Bloody Sunday enquiry

[StuRomseySaint]

I’m sure being a soldier in NI during the troubles was a really tough gig, but nothing excuses Bloody Sunday or how the army treated the Irish in general. Most of the torture techniques in by the Americans were widely used by the British against the Irish. Heavy handed tactics only led to more violence, there was only peace when the Govt started talking to the ‘terrorists’.

 

The guilty, those that lied and those that committed murder, must be punished.

 

What are you on? Of course we used to give as good as we got sometimes, sometimes a gobby catholic who had been throwing rocks/petrol bombs etc would get chucked into the back of a Snatch ( military vehicle you perv ) and given a good kicking before being let on his way...it was a better way of doing things rather than taking us off patrol and nicking him. Sometimes we would dish out the odd slap round the chops with a the butt of the rifle. This was part and parcel, it might have sounded unprofessional, but you had to work there to understand the conditions we worked in and the rules which we had to work under.

 

Bloody Sunday indirectly caused many more innocent lives. The rules of engagement after that incident where tightened to such an extent that many soldiers lost their lives obeying them. Not being allowed to carry a round in the chamber. Having to issues a warning "Army stop, or I'll fire" and most importantly, not actually being allowed to fire at the person unless they have a firearm pointed at you and they were looking through the sight just about to shoot. Once they have shot you/your mate, they are no longer a threat so you cannot fire... it's rules of engagement like this that caused many many lives.

 

Let's not also forget that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness are both convicted paramilitarys and former IRA members responsible for hundreds of deaths. As recently as a few years ago both still had links to paramilitary activity in Ireland. I wonder if they are now going to release a public apology?

[buctootim]

What are you on? Of course we used to give as good as we got sometimes, sometimes a gobby catholic who had been throwing rocks/petrol bombs etc would get chucked into the back of a Snatch ( military vehicle you perv ) and given a good kicking before being let on his way...it was a better way of doing things rather than taking us off patrol and nicking him. Sometimes we would dish out the odd slap round the chops with a the butt of the rifle. This was part and parcel, it might have sounded unprofessional, but you had to work there to understand the conditions we worked in and the rules which we had to work under.

 

Bloody Sunday indirectly caused many more innocent lives. The rules of engagement after that incident where tightened to such an extent that many soldiers lost their lives obeying them. Not being allowed to carry a round in the chamber. Having to issues a warning "Army stop, or I'll fire" and most importantly, not actually being allowed to fire at the person unless they have a firearm pointed at you and they were looking through the sight just about to shoot. Once they have shot you/your mate, they are no longer a threat so you cannot fire... it's rules of engagement like this that caused many many lives.

 

Let's not also forget that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness are both convicted paramilitarys and former IRA members responsible for hundreds of deaths. As recently as a few years ago both still had links to paramilitary activity in Ireland. I wonder if they are now going to release a public apology?

 

I dont blame the army for smacking rioters up in the back of snatch landrovers, its a natural human reaction to those who have tried to brain you. That is a totally different order of magnitude to shooting 27 unarmed people on a Civil Right march. We shouldnt forget how the conditions for the IRA came about. Its incredible that even in the 1960s:

 

no one man one vote - in local government only ratepayers could vote

Gerrymandering, Unionists were elected even in districts with Catholic majorities

discrimination in housing

discrimination in jobs

Protestant only B-Specials police support.

 

In Londonderry / Derry, a city with a 70% Catholic population out of 177 paid council employees, 145 were protestant 32 were Catholic. Catholics were allocated crap housing in the Bogside, whilst protestants got much better quality housing in the town centre. Out of 10 000 workers in Belfast's shipyard only 400 were Catholic. In Fermanagh no senior council posts were catholic and in that county out of 75 bus drivers only 7 were Catholic.

 

If 40% of the population in England were treated like that, the result would have been the same.

Edited 17 June, 2010 by buctootim

[StuRomseySaint]

Obviously I am limited to how much I can say, I find it amazing that the public can happily allow McGuinnes and Adams to condemn the British forces, to campaign for the Bloody Sunday enquiry and demand appologies etc when they are directly responsible for hundred and hundreds of deaths of innocent people, and I am not just talking about delegating, the pair of them have bloody on their own hands.

 

They should have been tried for war crimes, the same as Saddam Hussein etc, both have dodged death, when all both of them deserve is indeed that - a slow and painful death.

 

Maybe now they have got their wish we can now have an enquiry into the actions of these two? Have them put to trial.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Obviously I am limited to how much I can say, I find it amazing that the public can happily allow McGuinnes and Adams to condemn the British forces, to campaign for the Bloody Sunday enquiry and demand appologies etc when they are directly responsible for hundred and hundreds of deaths of innocent people, and I am not just talking about delegating, the pair of them have bloody on their own hands.

 

They should have been tried for war crimes, the same as Saddam Hussein etc, both have dodged death, when all both of them deserve is indeed that - a slow and painful death.

 

Maybe now they have got their wish we can now have an enquiry into the actions of these two? Have them put to trial.

 

Spot on, people like Adams and McGuiness contributed to the conditions that led to Bloody Sunday. If British soldiers are prosecuted as a result of this enquiry, then all unsolved murders and crimes from the troubles should also reopenned and prosecutions sought. Killers are walking free as a result of the Peace procees, having served time cut short as part of this procees.They can still be brought to justice over crimes they weren't convicted for, if new evidence comes to light. Let's spend money on seeking justice for the innocent RUC officers, Army personell and civillians that Adams, McGuinness cut down.

 

The whole Peace Procees is phoney,there are parts of Ulster that make 1930's Chicago look respectable. The IRA did not just go back to a peaceful life when they ended the "war", they are gangsters and racketeers and the establishment turn a blind eye

[Thedelldays]

Obviously I am limited to how much I can say, I find it amazing that the public can happily allow McGuinnes and Adams to condemn the British forces, to campaign for the Bloody Sunday enquiry and demand appologies etc when they are directly responsible for hundred and hundreds of deaths of innocent people, and I am not just talking about delegating, the pair of them have bloody on their own hands.

 

They should have been tried for war crimes, the same as Saddam Hussein etc, both have dodged death, when all both of them deserve is indeed that - a slow and painful death.

 

Maybe now they have got their wish we can now have an enquiry into the actions of these two? Have them put to trial.

 

 

Stu..ROE has altered again somewhat...

 

you have to issue the "warning" or words to that effect..and you can shoot aimed shots at a person you feel is endangering human life (note, not YOUR own life like it used to be)

 

JSP 385 is gone and we have moved to JSP 398

 

 

how would that effect bloody sunday...well, the guy who was carrying nail bombs would now have been shot dead LEGALLY...mcguniness would probably have been shot dead the moment his sub machine gun was raised...

 

all different now

[StuRomseySaint]

 

The whole Peace Procees is phoney,there are parts of Ulster that make 1930's Chicago look respectable. The IRA did not just go back to a peaceful life when they ended the "war", they are gangsters and racketeers and the establishment turn a blind eye

 

There is paramilitary activity almost every day over there. Vigilante attacts, punishment shootings, sectarian murders, protection rackets etc etc... however Blairs Labour put a ban on it being reported.

 

There definately is not peace in Ulster yet, whatever the government might try and tell you.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I have good friends in the South and we've spoken about the situation. According to them, most don't want anything to do with the North, they know it's a corrupt "Country" which will just be a drain on the South and cause nothing but trouble. They have a romantic notion of a United Ireland, but do not really want it to happen.

[buctootim]

I have good friends in the South and we've spoken about the situation. According to them, most don't want anything to do with the North, they know it's a corrupt "Country" which will just be a drain on the South and cause nothing but trouble. They have a romantic notion of a United Ireland, but do not really want it to happen.

 

My dad's family are Catholics from West Belfast. Gerry Adams used to work for my uncle (as a paper boy). They also have a romantic notion of a united Ireland and whether they actually want it to happen or not depends almost entirely on the relative strength of the economies in the North and South at any one time. Like most people, whistful aspirations usually come behind paying the bills and going on holiday.

Edited 17 June, 2010 by buctootim

[StuRomseySaint]

My dad's family are Catholics from West Belfast. Gerry Adams used to work for my uncle (as a paper boy). They also have a romantic notion of a united Ireland and whether they actually want it to happen or not depends almost entirely on the relative strength of the economies in the North and South at any one time. Like most people, whistful aspirations usually come behind paying the bills and going on holiday.

 

Gerry Adams notion is anything but romantic. He spat at me once for taking cover in his Mums garden ( Lower Falls, West Belfast ) ... it's ok though, I pointed the ariel of the White Sifter* at her TV the next night and blew it up. Pah hahaha

 

* A device which neutralises certain remote explosives.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Gerry Adams notion is anything but romantic. He spat at me once for taking cover in his Mums garden ( Lower Falls, West Belfast ) ... it's ok though, I pointed the ariel of the White Sifter* at her TV the next night and blew it up. Pah hahaha

 

* A device which neutralises certain remote explosives.

 

Stu, you can't be this thick: You said that Gerry Adams' notion is not romantic because he spat on you...of course he was going to bloody spit on you! In his eyes, you were an occupying army stopping him from achieving his romantic notion of a united Ireland. Not condoning his actions, just pointing out the obvious.

[StuRomseySaint]

Stu, you can't be this thick: You said that Gerry Adams' notion is not romantic because he spat on you...of course he was going to bloody spit on you! In his eyes, you were an occupying army stopping him from achieving his romantic notion of a united Ireland. Not condoning his actions, just pointing out the obvious.

 

I should have worded that better, I wasn't using that as a reason for his romantic notion.

 

Gerry Adams has KILLED dozens of soldiers and innocent civilians with his own hands, he has ordered many many more HUNDREDS of murders / punishment shootings. Even now, his close family in West Belfast are still involved in paramilitary activity. I think the saying 'romantic notion' is not the most appropriate in this case.

 

I know the definition of romantic notion is not how it sounds, but romance is a word that I would not associate with a murdering scum like Adams.

Edited 18 June, 2010 by StuRomseySaint

[Lord Duckhunter]

If Ireland was united the South would have to deal with all the criminal activity and protection rackets going on now.They would have to deal with the IRA policing their own people, and the unionist thugs doing the same, and they would have to deal with the UVF ect, that may take up arms again.Apart from the present financial crisis (which they are starting to deal with) The Republic has become a modern pretty wealthy state, why would they want the dead hand of Ulster weighing them down?

 

From talking to people in the South, this is not an East/West Germany situation to them. They are perfectly happy the way things are.

[StuRomseySaint]

If Ireland was united the South would have to deal with all the criminal activity and protection rackets going on now.They would have to deal with the IRA policing their own people, and the unionist thugs doing the same, and they would have to deal with the UVF ect, that may take up arms again.Apart from the present financial crisis (which they are starting to deal with) The Republic has become a modern pretty wealthy state, why would they want the dead hand of Ulster weighing them down?

 

From talking to people in the South, this is not an East/West Germany situation to them. They are perfectly happy the way things are.

 

There is no win/win situation in Northern Ireland, if Ulster was handed back to Ireland then the UFF/UVF would most definately, without a shadow of a doubt, take up arms again.

 

And in all seriousness, the UFF/UVF are a much more capable and disciplined fighting force than the IRA.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The whole "Peace Procees" has brought about a major change in the Souths attitude towards the Brits. I worked with a lot of Irish abroad in the 80's and there was always a little bit of resentment under the surface. There was always one ready to have a pop after a couple of beers, until they got to know you as a person, there was hostillity. Move on 20 years and that's pretty much vanised. I was in Dublin at the same time as the English Rugby side played at Croke Park the first time. I was in a bar packed full of locals, with just me as the sole Englishman. The banter was great, the people fantastic and despite the result it was one of the best laughs I've had in any bar anywhere.Dont forget that Croke Park has a special place in Irish hearts and yet they were willing to embrace me and welcome me into their bar. That would just not have happened before the Good Friday agreement, there would have been someone wanting a pop. Now I know that being able to have a friendly drink up is in no way comparable to shooting and killing people, but I just get the feeling that the Irish people as a whole are more comfortable about the past and more forward looking than anything else, and that can only be a good thing.

[alpine_saint]

The whole "Peace Procees" has brought about a major change in the Souths attitude towards the Brits. I worked with a lot of Irish abroad in the 80's and there was always a little bit of resentment under the surface. There was always one ready to have a pop after a couple of beers, until they got to know you as a person, there was hostillity. Move on 20 years and that's pretty much vanised. I was in Dublin at the same time as the English Rugby side played at Croke Park the first time. I was in a bar packed full of locals, with just me as the sole Englishman. The banter was great, the people fantastic and despite the result it was one of the best laughs I've had in any bar anywhere.Dont forget that Croke Park has a special place in Irish hearts and yet they were willing to embrace me and welcome me into their bar. That would just not have happened before the Good Friday agreement, there would have been someone wanting a pop. Now I know that being able to have a friendly drink up is in no way comparable to shooting and killing people, but I just get the feeling that the Irish people as a whole are more comfortable about the past and more forward looking than anything else, and that can only be a good thing.

 

Then you can confirm that this report has done no good in the eyes of most Irishmen, I believe...

[Lord Duckhunter]

The report will be treated the same as in most of the Celtic nations I'd imagine. There will be people angry about what happened, some wanting prosecutions, some not.

 

Had the same report been delivered 20 years ago, all hell would have been let loose. With the Americans putting their oar in as well. My Irish friends are staying with us in August, so I'll ask them, but I doubt if it'll be very high on their agenda.

[hamster]

Re the Good Friday agreement, can I just say that whever we are today and I fully accept that we are but a fairy step along the road to genuine reconciliation, we should, to a man, be grateful.

 

My Dad served many tours of NI back in the 70's and we (Mum, 5 kids, 2 cats and Patch tha dog) hated every minute of it; every 'news flash', every florally codeworded bomb scare, every overdubbed silhouetted actors interview of faceless people who wanted my Dad dead, hated it, hated it, hated it.

 

My old man is a peaceful and pensive man, but I have no idea how he and the many thousands of others coped over there. Much harder too for the locals, north and south. The culture and tension must have been unbearable at times, I have a relative who hung himself in barracks because it ****ed his head up, another victim? I have no issue with people on either side of the divide I really don't, if someone feels so strongly about something that they would rather take to arms rather than just kick back and enjoy the craic that is this life then I think that I 'get it', it's not exactly a life-choice is it, it's thrust upon people and I'm not 100% sure that it is a simple as laying down your arms or putting the past behind you.

 

I thought for many years after Dad had left the army that I myself had put those sleepless nights behind me until one day when I was on the IOW ferry doing my wekly run to the pubs and Co-Op's of the island. Sat there with a steaming cup of tea and two slices of ho buttered toast, transistor radio in ear, I heard those two words that somewhere along the way I had stopped noticing...'NEWS FLASH'; the IRA had bombed The Royal Marines School of Music at Deal! That is the town where I was born and those were the very rooms that my Dad used to call home, those were my friends and my neighbours, how could they have done this? I wanted my Mum. I was quite shaken tbh and looked around me for someone to tell, someone to hold me, someone to tell me it would be alright. I looked around for my Mum, Mum would always protect us from the bad news all those years ago, how she fitted five kids under her wing is a mystery to me still today, but she did it. No-one around me fitted my requirements and I sat there with a tear in my eye and became pensive, I had become my Dad.

 

People died and people killed each other, they probably still will but hopefully (God permitting) many more people whose lives were disrupted will now be able to be a little more acquiescent about the events which they cannot do a single thing to alter, it is in the past and the future is where we all have to live. I said this a couple of weeks ago to someone 'the tears of a soldier are the tears of a nation, and the tears of a soldier's sons and daughters are the tears of hope, hope that Daddy is coming home'. Many more kids can now sleep at night.

 

As a famous comedian once said, 'may your God go with you'.

Edited 20 June, 2010 by hamster

[harvey]

x-x

[harvey]

Gerry Adams notion is anything but romantic. He spat at me once for taking cover in his Mums garden ( Lower Falls, West Belfast ) ... it's ok though, I pointed the ariel of the White Sifter* at her TV the next night and blew it up. Pah hahaha

 

* A device which neutralises certain remote explosives.

 

Why didn't you shoot him?

[StuRomseySaint]

Why didn't you shoot him?

 

Unfortunately that would be murder.

 

Whilst I was over there though, he should have indeed been killed, but the UFF and UVF went for him on the same evening without realising, and blew their cover. UFF fired at him with a 2.2 which just bounced off his car, as a result they took a different route, if they had travelled a mile further up the road the UVF where waiting there with an RPG which WOULD have killed him.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

Do those victims families feel better now that a newly elected PM has apologised, we killed a member of your family but we are sorry, "oh, your sorry, ok then" conversely if the IRA were to do the same would it be roundly accepted by those it affected the most ? Is it about Justice ?

Those on both sides will have a story, too many innocents have been killed, lets just hope those times are never repeated, for all.

[GenevaSaint]

Unfortunately that would be murder.

 

Whilst I was over there though, he should have indeed been killed, but the UFF and UVF went for him on the same evening without realising, and blew their cover. UFF fired at him with a 2.2 which just bounced off his car, as a result they took a different route, if they had travelled a mile further up the road the UVF where waiting there with an RPG which WOULD have killed him.

 

Didn't seem to worry the para's though did it

[alpine_saint]

Didn't seem to worry the para's though did it

 

I suggest you check what "murder" entails.

 

The paras did not commit murder. And you would have trouble making manslaughter stick too.

[Mao Cap]

Christ knows what shooting unarmed civilians/finishing wounded people off/shooting them after they found them hiding in a stairwell was if it wasn't murder. Funny sort of self-defence TBH.

[alpine_saint]

Christ knows what shooting unarmed civilians/finishing wounded people off/shooting them after they found them hiding in a stairwell was if it wasn't murder. Funny sort of self-defence TBH.

 

Who said it was self-defence (though I still believe shots were fired by the other side)

 

So according to you its either murder or self-defence. An understanding totally devoid of subtlety.

[Mao Cap]

Whatever, I can't be arsed to go into one of your endless tit-for-tat arguments. They're murderers, in the same way that the IRA or UVF are murderers.

[alpine_saint]

Fine. Accept that I dont agree and we can move on.

 

I am more for reconcilliation and peace in Ulster than finger-pointing and sloganising b*ll*cks anyway.