsibility could have endangered innocents. A lot of normal people, including kids, could have been hurt by the ridiculous decision to release the fans simultaneously, and someone needs to account for it.

[Turkish]

I can't remember if it was raining to be honest. In fact both the away games blur into one. I know for one of them it hailed.

 

I dont see how they could have really as one was a 0-1 defeat played out in awful conditions and the other was probably the most gutless performance by a saints side in my lifetime. Regardless of the team and the weather though, you must have been furious at being kept in for an hour or more, surely? But that aside, bearing in mind what happened after the 2004 game though, do you think keeping the saints fans in after the game was right or wrong? Should they have been kept in the ground, or should they have been let out into the riot that was going on in the streets outside?

[Turkish]

And if the delinquents can't find some rival yobs, but see some innocent rival fans, they'll attack them. That is why it was sensible to allow the Pompey fans out at the same time as us.

 

Sensible to let them out so rival innocent fans can be attacked? That is very senisble. Much more sensible than keeping innocents and 'yobs' in the ground until there is no one in the area to attack them.

[aintforever]

Releasing the fans at the same time was dumb. It's standard practice for away fans to be locked in at hostile grounds.

 

My guess is that it's something to do with the traffic because Northam rd is always closed after the game so I expect they want to get the away coaches back to the park and ride as quickly as possible.

[dune]

I dont see how they could have really as one was a 0-1 defeat played out in awful conditions and the other was probably the most gutless performance by a saints side in my lifetime. Regardless of the team and the weather though, you must have been furious at being kept in for an hour or more, surely? But that aside, bearing in mind what happened after the 2004 game though, do you think keeping the saints fans in after the game was right or wrong? Should they have been kept in the ground, or should they have been let out into the riot that was going on in the streets outside?

 

I believe the police took the right course of action at Portsmouth and the right course of action at Southampton. Both situations were different because of the locations. At St Marys the police sucessfully created exit routes for both sets of fans, at Fratton this was clearly not a logistical possibility.

[Turkish]

I believe the police took the right course of action at Portsmouth and the right course of action at Southampton. Both situations were different because of the locations. At St Marys the police sucessfully created exit routes for both sets of fans, at Fratton this was clearly not a logistical possibility.

 

Its nothing to do with exit routes though is it Dune. You said earlier why should yobs dictate when people leave matches. Regardless of the way they would leave the ground you said you think fans should be mingle together. In your view, it was not right to let them mingle together in 2004 when the police knew there could be trouble and there was, however, it was right to let them do it in 2010, when the police knew there could be trouble, and there was.

[View From The Top]

Its nothing to do with exit routes though is it Dune. You said earlier why should yobs dictate when people leave matches. Regardless of the way they would leave the ground you said you think fans should be mingle together. In your view, it was not right to let them mingle together in 2004 when the police knew there could be trouble and there was, however, it was right to let them do it in 2010, when the police knew there could be trouble, and there was.

 

He's not too bright, on a wind up and clearly wasn't at Fratton Park.

[dune]

Its nothing to do with exit routes though is it Dune. You said earlier why should yobs dictate when people leave matches. Regardless of the way they would leave the ground you said you think fans should be mingle together. In your view, it was not right to let them mingle together in 2004 when the police knew there could be trouble and there was, however, it was right to let them do it in 2010, when the police knew there could be trouble, and there was.

 

It has everything to do with safe exit routes. Those leaving the Itchen North (where most of the yobs were located) had to exit the stadium to the right and to reach the walkway bridge they had to walk all the way around the stadium. This meant that the Porstmouth fans had a clear exit route and a head start over the yobs. Compare that to Goldsmiths Avenue and due to the layout of Fratton park this route was required by both home and away fans.

[dune]

He's not too bright, on a wind up and clearly wasn't at Fratton Park.

 

I most certainly was at fratton park for both games.

[Turkish]

He's not too bright, on a wind up and clearly wasn't at Fratton Park.

 

and probably never been to a derby in his life despite claims not have missed one since 1996 and probably hardly ever goes to games, no one that goes regularly can be that clueless.

[Turkish]

It has everything to do with safe exit routes. Those leaving the Itchen North (where most of the yobs were located) had to exit the stadium to the right and to reach the walkway bridge they had to walk all the way around the stadium. This meant that the Porstmouth fans had a clear exit route and a head start over the yobs. Compare that to Goldsmiths Avenue and due to the layout of Fratton park this route was required by both home and away fans.

 

well no it doesn't because according to you, 'Yobs' should not dicatate when people leave football grounds. They should be allowed to mingle with other fans freely, although not it would seem in 2004. I dont see why 'yobs' should dictate at when people leave Fratton Park but they shouldn't dictate when they leave St Marys, regardless of exit routes, having head starts etc. By having exit routes in place sure this is allowing 'yobs' to dictate? And obviously with regard to your comment about where most of the 'yobs' sit, you know this do you? Where do you sit?

[dune]

and probably never been to a derby in his life despite claims not have missed one since 1996.

 

Well for the second game at fratton park (the relegation season) i moaned enough about the club charging me £1 to park at St Marys.

[saintjay77]

Releasing the fans at the same time was dumb. It's standard practice for away fans to be locked in at hostile grounds.

 

My guess is that it's something to do with the traffic because Northam rd is always closed after the game so I expect they want to get the away coaches back to the park and ride as quickly as possible.

 

Is it also standard practice to errect a friggin big fence/wall to keep rival fans apart?

 

Could it be that the OB thought they put the fence up so they could get the fans the hell outa there ASAP rather than anyone paying extra for the OB to hang around for the next hour getting rid of saints fans so the Poopy lot could get home saftly?

 

It would have probably been better to stagger the exits of fans but then there would have been no need for the fence.

[dune]

well no it doesn't because according to you, 'Yobs' should not dicatate when people leave football grounds. They should be allowed to mingle with other fans freely, although not it would seem in 2004. I dont see why 'yobs' should dictate at when people leave Fratton Park but they shouldn't dictate when they leave St Marys, regardless of exit routes, having head starts etc. By having exit routes in place sure this is allowing 'yobs' to dictate? And obviously with regard to your comment about where most of the 'yobs' sit, you know this do you? Where do you sit?

 

Yobs shouldn't dictate when normal fans leave a stadium, but at Fratton Park due to the exit routes and the fact that the yobs weren't sufficiently worried about custodial sentences, they did dictate. With the sentences given to the 12 Saints "fans" it sends out a message to the yobs and we shall see if it makes a difference.

[Turkish]

Yobs shouldn't dictate when normal fans leave a stadium, but at Fratton Park due to the exit routes and the fact that the yobs weren't sufficiently worried about custodial sentences, they did dictate. With the sentences given to the 12 Saints "fans" it sends out a message to the yobs and we shall see if it makes a difference.

 

That is an arguement for the future. At that time, at that place Feb 2010, you think Pompey fans should have been let out as you put it, 'to blend in with the dispersing crowd' also if saints fans looking for a ruck cant find any pompey 'yobs' then they can attack innocent fans, they were your words. At the time of 2004 no custodials had been handed out to Pompey fans, that came in the months after the game. The OB had no idea what might happen, so with no custodials to be aware of for the 'yobs' to worry about just the police to make the call on when to let the saints fans out they chose to keep them in, which in your view was the right decision. Which i agree with. So why, was it the right decison to let them out at the same time at St Marys? same circumstances.

[View From The Top]

That is an arguement for the future. At that time, at that place Feb 2010, you think Pompey fans should have been let out as you put it, 'to blend in with the dispersing crowd' also if saints fans looking for a ruck cant find any pompey 'yobs' then they can attack innocent fans, they were your words. At the time of 2004 no custodials had been handed out to Pompey fans, that came in the months after the game. The OB had no idea what might happen, so with no custodials to be aware of for the 'yobs' to worry about just the police to make the call on when to let the saints fans out they chose to keep them in, which in your view was the right decision. Which i agree with. So why, was it the right decison to let them out at the same time at St Marys? same circumstances.

 

Using his logic regarding sentencing acting as a deterrent the raft of custodials handed out to the skates after our 0-1 loss should have meant that we should have been let straight out after the later drubbing as we would have all rubbed along merrily.

 

I wonder why then we were kept if for ages? I wonder whether it could be to do with Dune talking out of his @rse again.

[saintjay77]

Using his logic regarding sentencing acting as a deterrent the raft of custodials handed out to the skates after our 0-1 loss should have meant that we should have been let straight out after the later drubbing as we would have all rubbed along merrily.

 

I wonder why then we were kept if for ages? I wonder whether it could be to do with Dune talking out of his @rse again.

 

Did they errect a frigging big fence/wall at Nottarf Krap?

[Turkish]

Did they errect a frigging big fence/wall at Nottarf Krap?

 

That doesn't matter, Dune thinks we should all mingle together merrily, holding hands and swapping shirts and scarves. Putting up fences is allowing yobs to dictate.

[View From The Top]

Did they errect a frigging big fence/wall at Nottarf Krap?

 

According to our resident nazi sympathiser's logic a wall was not necessary at pompey as the 30 odd jail sentences dished out after the 1-0 meant that we could have and should have all been let out at the same time as those sentences would have meant that at skates wouldn't want to get involved in any trouble.

 

Us scummers would have just melted into the crowd and there would have been not an iota of trouble, according to Stanley, oops, I mean Dune.

[dune]

That doesn't matter, Dune thinks we should all mingle together merrily, holding hands and swapping shirts and scarves. Putting up fences is allowing yobs to dictate.

 

Correct. You seem to be under the impression that football yobs are a part of football culture. In my old mans day him and his brothers used to watch Saints and Pompey.

[dune]

According to our resident nazi sympathiser's logic a wall was not necessary at pompey as the 30 odd jail sentences dished out after the 1-0 meant that we could have and should have all been let out at the same time as those sentences would have meant that at skates wouldn't want to get involved in any trouble.

 

Us scummers would have just melted into the crowd and there would have been not an iota of trouble, according to Stanley, oops, I mean Dune.

 

No. A wall or any other barricade was not possible at fratton park due to the exit locations and geography of the area.

[saintjay77]

That doesn't matter, Dune thinks we should all mingle together merrily, holding hands and swapping shirts and scarves. Putting up fences is allowing yobs to dictate.

 

Im not trying to get involved in the arguement between you and Dune as I think that has side tracked from the original debate.

 

The wall does matter in that the OB probably would have kept the poopy lot in had there not been the fence.

 

Will be interesting to see if they put a fence up next time (if there is a next time) we play poopy at SMS. I would have thought they think it was a success although blocking off the garage might be an added extra next time?

[Turkish]

Correct. You seem to be under the impression that football yobs are a part of football culture. In my old mans day him and his brothers used to watch Saints and Pompey.

 

i Dont think they are part of the culture but every club has an element, like it or not. Convincing yourself that rival fans will walk home together from local derbies as best mates doens't mean it is going to go away.

[Turkish]

Im not trying to get involved in the arguement between you and Dune as I think that has side tracked from the original debate.

 

The wall does matter in that the OB probably would have kept the poopy lot in had there not been the fence.

 

Will be interesting to see if they put a fence up next time (if there is a next time) we play poopy at SMS. I would have thought they think it was a success although blocking off the garage might be an added extra next time?

 

In that case thye'd also need to block off the side roads by the industral estates as fans were running up there to get at Pompey fans too. Or alternatively just use a bit of common sense and keep them in the ground until the areas directly surrounding SMS were clear.

[saintjay77]

In that case thye'd also need to block off the side roads by the industral estates as fans were running up there to get at Pompey fans too. Or alternatively just use a bit of common sense and keep them in the ground until the areas directly surrounding SMS were clear.

 

If they want to employ the fence strategy again they will no doubt have to improve it. Or like you say, scrap it and keep the blue few in.

 

It seems a bit daft that this element only really attaches its self to football though and surly in this day and age people need to grow up a bit and not behave like thugs to support a team. If harsh sentancing means rival crowds can mix more fluedly in years to come then we will probably look back and say its a good thing. If however the sentancing carrys on changing with the weather we will probably still be cursing the OB and the fact they dont have a clue.

[dune]

In that case thye'd also need to block off the side roads by the industral estates as fans were running up there to get at Pompey fans too. Or alternatively just use a bit of common sense and keep them in the ground until the areas directly surrounding SMS were clear.

 

As you are arguing in favour of segregation i.e holding fans in, would you be in favour of only allowing away fans to use supporters coaches? I'm not in favour of this personally as it would mean that the thugs are dictating how normal fans attend games.

[Turkish]

As you are arguing in favour of segregation i.e holding fans in, would you be in favour of only allowing away fans to use supporters coaches? I'm not in favour of this personally as it would mean that the thugs are dictating how normal fans attend games.

 

The Blackburn v Burnley game was ridiculous situation where a Blackurn fan who lived 2 miles from the Burnley ground would only be allowed in if he travelled on official club transport so he had to travel to Blackburn then back to Burnley on the club buses. I think the trains with a police escort worked well enough so far, there was minimal trouble before the game. It would limit the amount of flash points though as 1000 away fans being escorted through a city centre is alwasy going to be an invitation for some to cause trouble. Its not a question of thugs dictating, its a question of what is safest for the majority of fans, letting them all out together to mingle with each other is not it.

Edited 23 June, 2010 by Turkish

[hamster]

I just wonder if the police HAD kept the pompey fans in, whether some saints may have decided to go on the pitch to taunt them. Seeing them leave in a way gave the green light for everybody intent on causing (or even innocently watching) the flash points to head for Brittannia road where the police could better control the situation.

 

In the past there have been one or two occasions when the stewards etc have not been able to contain fans on the pitch. I really do think that letting all out together could have been the lesser of the two risk-wise, added to the fact that people from the Northam End could not get involved initially whereas within the stadium it would have been carnage with many more innocent people getting involved.

[Turkish]

I just wonder if the police HAD kept the pompey fans in, whether some saints may have decided to go on the pitch to taunt them. Seeing them leave in a way gave the green light for everybody intent on causing (or even innocently watching) the flash points to head for Brittannia road where the police could better control the situation.

 

In the past there have been one or two occasions when the stewards etc have not been able to contain fans on the pitch. I really do think that letting all out together could have been the lesser of the two risk-wise, added to the fact that people from the Northam End could not get involved initially whereas within the stadium it would have been carnage with many more innocent people getting involved.

wouldn't have happened, i am sure of that, in all the Saints v Pompey games when they have kept fans in they have never tried to get at them on the pitch. Unlike the other games, Burnley for example, there were a lot more police on duty. There was never a hint of trouble inside the ground anyway.

[harvey]

At the end of the day, no matter what anyone says, the punishment doesn't fit the crime........and that's it.

[Fan The Flames]

Are you implying that they were innocent?

 

No.

[bristolsaint29]

Tough titties they shouldn't be breaking the law, the end!

[Rowan Gorilla 5]

If all these simple folk that wish to indulge in violence at football games actually had some self-respect, respect for others, respect for property and respect for authority then this wouldn't have happened. Don't even begin to say that respect has to be earned, some does yes, but not all. Had these people actually had respect and responsibility instilled in them then they would not have done what they did. Unfortunately for the majority they did not and this is the problem with so many today. Society is at fault as are the individuals concerned and for people to blame the police, the courts or the poor little urchins' upbringing and to question the tactics used and the sentences given is totally off the mark. Are the police meant to involve themselves in every aspect of the lives of people like these so as to ensure that order is preserved? Don't be absurd.

[harvey]

If all these simple folk that wish to indulge in violence at football games actually had some self-respect, respect for others, respect for property and respect for authority then this wouldn't have happened. Don't even begin to say that respect has to be earned, some does yes, but not all. Had these people actually had respect and responsibility instilled in them then they would not have done what they did. Unfortunately for the majority they did not and this is the problem with so many today. Society is at fault as are the individuals concerned and for people to blame the police, the courts or the poor little urchins' upbringing and to question the tactics used and the sentences given is totally off the mark. Are the police meant to involve themselves in every aspect of the lives of people like these so as to ensure that order is preserved? Don't be absurd.

 

But the point is, which you and many others do not seem to understand, the sentences do not reflect the crimes in todays society.

[hamster]

wouldn't have happened, i am sure of that,

 

I'm not so sure Turkish, I am pretty confident in saying that it would have been considered and had it been, would have strenthened the argument for having a more controlled hot-spot which was already in situ and evidently kept violent disorder to a minimum. I think that whichever side of the fence (intentional pun) one sits, we have to admit that there was relatively minimal trouble.

 

Having said that I do personally think that the crime does not fit the punishment and have some if not a lot of sympathy for the convicted but quite a lot of sympathy for their families who are (let's face it) innocent but will suffer disproportionately as an effect.

 

How many times have we had fans invade the pitch since we moved to SMS I wonder? And can you imagine the scenes if saints and Pompey started exchanging flares and punches on the pitch?

[Micky]

But the point is, which you and many others do not seem to understand, the sentences do not reflect the crimes in todays society.

 

Actually I think that most of the posters do recognise this point, but the fact of the matter is, we don't care.

 

The punishment may indeed seem disproportionate to the crime when viewed alongside 'the norm', but if this acts as any sort of a deterrent to future perpetrators, then I welcome such a stance for all crime.

 

Yes the police could have done things differently, perhaps if you want to know why they didn't, a polite letter to Hampshire Chief Constable might unearth a more informed reason than the speculation contained here.

[harvey]

Actually I think that most of the posters do recognise this point, but the fact of the matter is, we don't care.

 

The punishment may indeed seem disproportionate to the crime when viewed alongside 'the norm', but if this acts as any sort of a deterrent to future perpetrators, then I welcome such a stance for all crime.

 

Yes the police could have done things differently, perhaps if you want to know why they didn't, a polite letter to Hampshire Chief Constable might unearth a more informed reason than the speculation contained here.

 

That's a shame, but then I suppose that it's indicative of people like you.