Cameron on the Unions - "What planet are they on?"

[bridge too far]

The public sector needs shaking up and where possible privatising. Surely you can see this?

 

No - based on my fairly wide knowledge of how the private sector has ballsed up previously public sector work. I'm thinking cleaning, catering, hard and soft FM - the list goes on.

 

And in the professional field - all that happens is that previously public sector workers get taken on by private companies. They don't get paid any more but the private companies charge more than the cost of the work when it was in the public sector. And yes, I'm including on-costs.

[rocknrollman no2]

The public sector needs shaking up and where possible privatising. Surely you can see this?

 

Do you agree with privatising the Prison Service or Probation Dune?Because if the Tories get their way,thats what will happen.

What you will get is a service where they employ people that are not fully qualified so they can pay them half the money.Vital services will be run for profit and what you will end up with is an inferior service,to what you had before.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

This thread has brightened my otherwise dull day. All that has been revealed is what we already knew: Cameron is Thatcher mk.II, dune thinks the sun shines out of Cameron's arse, people have pointed out the for and against arguments of Trade Unions...where is the new material?!?

 

We're just going to have to wait and see what happens on Tuesday: Surely recent history tells us that trying to second guess politics is pointless (how many people would have thought that the Lib Dems would get into bed with the ****servatives?!) I predict however that the budget will be annouced, dune will be dancing in the street, St.George will say it hasn't gone fair enough and bemoan the government's lack of commitment by stating that Unions should have been banned and that the NHS should have been scrapped, and I will **** and moan about the whole thing!

 

From a personal point of view though I will accept a pay freeze (as long as my London fringe allowance is secured) as I'm not a total moron (note the word total) and understand that sacrifices do need to be made, but what I won't accept however is an attack on my pension scheme - it's one of the few selling points in recruiting new teachers!! If Osbourne really wants this budget to be 'tough but fair' then he needs to introduce a 'Robin Hood' tax on the City as it was those ******s that caused all this in the first place and on the face of it, they're getting out of this VERY lightly!!

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Do you agree with privatising the Prison Service or Probation Dune?Because if the Tories get their way,thats what will happen.

What you will get is a service where they employ people that are not fully qualified so they can pay them half the money.Vital services will be run for profit and what you will end up with is an inferior service,to what you had before.

 

True, and we all know of the debacle with Group4 losing prisoners!

[dune]

All that has been revealed is what we already knew: Cameron is Thatcher mk.I

 

I hope David Cameron is Thatcher Mark II because that is exactly what this country needs right now. Aside from a few rabid left wingers (most of who seem to reside on this forum ) the general public are not stupid and they realise that Britain is broke, Britain needs fixing, and the Conservatives are the party that delivers on the economy. David Cameron and his team have been upfront and honest which is a breath of fresh air after 13 awful years under Labour and I think people appreciate this.

[bridge too far]

I hope David Cameron is Thatcher Mark II because that is exactly what this country needs right now. Aside from a few rabid left wingers (most of who seem to reside on this forum ) the general public are not stupid and they realise that Britain is broke, Britain needs fixing, and the Conservatives are the party that delivers on the economy. David Cameron and his team have been upfront and honest which is a breath of fresh air after 13 awful years under Labour and I think people appreciate this.

 

People will not appreciate losing their jobs and / or getting pay freezes or even pay cuts when they see bankers and senior executives receiving obscene bonuses and 7, 8, 9% pay rises.

 

This is what I mean by Georgie Porgie saying we have to share the pain. WE know full well that any pain we suffer will line the pockets of those who are already comfortable.

[dune]

People will not appreciate losing their jobs and / or getting pay freezes or even pay cuts when they see bankers and senior executives receiving obscene bonuses and 7, 8, 9% pay rises.

 

This is what I mean by Georgie Porgie saying we have to share the pain. WE know full well that any pain we suffer will line the pockets of those who are already comfortable.

 

Which government presided over the creation of the deficit?

[bridge too far]

Which government presided over the creation of the deficit?

 

What's that got to do with ordinary people losing out whilst the bankers (who caused the crisis that we're all paying for) continue to earn enormous salaries and bonuses? Where's the fairness that Chameleon and Georgie talk about there?

[hamster]

If they dare touch my pension they will be sorry. People really should be worried if even half of their planned measures become reality. Morale is a wonderful tool in getting through troubled waters but lack of it can be absolutely crushing, to ALL in our society. Obviously not the 'I'm alright Jack' sorts, but that goes without saying.

 

People keep telling me that wholesale cuts are long overdue, but I really would urge people to talk to those who will be most affected by them about their opinions. I do not mean the LG staff, I mean the people receiving the services. Even if they think the current level and qulity of service dished up is not good, there is an un-easy irony that they could get a lot, lot worse if the staff start leaving for the private sector or worse still leaving the services completley.

 

It's not all long holidays and a velvet lined commode chair for your retirement.

 

I can assure anyone receiving services in Hampshire that there is more going on behind the scenes to improve efficiency and quality of care than they might realise. The mis-management and waste over the past decade will not necesarily require more money in the budgets to correct, but it certainly won't be achienved with wholesale cuts.

[buctootim]

If they dare touch my pension they will be sorry. It's not all long holidays and a velvet lined commode chair for your retirement.

 

I imagine any cuts to public sector pension benefits will apply to new entrants, although the amount contributed to the scheme by current members might go up. Thats the usual way of dealing with it in the private sector. Dont think they'd be mad enough to try to cut pension benefits retrospectively.

[Jonnyboy]

You see, I've never got this argument. It's such an easy thing to say "tax the rich, they can afford it". There's a quote from TV show The West Wing which I think sums its up quite well..

 

"Henry, last fall, every time your boss got on the stump and said, "It’s time for the rich to pay their fair share," I hid under a couch and changed my name. I left Gage Whitney making $400,000 a year, which means I paid 27 times the national average in income tax. I paid my fair share, and the fair share of 26 other people. And I’m happy to, because that’s the only way it’s gonna work. And it’s in my best interest that everybody be able to go to schools and drive on roads. But I don’t get 27 votes on Election Day. The fire department doesn’t come to my house 27 times faster and the water doesn’t come out of my faucet 27 times hotter. The top one percent of wage earners in this country pay for 22 percent of this country. Let’s not call them names while they’re doing it, is all I’m saying."

 

To suggest the "stupidly rich", as you put it, aren't already being massively taxed and doing their fair share is just not true.

 

 

you mean hes got 270x the average in his bank and pension and those richest 1% own 22% of the country

[Jonnyboy]

Which government presided over the creation of the deficit?

 

are you maggie thatcher trolling in a dribbling senile state?

[hamster]

I'd fight shoulder to shoulder with anyone who does the same job as me to be entitled to the exact same rewards. If they are going to do our current cook's job then I would fight for them too.

 

Anyone who has worked in a job where there is a two-tier pay scale, then I do not have to tell you how damaging this is to a workforce as a community. It is a devisive tactic in the case of public sector workers and 'they' know full well that to control people you first need to divide them.

 

I really do have no problem with anyone not sharing my point of view and accept that I am both opinionated on this subject and I have a vested interest in this subject ie cuts to the public services.

 

To simultaneously 'qualify' and 'out' myself, I work for Social Services....for my sins. Seriously anyone who is in favour of these 'leaked' plans, do one thing for me and my colleagues in the public sector before you get brainwashed into taking this lieing (sp) down. Have a chat with your oldest relative about the prospect of their services being cut, ask your disabled neighbourf who always askes you about the match because he can't get to the ground let alone pay for a ticket, ask the Polish taxi driver about any cuts to his kids education which ironically is supposed to be educating all of our kids to a level such that we might all one day enjoy being in a garden of a STATE RUN care home rather than staring at the same four walls of our privatised (read, cheapest we can get away with) care home - BUPA excepted of course.

 

btw regarding BUPA, it's not a state secret who the surgeons who perform operations for them are actually the very same surgeon who operates on you and me. I only wish to clarify this point for any youngsters out there, perhaps low paid, perhaps working class. You may not be aware that one reason that we still have waiting lists is because we have to share them with those better off than us. Apparently we should be grateful as these companies pay a lot of money into the public purse which means we can build them even nicer shinier hospitals where they can maintain the status quo. Everyone's happy?

 

Bloody capitalists, I **** 'em.

 

hth ;-)

[bridge too far]

"Cutting the housing budget could cost the economy £44bn over 10 years"

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/politics/10361650.stm

 

This could lead to 200,000 construction jobs being lost and an additional 350,000 on the affordable housing waiting lists.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

I hope David Cameron is Thatcher Mark II because that is exactly what this country needs right now. Aside from a few rabid left wingers (most of who seem to reside on this forum ) the general public are not stupid and they realise that Britain is broke, Britain needs fixing, and the Conservatives are the party that delivers on the economy. David Cameron and his team have been upfront and honest which is a breath of fresh air after 13 awful years under Labour and I think people appreciate this.

 

Upfront and honest. Really?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1288190/Chris-Huhne-dumped-wife-shamelessly-played-family-values-election.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

 

If it's in the hate it must be true?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/.../Chris-Huhne-splits-from-wife-following-affair.html

[CB Saint]

I not sure that anyone is going to be be pleased about this budget. The rich will be taxed. The papers reported that a windfall tax is headed for the banks yesterday. Public services will be cut and rest of us will have to stump up more that our perceived fair share. It is going to hurt.

 

However I would rather have a government who got on with it than one that dithered storing up even greater problems for the future. I actually feel a bit of sympathy for Georgie boy. He has an impossible job. Whatever he does, someone loses out and they will perceive that some one else is not paying enough. Rather him that me.

[dune]

What's that got to do with ordinary people losing out whilst the bankers (who caused the crisis that we're all paying for) continue to earn enormous salaries and bonuses? Where's the fairness that Chameleon and Georgie talk about there?

 

It was your Labour lot that failed to regulated the banks. 13 years and they failed. How you've got the gaul to lecture on the deficit is beyond me. It was your party that put us in this mess.

[dune]

Upfront and honest. Really?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1288190/Chris-Huhne-dumped-wife-shamelessly-played-family-values-election.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

 

If it's in the hate it must be true?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/.../Chris-Huhne-splits-from-wife-following-affair.html

 

10 or 20 years ago this would have been a story.

[Johnny Bognor]

Indeed, before the credit crisis / recession, we were running a £60 Billion deficit.

[Johnny Bognor]

"Cutting the housing budget could cost the economy £44bn over 10 years"

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/politics/10361650.stm

 

This could lead to 200,000 construction jobs being lost and an additional 350,000 on the affordable housing waiting lists.

 

That's all if's, could's and maybe's based on something that may or may not happen written by someone who has a vested interest.

Edited 21 June, 2010 by Johnny Bognor

[bridge too far]

It was your Labour lot that failed to regulated the banks. 13 years and they failed. How you've got the gaul to lecture on the deficit is beyond me. It was your party that put us in this mess.

 

Dearie me Stanley - not reading the posts properly again.

 

I'm not lecturing on the deficit. I'm trying (but obviously failing) to remind you and ask you where the 'fairness' is when ordinary people are going to lose out big time whilst, as ever, the Tories' friends will get off comparitively scot free.

 

Got it now? There will be no 'fairness'.

[trousers]

Lol at the human race thinking they can take a random planet in a random universe and make it "fair".

[bridge too far]

Lol at the human race thinking they can take a random planet in a random universe and make it "fair".

 

Quite right - never believe a Tory eh

[dune]

Dearie me Stanley - not reading the posts properly again.

 

I'm not lecturing on the deficit. I'm trying (but obviously failing) to remind you and ask you where the 'fairness' is when ordinary people are going to lose out big time whilst, as ever, the Tories' friends will get off comparitively scot free.

 

Got it now? There will be no 'fairness'.

 

Life isn't fair, but I believe the Conservatives will make the right decisions. I agree that in an ideal world the bankers and fat cats would be hit hard, but as Alistair Darling rightly argued you cannot implement unilateral action because all that will happen is that the banks and other sectors will move abroad. Britain needs to start to working again and it's the private sector that will get us out of this mess.

[dune]

Oh and i've just noticed the spot price for Gold has hit another all time high today. If only Brown hadn't sold our gold reserves (against the advice of the experts) then perhaps the cuts wouldn't have needed to be quite so deep....

[Joensuu]

BTW Dune, slighlty off topic, but why have you misattributed a Huey Long quote to Churchill in your location?

[trousers]

By the way, that was aimed at Trousers. Always thought until that post that he seemed to have a brain but the ignorance was frightening. If you need emergency surgery because a car hits you, you will live (or possibly die) to regret those comments.

 

Sorry, you've lost me there....probably my fault to be honest as I am without brain...

 

which of my dumb comments alluded to the withdrawal of 'free' healthcare?

 

By the way, rest assured that the city of "soton" is not blighted by my lack of intelligence as I don't live there.

 

Just to correct that particular false assumption... ;-)

[trousers]

P.s. Sigh

[Wes Tender]

you mean hes got 270x the average in his bank and pension and those richest 1% own 22% of the country

 

Ah! The politics of envy rears its ugly head again with the intemporate and inflamatory language of the left.

 

I'm assuming that in most cases the high earners have massive responsibilities and qualifications and experience that most do not possess, therefore these people are in shorter supply and can command higher remuneration for their skills. But no doubt you would wish that everybody earned the same.

 

And as for that bunk about them owning 22% of the Country, what a load of tosh! They might have more influence than the man in the street over political affairs by virtue of their position as head of large corporations and they might own more land than most, but to suggest that they somehow own 22% of the Country is just ridiculous.

[trousers]

Life isn't fair, but I believe the Conservatives will make the right decisions. I agree that in an ideal world the bankers and fat cats would be hit hard, but as Alistair Darling rightly argued you cannot implement unilateral action because all that will happen is that the banks and other sectors will move abroad. Britain needs to start to working again and it's the private sector that will get us out of this mess.

 

In. A. Nutshell

 

Believe it or not, most 'man in the street' Tory voters like myself would love to see the bankers that flouted the poorly regulated system hung from the nearest champagne bar by their gonads, but we are also mindful that, like it or not, it's these very scumbags that got us in the mess in the first place (on top of Labour's debt they'd already amassed) that are best qualified to get us out of it (or rather their more scrupulous counterparts)

 

Yes, it's an unpalatable conundrum (head vs heart) but without a return to a better regulated version of the capitalism the western world ultimately relies upon (again, like it or not) then the country is going to be left with a whole generation of people like me who have earned a decent average wage but with a (hard earned) private pension fund that is worth sod all.

 

I'm not rich nor am I poor but without a bouyant financial sector I fear for my retirement.

 

The richer the bankers get the healthier my 'little man' future is too.

 

Is that "fair"...?

[badgerx16]

When the public sector budgets start getting pruned, where does the effect actually get felt ? Yes, some jobs will go; at my Authority we are already looking into over 200 posts going in the next couple of months as the cuts already announced bite, and these will almost all be 'front line' jobs as the funding reduction cuts the grants that pay their wages. However, look at something like Building Schools for the Future - contracts with PRIVATE contractors have already been signed, and are now worthless; ContactPoint was being developed by PRIVATE IT consultancies, as was the ID card scheme. Councils and other public agencies spend huge amounts of money in contracting in services and supplies, all from the PRIVATE sector.

And as for the new 'free' schools, they are being funded in part by diverting £50 million from the Harnessing Technology Grant from existing school budgets.

 

And of course, given the projection of 300,000 public sector redundancies, these will all be competing in the jobs market with over 2 million already unemployed, and will have to be added to the welfare bill whilst they are looking for new employment.

 

This will affect everybody - unless you are a non-dom, have an offshore bank account, or can afford an expensive tax evasion lawyer.

Edited 21 June, 2010 by badgerx16

[badgerx16]

 

And as for that bunk about them owning 22% of the Country, what a load of tosh! They might have more influence than the man in the street over political affairs by virtue of their position as head of large corporations and they might own more land than most, but to suggest that they somehow own 22% of the Country is just ridiculous.

True - it's not the rich per se; it's the Royal Family, the descendants of William the Conqueror's dukes, and the Church of England that own the vast majority of our green and pleasant land. ( Most of whom lack the qualifications and experience you allude to ).

[trousers]

A genuine question that I know not the answer: where do public employer pension schemes get invested into? Stock Market? Govt bonds? Post office account?

 

Genuine question born out of sheer ignorance

[bridge too far]

A genuine question that I know not the answer: where do public employer pension schemes get invested into? Stock Market? Govt bonds? Post office account?

 

Genuine question born out of sheer ignorance

 

I don't think they do get invested. I think what happens is that current contributions are used to pay current pensioners. Most public sector workers pay about 6% of their salaries every month into the 'fund' and this goes out, together with the employers' contributions, into the pensions paid out monthly.

[badgerx16]

I don't think they do get invested. I think what happens is that current contributions are used to pay current pensioners. Most public sector workers pay about 6% of their salaries every month into the 'fund' and this goes out, together with the employers' contributions, into the pensions paid out monthly.

The LG scheme is invested - it is theoretically self funded, but a lot of Local Authorities have over the years tried to save money by cutting back their obligation to contribute, hence there is a 'black hole'.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

It was your Labour lot that failed to regulated the banks. 13 years and they failed. How you've got the gaul to lecture on the deficit is beyond me. It was your party that put us in this mess.

 

And if Labour had not deregulated I wonder how long it would have been before the banks and Tories would have been campaigning against restrictive practices?

[bridge too far]

And if Labour had not deregulated I wonder how long it would have been before the banks and Tories would have been campaigning against restrictive practices?

 

And wasn't it Thatcher and Regan, in cahoots, who started off the deregulation anyway?

[bridge too far]

The LG scheme is invested - it is theoretically self funded, but a lot of Local Authorities have over the years tried to save money by cutting back their obligation to contribute, hence there is a 'black hole'.

 

Thanks Badger - I think the NHS scheme operates as I wrote. At least that was what I was told when I joined the NHS scheme.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

10 or 20 years ago this would have been a story.

 

The fact that he preached of family values while not practising them?

 

I suppose a principle such as the sanctity of marriage wouldn't matter too much to a Lothario or the type of middle aged man who still lives with mum?

 

The truth is that marriages do break up, sadly, but to be preaching on high about being a family man whilst carrying on outside of marriage rankles of hypocrisy, and that is an affectation adopted by all parties but prominently so because this turncoat has yet to face his voters in his constituency. Where he never lives.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

And wasn't it Thatcher and Regan, in cahoots, who started off the deregulation anyway?

 

Don't tell Stanley that!

[trousers]

Thanks Badger - I think the NHS scheme operates as I wrote. At least that was what I was told when I joined the NHS scheme.

 

Cheers for the replies. I guess it's a bit of a double edged sword for public sector pension schemes.

 

If they choose to invest their fund on the open market they (potentially) grow the fund to the benefit of their members but if it all goes pear shaped then there would be uproar.

 

Interesting conundrum. Would be interesting to learn what % of public sector pension funds are invested in the stockmarket and thus rely on a bouyant private sector.

[View From The Top]

Ah! The politics of envy rears its ugly head again with the intemporate and inflamatory language of the left.

 

Where as the language of the tories just illustrates what a bunch of "I'm alright Jack" c**t each and everyone is.

 

You could also do with remembering that those in this nation with the highest qualifications and experience in their fields don't work in big business but in the government funded university and research labs around land.

[View From The Top]

I suppose if you are a middle aged man, in a low skilled job, living at home with mum then cuts won't affect you much.

[dune]

And if Labour had not deregulated I wonder how long it would have been before the banks and Tories would have been campaigning against restrictive practices?

 

So you're admitting it was Labours fault. I respect your honesty.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

So you're admitting it was Labours fault. I respect your honesty.

 

The pressure was on Labour to deregulate, I believe the Tories would have done it when next in power if there had not been a worldwide recession.

 

Blame away all you like but Labour agreed with the logic that it was a way forward.

 

Although Labour might have to take the blame for not enforcing a greater control over the ways that money was invested. That would still have left the Tories braying though.

[badgerx16]

So you're admitting it was Labours fault. I respect your honesty.

Does your Internet persona truly reflect your 'real' personality ?

 

Although I find it very hard to do, I suppose I have to pity you out of Christian kindness.

[dune]

The pressure was on Labour to deregulate, I believe the Tories would have done it when next in power if there had not been a worldwide recession.

 

Blame away all you like but Labour agreed with the logic that it was a way forward.

 

Although Labour might have to take the blame for not enforcing a greater control over the ways that money was invested. That would still have left the Tories braying though.

 

I don't disagree with you, but the fact remains that the crisis, the deficit and the mountain of debt happened on Labours watch. The Libservatives have been elected to deal with it and just like in 1979 i'm confident that David Cameron will rise to the challenge and emulate Margaret Thatcher as one of greatest PM's this country has ever had.

[bridge too far]

Dune it will be interesting to see if the Libs vote the budget in. There is a lot of disquiet apparently from some very senior Liberals.

[dune]

Dune it will be interesting to see if the Libs vote the budget in. There is a lot of disquiet apparently from some very senior Liberals.

 

I don't doubt there is disquiet, but the Budget will go through.

[bridge too far]

I don't doubt there is disquiet, but the Budget will go through.

 

 

"George Parker and Alex Barker say in the Financial Times that this Budget is going to be a test for the coalition government:

"If the Budget is shown to have discriminated against the poor or against the less prosperous regions beyond the M25 - whatever the coalition might say - tensions inside the Lib Dems are likely to emerge.""

 

from:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/seealso/2010/06/daily_view_tuesdays_budget.html