Cameron on the Unions - "What planet are they on?"

[dune]

"George Parker and Alex Barker say in the Financial Times that this Budget is going to be a test for the coalition government:

"If the Budget is shown to have discriminated against the poor or against the less prosperous regions beyond the M25 - whatever the coalition might say - tensions inside the Lib Dems are likely to emerge.""

 

from:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/seealso/2010/06/daily_view_tuesdays_budget.html

 

 

I think it's fair to say there will be tensions throughout the length of the parliament, but what I believe will hold it together is the fact that if the coalition collapses it will adversely affect the Liberals at the polls. So long as the electoral comission sort out the constituencies so that they no longer unfairly favour Labour it's my belief that any collapse will result in a Conservative majority government.

[Wes Tender]

True - it's not the rich per se; it's the Royal Family, the descendants of William the Conqueror's dukes, and the Church of England that own the vast majority of our green and pleasant land. ( Most of whom lack the qualifications and experience you allude to ).

 

I'm pleased that you are capable of making the differentiation that johhnyboy seemed incapable of. He inferred that the wealthy through corporate responsibility and those who owned 22% of the actual land, were one and the same. But then you go and contradict yourself by saying that these people who have owned that land since the times of William the Conqueror lack qualifications and experience to administer it. Isn't nearly a thousand years experience long enough? And the fact that the land ownership continues to that extent despite punitive death duties suggests that they must be doing something right. In reality, a lot of those large estates are run as proper businesses, employing thousands of people to work the land productively and efficiently. What would you propose? That the government confiscates that land and redistributes it to the less affluent in parcels, or to the friends of the government as Mugabe did in Zimbabwe?

[Wes Tender]

Where as the language of the tories just illustrates what a bunch of "I'm alright Jack" c**t each and everyone is.

 

You could also do with remembering that those in this nation with the highest qualifications and experience in their fields don't work in big business but in the government funded university and research labs around land.

 

Thanks for the lecture about what I could do with remembering, according to your opinion. I'm sorry to inform you that your second line contradicts itself and you would realise that with a bit of thought. If as you say, all the best qualified and most experienced people who could run giant corporations and industries were all esconced in doing Governement funded University and private research labs around the land, then those who are actually doing the work of running those companies are still worthy of their financial rewards. This is because of the simple law of supply and demand and if the top lot were unavailable because of their employment elsewhere, there would a shortage of qualified labour, wouldn't there?

 

Those of an academic bent work in the halls of academia, whereas those whose business accumen is their strongest point, run businesses.

You could also do with remembering that in order to succeed as a nation, we need to have a good supply of both, entrepreneurs and eggheads. Both groups need to be rewarded well financially and not overtaxed, or else they will emigrate to kinder tax havens as they have done so before.

[Johnny Bognor]

Any of the usual suspects on here want to give George some credit for taking nearly 900,000 people out of income taxation altogether?????

 

I for one applaud it as hard working / low paid workers need to be given a break. It won't help many in the public sector as they earn more than the new threshold, but I think working people should get a break over non-working people....... It is the start of incentivising people to get off benefits and do something.

Edited 21 June, 2010 by Johnny Bognor

[dune]

Any of the usual suspects on here want to give George some credit for taking nearly 900,000 people out of income taxation altogether?????

 

I for one applaud it as hard working / low paid workers need to be given a break. It won't help many in the public sector as they earn more than the new threshold, but I think working people should get a break over non-working people....... It is the start of incentivising people to get off benefits and do something.

 

I don't know about you Johnny, but I was a big critic of George Osborne prior to the election but have to say i've been very impressed with him since he became chancellor.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/21/george-osborne-fdr-new-deal

[AndyNorthernSaints]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jun/21/golden-pension-public-sector

[trousers]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/21/george-osborne-fdr-new-deal

 

Just for balance, would be good to post an article about the first budget under the Thatcher government and why that was needed.

[bridge too far]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jun/21/golden-pension-public-sector

 

Thanks for posting this, Andy. I've been trying to point these facts out on here for ages.

 

But a lot of people make their minds up by reading screaming headlines about 'gold-plated' public sector pensions found in the Daily Hate etc.

 

It's good to get a balanced view.

[GenevaSaint]

Any of the usual suspects on here want to give George some credit for taking nearly 900,000 people out of income taxation altogether?????

 

I for one applaud it as hard working / low paid workers need to be given a break. It won't help many in the public sector as they earn more than the new threshold, but I think working people should get a break over non-working people....... It is the start of incentivising people to get off benefits and do something.

 

They're not taking 900,000 out of tax altogether are they. Isn't that the number if the allowance goes upto 10k? They're not going to do that today in one step, the figures don't add up. But yes, congratulations are due to the Tory party for taking on a Liberal Democrat policy :-)

 

The workers do already get breaks over the non workers, they get working families tax credits and child tax credits. Lets be under no illusion, taking the tax allowance upto 10K is not going to get any lazy benefits lay abouts off the dole and into work.

[bridge too far]

Taking people out of tax or 'giving' them another £200 a year will not make up for the increases in the amount they have to pay if VAT is increased and if some benefits are cut.

 

My daughter won't be able to afford to go to work (and she has a senior job in the housing sector) if child tax credits and benefits are cut.

[trousers]

 

Thanks for posting this, Andy. I've been trying to point these facts out on here for ages.

 

But a lot of people make their minds up by reading screaming headlines about 'gold-plated' public sector pensions found in the Daily Hate etc.

 

It's good to get a balanced view.

It's debatable whether the 'tit for tat' posting links to left and right wing articles offers a balanced view per se, rather it offers two polarised views.

 

What would be good in this game of 'my link is better than your link' would be people referring to articles that are not written by publications or authors with a political agenda.

 

But back in the real world....

[bridge too far]

It's debatable whether the 'tit for tat' posting links to left and right wing articles offers a balanced view per se, rather it offers two polarised views.

 

What would be good in this game of 'my link is better than your link' would be people referring to articles that are not written by publications or authors with a political agenda.

 

But back in the real world....

 

Which is what the Liberal-supporting Guardian is demonstrating in this article. The Guardian doesn't rely on sensationalist half-truths like others in the media.

[trousers]

 

Which is what the Liberal-supporting Guardian is demonstrating in this article. The Guardian doesn't rely on sensationalist half-truths like others in the media.

 

They "supported" the 'Liberals' at the election as a side effect of falling out of love (temporarily) with Labour. I doubt they support them with as much passion post-election...

 

Does the Telegraph, for example, rely on "sensationalist half-truths" or did you sneak in a cheeky apples vs oranges comparision there...? ;-)

[dune]

Taking people out of tax or 'giving' them another £200 a year will not make up for the increases in the amount they have to pay if VAT is increased and if some benefits are cut.

 

My daughter won't be able to afford to go to work (and she has a senior job in the housing sector) if child tax credits and benefits are cut.

 

I hope they scrap that stupid child trust fund.

[Johnny Bognor]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jun/21/golden-pension-public-sector

 

See:

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloa...9/2009_pps.pdf

 

Then download table 13.7a

 

The Public Sector are better paid in every percentile, excluding the top 20% of all earners, which has been the case since 1984. (This does not take account of job security, pensions, holidays, paid sick and all the other benefits enjoyed by public sector workers).

 

Also, in table 13.9a, private sector workers work more hours in every percentile when compared to public sector workers, so we move on to table 13.5a which shows:

1. The bottom 10% of earners in the private sector earn £5.99 per hour (compared to £7.34 in the public sector)

2. If you are a middle earner in the private sector you get £11.84 compared to £14.95 in the public sector

3. In the top 10% of earners, the average private sector worker enjoys £24.29 per hour which is LESS than the top 10% in the public sector who get £24.77 per hour.

 

 

So, in the interests of fairness, the public sector should take their "FAIR" share of the pain.

 

 

What would be good in this game of 'my link is better than your link' would be people referring to articles that are not written by publications or authors with a political agenda.

 

Does the office for National Statistics count?

Edited 22 June, 2010 by Johnny Bognor

[bridge too far]

See:

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloa...9/2009_pps.pdf

 

Then download table 13.7a

 

The Public Sector are better paid in every percentile, excluding the top 20% of all earners, which has been the case since 1984. (This does not take account of job security, pensions, holidays, paid sick and all the other benefits enjoyed by public sector workers).

 

Also, in table 13.9a, private sector workers work more hours in every percentile when compared to public sector workers, so we move on to table 13.5a which shows:

1. The bottom 10% of earners in the private sector earn £5.99 per hour (compared to £7.34 in the public sector)

2. If you are a middle earner in the private sector you get £11.84 compared to £14.95 in the public sector

3. In the top 10% of earners, the average private sector worker enjoys £24.29 per hour which is LESS than the top 10% in the public sector who get £24.77 per hour.

 

 

So, in the interests of fairness, the public sector should take their "FAIR" share of the pain.

 

 

 

 

Does the office for National Statistics count?

 

JB - once again you ignore the fact that a lot of low paid workers in the private sector are workers who once worked in the public sector but were TUPEd over when a lot of public sector work was privatised. It does skew the percentages.

 

My daughter is an IT project manager working for a housing association. Her best friend does the same work for a facilities management company that has, as its main contract, FM work for a housing association. My daughter earns half of that of her friend. They do the same job.

[badgerx16]

JB - once again you ignore the fact that a lot of low paid workers in the private sector are workers who once worked in the public sector but were TUPEd over when a lot of public sector work was privatised. It does skew the percentages.

 

My daughter is an IT project manager working for a housing association. Her best friend does the same work for a facilities management company that has, as its main contract, FM work for a housing association. My daughter earns half of that of her friend. They do the same job.

 

It is never as black & white as the politicos want us to think, and it's much easier to present a blanket 'Public Sector bad, Private Sector good' message in the current climate, and with a favorable press.

[badgerx16]

The problem with such condensed statistics as the tables JB quotes is that it lumps ALL jobs into one pot, for instance in the public sector you will have Local Government, Whitehall & Westminster, the Armed Forces, the NHS, School teaching & non-teaching staff, etc, all grouped as one, and skewed by the comparatively higher salaries paid within the Civil Service. The same effect will be seen in the Private Sector stats; shop and retail staff are paid less than industrial workers.

 

It would be fairer to make the comparison of like-for-like jobs, for instance a junior clerical grade from either side of the divide, an IT project manager ( as demonstrated by BTF ), Senior departmental managers, etc. The picture is far more varied and confused than the bland nationally averaged stats might appear to show.

[Johnny Bognor]

JB - once again you ignore the fact that a lot of low paid workers in the private sector are workers who once worked in the public sector but were TUPEd over when a lot of public sector work was privatised. It does skew the percentages.

 

My daughter is an IT project manager working for a housing association. Her best friend does the same work for a facilities management company that has, as its main contract, FM work for a housing association. My daughter earns half of that of her friend. They do the same job.

 

So BTF, are you saying that all low paid workers were once in the Public Sector????

 

Codswallop.

 

Maybe a very very small minority. The bulk of underpaid people include cleaners, shelf stackers, tomato pickers, nursery school workers, shop floor workers, temps etc, etc, etc, many of whom have never been anywhere near the public sector.

 

Stop trying to find an example of one person you know, then apply it to the whole of the UK in to justify your argument. You'll be going on about hospital cleaning contracts in minute.......

[Johnny Bognor]

It would be fairer to make the comparison of like-for-like jobs, for instance a junior clerical grade from either side of the divide, an IT project manager ( as demonstrated by BTF ), Senior departmental managers, etc. The picture is far more varied and confused than the bland nationally averaged stats might appear to show.

 

It would be fairer for the public sector....but it conveniently omits the lowest paid in society who work in the private sector where there is not an equivalent post. How many tomato and pepper pickers work in the public sector?

 

Jesus, here's me sticking up for the lowest paid in society and you want to take an "I'm alright jack, because I'm in the Public Sector, **** the rest attitude". I thought socialists were supposed to stick up for all working people, not just their own......

[dune]

BTF you can have as many fits of the vapours as you like but the fact remains it was your Labour lot that got us into this mess.

[badgerx16]

It would be fairer for the public sector....but it conveniently omits the lowest paid in society who work in the private sector where there is not an equivalent post. How many tomato and pepper pickers work in the public sector?

 

Jesus, here's me sticking up for the lowest paid in society and you want to take an "I'm alright jack, because I'm in the Public Sector, **** the rest attitude". I thought socialists were supposed to stick up for all working people, not just their own......

 

Not at all, I agree with what you say ( !!! ), though I expect there will some on here who now start a round of trying to outdo each other to prove which side has the lowest pay, ( isn't there a national minimum wage in effect ? ). There will be jobs on both sides that have no direct comparison, ( how many nuclear ballistic subs are operated by the private sector ? ), but you have to accept that the tables on the statistics.gov site are pretty meaningless in the 'real world', and are only really useful as ammunition for the Tory press and for public denouncement of the 'wasteful' public services.

[Johnny Bognor]

Not at all, I agree with what you say ( !!! ), though I expect there will some on here who now start a round of trying to outdo each other to prove which side has the lowest pay, ( isn't there a national minimum wage in effect ? ). There will be jobs on both sides that have no direct comparison, ( how many nuclear ballistic subs are operated by the private sector ? ), but you have to accept that the tables on the statistics.gov site are pretty meaningless in the 'real world', and are only really useful as ammunition for the Tory press and for public denouncement of the 'wasteful' public services.

 

Eh?

 

Government statistics (which were compiled under labour) are now ammunition for the Tory press. Could it be that the statistics show the last lot up for what they were and their performance doesn't exactly make the Tory press have to work to hard or to dig too deep? The truth gets told and it is dismissed as propaganda. Pray tell me, where do the Guardian get their facts from?

[dune]

If there was any justice we would start by seizing the assets of every Labour voter.

 

They are the basket cases who got us into this mess.

[badgerx16]

Eh?

 

Government statistics (which were compiled under labour) are now ammunition for the Tory press. Could it be that the statistics show the last lot up for what they were and their performance doesn't exactly make the Tory press have to work to hard or to dig too deep? The truth gets told and it is dismissed as propaganda. Pray tell me, where do the Guardian get their facts from?

 

Come on JB, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics", and those tables, regardless of who generated them, are proof of absolutely nothing. They are classic example of condensing things down to the point of total pointlessness. There may well be truth in there, and it may well support your argument, ( and I don't necessarily disagree with it ), but anybody with 2 brain cells to bang together, and capable of thereby generating a thought, can see that as firm evidence goes, this is gossamer.

[badgerx16]

If there was any justice we would start by seizing the assets of every Labour voter.

 

They are the basket cases who got us into this mess.

I would have thought the bankers voted Tory.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

If there was any justice we would start by seizing the assets of every Labour voter.

 

They are the basket cases who got us into this mess.

 

Personally I would say this all started when we got shot of British industry and decided that the City was the way to create wealth...

 

Regardless, I've bought my future children's clothes already, stocked up on food and booze while VAT is still at 17.5% and put a full tank of petrol in the car this morning...come on Georgie Boy, do your worst!! ;-)

Edited 22 June, 2010 by Thorpe-le-Saint

[GenevaSaint]

The tax-free personal allowance on income tax will be increased by £1,000 in April, giving 23 million people up to an extra £170 per year and taking 880,000 out of the tax system altogether, the chancellor says.

 

Don't spend your £3.69 per week all at once Dune;-)

[AndyNorthernSaints]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/18/ski-slope-forgemasters-yorkshire

[Johnny Bognor]

The tax-free personal allowance on income tax will be increased by £1,000 in April, giving 23 million people up to an extra £170 per year and taking 880,000 out of the tax system altogether, the chancellor says.

 

Don't spend your £3.69 per week all at once Dune;-)

 

That covers Dune's ticket tax at 1 ticket per week :-)

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Reducing housing benefit to £400 is going to make THOUSANDS of people homeless. All in this together?! My arse!

[Smirking_Saint]

Plus 20% VAT

 

Things are going to get hard.

 

Unfortunately we have ball-bag face and the rest of his labour cronies to thank for a difficult budget.

[Wes Tender]

Personally I would say this all started when we got shot of British industry and decided that the City was the way to create wealth...

 

 

Who is this "we" you talk about? The biggest single factor in the demise of British Industry was probably Union power which imposed restrictive practices, overmanning and high unit wage costs onto our manufacturers. That was all exacerbated by successive Labour Governments imposing high taxation onto the entrepreneurs as well as massive bureaucracy.

 

Over a period of time, heavy industry would have lost out anyway to those parts of the World capable of manufacturing with lower unit labour costs and less Government interference, but Labour certainly did their best with the help of the Unions to speed up that demise.

[CB Saint]

Personally I would say this all started when we got shot of British industry and decided that the City was the way to create wealth...

 

Regardless, I've bought my future children's clothes already, stocked up on food and booze while VAT is still at 17.5% and put a full tank of petrol in the car this morning...come on Georgie Boy, do your worst!! ;-)

 

Exempt from VAT

[iansums]

Plus 20% VAT

 

Things are going to get hard.

 

Unfortunately we have ball-bag face and the rest of his labour cronies to thank for a difficult budget.

 

A £1000 TV will cost you an extra £25. No big deal, but will raise a lot of money. This is a good move and brings us in line with the rest of the EU.

[$$$]

Reducing housing benefit to £400 is going to make THOUSANDS of people homeless. All in this together?! My arse!

 

No it’s not.

 

There are plenty of people who work for a living who have no chance of being able to afford the rent given to those who choose not to work. Why the hell should a single person be given rent for a 1 bedroom flat when they don’t work. What is wrong with lodging in a shared house. Why should my taxes pay for a massive house for some slut that has popped out multiple chav brats so each can have their own bedroom. I had to share a room with my brother when I was a child and I’m sure that I’m far from the only one.

 

Check out Rightmove, plenty of very nice houses available for less than £400 a week. If you can’t find one, move somewhere cheaper...

[The Kraken]

Reducing housing benefit to £400 is going to make THOUSANDS of people homeless. All in this together?! My arse!

 

Yeah, because £1,600 a month just gets you nothing at all these days...

[dune]

What a great budget. It makes such a refreshing change to have government that looks past just tax rises, and instead gets it's teeth into the public sector. For the past year or so it's been the private sector that have borne the brunt so it's about time the public sector were dragged into the real world. They won't like it though because they always like to play the victim card.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

What a great budget. It makes such a refreshing change to have government that looks past just tax rises, and instead gets it's teeth into the public sector. For the past year or so it's been the private sector that have borne the brunt so it's about time the public sector were dragged into the real world. They won't like it though because they always like to play the victim card.

 

This will cheer you up dune: My pay next year will still go up thanks to the teacher's pay agreement...it's just the 'level' that I move up to won't increase in size, it will stay the same as it was this year. Unlucky!

[Thedelldays]

fair budget

 

I bet BTF and throbie le saint were itching to slate it all day

[AndyNorthernSaints]

http://www.communitycare.co.uk/Articles/2010/06/22/114775/unison-osborne-declaring-war-with-pay-freeze.htm

[rocknrollman no2]

What a great budget. It makes such a refreshing change to have government that looks past just tax rises, and instead gets it's teeth into the public sector. For the past year or so it's been the private sector that have borne the brunt so it's about time the public sector were dragged into the real world. They won't like it though because they always like to play the victim card.

 

Most public sector jobs are there to help other people,nurses,prison officers,probation officers,librarians cleaners etc and a lot of these jobs offer lower pay,but have a better pension as compensation.

Now these people will have to take a pay freeze for two more years(some already have had a pay freeze for two years already),and more than likely have to contribute more to their pensions.

Hummmm.Seems a lot of people may disagree with you Dune.

[bridge too far]

fair budget

 

I bet BTF and throbie le saint were itching to slate it all day

 

 

 

 

from

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/10376512.stm

[AndyNorthernSaints]

http://www.communitycare.co.uk/Articles/2010/06/22/114776/Medical-assessments-for-DLA-claimants-39will-backfire39.htm

 

http://www.communitycare.co.uk/Articles/2010/05/27/114601/incapacity-benefit-claimants-to-face-flawed-work-assessment.htm

 

http://www.communitycare.co.uk/Articles/2009/10/13/112862/more-claimants-fit-to-work-under-new-sickness-benefit-regime.htm

[Thedelldays]

I guess the sky telly and laptops and drugs will have to go..

 

ok, I was being funny when I threw in the "drugs" comment...

 

I live in the southwest which is pretty low down on the average wage graphs.....plymouth has some real deprived areas..sky digital dishes are ten-a-penny on the sides of council houses which are full of kids..

 

yeah, im generalising..but it aint far from the truth...

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

fair budget

 

I bet BTF and throbie le saint were itching to slate it all day

 

Throbie le saint? That's new, how long did it take you to come up with that gem? If I'm honest, I was ready to go all out in slagging this budget off, but apart from a few issues regarding welfare and the VAT hike, I don't think it's that bad - It could have been a lot worse!!

[JustMike]

If there was any justice we would start by seizing the assets of every Labour voter.

 

They are the basket cases who got us into this mess.

 

 

ummm no, look further back than that. Labour spent years undoing your lots mess......then Brown took over and, well, showed Thatcher and Major how to really mess up

[JustMike]

Throbie le saint? That's new, how long did it take you to come up with that gem? If I'm honest, I was ready to go all out in slagging this budget off, but apart from a few issues regarding welfare and the VAT hike, I don't think it's that bad - It could have been a lot worse!!

 

this is just the beginning

[dune]

Most public sector jobs are there to help other people,nurses,prison officers,probation officers,librarians cleaners etc and a lot of these jobs offer lower pay,but have a better pension as compensation.

Now these people will have to take a pay freeze for two more years(some already have had a pay freeze for two years already),and more than likely have to contribute more to their pensions.

Hummmm.Seems a lot of people may disagree with you Dune.

 

I have had to increase my pension contributions and on top of that I choose to pay £200 per month extra in additional voluntary contributions. I'm lucky to be in a final salary scheme, but others in the private sector have seen their final salary schemes closed thanks to the Labour scum raiding the pension schemes and making them too costly for employers.