Bloody Sunday enquiry

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

What do we think then? Cameron apologises for the incident and to be fair to him, it's more than Blair did; even though Blair did over see the entire peace process.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

[norwaysaint]

Makes you proud to be British, doesn't it.

[Thedelldays]

now, in return...I wonder if the IRA will apologise for any deaths...?

[jeff leopard]

I’m sure being a soldier in NI during the troubles was a really tough gig, but nothing excuses Bloody Sunday or how the army treated the Irish in general. Most of the torture techniques in by the Americans were widely used by the British against the Irish. Heavy handed tactics only led to more violence, there was only peace when the Govt started talking to the ‘terrorists’.

 

The guilty, those that lied and those that committed murder, must be punished.

[Badger]

I’m sure being a soldier in NI during the troubles was a really tough gig, but nothing excuses Bloody Sunday or how the army treated the Irish in general. Most of the torture techniques in by the Americans were widely used by the British against the Irish. Heavy handed tactics only led to more violence, there was only peace when the Govt started talking to the ‘terrorists’.

 

The guilty, those that lied and those that committed murder, must be punished.

 

Strange that,as many of the murderers were released from prison as part of the peace process.

[Lord Duckhunter]

It was a shameful episode in the history of Britains involvement in NI, but there have also been many many more shameful acts perpetrated by the Republicans. I find it beyond belief that Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams seem to come out of the whole peace procees smelling of roses. McGuinness, who the enquiry found, was carring a sub machine gun, is now deputy first minister and previous to that was education minister.Only in the warped world of Ulster politics could this happen.

 

My personal opinion is that Ireland belongs to the Irish and should have been handed back to them fully, rather than broken up, but that's easy to say sat here in sunny Dorset in 2010.I have very good friends from Dublin, and although they have a romantic notion of a united Ireland, find the IRA and the acts they carried out abhorrent. They want nothing to do with the North or any of the leading figures in this terrible period of their history.

 

Although the British army acted against the law and helped recruit hundreds if not thousends of Ulster youths to the IRA's cause, I dont think 60 year old retired troops should be forced through the courts to face charges, when Macguinnes, Adams ect are running that Country. Lets just hope that this enquiry can give the families some sort of clousure, and that it in someway helps to cement the peace procees.

[jeff leopard]

Strange that,as many of the murderers were released from prison as part of the peace process.

 

*whoosh*

 

that was the sound of a swing and a miss

 

I sincerely hope that the way the army operates now is in stark contrast to how it acted in NI, if not, the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan will end in humiliation and failure (again), making this country a much more dangerous place, and the deaths of all those troops and civilians completely pointless.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

now, in return...I wonder if the IRA will apologise for any deaths...?

The people killed were not in the IRA.

[Thedelldays]

*whoosh*

 

that was the sound of a swing and a miss

 

I sincerely hope that the way the army operates now is in stark contrast to how it acted in NI, if not, the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan will end in humiliation and failure (again), making this country a much more dangerous place, and the deaths of all those troops and civilians completely pointless.

but those who have actually been there will tell you the complete opposite..

[Thedelldays]

The people killed were not in the IRA.

and many the IRA killed were not in the British Army

[AndyNorthernSaints]

and many the IRA killed were not in the British Army

Well you said "now in return" will the IRA apologise..... on a thread on the Bloody Sunday enquiry where only innocent people were killed by the British Army.

[Thedelldays]

yes, in return...we have open up something very tragic and openly apologise for it...we never had to, we never even had to talk about it every again..

would be nice, if the IRA would do the same..

 

it is easy to sit here now in disgust at the actions..but the IRA played a massive part in the tensions that lead to tradigy that day

[bridge too far]

Whilst I can't even begin to understand the tensions on both sides at that time, I do very firmly believe that the military, like the police, should be upholders of the law.

 

If they start to break the law, then is it any wonder that people react to their wrongdoing.

 

If any soldiers are to be brought to book, I sincerely hope their commanders also are, however high up they might be / have been.

[GenevaSaint]

What do we think then? Cameron apologises for the incident and to be fair to him, it's more than Blair did; even though Blair did over see the entire peace process.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

 

In fairness Thorpe, Blair did set the enquiry running.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Whilst not wishing to gloss over the disgraceful behaviour of the British Army,if people like McGuinness weren't carrying submachine guns to a "peaceful protest" march, the outcome may have been very different.Do not under any circumstances believe that McGuinness wouldn't have used this to gun down Brits. That is the circumstances these boys were operataing under, and it's hardly a surprise that some over reacted.This has to be placed in the context of NI in the 1970's not Britain in 2010.

[GenevaSaint]

....

Edited 15 June, 2010 by GenevaSaint
Error on reply

[norwaysaint]

yes, in return...we have open up something very tragic and openly apologise for it...we never had to, we never even had to talk about it every again..

would be nice, if the IRA would do the same..

 

it is easy to sit here now in disgust at the actions..but the IRA played a massive part in the tensions that lead to tradigy that day

 

Well then you've got to go back the next step haven't you. Then, the British have to apologise again. I take it you know the history of why there is a situation in Northern Ireland in the first place.

 

What happened on Bloody Sunday was a one sided attack, that's been recognised now, don't try to justify it.

[GenevaSaint]

Whilst not wishing to gloss over the disgraceful behaviour of the British Army,if people like McGuinness weren't carrying submachine guns to a "peaceful protest" march, the outcome may have been very different.Do not under any circumstances believe that McGuinness wouldn't have used this to gun down Brits. That is the circumstances these boys were operataing under, and it's hardly a surprise that some over reacted.This has to be placed in the context of NI in the 1970's not Britain in 2010.

 

But he didn't though did he (McGuiness), that's the point surely.

[GenevaSaint]

Well then you've got to go back the next step haven't you. Then, the British have to apologise again. I take it you know the history of why there is a situation in Northern Ireland in the first place.

What happened on Bloody Sunday was a one sided attack, that's been recognised now, don't try to justify it.

 

We'll have Dune on here in a moment trying to justify the actions of these soldiers. Lets not forget they lied through their teeth.

[Thedelldays]

But he didn't though did he (McGuiness), that's the point surely.

 

well, he was...he was armed

[OldNick]

The people who were killed it has been found were innocent.

We can sit in judgement of the troops here and now, but I doubt any of us would not have been trigger happy in the situation they had found themselves.

Watching the smug look of McGuissness and Admas who both have been thought to have killed Policemen and soldiers let alone protestant civilians will not help.

[cryoman1965]

Well you said "now in return" will the IRA apologise..... on a thread on the Bloody Sunday enquiry where only innocent people were killed by the British Army.

 

Please, what are you on? You should do a bit of research into some of the awful acts the IRA (Sinn Fein, Maginniss is now running the bloody country and was there with a weapon on the day!!!) carried out over the years on innocent people in England!!!! Guildford Pub bombing, Manchester city centre, Numerous in London.

 

Also attacks on British bases in England and off duty soldiers in N.I.

Pub in Ballykelly, Einniskillen bus, Armagh club.

 

There are very many other to mention and countless innocent people lost their lives through THEIR barbaric acts.

 

The quote from Sinn Fein when these acts occurred was "unfortunatly sometimes innocent people get injured in our war to have a united Ireland." The killing of troops had started way before these acts in Derry

so shooting soldiers had already become Fair game to the Feckers.

 

I don't condone the actions of the troops on the day but it is a 2 way street when it comes apologies. I havn't heard any for the people in England. All the IRA that murdered people are now free to wlk around after the good friday agreement.

[GenevaSaint]

well, he was...he was armed

 

Yeh I know, but he didn't shoot any British Soldiers though did he. He *may* have, but he didn't actually do anything did he. Read the report TDD, innocent victims shot, one was shot while laying mortally wounded, one was on his hands and knees crawling away. Then there are the lies about the petrol bombs, no one has every found evidence there were any, plus the we were shot at first lies. No evidence of either fact that the soldiers put forward in their defence.

 

I know you're in the armed forces, but please, don't try to justify this atrocious act, dare I say it crime.

[GenevaSaint]

Please, what are you on? You should do a bit of research into some of the awful acts the IRA (Sinn Fein, Maginniss is now running the bloody country and was there with a weapon on the day!!!) carried out over the years on innocent people in England!!!! Guildford Pub bombing, Manchester city centre, Numerous in London.

 

Also attacks on British bases in England and off duty soldiers in N.I.

Pub in Ballykelly, Einniskillen bus, Armagh club.

 

There are very many other to mention and countless innocent people lost their lives through THEIR barbaric acts.

 

The quote from Sinn Fein when these acts occurred was "unfortunatly sometimes innocent people get injured in our war to have a united Ireland." The killing of troops had started way before these acts in Derry

so shooting soldiers had already become Fair game to the Feckers.

 

I don't condone the actions of the troops on the day but it is a 2 way street when it comes apologies. I havn't heard any for the people in England. All the IRA that murdered people are now free to wlk around after the good friday agreement.

 

Wrong + Wrong = Right? Please, those were heinous acts on that day

 

The IRA, INLA, UVF all carried out acts of violence that were awful, it's not one way traffic. Oh and btw, the unionists are also walking free.

[Thedelldays]

Yeh I know, but he didn't shoot any British Soldiers though did he. He *may* have, but he didn't actually do anything did he. Read the report TDD, innocent victims shot, one was shot while laying mortally wounded, one was on his hands and knees crawling away. Then there are the lies about the petrol bombs, no one has every found evidence there were any, plus the we were shot at first lies. No evidence of either fact that the soldiers put forward in their defence.

 

I know you're in the armed forces, but please, don't try to justify this atrocious act, dare I say it crime.

 

 

 

im not justifying....it is sooo easy to sit here in 2010 far away from that day...easy to sit here and pass judgement on that day..

yes, we have been told, and accept that what the soliders did that day was wrong and should never have happened..

 

however, there is far more to the story than that..? unless you think that the soldiers just bored and thought they would go out and kill a few "paddys"...

 

Army training, briefings, tactics, intel would have all played a part in the wrong doings of that day...as well as the tensions that were created with the help of knowing known terrorists were in the crowd carrying deadly weapons who would not think twice about killing ANYONE british...

 

there were known IRA snipers out that day, there were known terrorists...who wanted anyone british in "their" land dead on the spot..throw that in with everything else that could and did go wrong...you are only going to get one thing...DISASTER

 

well, I am glad the right outcome has been found and quite proud that after such judgement has been found that MY country stood up and apologised for its actions...which is a hell of a alot further than most nations would go (sadly)...

Edited 15 June, 2010 by Thedelldays

[OldNick]

Yeh I know, but he didn't shoot any British Soldiers though did he. He *may* have, but he didn't actually do anything did he. .

He never had the courage to come out and show himself .

I dont want a long debate about it Geneva, I recall the cowardly attacks by the 'Freedom fighters' to some 'Terrorists'to me. The subject causes passions to rise and so it is best not to get too deep into it.

I think I recall a bomb was defused in Southampton that was aimed at my brothers age group when they were targetting the countries nightlife in the 70's.

The relatives have had their apology, something the victims from the other atrocities have never had.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

Please, what are you on? You should do a bit of research into some of the awful acts the IRA (Sinn Fein, Maginniss is now running the bloody country and was there with a weapon on the day!!!) carried out over the years on innocent people in England!!!! Guildford Pub bombing, Manchester city centre, Numerous in London.

 

Also attacks on British bases in England and off duty soldiers in N.I.

Pub in Ballykelly, Einniskillen bus, Armagh club.

 

There are very many other to mention and countless innocent people lost their lives through THEIR barbaric acts.

 

The quote from Sinn Fein when these acts occurred was "unfortunatly sometimes innocent people get injured in our war to have a united Ireland." The killing of troops had started way before these acts in Derry

so shooting soldiers had already become Fair game to the Feckers.

 

I don't condone the actions of the troops on the day but it is a 2 way street when it comes apologies. I havn't heard any for the people in England. All the IRA that murdered people are now free to wlk around after the good friday agreement.

 

I am not condoning what the IRA did or support an organisation that kills innocent people. Where in my posts am i? please explain? This enquiry was about the innocent civilians that were killed that day not about the history of the IRA. Maybe you should do some research like reading the report/news item or even maybe reading the posts properly? Working in Manchester on the day of the bombings up here i'm more than aware of the history of UK attacks.

[Thedelldays]

I am not condoning what the IRA did or support an organisation that kills innocent people. Where in my posts am i? please explain? This enquiry was about the innocent civilians that were killed that day not about the history of the IRA. Maybe you should do some research like reading the report/news item or even maybe reading the posts properly? Working in Manchester on the day of the bombings up here i'm more than aware of the history of UK attacks.

 

 

It would be nice to have a multi-gazillion pound enquiry into various republican atrocities, with alleged Irish government collusion, but as all the paramilitaries have been pardoned and released from prison I presume it would be tricky.

 

How an enquiry 30 years after an event can work out who fired the first shot is beyond me. The obvious proximity of firearms and petrol, nail bombs (even with one of the victims who was running away) other bombs etc makes me think that all is not as innocent as is made out. But I think we all knew the conclusions this enquiry would draw.

 

Regardless, seeing Martin McGuiness' smug face on tv programme thingie proclaiming 'victory for justice' will make me sick to the core. Wonder how long til the other scum Adams appears

[CB Saint]

I’m sure being a soldier in NI during the troubles was a really tough gig, but nothing excuses Bloody Sunday or how the army treated the Irish in general. Most of the torture techniques in by the Americans were widely used by the British against the Irish. Heavy handed tactics only led to more violence, there was only peace when the Govt started talking to the ‘terrorists’.

 

The guilty, those that lied and those that committed murder, must be punished.

 

I don't think the soldiers should be prosecuted. Whilst what they did was wrong, they should be covered by the amnesty granted to all "combatants" as part of the Good Friday agreement. I heard their solicitor say that whilst the judicial review has drawn the conclusion that the actions of the soldiers was unlawful, there is so much contradicatory evidence that if would be difficult to secure a criminal prosecution.

[solentstars]

murder of innocent civilians covered up by the government at that time is disgusting.

40 years for the family s to get justice at last.

they had no weapons and one guy shot in the back twice,the inquiry was damning of those involved that day.

its not about making excuses ie ira or british soldiers .

[Thedelldays]

murder of innocent civilians covered up by the government at that time is disgusting.

40 years for the family s to get justice at last.

they had no weapons and one guy shot in the back twice,the inquiry was damning of those involved that day.

its not about making excuses ie ira or british soldiers .

 

There certainly seems to be some huge gaps in conclusions drawn, at least from the little information I have seen. IE Martin McGuiness was there, had a machine gun but it cannot be said if he fired it or that Lord Saville said that one victim had nail bombs but he was running away when he was shot.!!!! These don't to me seem the actions of a purely peaceful protest. I can't condone the killing of innocents but in such a chaotic situation it must have been very difficult for both sides

[solentstars]

The prime minister said the Saville inquiry showed soldiers lied about their involvement in the killings, and that all of those who died were innocent.

 

He said the inquiry was absolutely clear and there were no ambiguities about the conclusions. "What happened on Bloody Sunday was both unjustified and unjustifiable. It was wrong," Cameron told the Commons

[Thedelldays]

The prime minister said the Saville inquiry showed soldiers lied about their involvement in the killings, and that all of those who died were innocent.

 

He said the inquiry was absolutely clear and there were no ambiguities about the conclusions. "What happened on Bloody Sunday was both unjustified and unjustifiable. It was wrong," Cameron told the Commons

 

 

sure...he said that the enquiry should be taken as FACT...and I am doing nothing but that...the same enquiry that found what happend totally unlawful (which you and I agree) said that the current deputy first minister of N. Ireland probably had a machine gun but unsure if it was fired..and that one of the victims who was shot was in possession of nail bombs..

 

if you take the conclusion as fact then you should take the enquiry findings as a whole as "fact"

[solentstars]

sure...he said that the enquiry should be taken as FACT...and I am doing nothing but that...the same enquiry that found what happend totally unlawful (which you and I agree) said that the current deputy first minister of N. Ireland probably had a machine gun but unsure if it was fired..and that one of the victims who was shot was in possession of nail bombs..

 

if you take the conclusion as fact then you should take the enquiry findings as a whole as "fact"

 

sorry delldays but the enquiry was one of the most damming ever,thats why cameron apologised for the actions of those who did wrong,they are even named and one officer even disobeyed his superiors with his actions that day.

i,m glad innocent people who grieved for their beloved ones today finally got justice and the truth after 40 years.

[Thedelldays]

you are right..I hope this draws a line under all this and they move on and try and live together...

any thoughts of criminal proceedings should be stopped right now as it will open too many old wounds...seem completely and utterly hypocritical and to be fair...too much contradictory evidence would get in the way

[alpine_saint]

What do we think then? Cameron apologises for the incident and to be fair to him, it's more than Blair did; even though Blair did over see the entire peace process.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

 

No he didnt. The major breakthrough was down to John Major.

[alpine_saint]

But he didn't though did he (McGuiness), that's the point surely.

 

Really ? The Saville enquiry indicates quite clear that there is a suspicion that the Official IRA DID fire back and that it is impossible to exclude McGuinness from having fired too.

[alpine_saint]

i,m glad innocent people who grieved for their beloved ones today finally got justice and the truth after 40 years.

 

How about justice and truth for the grieving families of people killed by the IRA ? Dont they deserve it ?

 

I must have missed the Omagh convictions...

[jeff leopard]

but those who have actually been there will tell you the complete opposite..

 

well, of course they would, for the sake of their sanity, no dount they're working their ar$es off but what have they got to show for it? the americans call it mowing the lawn, they go into a taliban stronghold, clear and stabalise it, knowing full well thet the moment they leave town, the taliban will return. just about all the top brass have admitted that they're fighting a losing battle because the locals don't want us there. they don't trust us to protect them in the long run if they side against the taliban, and who can blame them? both obama and cameroon have admitted they want out as soon as possible, and i imagine they are talking about a couple of years as opposed to a couple of generations.

 

the reason i'm banging on about Afghanistan is because the saville enquiry needs to be a watershed moment for the military. it has to be held accountable for its actions. bloody sunday did wonders for IRA recruitment and funding, and for galvinising a generation of Irish men against british rule. if we make that kind of mistake in Afghanistan then its game over.

[Thedelldays]

Jeff. Wow, I bow to your suoerior knowledge on how it works over on the ground in afghanistan

I'm sure you have seen over there a great deal to speak on such authority.

 

 

I can't help but think that should the enquiry have come up with the opposite verdict you would have cried. "Cover up"

 

Now, I still think it would be nice if the deputy first minister if n.ireland came out and apologised for say (let's pluck one exanple of many) the warrington bombings???

 

Would you champion such a request? Nah, doubt it.

[buctootim]

Now, I still think it would be nice if the deputy first minister if n.ireland came out and apologised for say (let's pluck one exanple of many) the warrington bombings???

 

Would you champion such a request? Nah, doubt it.

 

Gerry Adams made that apology.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7071981.stm

[solentstars]

How about justice and truth for the grieving families of people killed by the IRA ? Dont they deserve it ?

 

I must have missed the Omagh convictions...

trust you to change the subject,we are talking about the innocent victims of bloody sunday not about the ira . .

[solentstars]

you are right..I hope this draws a line under all this and they move on and try and live together...

any thoughts of criminal proceedings should be stopped right now as it will open too many old wounds...seem completely and utterly hypocritical and to be fair...too much contradictory evidence would get in the way

i agree with you at least the truth has come out what happened that day and its time to move on.

[LGTL]

The IRA have killed many innocent victims, that is not up for discussion, but that is the whole point. Everyone knows that they were innocent. For nigh on 40 years, the victims of Bloody Sunday have been tarnished but today they were found to be totally innocent, and an unreserved apology from Cameron was what was needed.

[John B]

How about justice and truth for the grieving families of people killed by the IRA ? Dont they deserve it ?

 

I must have missed the Omagh convictions...

 

Obviously there has been wanton murder in Ireland for years a lot perpertrated by the British State.

 

 

 

The dead from Bloody Sunday have now been found innocent of charges of being terrorists which a corrupt Government Machine found them guilty in 1972.

 

 

 

 

If the state can not be trusted it is no surprise that numerous Republicans took up Arms in the 1970s

[Thedelldays]

john...why is this enquiry right, and the other wrong..?

 

what if this is wrong and the verdict a result of political will..?

 

either way....time to move on

[John B]

john...why is this enquiry right, and the other wrong..?

 

what if this is wrong and the verdict a result of political will..?

 

either way....time to move on

 

 

 

I think it is important that the State owns up to its mistakes which in this case it has .

 

If citizens cannot march peacefully without being shot by the Army then we are in the realms of state like China is today and Russia and South Africa in the past

 

Over all Britain did not cover itself with glory during its imperial past which has caused numerous deaths and conflicts as a result

 

I am not condoning the IRA - I even had a heated Argument with a member trying to collect money outside Christ the King Church in Bitterne many years ago but I do understand that they may have valid reasons for feeling hard done by succesive British Governments

[Amesbury Saint]

Very sad the loss of lives on all sides in N.I.

Hopefully N.I .can move on

[alpine_saint]

trust you to change the subject,we are talking about the innocent victims of bloody sunday not about the ira . .

 

Strange, I thought the issue of justice and truth for all sides was very pertient to a lasting peace in Ulster...

 

Besides, it was the IRA who decided to piggy-back terrorist activity on to this peaceful rights march.

[Mao Cap]

Another milestone for Ulster. Great to see.