What if

[John Smith]

I think the realisim is that Mr Liebherr is in it for as much money he can make out of it. If this was not the case then there would not be this aggressive stature that the club has adopted with regards to ticketing etc. If the owner genuinely was just here for sh*ts and giggles so to speak, then he would want to see the stadium full each week and would price accordingly.

 

It is clear to myself that the actions of SFC Ltd in the last year suggest that as part of their 5 year plan, Cortese has been targeted to maximise revenue immediately rather than wait for the riches of the Premiership. I suspect Mr Lieberr and Mr Cortese have sat down and worked out how much money is needed to achieve each goal, and what money will be budgeted for transfers etc.

 

Cortese no doubt is on a very lucrative bonus for achieving certain profitability and operational targets, which explains the clubs actions.

 

In short, Liebherr has tasked Cortese to achieve the 5 year plan with as little help from Liebherrs wallet as possible. Obviously if Cortese achieves this then he will be rewarded accordingly. All in my honest opinion of course.

 

I think people shouldn't dream that we are being bankrolled and we have found ourself an Abramovich, although we have the security of not needing financing, I don't believe Liebherr will be out of pocket at any point during the next 5 years, with the exception of the initial purchase and possibly player purchases.

 

I didn't say he wasn;t looking to make money, I didn;t say he would lose money, what I'm saying is that Hypo specified a profit of £200million! Taking into account all those factors I've stated above, I don;t think you;ve covered it at all. Stating that I may think he's in it for "sh*ts and giggles so to speak,", doesn;t cover it, I never intimated as such and I think you;ve missed the point by a mile, as did hypo. I also never stated that I believed we'd be bankrolled, nor intimated that Nc wasn;t ona bonus, etc, etc. So, just like Hypo, you have answered what you want to answer and nowhere near what I'm suggesting.

 

HOW IS ML GOING TO MAKE A £200MILLION POUND PROFIT (LESS £12MILL INITIAL INVESTMENT) WITHOUT INVESTING ANY MONEY??????????????

 

AND IF THIS IS THE CASE, WHY WASN;T THERE A QUEUE A MILE LONG AROUND SMS TO BUY THIS GOLDMINE???????????????

 

£200 MILLION IN 5 YEARS WITH A £12MILLION INITIAL OUTLAY, WHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD COULD YOU DO THAT IN TODAYS MARKET?????????????????????

 

Hope that's clear, but people do keep missing the point by miles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NickG]

I would be very surprised if any owner wanted to be unsuccessful.

 

 

Cortese wants to be successful as well as making a reasonable return on investment

 

exactly, we should be excited by his ambition

[hypochondriac]

no i specified at least 200 mil earnings from being established in the prem (of wich much would be profit.) if they decided to sell should we get to the prem they will make a guge profit

[hypochondriac]

and i doubt he will need to invest a lot at all. Because we have no running costs everything we make goes towards buying players and wages and training grounds etc. An additional 10 million investment can easily propel us to the prem. Even 20 million would bring a huge profit. How much do you think sfc with no debt in the prem is worth?

[John B]

and i doubt he will need to invest a lot at all. Because we have no running costs everything we make goes towards buying players and wages and training grounds etc. An additional 10 million investment can easily propel us to the prem. Even 20 million would bring a huge profit. How much do you think sfc with no debt in the prem is worth?

 

 

I agree with what you are saying and if the club was sold after gaining promotion to the Premier League I would have thought at least £50 Million but no doubt would depend on the quality of players on the books.

 

 

Not sure it would be a good investment at that time though but I am willing to be convinced otherwise

Edited 16 June, 2010 by John B

[Foxstone]

What if we continue to ride the optimism and upbeat environment that is ML and NC and Saints?

 

The what if being suggested wouldnt bother me. In order to be as profitable as you are suggesting (ie not bothered about some fans) we'd need to have been massively successful, eg like Manure.

 

I only want to support a successful team. Bring on the persecution of the fans!

 

Agree with you there Robbie my old friend.

We were in deep doo doo under previous regimes that almost saw us cease to exist

 

These guys have not only saved us from that but they are building an infrastructure and soundly costed future for us that would be the envy of all clubs outside the Prem, and possibly a few within the Prem.

 

Right now I am prepared to cut them any slack,and cannot envisage this changing in the forseeable future

[hypochondriac]

I agree with what you are saying and if the club was sold after gaining promotion to the Premier League I would have thought at least £50 Million but no doubt would depend on the quality of players on the books.

 

 

Not sure it would be a good investment at that time though but I am willing to be convinced otherwise

 

At least 50 million but maybe more. Especially when taking into account the 90 million that Premiership status is worth for ONE SEASON! They would make a handsome profit whatever the figure is so the argument still stands up.

[Dellman]

Marcus and Cortese haven't got where they are by letting down or ignoring their customers, they've got where they are by providing what the customers need, so what is the point of this thread?

[scotty]

Marcus and Cortese haven't got where they are by letting down or ignoring their customers, they've got where they are by providing what the customers need, so what is the point of this thread?

 

its had 159 replies, so there must be a point.

[hypochondriac]

Does anyone know how to get in contact with Nick? I cannot seem to log into TUI.

[Smirking_Saint]

He is heavily upgrading the infrastructure, piecing together a fantastic championship winning team and i would only assume that this would happen again in the NPC and then arguably build a team in the hope of retaining PL status.

 

Anyone that believes that ML and NC are in it 'for the love of the game' are sadly moronic. Also, anyone that believes as fans we have a definitive right to choose how our club is run is also a bit deluded.

 

There are far too many people on this forum ATM chucking their toys out of the pram because of measures being imposed to create a stable and progressive club, what is so wrong with that ?

 

For once in my saints supporting lifetime we have a team and a direction that shows some real ambition, there were points in our freefall that i thought we would never make it back to the prem until i was an old man, that hurt. Now we seem to be on the up and have a future.

 

Do i believe that ML/NC are in this for profiteering ? Of course i do !! Am i bothered ?? No, at the end of the day the prices will never be too costly as it will water down his customer base. Also in order to sell at a good price we will need to be stable, debt free and have PL status.

 

So what exactly have i got to be worried about ?

[StuRomseySaint]

Does anyone know how to get in contact with Nick? I cannot seem to log into TUI.

 

I am actually meeting him for a pint today, to discuss my non-liking of the Trust and stuff I have posted on here with regards to the Trust.

 

As I said, my opinions don't change just because I am sat behind a computer, pity the same can't be said about most of the posters on here.

[StuRomseySaint]

Marcus and Cortese haven't got where they are by letting down or ignoring their customers, they've got where they are by providing what the customers need, so what is the point of this thread?

 

The fact they have let down and ignored their customers, customers which are a million worlds different from banking customers of industrial commercial clients, and they are not providing what their customers need if they have recieved near over 100 complaints either directly or through the Echo.

 

So in summary, they ARE ignoring their customers and letting them down and they ARE NOT providing what a large number of SFC customers need, so what was the point of your post?

[hypochondriac]

I am actually meeting him for a pint today, to discuss my non-liking of the Trust and stuff I have posted on here with regards to the Trust.

 

As I said, my opinions don't change just because I am sat behind a computer, pity the same can't be said about most of the posters on here.

 

If you reach any conclusions then feel free to let me know. If you want to discuss this thread then go ahead.

[John B]

Marcus and Cortese haven't got where they are by letting down or ignoring their customers, they've got where they are by providing what the customers need, so what is the point of this thread?

 

Clearly they are not doing it at St Mary's because some want installment plans while others including me do not want to pay extra ie a booking fee

[up and away]

At least 50 million but maybe more. Especially when taking into account the 90 million that Premiership status is worth for ONE SEASON! They would make a handsome profit whatever the figure is so the argument still stands up.

 

This is absolutely laughable, just where exactly are you going to find the person who will be prepared to pay that amount for Saints? Additionally if this was a viable investment plan there would be so many others doing so and the leagues littered with these profitable examples, but there is a distinct absence of any such proof. If no one would come and take such a fan base and infrastructure from Mike Ashley for Newcastle at a knock down price, what chance have the others! Just look at Sunderland and the money pumped in there to just see them comfortably off the relegation zone, the facts don't back up football being a good investment.

 

When you consider this as an investment for Liebherr you have to compare it against his other businesses and investment. So just adding up the basic sums gets you no where near what that money can earn if he just keeps doing what he was previously. Just to exist in the Premier league you need to commit most of your income to wages, otherwise you are not competitive. Just look at the majority of clubs and running at break even is a result, with only Arsenal standing out solely due to the exceptional strength of Wenger in the transfer market.

 

Saints are more of a mode of enjoyment for Liebherr, not an investment. That does not mean he is prepared to throw money wildly in the direction of success, there has to be an acceptable loss he is prepared to accept for the pleasure returned. Even so we were the 4th highest spenders in all the UK leagues during the last January transfer window.

[StuRomseySaint]

 

Saints are more of a mode of enjoyment for Liebherr, not an investment. That does not mean he is prepared to throw money wildly in the direction of success, there has to be an acceptable loss he is prepared to accept for the pleasure returned. Even so we were the 4th highest spenders in all the UK leagues during the last January transfer window.

 

THAT comment is laughable.

 

I seriously and honestly feel sorry for you and other fans who think that. There is serious money to be made if the football club is run in the right way, and that is exactly what Liebherr is here for. Granted it's a fun way of making money for him, but please don't be so naive to think he is effectively going to pay a few million a year in order to have a bit of fun.

[hypochondriac]

I can't be bothered to debate with up and away. I apologise because my comment goes against the spirit of the thread but I'm simply not going to comment on up and away because it's like banging my head against a wall.

[John B]

I can't be bothered to debate with up and away. I apologise because my comment goes against the spirit of the thread but I'm simply not going to comment on up and away because it's like banging my head against a wall.

 

He does have one point though - Would anyone be interested in buying a Premiership club for £50m which may well struggle to survive

[beancounter saint]

I don't suppose Liebherr is planning on consistently making a loss but generally I agree with up and away's assessment. Unlike those with the opposite view on this thread he has actually posted some examples to back up the suggestion that most clubs don't make much profit, even in the Premier League. I'm sure it can be argued that clubs such as Pompey and Hull have been horrendously mismanaged and bled dry of money by various parties so they might be bad examples, but the fact is that very few of the others are making much money either.

 

It doesn't seem to make sense to argue that, on one hand, the removal of the instalment plan means that Cortese has no clue how to run a football club and then to imply that he will magically find the formula for making a fortune out of it where most appear to be failing.

[Joensuu]

THAT comment is laughable.

 

I seriously and honestly feel sorry for you and other fans who think that. There is serious money to be made if the football club is run in the right way, and that is exactly what Liebherr is here for. Granted it's a fun way of making money for him, but please don't be so naive to think he is effectively going to pay a few million a year in order to have a bit of fun.

 

The is no way Markus is here purely for the money, because the potential amount of profit he might make is a tiny fraction of his net worth. Quite simply, for the amount of time invested, and the risks involved, why would Markus invest so much energy and effort if all he gets out of it is to increase his net worth by a maximum of 1 or 2 percent.

 

Markus is choosing to spend a large amount of his free time travelling to the UK, to watch a football team. If he is in this purely for the money that would be a completely nonsensical use of his time. He has under £20 million on an investment, yet chooses to spend at least 3 days a month travelling to the UK to watch games. In other words, he spends upwards of 10% of his time overseeing an investment he has staked around 0.5% of his net worth into. That would be like me investing say a couple of hundred quid into an ISA, then spending 3 days a month watching the interest add up, and comparing the market for better rates.

 

I would agree with your analysis had Markus only had say £100 million to his name (he could stand to increase his net worth by say 40 or 50%). But for someone of Markus' wealth this doesn't stack up, the potential profit is simply too small when compared to the time he has invested into the project. There simply has to be a reason beyond profit to explain his investment. Sure, he won't want to lose money on his investment, but Markus won't be too concerned whether his profit is £5m or £50 million - the numbers are simply too small.

 

As it can't be purely about the money, IMO either: Markus must genuinely enjoy the thrill of owning and watching a football team; or Markus must genuinely enjoy the status of owning a football team.

[hypochondriac]

He does have one point though - Would anyone be interested in buying a Premiership club for £50m which may well struggle to survive

 

What would you value Saints as? Do you not think people would be interested should we get to the Prem? We have infinitely more appeal than Pompey, Hull, Burnley, Boro, even the likes of Birmingham, Blackburn and Stoke.

[hypochondriac]

The is no way Markus is here purely for the money, because the potential amount of profit he might make is a tiny fraction of his net worth. Quite simply, for the amount of time invested, and the risks involved, why would Markus invest so much energy and effort if all he gets out of it is to increase his net worth by a maximum of 1 or 2 percent.

 

Markus is choosing to spend a large amount of his free time travelling to the UK, to watch a football team. If he is in this purely for the money that would be a completely nonsensical use of his time. He has under £20 million on an investment, yet chooses to spend at least 3 days a month travelling to the UK to watch games. In other words, he spends upwards of 10% of his time overseeing an investment he has staked around 0.5% of his net worth into. That would be like me investing say a couple of hundred quid into an ISA, then spending 3 days a month watching the interest add up, and comparing the market for better rates.

 

I would agree with your analysis had Markus only had say £100 million to his name (he could stand to increase his net worth by say 40 or 50%). But for someone of Markus' wealth this doesn't stack up, the potential profit is simply too small when compared to the time he has invested into the project. There simply has to be a reason beyond profit to explain his investment. Sure, he won't want to lose money on his investment, but Markus won't be too concerned whether his profit is £5m or £50 million - the numbers are simply too small.

 

As it can't be purely about the money, IMO either: Markus must genuinely enjoy the thrill of owning and watching a football team; or Markus must genuinely enjoy the status of owning a football team.

 

It isn't just about the money for Markus but it is the primary factor IMO. The amount of profit he makes being a tiny amount of his overall worth is totally irrelevant. If I had a million quid but found a way of making £1,000 would I turn it down? Of course not.

 

Also it appears to be entirely about money for Cortese. Why else would he be here?

[up and away]

THAT comment is laughable.

 

I seriously and honestly feel sorry for you and other fans who think that. There is serious money to be made if the football club is run in the right way, and that is exactly what Liebherr is here for. Granted it's a fun way of making money for him, but please don't be so naive to think he is effectively going to pay a few million a year in order to have a bit of fun.

 

If that's the case, you will have absolutely no problem in identifying all these clubs that have shown to be such a great investment and the huge profits returned. They just do not exist along with football being a sound investment vehicle. We have the perfect example just up the road with Madejski and Reading. A very prudent approach, sensible calculated financial input and has built the cub up from League 1. He can't even sell on that nigh on perfect set up and he can't afford to keep bank rolling the club. Common sense should tell you that when even a modern, well set up club are struggling; this is not a profitable arena.

 

If Liebherr wanted to make more money he would have continued with his well formulated methods that have brought him billions, not wave bank notes over the bonfire. The only thing that can give a reward from owning a football club is the pleasure of watching the team progress. Something Liebherr is prepared to do within practical limitations.

[hypochondriac]

If that's the case, you will have absolutely no problem in identifying all these clubs that have shown to be such a great investment and the huge profits returned. They just do not exist along with football being a sound investment vehicle. We have the perfect example just up the road with Madejski and Reading. A very prudent approach, sensible calculated financial input and has built the cub up from League 1. He can't even sell on that nigh on perfect set up and he can't afford to keep bank rolling the club. Common sense should tell you that when even a modern, well set up club are struggling; this is not a profitable arena.

 

If Liebherr wanted to make more money he would have continued with his well formulated methods that have brought him billions, not wave bank notes over the bonfire. The only thing that can give a reward from owning a football club is the pleasure of watching the team progress. Something Liebherr is prepared to do within practical limitations.

 

What other club apart from Southampton could you have bought for 12 million with all the assets and geographic location that Southampton has? For 12 million there is simply no better deal in football that I can think of.

[hypochondriac]

I give up with you up and away as I have done so many other times down the years. If you resolutely refuse to consider another point of view then there is no point in discussing it.

[Dellman]

The fact they have let down and ignored their customers, customers which are a million worlds different from banking customers of industrial commercial clients, and they are not providing what their customers need if they have recieved near over 100 complaints either directly or through the Echo.

 

So in summary, they ARE ignoring their customers and letting them down and they ARE NOT providing what a large number of SFC customers need, so what was the point of your post?

They would let down the customers if they produced the sort of football we've suffered ever since we left the Premiership, they would let down the customers if we had a failing Academy and no future plans, they would let down the customers if they sold our best players. Instead they are making sure those days are over, three cheers!

[Joensuu]

It isn't just about the money for Markus but it is the primary factor IMO. The amount of profit he makes being a tiny amount of his overall worth is totally irrelevant. If I had a million quid but found a way of making £1,000 would I turn it down? Of course not.

 

But if you had a million quid, would you spend more than 10% of your time following your £1000 investment?

 

Also it appears to be entirely about money for Cortese. Why else would he be here?

 

There are plenty of reasons. Cortese is undoubtably a wealthy man in his own right. If you had enough money not to have to worry, and you were offered a well paid position in a completely different, challenging, and potentially very enjoyable industry, why not jump at the chance.

 

My guess is that Cortese is earning (and stands to earn) far less now than he did in his previous career. A top banker in Switzerland working with the super rich would easily be on more than even Peter Storrie could raise his own wage to.

[hypochondriac]

They would let down the customers if they produced the sort of football we've suffered ever since we left the Premiership, they would let down the customers if we had a failing Academy and no future plans, they would let down the customers if they sold our best players. Instead they are making sure those days are over, three cheers!

 

Is it not possible to let down your customers in more than one way then? Kudos for the good winning football of course, but does that then mean they are above criticism for the handling of other areas of the club?

[up and away]

What other club apart from Southampton could you have bought for 12 million with all the assets and geographic location that Southampton has? For 12 million there is simply no better deal in football that I can think of.

 

If the deal was so good we would have had a line of investors backed up to the end of the Avenue during administration. But all we got was a bunch of tyre kickers, Walter Mitty's and no brained idiots that had previously seen a Saints game. You take all the money Liebherr has spent, purchase price, purchase fees, investment in the people and infrastructure, salaries, transfer fees, then factor in what sort of return he can get on the international loan market with that sort of capital and you are no where near a sensible investment. The value of the club is only what someone is prepared to pay for it! Bearing in mind we are still in one of the worst economic climates ever, likey to get even worse. So after being on the market for so long without takers, why do you believe they are suddenly going to spring out of the woodwork now, giving over all this mythical profit to Liebherr? Even those rich fans we had like Gavyn Davies were not that blighted to see Saints as an investment.

 

Liebherr has retired, he no longer sees the need to keep adding millions to his portfolio, he does not even get involved with running the smallest aspect of the club. The package for Cortese alone will run into millions and the money for players just to keep you in the Premier the first season could easily exceed £50M, that's just to tread water. You don't have to spend that sort of money and see if you can get lucky like others have done on less but you are taking a WBA route with little certainty, not that you have that great an amount with splashing out £50M.

[hypochondriac]

How many people were aware of the deal to buy SFC and how many have 12 million disposable income to buy something and the time or motivation to actually run the thing. How much has Liebherr invested OF HIS OWN MONEY save the original purchase price and how much has the club simply invested money earnt from last season? I'm not discussing this further with you up and away because our opinions differ so greatly but just thought you would like to know that unsurprisingly I think you are totally wrong.

[Smirking_Saint]

He is heavily upgrading the infrastructure, piecing together a fantastic championship winning team and i would only assume that this would happen again in the NPC and then arguably build a team in the hope of retaining PL status.

 

Anyone that believes that ML and NC are in it 'for the love of the game' are sadly moronic. Also, anyone that believes as fans we have a definitive right to choose how our club is run is also a bit deluded.

 

There are far too many people on this forum ATM chucking their toys out of the pram because of measures being imposed to create a stable and progressive club, what is so wrong with that ?

 

For once in my saints supporting lifetime we have a team and a direction that shows some real ambition, there were points in our freefall that i thought we would never make it back to the prem until i was an old man, that hurt. Now we seem to be on the up and have a future.

 

Do i believe that ML/NC are in this for profiteering ? Of course i do !! Am i bothered ?? No, at the end of the day the prices will never be too costly as it will water down his customer base. Also in order to sell at a good price we will need to be stable, debt free and have PL status.

 

So what exactly have i got to be worried about ?

 

Nothing to worry about then ?