BMW: a car for complete nobbers...

[Chin Strain]

Exactly. I very much doubt that the paint is thicker on an Audi than on a Seat. The VW group are running the company in two halves these days. Under one banner you've got VW and Skoda, and under the other you've got Audi and Seat. They are keen to raise the profile of Seat outside mainland Europe and are making the cars more sporty and stylish to appeal to a younger audience.

The thing that convinced me to buy a Seat over an Audi was the level of service from the dealer. The two Audi dealers I visited were complete ****s. I was ignored, had to ask for help and then treated like I was a piece of **** on the salesman's shoe. The testdrive in an A3 lasted less than 10 mins and I did under 5 miles in the car. The Seat dealer lent me the car for 24 hours, didn't pressure me at all and made the whole process far more enjoyable. A rare thing in car sales these days.[/QUOToTE]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that everyone has an example of bad service at a motor dealer. Southampton Audi were awful, and simply wren't interested in any sort of deal on a new A5. By contrast Heritage in Salisbury were superb from start to finish. My wife was looking for a new Golf a year ago. Peter Cooper in hedge End were shocking - you'd have thought we were doing them a favour. Heritage in Salisbury were fantastic.

 

I'm surprised that you'd make a choice as material as Audi or Seat (or CFord or VW) based on an experience at a couple of dealers. Sure, I wouldn't buy from that dealer, but would find one that was interested and who wanted my business and actually sold me the car I wanted. Sure, justify your purchase based on the fact that it was the car you wanted, not because you picked a couple of poor dealers.

Edited 23 June, 2010 by Chin Strain

[Chin Strain]

You do know that the A1 is built in Belgium (ie not Germany) on the same production line where some Ibiza's are built and some Audis are built in Spain?

 

Yep, I did but you'll find it's an Audi plant not a Seat plant...and think you'll also find that 'an' Audi will be built in Spain by Seat - the upcoming Q3. Smaller cars, smaller margins, makes sense to make use of all company facilities.

 

I think you're kidding yourself if you seriously, seriously think you get the same quality parts, sound proofing etc etc in a Seat as you do in an Audi.

Edited 23 June, 2010 by Chin Strain

[Chin Strain]

The only thing that Audi are better at is marketing the product. By the looks of things you've been suckered.

 

Suckered? No, i bought the car that I wanted, from a dealer that was prepared to do me a deal on it. My car doesn't have an equivalent in the Seat range so, no, I wasn't suckered. Were you suckered into buying a Seat by a smooth talking salesman?

[Cestrian Saint]

Suckered? No, i bought the car that I wanted, from a dealer that was prepared to do me a deal on it. My car doesn't have an equivalent in the Seat range so, no, I wasn't suckered. Were you suckered into buying a Seat by a smooth talking salesman?

 

No I certainly was not. Far too many car salesmen are the scum of the earth. The amount of smarmy bastards I had to encounter whilst looking for a new car was shocking. The insincerity and lies told by many of them was enough to make you sick. Those ****s would sell their own mother!

Interesting to see your comment about kidding myself if I think the Seat has the same quality parts as the Audi. One look under the bonnet reveals that many of the parts are identical to those in the Audi.

The Ibiza is the car I wanted as it offered far better value for money than an Audi or VW, with the same level of build quality. The choice of dealers is very important as the car has to go back there for service or warranty work if required. Convenience plays a big part in things. I wouldn't want to be taking my Audi to a dealer 50 miles away every time it needed a service & I certainly wouldn't want to buy it elsewhere and take it for service with the dealer who treated me like ****.

I got the car I wanted from a local dealer who offered excellent service.

Edited 23 June, 2010 by Cestrian Saint

[hamster]

Cars are like washing machines nowadays. BMWs are the SMEG of the car world. Look at me, I'm big and I am tall and I am shiny with lots of fancy lights and buttons. Oh hang on, I'm the one who you can't afford to fix. BM's, my nipper races them and no way can he drive his race car as fast as I can drive my old banger. Don;t get some people's love affair with them. The vast ones are black so that it makes it doubly hard to see them pull out on you without lights at nighttime. Learn to drive before you buy a car, please.

[LGTL]

If you enjoy the continued failure of Ignition Coils and Fuel Injectors, as well as having the EML light come on about every 100 miles, buy yourselves a BMW. I have nothing against their drivers, but they really are an unreliable manufacturer.

[Chin Strain]

No I certainly was not. Far too many car salesmen are the scum of the earth. The amount of smarmy bastards I had to encounter whilst looking for a new car was shocking. The insincerity and lies told by many of them was enough to make you sick. Those ****s would sell their own mother!

Interesting to see your comment about kidding myself if I think the Seat has the same quality parts as the Audi. One look under the bonnet reveals that many of the parts are identical to those in the Audi.

The Ibiza is the car I wanted as it offered far better value for money than an Audi or VW, with the same level of build quality. The choice of dealers is very important as the car has to go back there for service or warranty work if required. Convenience plays a big part in things. I wouldn't want to be taking my Audi to a dealer 50 miles away every time it needed a service & I certainly wouldn't want to buy it elsewhere and take it for service with the dealer who treated me like ****.

I got the car I wanted from a local dealer who offered excellent service.

 

Fair enough. Your OP seemed to suggest it was down to the dealer. I'd admit that if I was looking for a car the sort of size as an A3 then I would have a look at a Golf too (I actually prefer the look of the Golf, and it's a top car from previous experience.). I did have a look at a Seat Leon with my wife 3 or 4 years ago and it wasn't our bag - each to their own. Under the bonnet may be the same. That's not where the 'build quality' starts and finishes though - it's one part.

 

Interesting that you were looking at both A3 and Ibiza. On the basis that the A3 is a much bigger car, it seems strange. The A3 equivalent is surely the Leon...which is a lot more expensive than the Ibiza. Leon 2.0 TDi 140 Sport is £18500. A3 2.0TDi 140 Sport is £20500. You could easily, easily wipe that difference out with a decent deal. Would I buy an A3 over a Leon with that price differential? Yep, every day of the week. IMHO that makes the Seat pretty expensive, and it's a much cleaner comparison in terms of size. You've effectively compared a Fiesta with a Focus.

 

I'm ok about going to Salisbury once every 19k miles for a service - no biggie. Had it since October, and no need to take it in for any issues. When I wanted to test drive, they bought it to my house (Chandlers Ford) - pretty good customer service.

 

You mentioned that I was suckered into buying my car by marketing schmooz - pretty sure there isn't an equivalent Seat, unless you could point me in the direction of one. Pretty general comment without finding out what I bought.

 

My choice for a similar car was BMW, Mercedes, or possibly VW for the Passat CC. Resale plays an important part in the decision too, based on teh length of time I keep the car. Also, deals on the table at the point of purchase. I think you'd agree that £5.5k off a brand new, factory ordered car is pretty decent (16%). Residuals are also important - mine will be greater than the Passat CC (which works out at similar money for the same spec), and the deals they were offering made the car pretty much the same price as mine. Bit of a no brainer. Mercedes are too expensive and BMW don't do it for me particularly with their current range.

 

My last two cars have been new A6's (2005 and 2007) - no Seat, VW or Skoda equivalent. Before that new Passat (2003) and new Golf (2001). Went from a Passat to the new A6. Would I say the A6 was better? Yep....by a pretty big distance too.

Edited 24 June, 2010 by Chin Strain

[Whitey Grandad]

If you enjoy the continued failure of Ignition Coils and Fuel Injectors, as well as having the EML light come on about every 100 miles, buy yourselves a BMW. I have nothing against their drivers, but they really are an unreliable manufacturer.

 

Mercedes are worse. I've had no problems with my BMWs with two cars and over 300,000 miles, but I do have them regularly looked at. There are a couple of good independents down near Totton. Remember that I was brought up on cars with Joe Lucas electrics so anything half-decent is an improvement.

[sotonjoe]

I love this sort of discussion. What you essentially have is a group of guys who can't afford a BMW, trying to justfiy their choice of cheaper. Take money out of the equation and all you Seat lovers would have a BMW in a moment.

 

Next you'll all be saying you shop in Lidl because they make nicer ready meals than Marks and Spencer.

[Chin Strain]

I love this sort of discussion. What you essentially have is a group of guys who can't afford a BMW, trying to justfiy their choice of cheaper. Take money out of the equation and all you Seat lovers would have a BMW in a moment.

 

Next you'll all be saying you shop in Lidl because they make nicer ready meals than Marks and Spencer.

[buctootim]

The JD Power surveys look at how satisfied people are with the car they bought after two years of ownership. Yonks ago there was a huge range between top and bottom places. Its interesting how that gap has narrowed between different models and manufacturers over time -only 3.5% points between 3rd place and 20th.

http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/lexus-dominates-jd-power-2010/250150

Edited 28 June, 2010 by buctootim

[Johnny Bognor]

If you enjoy the continued failure of Ignition Coils and Fuel Injectors, as well as having the EML light come on about every 100 miles, buy yourselves a BMW. I have nothing against their drivers, but they really are an unreliable manufacturer.

 

I am now on my 3rd 5 series, which now has 54k miles on it. The previous two had over 180k miles on them when I sold them. Over 410k miles between all three and one ignition coil failed, which cost me £200. Maybe you were unlucky?

 

Every other car I owned prior to the 1st BM fell apart after 100k miles.

 

I believe there is an E34 with 1 million miles on it with the original engine and gearbox. Stick that in your jap pipe and smoke it.

[buctootim]

I am now on my 3rd 5 series, which now has 54k miles on it. The previous two had over 180k miles on them when I sold them. Over 410k miles between all three and one ignition coil failed, which cost me £200. Maybe you were unlucky?

 

Every other car I owned prior to the 1st BM fell apart after 100k miles.

 

The 5 series is a good car. Its unfair though to compare their longevity and reliability with others if you havent owned another make for, Im guessing, about 15 years. Car building standards and oil technology have improved out of all recognition in the past 15 years. Even friends and family's Alfa Romeos and Renault Clios had over 180,000 on the clock.

Edited 29 June, 2010 by buctootim

[buctootim]

My last two cars have been new A6's (2005 and 2007) - no Seat, VW or Skoda equivalent. Before that new Passat (2003) and new Golf (2001). Went from a Passat to the new A6. Would I say the A6 was better? Yep....by a pretty big distance too.

 

As a matter of interest why do you prefer the A6 to the Passat? Ive been thinking about buying a Passat.

[Chin Strain]

Bear in mind it was a 2003 Passat (new when I bought it) and a 2005 A6 (again, new when I bought it). The Passat had been around a few years and was a good car. I had the TDi Sport and the ride was ok but a bit soft (the SE was like blancmange). The A6 was a completely new shape. It was a bigger car, which suited my needs, and had better quality materials. The move to the Audi Multi Media Interface from a normal stereo was a pretty vast change. All in all, it was the overall quality that was better and you'd expect that for the price difference, which I think was around the £5k mark at the time - ok by me for a much bigger car.

 

New Passat (which I think is about to be replaced) is pretty good and my old man has one. However, there's a new A6 next year and I assume the difference will be pretty big when you compare a car coming to the end of its shelf life to one at the start.

 

Guess it depends on budget - Passat is a decent car. A6 is better. All IMO of course!

[dubai_phil]

I bought a 3 year old BMW 523i auto in 2000.

 

I pay around 500 quid a year to keep it on the road. I've blown the clutch, cracked cylinder heads (45 mins from the centre of Ras Al Khamaih to Dubai at 220KPH during Ramadanwhen they turn the speed cameras off at Iftar). It still runs, it still looks good and it is still a damned good drive and I get asked to sell it about once a month.

 

It is now "The kids" car or my emergency machine when my Grand Cherokee (similar vintage) needs servicing. It starts first time even if not touched for 3 months. It is a superb machine

 

Best damned car I ever drove & I used to run up 60k a year miles in the UK, would never buy a new one due to the depreciation here vs a Camry but I love it

[gary r]

Surely a BMW is a poor mans Lexus?

 

you are taking the ****

[LostBoys]

I love beating up BMWs especially the ones with the funny M on them they have apoplexy when I outrun them. The joke is though that my car is a BMW colour!!!

[dune]

You can't beat german cars for build quality. I drive an Audi and it's built like a tank. If you're gonna wrap your car round an tree i'd rather be in my car than a dagenham dustbin or any other tinny contraption.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

You can't beat german cars for build quality. I drive an Audi and it's built like a tank. If you're gonna wrap your car round an tree i'd rather be in my car than a dagenham dustbin or any other tinny contraption.

 

The (100k mile) A reg Audi 100 I had years ago was easily the most costly to maintain motor I've ever had , the old Volvo Wagon I drive now in contrast (similar mileage) has cost me virtually £0 to repair in 18 months of ownership . BMW's & Audi's are good drivers cars but Saab's & Volvo's are better built in my experience & don't carry quite the same 'complete nobber' stigma .

[dune]

BMW's & Audi's are good drivers cars but Saab's & Volvo's are better built in my experience & don't carry quite the same 'complete nobber' stigma .

 

It depends how you categories a "complete nobber". Driving a Saab or a Volvo is fine if you're a senior citizen, but if not you just look like a history teacher that's lost his caravan.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

It depends how you categories a "complete nobber". Driving a Saab or a Volvo is fine if you're a senior citizen, but if not you just look like a history teacher that's lost his caravan.

 

Many , many a beemer driver have been left embarrassed by a hard driven T5 or V70R over the years I can assure you - not that I would encourage that sort of thing obviously . The fact that the Police have used them as the traffic car of choice for many years rather proves the point I'd say . The stereotype of all BMW & Audi drivers being a bunch 'nobbers' is of course grossly unfair , but lets just say there's a grain of truth in there somewhere that leaves these brands somewhat 'beyond the pale' as far as the more discerning motorist is (or should be) concerned .

 

You criticize Fords ..etc as 'Daganham Dustbins' but it seems to me that the numberless hordes of met silver , mid range , Audi's & BMW's saloons that clog our roads today are precisely the modern day equivalent of the fleets of beige MK IV Cortina's that ruled the middle management driveways of my youth .

 

If I had the choice of any new car I liked I'd always go for something a little more 'left field' (the new Saab 9-5 or a Mitsubishi Gallant for instance) over some highly efficient , but oh-so predictable Germanic 'safe choice' that represents all the individuality of your typical microwave oven .

Edited 9 July, 2010 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[buctootim]

You criticize Fords ..etc as 'Daganham Dustbins' but it seems to me that the numberless hordes of met silver , mid range , Audi's & BMW's saloons that clog our roads today are precisely the modern day equivalent of the fleets of beige MK IV Cortina's that ruled the middle management driveways of my youth . If I had the choice of any new car I liked I'd always go for something a little more 'left field' (the new Saab 9-5 or a Mitsubishi Gallant for instance) over some highly efficient , but oh-so predictable Germanic 'safe choice' that represents all the individuality of your typical microwave oven .

 

 

 

Its not just me who finds the lack of indivdual thought processes scary then? So many Brits have bought into the marketing created idea that German cars are some how 'prestige' and better engineered than others and that to be taken seriously its has to be in silver, or possibly boy racer black. In most cases the Audis /VW, BMWs and Mercedes arent even best in class, let alone class leading and desrving of a price premium.

[Chin Strain]

Its not just me who finds the lack of indivdual thought processes scary then? So many Brits have bought into the marketing created idea that German cars are some how 'prestige' and better engineered than others and that to be taken seriously its has to be in silver, or possibly boy racer black. In most cases the Audis /VW, BMWs and Mercedes arent even best in class, let alone class leading and desrving of a price premium.

 

It's personal choice. The kind of car that I'm looking for simply doesn't exist from the 'non premium' manufacturers. There are many considerations that I have when I buy a new car. Quality and price at outset (and the sort of deal I can get), how it drives, how it looks, space inside (I'm 6 ft 4 with 2 kids), emissions and, a major consideration, resale value. Sure I could go and get one of the big offerings from Peugeot, Citroen, Honda or someone else.....but I might as well just burn all my money and be done with it.

 

This bollix about buying into the marketing of a certain brand is ludicrous. I've got an A5, and bought it because I wanted one, could afford it and got a bloody good deal. There aren't many similar offerings from other brands, so my choice for what I wanted was limited. Resale will be good, the quality is very good and I have faith that it won't be falling apart in a couple of years. You get in an Audi, BMW or Mercedes and then come back on here and say if the equivalent Vauxhall, Ford or Kia is built as well. I bought a brand new A6 in 2007 and a friend of mine had a Saab 93 that he got a month later. Within 2 years the Saab was falling to bits (same mileage), the passenger seat felt like your granny's old sofa and the plastics were shocking. The A6 was like new.

 

Anyway, on 29 June (post 65) you said you were considering getting a Passat. Now you're slagging VW....what happened?

[dune]

You get in an Audi, BMW or Mercedes and then come back on here and say if the equivalent Vauxhall, Ford or Kia is built as well. I bought a brand new A6 in 2007 and a friend of mine had a Saab 93 that he got a month later. Within 2 years the Saab was falling to bits (same mileage), the passenger seat felt like your granny's old sofa and the plastics were shocking. The A6 was like new.

 

Exactly. Give the bonnet and the dashboard of a German car a little tap and it's solid, do the same on a Ford, Vauxhall, peugeot etc and it's cheap and flimsy. And check out 10 year old cars and you'll strugle to find any rust on audi's, but budget cars are falling apart.

[.comsaint]

Exactly. Give the bonnet and the dashboard of a German car a little tap and it's solid, do the same on a Ford, Vauxhall, peugeot etc and it's cheap and flimsy. And check out 10 year old cars and you'll strugle to find any rust on audi's, but budget cars are falling apart.

 

That's may well have been true in the past - but not anymore. I purchased the new Ford Fiesta top-of-the-range Titanium back in January & the build quality is superb. The dashboard is infact 'rubberised' and the bonnet/panels are very sturdy. The car has boron steel all over it for safety - the hardest steel known to man. No it's not 'quite' an Audi or BMW - but it's an extremely well-made car inside & out - and the carpeting/upholstery fabrics used are second-to-none - not even the German marques. As for build quality - again - extremely good. But then again - it was build in Cologne, Germany!

[buctootim]

It's personal choice. The kind of car that I'm looking for simply doesn't exist from the 'non premium' manufacturers. There are many considerations that I have when I buy a new car. Quality and price at outset (and the sort of deal I can get), how it drives, how it looks, space inside (I'm 6 ft 4 with 2 kids), emissions and, a major consideration, resale value. Sure I could go and get one of the big offerings from Peugeot, Citroen, Honda or someone else.....but I might as well just burn all my money and be done with it.

 

This bollix about buying into the marketing of a certain brand is ludicrous. I've got an A5, and bought it because I wanted one, could afford it and got a bloody good deal. There aren't many similar offerings from other brands, so my choice for what I wanted was limited. Resale will be good, the quality is very good and I have faith that it won't be falling apart in a couple of years. You get in an Audi, BMW or Mercedes and then come back on here and say if the equivalent Vauxhall, Ford or Kia is built as well. I bought a brand new A6 in 2007 and a friend of mine had a Saab 93 that he got a month later. Within 2 years the Saab was falling to bits (same mileage), the passenger seat felt like your granny's old sofa and the plastics were shocking. The A6 was like new.

 

Anyway, on 29 June (post 65) you said you were considering getting a Passat. Now you're slagging VW....what happened?

 

Im not slagging VW/ Audi, BMW or Mercedes off. Most of them are very good cars, especally the larger Audis, BMWs and Mercs. A2 /3 Audi, 3 series BMW and C class mercedes are not imo. If a manufacturer has the best car for you, of course go for it. My point is that a lot of posters / buyers have bought into the idea that German cars are the only ones worth having - that French cars have crap electrics, Italians rust, Japanese are boring, Korean are crap. Its that mantra I find ridiculous.

[dune]

Im not slagging VW/ Audi, BMW or Mercedes off. Most of them are very good cars, especally the larger Audis, BMWs and Mercs. A2 /3 Audi, 3 series BMW and C class mercedes are not imo. If a manufacturer has the best car for you, of course go for it. My point is that a lot of posters / buyers have bought into the idea that German cars are the only ones worth having - that French cars have crap electrics, Italians rust, Japanese are boring, Korean are crap. Its that mantra I find ridiculous.

 

French cars are crap - all of them.

[Ponty]

3 years of owning my R26 and nothing's fallen off yet, Dune, and it'll run rings around anything in its class made by the Germans.

[dune]

3 years of owning my R26 and nothing's fallen off yet, Dune, and it'll run rings around anything in its class made by the Germans.

 

But does it pass the bonnet/dashboard test?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

French cars are crap - all of them.

 

One of the most expensive and sought after cars in the world - The car of kings - The Bugatti Type 57 Atlantic

 

 

The most advanced car of its era - The revolutionary Traction Avant

 

 

A car fit for Presidents and perhaps the ultimate expression of automotive style - The Citroen DS

 

 

Last but not least , the classic car I want above all others - The extraordinary Citroen SM

 

[Chin Strain]

Im not slagging VW/ Audi, BMW or Mercedes off. Most of them are very good cars, especally the larger Audis, BMWs and Mercs. A2 /3 Audi, 3 series BMW and C class mercedes are not imo. If a manufacturer has the best car for you, of course go for it. My point is that a lot of posters / buyers have bought into the idea that German cars are the only ones worth having - that French cars have crap electrics, Italians rust, Japanese are boring, Korean are crap. Its that mantra I find ridiculous.

 

I have no experience of any German cars of this size so can't comment....apart from the Golf, which is superb (and the Passat was decent). I'd be hard pushed to buy an A3 over a new Golf to be fair.

 

What gets my goat is posters (Cestrian Saint for example) stating that I've been done by the marketeers without considering that many mainstream manufacturers don't actually make a car that I want to buy.

 

Just one point though...I've not had a BMW in my car history, but the 3 series is always held up as the best car in it's class, bar none. Seems like the experts all agree that they're pretty special.

[Chin Strain]

3 years of owning my R26 and nothing's fallen off yet, Dune, and it'll run rings around anything in its class made by the Germans.

 

Not had a French car since my 205 1.9 GTi back in the early 90's. Great car to drive and reliability was ok, but plenty of niggly issues. Have to say, the CRX I followed it up with blew it away on quality, and was a better drive too, albeit not so quick. Granted that the GTi was a 1989 and the CRX an 87, so things have moved on.

 

Only recent experience of a French car was in 2006 when a Scenic I had in Majorca (brand new) packed in up in the mountains. Liked the car, but the quality of the plastics and interior trim was pretty poor TBH.

[Ponty]

Not had a French car since my 205 1.9 GTi back in the early 90's. Great car to drive and reliability was ok, but plenty of niggly issues. Have to say, the CRX I followed it up with blew it away on quality, and was a better drive too, albeit not so quick. Granted that the GTi was a 1989 and the CRX an 87, so things have moved on.

 

Only recent experience of a French car was in 2006 when a Scenic I had in Majorca (brand new) packed in up in the mountains. Liked the car, but the quality of the plastics and interior trim was pretty poor TBH.

 

TBF, the R26 was a special order and was hand assembled in the RenaultSport factory, rather than on the usual plant line. It doesn't deflect from the fact that the majority of the cars in the car park at work are Renaults and I've not heard many (if any to tell the truth) complaints. Things have changed somewhat in the last few years.

[.comsaint]

French cars are crap - all of them.

 

Not this beauty - the new DS3 from Citroen. You won't find a bad review anywhere on the web - in any magazine - and even the three presenters at Top Gear sing its praises very highly - including Clarkson who wrote that "...this is the best of the small cars by a very, very long way." unquote.