What if

[capitalsaint]

Want to bet that shirt sales will not be quite a bit higher this year? Almost definitely IMO. Anyway it's irrelevent because it's clearly a calculated gamble. SOme would say a similar calculated gamble to the one that meant they bought the club in the first place.

 

Even Dave Whelan, who loves Wigan, is now running the club so that they break even at least every year. What do you expect from our owners exactly?

[saintwarwick]

It was my understanding that there was a Credit Card booking fee last year, now there is a generic fee for bookings. I think that 2,500 booking fees per home game and 500 ( 1 booking fee for every 3 tickets purchased ) is if anything quite a conservative estimate. We had 8,000 non STH customers per game last season. Not to mention the 2,000 a game on average who 'walk-up' to the game and will be paying an extra £2 per game, which doesn't sound alot but is worth an extra £100,000 to the club a season.

 

Then you have the extra revenue from having a 1 year shirt, as the design is completely different to the standard kit, so when the 2012/2013 season kit is released, most people will buy again.

 

For the sake of this debate, I won't even use the increase in the casual crowd and walk-ups, which can be worth millions to the club, nor will I speculate about the increase in costs around the concourses, which I have no doubt will happen.

 

SFC is most definately being run as a business, which of course is a good thing, but the lack of sponsorship is more than made up in price increases in other departments, so let's not be naive to think it is a gift from the chairman, when clearly it is not.

Hey don't get me wrong, I don't care if they are in it to make money, it's business ffs but what you are talking about in response tio sponsership is purely speculation, you have no ground proof that we will make up in the loss of this money through other methods, if it happens great, if it don't then the owners will be proved to be doing a great job for the fans and not worried about lining their pockets.

[hypochondriac]

hypo, why would supporters who have had to suffer two relegations and the near-demise of their club EVER withdraw their support because the club are successful and so they have to pay a bit more? The nature of competitive sport is such that you try to win, all other factors are secondary to this. If somebody stops supporting Saints because they don't want to pay the price that comes with success (which, actually, would be not much more than mediocrity) then they are hypothetically deluded.

 

We supported Saints when they were at their lowest ebb, I'm sure that even in a hypothetical world we'd support them when successful.

 

Sorry I think you misunderstand me a bit. I was thinking of prices such as Chelseas which taking myself as an example I know there is no way I would be able to afford to go regularly. I was also speculating that if Cortese was acting in an improper manner, would there be a scenario where you would withdraw your support or at least express concern? If your answer is never then fair enough!

[hypochondriac]

Hey don't get me wrong, I don't care if they are in it to make money, it's business ffs but what you are talking about in response tio sponsership is purely speculation, you have no ground proof that we will make up in the loss of this money through other methods, if it happens great, if it don't then the owners will be proved to be doing a great job for the fans and not worried about lining their pockets.

 

Quite clearly, a number of things are being put in place for next year to increase revenue. It will be predicted that the special commemorative shirt will sell more than the shirts from last year. The 2 pound booking fee will increase revenue. Higher food and drink prices will increase revenue. Of course there is no definitive "proof" but it's pretty darn likely when you look at it!

[Dave Benson Phillips]

In what way? There is no proof yet that shirt sales will exceed other seasons and we are not guaranteed a place in the championship after this current next season so no way will we be able to negotiate a better deal? Everything is speculative, yes they will do things based on business but they have to hope that the business works in the first place. Us getting promoted will stand us in better stance but we have to get there first, if we don't succeed then we won't get what you are assuming we will get.

 

Although the shirt sales may not cover the full amount, I am sure that coupled with the away kit, it won't be far off.

 

Nothing comes for free in business. If Mr Liebherr and Mr Cortese wanted to give a gift to Southampton fans to celebrate 125 years, they would have done so by way of a discount or freeze in season ticket prices, a reduction in the cost of the shirt, or possibly free cup games.

 

All the club have done is jigged around the finances to make it look like a gesture. I note that when the kit came on sale, the club decided not to push on their original marketing ploy that it was indeed a gift. This no doubt was because of the bad PR which they created through the restrictive Season Tickets.

 

The easiest way I can explain it is to take Morrisons for example. They are currently offering 3 crates of beer for £18 - less than it costs them to buy.

 

Do you think they are simply doing a favour to the football fans around the land and offering them cheap booze? No, of course not. They will simply add the mark-up on to other World Cup related products such as BBQ's, BBQ food, televisions, wine, spirits etc etc. The offer lures you in, and without realising, you spend the money on other products ( at a more expensive price ) whilst in Morrisons... which the supermarket make a profit on which makes up for the loss on their offer product.

 

This is the best way I can think of explaining it. The club are highlighting the 'No Sponsor' in the hope it will detract from the other products, which have been subject to price increases.

 

As I have already suggested, there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Edited 15 June, 2010 by Dave Benson Phillips

[saintwarwick]

Want to bet that shirt sales will not be quite a bit higher this year? Almost definitely IMO. Anyway it's irrelevent because it's clearly a calculated gamble. SOme would say a similar calculated gamble to the one that meant they bought the club in the first place.

 

I think shirt sales go in line with ticket sales, in the premiership we had 24,000 season ticket holders, we have half that now. I guess we will sell quite a few shirt sells this season but not quite the same as then. As we become more successful then we will sell more, not just shirts but tickets as well. remember some people only want to support something that is successful and that is when we have to pay more. People like me will support through thick and thin, some don't, we all want success and I am sure the new owners do as well, let's just enjoy it.

[hypochondriac]

Even Dave Whelan, who loves Wigan, is now running the club so that they break even at least every year. What do you expect from our owners exactly?

 

Oh I have no problem with that. I hope you didn't think from my opening post that I was hoping we weren't run sensibly and within our means. I was just a scenario where the motivation of purchasing the club for Markus and Cortese was purely financial (and status based) and asking people to comment on what they thought were this scenario actually the case. For me personally I would hate us to become like Manchester United (I know we won't ever be that big it's just an example.) Really successful sure but at what cost? Would I get the same satisfaction following the Manu of the south? IMO almost certainly not but for others they definitely will. I was interested in how people felt.

 

In summary, I hope we are run to break even but equally I hope that this is done whilst keeping fans on board and in mind so that rifts do not appear. The threatening of legal action against fans is an example of a club showing contempt for fans and being bullying, as would be rebuffing attempts to sort out some dialogue between fans and the guys at the top. These are just examples but they are scenarios which have happened at other clubs in a similar situation to ourselves and I would hate for relations at our club to break down into something like this. Lets hope not!

[Wes Tender]

hypo, why would supporters who have had to suffer two relegations and the near-demise of their club EVER withdraw their support because the club are successful and so they have to pay a bit more? The nature of competitive sport is such that you try to win, all other factors are secondary to this. If somebody stops supporting Saints because they don't want to pay the price that comes with success (which, actually, would be not much more than mediocrity) then they are hypothetically deluded.

 

We supported Saints when they were at their lowest ebb, I'm sure that even in a hypothetical world we'd support them when successful.

 

Exactly. The support leached away because of various factors, because of Lowe, because of relegation, because of incompetent Dutch coaches, because of playing the youngsters, because of losing virtually every game and a growing hopelessness and negativity through division and strife.

 

The support has grown steadily because many of those things have been addressed with a new owner, decent manager, good players playing attractive football and better entertainment value when we win more often than not. There is also a buzz about the place, positivity through unity and optimism.

 

Sensible supporters accept that if we end up playing in the top flight, then prices will increase because they are paying to watch World stars in some matches. If they don't wish to pay increased ticket prices, then the option remains to save their money by watching Eastleigh, Bournemouth, Salisbury, or the Skates, whose ticket prices will soon reflect their lowly position and the low calibre quality of their players. If they could not contemplate not watching the Saints, then they will support them through thick and thin, rather like in a marriage contract, like the rest of us proper fans.

[hypochondriac]

Yes DBP and by making it look like a generous gesture, it in turn encourages the fans to feel good abut the club and to spend more. The very action of having no sponsor will increase revenue in other areas! I don't have a problem with that btw, I'm just suggesting that this is how it works.

[saintwarwick]

Quite clearly, a number of things are being put in place for next year to increase revenue. It will be predicted that the special commemorative shirt will sell more than the shirts from last year. The 2 pound booking fee will increase revenue. Higher food and drink prices will increase revenue. Of course there is no definitive "proof" but it's pretty darn likely when you look at it!

 

Maybe they are trying to encourage more season ticket holders, that way people will not have to pay the £2 booking fee and selling season tickets to more people will in fact have a negative equity. Food and drink prices won't rise that much, probably in line with inflation but by increasing a lot will mean more will use the outside bars. There is no other evidence they are trying to increase revenue for next season, more to the fact they are customer based, I disagree with the booking fee but I am a season ticket holder anyway, the only thing that will affect me is I won't brigng many other supporters down.

[hypochondriac]

Maybe they are trying to encourage more season ticket holders, that way people will not have to pay the £2 booking fee and selling season tickets to more people will in fact have a negative equity. Food and drink prices won't rise that much, probably in line with inflation but by increasing a lot will mean more will use the outside bars. There is no other evidence they are trying to increase revenue for next season, more to the fact they are customer based, I disagree with the booking fee but I am a season ticket holder anyway, the only thing that will affect me is I won't brigng many other supporters down.

 

Well IMO certainly not. Without going over old ground, the lack of installment option at such short notice will no doubt deter a percentage from renewing or buying a new season ticket. Anyway, lower season tickets and higher walk ups game by game will have an increase in revenue for the club. We shall see about food but it is my opinion that we will see a rise above inflation. With a food and drink prices rise (which I accept is speculation), booking fee introduction, lack of installment option which may result in lower season ticket sales but a higher walk up, how is that not evidence of the club trying to increase its revenue?

[Dave Benson Phillips]

Yes DBP and by making it look like a generous gesture, it in turn encourages the fans to feel good abut the club and to spend more. The very action of having no sponsor will increase revenue in other areas! I don't have a problem with that btw, I'm just suggesting that this is how it works.

 

Another example is energy, who sees the constand British Gas adverts with them claiming to have the cheapest electric in the land? They do indeed have the cheapest electric, but also the most expensive gas. People take them up on the offer of cheap electric and don't even look to see their gas prices, as they are attracted to the offer and just assume that their gas is cheap because it's from the " Gas Board "

 

They also charge Gas at a premium because they rely on the old fashioned people who want their Gas with British Gas and electric with Southern Electric ( Electricity Board ) , SFC have done this with Season Tickets and tickets... charging a premium this season because they realise that many people will turn up no matter what the cost, because it is SFC and their club.

 

( change of subject, anyone who has Gas with the Gas and Electric with the electric, I suggest looking at that as you are paying massively over the odds )

 

It is just how business is run, however not many football clubs run this way as it is not a very friendly way of doing business and certainly not supporter friendly.

[saintwarwick]

Why don't we just enjoy the ride, let's not speculate but be thankful we have owners who are pushing our club in the right direction. If there is a problem in the future then we can discuss it then but until then I for one am grateful for the whiff of fresh air and new life we have.

[trousers]

I would have no problem with that at all.

 

If they are only concerned with maximising profit then the club will have to be doing well to acheve this. You won't make much money on L1 revenues.

 

indeed....so, miss out on promotion next season and in all likelihood Liebherr and Cortese would cut their losses and look to sell the club on...?

[saintwarwick]

Another example is energy, who sees the constand British Gas adverts with them claiming to have the cheapest electric in the land? They do indeed have the cheapest electric, but also the most expensive gas. People take them up on the offer of cheap electric and don't even look to see their gas prices, as they are attracted to the offer and just assume that their gas is cheap because it's from the " Gas Board "

 

They also charge Gas at a premium because they rely on the old fashioned people who want their Gas with British Gas and electric with Southern Electric ( Electricity Board ) , SFC have done this with Season Tickets and tickets... charging a premium this season because they realise that many people will turn up no matter what the cost, because it is SFC and their club.

 

( change of subject, anyone who has Gas with the Gas and Electric with the electric, I suggest looking at that as you are paying massively over the odds )

 

It is just how business is run, however not many football clubs run this way as it is not a very friendly way of doing business and certainly not supporter friendly.

 

Some people only have electric and not gas so can work out for themselves the best offers in the same way some can also work out dual deals. I have a season ticket at SMS as it is cheaper than buying individual tickets. I just need to find an alternative to petrol prices without actually buying an electric car

[Dave Benson Phillips]

Maybe they are trying to encourage more season ticket holders, that way people will not have to pay the £2 booking fee and selling season tickets to more people will in fact have a negative equity. Food and drink prices won't rise that much, probably in line with inflation but by increasing a lot will mean more will use the outside bars. There is no other evidence they are trying to increase revenue for next season, more to the fact they are customer based, I disagree with the booking fee but I am a season ticket holder anyway, the only thing that will affect me is I won't brigng many other supporters down.

 

They certainly are not promoting more season ticket holders. I am a season ticket holder, and although I will renew, I am yet to recieve any sort of marketing. The local media and the local press have had no marketing or advertising campaigns that I know of, I have not recieved a renewal pack and indeed the Season Ticket Packages where only a headline on http://www.saintsfc.co.uk for 1 day. I think it is safe to say that the football club see their revenue coming in from other streams than season tickets this season.

 

As for the concourses, it is pure speculation until the first game. A change of company to "in-house" though does suggest that they are going to increase their profit margins, and this is the easiest way also to justify significant price increases. In my opinion expect some form of communication stating that products are now locally sourced etc and as a result there has needed to be rises in cost, but this money goes back into the community etc etc. Of course this is just speculation at this point though, but certainly how I see it.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

Some people only have electric and not gas so can work out for themselves the best offers in the same way some can also work out dual deals. I have a season ticket at SMS as it is cheaper than buying individual tickets. I just need to find an alternative to petrol prices without actually buying an electric car

 

But alot of people don't.

 

A high number of Southampton fans won't even look at the prices of a ticket or season ticket, they will just pay up. This is in the same way that alot of people will just get their gas from British Gas or their Electric from Southern Electric, just because that's what they've always done, not because it's the most economic way.

[inoffthepost]

The cynic in me has always considered that ML / NC could see that by snapping us up on the cheap, investing a few million to achieve a successful return to the Premier League, his investment would multiply several times over.

 

Let's face it, at our level, he won't make a lot of revenue from us fans but reach the promised land and yourvalue will rise exponentially.

[SnailOB]

Now I'm starting this thread with a plea. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE can we just discuss this hypothetical scenario without getting into a slanging match. I'm not condemming anyone here, neither am I taking sides.

 

So, I wanted to start this thread to pose a few questions to all saints fans on this site. Just suppose that Markus and Cortese bought this club because they saw an opportunity to grab a bargain and make some serious cash. Cortese was charged with maximising revenue quickly to ensure as large a profit as possible. Just suppose (remember this is hypothetical) that all that "we are custodians of the club" was just PR b*llocks, designed to assist the primary aim of maximising profit.

 

Suppose that fans were seen purely as a means of achieving this profit, that all were ignored when requests were made to open constructive dialogue with the club. What if organisations and even fellow saints fans were threatened by the club with legal action on more than one occasion?

 

How would people feel about this if this was the reason that Markus and Cortese took over and we ultimately find out a few years down the line that they don't give a sh*t about the fans? That's a genuine question by the way, I'm really curious about what people would think if that was a real scenario.

 

I guess what I'm also wondering is what would Cortese and Markus have to do to lose your support or at least make you concerned?

 

I HOPE THIS CAN BE DEBATED WITHOUT GETTING INTO A SLANGING MATCH

 

I'm interested in all (polite) responses.

 

In summary - i would feel like any other football fan in the country

Of course they purchased the club as a business venture and of course they want to make money. Is this a bad thing ?

 

As long as the pricing is reasonable to the average man on the street then he will go (problem arises as the average man seems to have differing opinions over what is reasonable). Look at this years season tickets, personally i think they are reasonable, particularly when you take into consideration that the club are investing in the team and making promotion an achievable goal. Are they doing this to keep me happy - no. If we get promoted then revenues will increase and ML/NC will make more money.

 

Will I be upset if they make the money - not if they continue to invest in club / facilities / team.

 

The season we just had was one of the most enjoyable I have had for a long time and next years has the potential to be better - no bad thing in my book.

 

I do think the scrapping of the payment plan at very short notice was much worse than actually scrapping the plan itself. And I think the booking fee is naughty. As for the new kit / lack of sponsor etc... call me a cynic but i agree with what Dave BP was saying. There is no sponsor because in L1 we cannot maximise sponsorship revenue BUT next season if all proceeds as NC obviously wants, we should. Selling a 'one off' kit, great gesture receiving great response from fans which should balance out lost revenue for L1 sponsorship BUT again - not disappointed with club over this - Bottom line is I don't have to buy a shirt if I don't want to.

 

As for your comments alluding to fans being threatened with legal action - bit of a strange statement for someone who is trying to start a 'hypothetical' debate. Obviously wouldn't like that - so what do you know / getting at ?

 

Not just happy clappy over results - more happy clappy because at the moment we seem to have STABILITY.

[up and away]

They are both capitalists - not philanthropists, they want a return on their investment. It is fantastic that they have invested in our club and long may that investment continue but it cannot be taken for granted imo

 

This is never going to be an investment. It's still a hobby with the practical side of finance applied. Even then you have to look at the money already spent to see this is going to cost a real go to get into the premier. Then once you get there look at the money the likes of Aston Villa and Spurs have thrown in just for a chance of Champions League. Without someone like Liebherr we have virtually zero chance of aspiring to those great heights and as owners go, would any fan even think of swapping him?

[Depressed of Shirley]

Another example is energy, who sees the constand British Gas adverts with them claiming to have the cheapest electric in the land? They do indeed have the cheapest electric, but also the most expensive gas. People take them up on the offer of cheap electric and don't even look to see their gas prices, as they are attracted to the offer and just assume that their gas is cheap because it's from the " Gas Board "

 

They also charge Gas at a premium because they rely on the old fashioned people who want their Gas with British Gas and electric with Southern Electric ( Electricity Board ) , SFC have done this with Season Tickets and tickets... charging a premium this season because they realise that many people will turn up no matter what the cost, because it is SFC and their club.

 

( change of subject, anyone who has Gas with the Gas and Electric with the electric, I suggest looking at that as you are paying massively over the odds )

 

It is just how business is run, however not many football clubs run this way as it is not a very friendly way of doing business and certainly not supporter friendly.

 

Do you think that the majority of other football clubs are "supporter friendly". At nearly every Premier League, and a majority of Football League clubs, there are fans groups who will tell you what crooks etc their owners are, and how they are fleecing the fans.

 

The real issue is that football clubs are not normal businesses, because as fans we are loyal to one club, and won't go and support someone else. Therefore, we put up with much more than we would from our regular supermarket.

 

The only thing that would stop me from buying tickets to watch Saints would be if we went back to two years ago, where we actually set the club up with no chance of avoiding relegation. I refused to pay to watch that, as for me, if a team has no chance, or intention, of competing, it can't expect me to pay for it. If the current regime took us back to those days, then I would stop buying tickets.

[saintwarwick]

They certainly are not promoting more season ticket holders. I am a season ticket holder, and although I will renew, I am yet to recieve any sort of marketing. The local media and the local press have had no marketing or advertising campaigns that I know of, I have not recieved a renewal pack and indeed the Season Ticket Packages where only a headline on http://www.saintsfc.co.uk for 1 day. I think it is safe to say that the football club see their revenue coming in from other streams than season tickets this season.

 

As for the concourses, it is pure speculation until the first game. A change of company to "in-house" though does suggest that they are going to increase their profit margins, and this is the easiest way also to justify significant price increases. In my opinion expect some form of communication stating that products are now locally sourced etc and as a result there has needed to be rises in cost, but this money goes back into the community etc etc. Of course this is just speculation at this point though, but certainly how I see it.

You have clearly missed the point I was trying to make, the idea of selling season tickets is to ensure bums are secure on seats, if you charge an extra £2 on normal tickets it would make the season ticket look more attractive in the terms of price, wouldn't you agree? Most walk up fans will do 15+ games a season so times that by about £25 will mean it's more attractive to buy the season ticket in the first place. Anyway I'm done for this discussion, I enjoy what we have now and long may it continue.

[capitalsaint]

In summary - i would feel like any other football fan in the country

Of course they purchased the club as a business venture and of course they want to make money. Is this a bad thing ?

 

As long as the pricing is reasonable to the average man on the street then he will go (problem arises as the average man seems to have differing opinions over what is reasonable). Look at this years season tickets, personally i think they are reasonable, particularly when you take into consideration that the club are investing in the team and making promotion an achievable goal. Are they doing this to keep me happy - no. If we get promoted then revenues will increase and ML/NC will make more money.

 

Will I be upset if they make the money - not if they continue to invest in club / facilities / team.

 

The season we just had was one of the most enjoyable I have had for a long time and next years has the potential to be better - no bad thing in my book.

 

I do think the scrapping of the payment plan at very short notice was much worse than actually scrapping the plan itself. And I think the booking fee is naughty. As for the new kit / lack of sponsor etc... call me a cynic but i agree with what Dave BP was saying. There is no sponsor because in L1 we cannot maximise sponsorship revenue BUT next season if all proceeds as NC obviously wants, we should. Selling a 'one off' kit, great gesture receiving great response from fans which should balance out lost revenue for L1 sponsorship BUT again - not disappointed with club over this - Bottom line is I don't have to buy a shirt if I don't want to.

 

As for your comments alluding to fans being threatened with legal action - bit of a strange statement for someone who is trying to start a 'hypothetical' debate. Obviously wouldn't like that - so what do you know / getting at ?

 

Not just happy clappy over results - more happy clappy because at the moment we seem to have STABILITY.

 

i salute you!

[saintwarwick]

Do you think that the majority of other football clubs are "supporter friendly". At nearly every Premier League, and a majority of Football League clubs, there are fans groups who will tell you what crooks etc their owners are, and how they are fleecing the fans.

 

The real issue is that football clubs are not normal businesses, because as fans we are loyal to one club, and won't go and support someone else. Therefore, we put up with much more than we would from our regular supermarket.

 

The only thing that would stop me from buying tickets to watch Saints would be if we went back to two years ago, where we actually set the club up with no chance of avoiding relegation. I refused to pay to watch that, as for me, if a team has no chance, or intention, of competing, it can't expect me to pay for it. If the current regime took us back to those days, then I would stop buying tickets.

 

I understand where you are coming from but we like other clubs need the support through the good times as well as the bad ones, yes the last few years haven't been good but some of us have stuck it out, I have not stopped buying tickets for this reason, remember saints is for life not just the premiership.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

Do you think that the majority of other football clubs are "supporter friendly". At nearly every Premier League, and a majority of Football League clubs, there are fans groups who will tell you what crooks etc their owners are, and how they are fleecing the fans.

 

The real issue is that football clubs are not normal businesses, because as fans we are loyal to one club, and won't go and support someone else. Therefore, we put up with much more than we would from our regular supermarket.

 

The only thing that would stop me from buying tickets to watch Saints would be if we went back to two years ago, where we actually set the club up with no chance of avoiding relegation. I refused to pay to watch that, as for me, if a team has no chance, or intention, of competing, it can't expect me to pay for it. If the current regime took us back to those days, then I would stop buying tickets.

 

I believe we have pricing which would not be out of place in the Premiership. There are indeed clubs which are supporter friendly. The teams in the bottom half of the Premiership, your Wigans and Blackburns rely on getting supporters through the gate therefore price accordingly.

 

The larger clubs are not so supporter friendly because they have the luxury of supporters such as yourself, who will pay whatever it takes to watch your team. The larger clubs can pretty much fill up their stadiums with these fans and corporate fans, so price their tickets accordingly.

 

I have no doubt that if we were doing well in the Premiership then we would fill the stadium on £40-£50 tickets for a seat in the Northam, I also have no doubt that the people sat in them seats will be completely different to those sat there now, filled with people who know little about Saints, their history, nor indeed have much care.

 

As long as they enjoy their pre-match meal down Oxford Street with their business pals though eh?

[Joesaint]

I honestly feel we are in good hands, even if for a profit.

[Colinjb]

In summary, you cannot please all of the people all of the time. You can however please most of them!!

[Thedelldays]

it must be engrained in our minds that we must debate everything NON-FOOTBALL when it comes to saints...we simply MUST

[Dave Benson Phillips]

it must be engrained in our minds that we must debate everything NON-FOOTBALL when it comes to saints...we simply MUST

 

With the greatest of respect, it is not just about the little ball on the green grass is it? The way the club is structured has a direct impact on every single Southampton supporter moving forwards.

[Thedelldays]

With the greatest of respect, it is not just about the little ball on the green grass is it? The way the club is structured has a direct impact on every single Southampton supporter moving forwards.

 

some people talk like the club are forcing them at gun point to buy a season ticket/shirt/programme the way everything like that is debated..

I tell you what, £3 booking fee or not..when looking up and down the leagues, there are very few chairmen/owners I would want to swap with..

 

lets wait till something actually goes wrong before we slaughter NC

[Dave Benson Phillips]

some people talk like the club are forcing them at gun point to buy a season ticket/shirt/programme the way everything like that is debated..

I tell you what, £3 booking fee or not..when looking up and down the leagues, there are very few chairmen/owners I would want to swap with..

 

lets wait till something actually goes wrong before we slaughter NC

 

The Chairman will be judged on how he interacts with the fans and not alot else. The ideas with regards to investment etc will all be signed off by Liebherr. They will have a spending budget which they will have agreed as part of their 5 year plan. eg Year 1 £5m Year 2 £10m etc etc, Cortese will have little effect on that. Mr Cortese will also take charge of recruitment, and as he has now built a strong management team, he should then delegate them to build their respective areas, as Mr Cortese knows little about football himself.

 

There is obvious investment into the Academy, which has been neglected for a couple of years. It is not free investment, it is one which makes a significant return. I believe the cost of running the Academy is little over £1m per annum. So in selling Gareth Bale, Theo Walcott and Surman type players again will run the Academy for 20 years! The training ground upgrades are also needed, but the return on investment there is also great, not only developing Academy players but progressing established professionals, which can be sold on for a profit.

 

The Owner will be judged on how much money he pumps into the club by way of donation.

 

The Manager will be judged on the clubs league position.

 

The players will be judged on their individual performance.

[John Smith]

That is irrelevent and has nothing to do with the question I was asking.

 

Oh dear, I thought you wanted a serious debate about a hyperthetical scenario, I didn't realise you were going to make up a load of rubbish and pretend it was real! This is no debate really is it hypo? I'll leave you to your fantasy world of hypo-thetical situations, and that they all end in the scenario of hypo becoming King of the Universe, good luck.

[MarkSFC]

The "fans" of a football club have an emotional attachment which for some runs deeper than others. The level of emotional attachment linked to you general disposition and intelect is a reasonable indication of what you expect "back" from the club. Whatever an individual expects and feels is ok by me but sometimes an element of realism coupled with the manner you express yourself needs to occur.

Then you have the "businessmen" of the club. Hopefully (and in our case we are lucky) those "businessmen/women" who run your club are experienced, professional, and have a background of success. Another trait you get from these people is the ability to be unemotional when making the tough decisions concerning strategy and planning.

 

This means that some fans will not be able to logically understand the actions of the club leaders when it effects them emotionally.

This is life.

 

Cortese comes from a very non customer focussed world and as such that has benefited us hugely so far. Sure he could do more but would you prefer the opposite scenario where the CEO etc, is very communicative and fan friendly but makes bad business decision after another??!!

 

Given time I'm sure ML and NC and co will satisfy both ends of the spectrum!!

[scotty]

IF, and this is a big hypothetical IF, there were, as you put it - "an opportunity to make serious cash" - why oh why oh why, was there only 2 potential suitors for us, and given that one of those were bogus, why was this so? IF there is so much serious money to be made out of football clubs, why wasn;t poopey sold more easily, surely a Prem club or CCC club is more profitable than ours OR at least as profitable. What about Crystal Palace, what about Bournemouth, and what about all the others? Serious cash? Are you being serious?

 

So, in answer to your hypothetical question, I would have to ask the question that has yet to be asked -

 

How much money do you think ML and NC will make Net profit from this venture after 5 years? And In making this Net profit, how much 'investment' do you think it will take to achieve this, ie how much cash on the hip will ANY investor require in order to achieve these substantial rewards that you so loosely talk of? And if it were so obviously easy to achieve, by screwing all these fans, why didn;t a common poopey supporter do it, or an avid Saints fan? Why did Wilde and Crouch fail? Couldn;t have been the investment, as you seem to think in this hypothetical situation that millions of pounds investment is par of the course OR is irrelevant.

 

And lastly, in this hypothetical scenario, why oh why oh why, did Rupert Lowe 'allow' this club to go into debt when all he had to do was introduce a £3 charge on purchases. I bet he's turning in his chair!

 

Theres an embargo on using the "R**ert *o*e" words on here. And if there isnt, there ought to be

[hypochondriac]

Oh dear, I thought you wanted a serious debate about a hyperthetical scenario, I didn't realise you were going to make up a load of rubbish and pretend it was real! This is no debate really is it hypo? I'll leave you to your fantasy world of hypo-thetical situations, and that they all end in the scenario of hypo becoming King of the Universe, good luck.

 

Everyone seemed to manage it apart from you. Play the ball not the man? Oh dear, there is always one person who can't debate the points raised so personally attacks the poster involved in the debate. Ho hum.

[Red and White Army]

Let's have a "hypothetical" debate.

 

Say we have one fan - a real attention seeker - that thought she/he was so important and so smart that she/he saw more than everyone else and wanted to let everyone else know how smart she/he was.

 

Lets say there is an anonymous internet forum which would be ideal for this purpose, because you can say things on there with no proof, no evidence, no liability and no downside.

 

Let's avoid all the facts that contravene this made up scenario:

 

that it would be a lot cheaper and less risky to fund a Saints purchase with debt, not cash

that there are a huge abundance of beaten up assets trading at rock bottom prices in global equity markets

that football clubs lose money the vast majority of the time

that the owner has been seen at dozens of games clearly having a great old time

significant investments in infrastructure are being made/planned that have a long pay out period

 

If we combine all these.... then ladies and gentlement - we have threads like this.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

significant investments in infrastructure are being made/planned that have a long pay out period

 

Whilst I agree that there may be longer pay out periods for things such as training facilities. I don't subscribe to there being significant investment. All upgrades were needed and normal wear and tear/maintenence of a football club. The figure for the training ground upgrade is around £1m, certainly not what I would amound to significant for a company with a turnover of probably circa £20-25m per annum.

[teamsaint]

The club's owners can do what they want, when they want, how they want.

 

We, the fans, are here for the long term,and its very clear that takeovers by individuals do not always go the way the fans want.So its pretty sensible to be wary about how owners operate.

 

Its clear that ML and NC are prepared to invest, (presumably cash rather than debt, though we are not certain about this yet).What the effect of this investment might be on the loyal fanbase would be, should we get back to the Championship and then the PL is far from certain.I suspect that a return to the PL will bring a club where the returning "fans" and deep corporate pockets are king.

 

As a viewpoint, not everybody is a "PL at any price" person. I'm not, but then i am pretty powerless.Its nice tobe able to express a point of view in a proper discussion though!!

[SNSUN]

Until they give me reason to doubt them, I'm happy with the current set up. I live in the now, not the future, otherwise I'd die with worry.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

 

Its clear that ML and NC are prepared to invest, (presumably cash rather than debt, though we are not certain about this yet).What the effect of this investment might be on the loyal fanbase would be, should we get back to the Championship and then the PL is far from certain.I suspect that a return to the PL will bring a club where the returning "fans" and deep corporate pockets are king.

 

As a viewpoint, not everybody is a "PL at any price" person. I'm not, but then i am pretty powerless.Its nice tobe able to express a point of view in a proper discussion though!!

 

Just to redress the balance slightly, I have not seen any significant investment from SFC thus far. £3m on players is certainly not significant spending on players for a club with our turnover and zero mortgage/debts/interest to pay. I know in comparison to many clubs we are lucky that we are in a healthy financial position and I am sure we are living within our means. I would be very surprised if we spent anywhere near £3m again this season. So far we have spent circa £100k on new playing staff.

 

The backroom staff has been invested in. Or has it?

 

You have to remember that in the run-up to administration the club was running on skeleton staff, it was only natural there would be recruitment to bring the clubs staffing back up to a level which is suitable. Yes we have recruited Les Reed which is indeed a good appointment, but certainly not world-beating and we have signed a former Manchester City regional scout. Let's not forget that non-playing staff attract a much smaller salary too.

 

So in summary, I don't believe that we are being bankrolled, it is nice to be living within our means, but I think some people are getting carried away thinking we are the Chelsea of League 1.

[up and away]

Originally Posted by John Smith

Oh dear, I thought you wanted a serious debate about a hyperthetical scenario, I didn't realise you were going to make up a load of rubbish and pretend it was real! This is no debate really is it hypo? I'll leave you to your fantasy world of hypo-thetical situations, and that they all end in the scenario of hypo becoming King of the Universe, good luck.

 

Everyone seemed to manage it apart from you. Play the ball not the man? Oh dear, there is always one person who can't debate the points raised so personally attacks the poster involved in the debate. Ho hum.

 

This all revolves around one point, the ability to sell the club at a profit. Now if you cannot debate that point, the rest of it is inconsequential. It's not difficult to put a value on the club, equally it's not difficult to see the possibility of a buyer and at what sort of value. Then you just have to look at the amount of investment you require to get to various elevations of a football club and there is no way you can see this turning in a profit. If you want a very good example of this look at Aston Villa, the cost of buying, the investment and what it would bring on the market today. The blip that saw football being attractive to the idiot investor is long gone with the examples strewn across the Premier, how Liebherr managed to get involved still boggles the mind, unless as a passion, rather than investment.

 

If you don't want to include the crux of the scenario, all you are doing is opening up a contrived position to take cheap shots under the guise of debate.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

This all revolves around one point, the ability to sell the club at a profit. Now if you cannot debate that point, the rest of it is inconsequential. It's not difficult to put a value on the club, equally it's not difficult to see the possibility of a buyer and at what sort of value. Then you just have to look at the amount of investment you require to get to various elevations of a football club and there is no way you can see this turning in a profit. If you want a very good example of this look at Aston Villa, the cost of buying, the investment and what it would bring on the market today. The blip that saw football being attractive to the idiot investor is long gone with the examples strewn across the Premier, how Liebherr managed to get involved still boggles the mind, unless as a passion, rather than investment.

 

If you don't want to include the crux of the scenario, all you are doing is opening up a contrived position to take cheap shots under the guise of debate.

 

It is different than purchasing an established Premiership club. There is massive returns for getting us to the Premiership. The self-sufficiant that Mr Cortese talks of when speaking of his 5 year plan is one that can run itself without relying on the Sky money and instead on natural turnover, which obviously means increase in ticket revenue, sponsorship and Academy player sales as well as profit for existing professionals. A premiership club with a sensible wage structure can achieve this.

 

Don't confuse buying a League 1 team with Premiership facilities with buying an established Premiership team. It is my opinion that there is a very lucrative return for Mr Liebherr should they achieve their 5 year plan, and this is what they are here for.

[John Smith]

It is different than purchasing an established Premiership club. There is massive returns for getting us to the Premiership. The self-sufficiant that Mr Cortese talks of when speaking of his 5 year plan is one that can run itself without relying on the Sky money and instead on natural turnover, which obviously means increase in ticket revenue, sponsorship and Academy player sales as well as profit for existing professionals. A premiership club with a sensible wage structure can achieve this.

 

Don't confuse buying a League 1 team with Premiership facilities with buying an established Premiership team. It is my opinion that there is a very lucrative return for Mr Liebherr should they achieve their 5 year plan, and this is what they are here for.

 

But, my point is, we don't know how much this club will sell for in around 5 years, we just don't. Would we have been in the prem for 2 years or less? Will we be in the Prem? If we are in the Prem, is this with the players we have at this point today? Will the facilities at the training ground stay unimproved? What about the stadium, is a 30,000 seater a place where someone would plough millions of pounds, only to find out that they need to increase the capacity in order to receive those benefits of being a big club, because surely a new investor will want to come in, improve things and make a profit, what's the cost attached to that? How is the economy going to move over the next year? Two, three, four, five? Nobody knows. What about the possible FIFA regulations on young national players, overseas players etc? How is the game going to change?

 

So, lastly, in order to make a profit, this club HAS to be in a position to appear hugely profitable when it is sold. What billionaire will sell a business which still has potential to make huge amounts of money, providing this hypothetical debate bears fruition? No billionaire would sell a multi million pound asset like that, surely. particularly after just have spent money on team improvements, training ground improvements, new ground developments etc. And to suggest that this club will be massively succesfull, ie. circa £200mill PROFIT! on the earnings the club can make internally through ticket sales and TV money, isn;t just hypo-thetical, it's hypo-ridiculous. Why, because how many times have people outside the top six not had masses of outside investment spent on them? And even if you can come up with a couple of examples, that;s a couple out of 90 odd teams in the football league. Don;t fool yourself into thinking Saints will achieve this just because we support them, it won't.

 

So, like I said, the realism of this becoming a realistic scenario is very very minute, ie, no outside investment in order to achieve a profit of £200million in around 5 years, in fact, it's kind of ludicrous, particularly when hypo can;t use anything close to reality to substantiate his claims that this figure in the wind will actually be achievable. So, I'll leave you all to Hypo, King of the Universe.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

But, my point is, we don't know how much this club will sell for in around 5 years, we just don't. Would we have been in the prem for 2 years or less? Will we be in the Prem? If we are in the Prem, is this with the players we have at this point today? Will the facilities at the training ground stay unimproved? What about the stadium, is a 30,000 seater a place where someone would plough millions of pounds, only to find out that they need to increase the capacity in order to receive those benefits of being a big club, because surely a new investor will want to come in, improve things and make a profit, what's the cost attached to that? How is the economy going to move over the next year? Two, three, four, five? Nobody knows. What about the possible FIFA regulations on young national players, overseas players etc? How is the game going to change?

 

So, lastly, in order to make a profit, this club HAS to be in a position to appear hugely profitable when it is sold. What billionaire will sell a business which still has potential to make huge amounts of money, providing this hypothetical debate bears fruition? No billionaire would sell a multi million pound asset like that, surely. particularly after just have spent money on team improvements, training ground improvements, new ground developments etc. And to suggest that this club will be massively succesfull, ie. circa £200mill PROFIT! on the earnings the club can make internally through ticket sales and TV money, isn;t just hypo-thetical, it's hypo-ridiculous. Why, because how many times have people outside the top six not had masses of outside investment spent on them? And even if you can come up with a couple of examples, that;s a couple out of 90 odd teams in the football league. Don;t fool yourself into thinking Saints will achieve this just because we support them, it won't.

 

So, like I said, the realism of this becoming a realistic scenario is very very minute, ie, no outside investment in order to achieve a profit of £200million in around 5 years, in fact, it's kind of ludicrous, particularly when hypo can;t use anything close to reality to substantiate his claims that this figure in the wind will actually be achievable. So, I'll leave you all to Hypo, King of the Universe.

 

I think the realisim is that Mr Liebherr is in it for as much money he can make out of it. If this was not the case then there would not be this aggressive stature that the club has adopted with regards to ticketing etc. If the owner genuinely was just here for sh*ts and giggles so to speak, then he would want to see the stadium full each week and would price accordingly.

 

It is clear to myself that the actions of SFC Ltd in the last year suggest that as part of their 5 year plan, Cortese has been targeted to maximise revenue immediately rather than wait for the riches of the Premiership. I suspect Mr Lieberr and Mr Cortese have sat down and worked out how much money is needed to achieve each goal, and what money will be budgeted for transfers etc.

 

Cortese no doubt is on a very lucrative bonus for achieving certain profitability and operational targets, which explains the clubs actions.

 

In short, Liebherr has tasked Cortese to achieve the 5 year plan with as little help from Liebherrs wallet as possible. Obviously if Cortese achieves this then he will be rewarded accordingly. All in my honest opinion of course.

 

I think people shouldn't dream that we are being bankrolled and we have found ourself an Abramovich, although we have the security of not needing financing, I don't believe Liebherr will be out of pocket at any point during the next 5 years, with the exception of the initial purchase and possibly player purchases.

[NickG]

so in sumary our owner wants us to be successful. Agreed. Good for him and us.

[Depressed of Shirley]

I honestly feel we are in good hands, even if for a profit.

 

I understand where you are coming from but we like other clubs need the support through the good times as well as the bad ones, yes the last few years haven't been good but some of us have stuck it out, I have not stopped buying tickets for this reason, remember saints is for life not just the premiership.

 

I have had a season ticket every year bar one, since the early 80's. I decided not to two years ago, because I didn't think we were trying to win football matches, but save money, and I objected to paying for that. I attended most games until Christmas, then stopped completely, until Lowe left. Last season I had a season ticket.

 

My point is that I will pay to watch football, but once the result is secondary to the financial outcome, I'm not interested. It will be the same if NC went down the same route.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

so in sumary our owner wants us to be successful. Agreed. Good for him and us.

 

Correct, he want us to be financially successful as a first priority. This in turn will improve our fortunes on the pitch. Obviously there will be a price to pay for this success, so you can expect our fanbase to change over the next few years as many families and less wealthy individuals are priced out of the game and replaced by people from the corporate market.

 

You can never please everyone though. Some people will love it, some people will hate it.

[Depressed of Shirley]

I believe we have pricing which would not be out of place in the Premiership. There are indeed clubs which are supporter friendly. The teams in the bottom half of the Premiership, your Wigans and Blackburns rely on getting supporters through the gate therefore price accordingly.

 

The larger clubs are not so supporter friendly because they have the luxury of supporters such as yourself, who will pay whatever it takes to watch your team. The larger clubs can pretty much fill up their stadiums with these fans and corporate fans, so price their tickets accordingly.

 

I have no doubt that if we were doing well in the Premiership then we would fill the stadium on £40-£50 tickets for a seat in the Northam, I also have no doubt that the people sat in them seats will be completely different to those sat there now, filled with people who know little about Saints, their history, nor indeed have much care.

 

As long as they enjoy their pre-match meal down Oxford Street with their business pals though eh?

 

So what you really mean is cheap tickets, not supporter friendly, and there is a difference. For me, it is about seeing my team, if I am lucky enough to afford it.

 

I also wouldn't write off all supporters other than the Northam end, simply because they go for a pre-match beer somewhere you don't, doesn't make them less valid as fans.

 

p.s. I drink in the Alex pre-game.

[Dave Benson Phillips]

So what you really mean is cheap tickets, not supporter friendly, and there is a difference. For me, it is about seeing my team, if I am lucky enough to afford it.

 

I also wouldn't write off all supporters other than the Northam end, simply because they go for a pre-match beer somewhere you don't, doesn't make them less valid as fans.

 

p.s. I drink in the Alex pre-game.

 

I don't understand what you mean there?! I was using the Northam Stand as an example, as in our cheapest tickets will be in the region of £40-£50.

 

And I was also alluding to the fact that many of the people sitting in these seats will be entertaining their business associates in a Bistro in the Oxford Street area pre-match.

 

All I am saying is that many people will be priced out of Premiership football. I will be, although when that time comes I will indeed wangle the expenses and entertain a client at the game along with the others. If you can't beat them, join them!

Edited 16 June, 2010 by Dave Benson Phillips

[John B]

so in sumary our owner wants us to be successful. Agreed. Good for him and us.

 

I would be very surprised if any owner wanted to be unsuccessful.

 

 

Cortese wants to be successful as well as making a reasonable return on investment