So another BA strike by cabin crew

[Gemmel]

That's what I said in my post you quoted.

 

Although, and I'm happy to be corrected on this, I understood that crew only got 'freebies' (although in fact they have to pay a percentage) if the seat was going to be empty.

 

They didn't get 'free' seats at the expense of fare paying passengers.

 

That was certainly the case when my friends were crew for BA.

 

But giving empty seats to crew must cost a fortune - you're quite right.

 

It doesnt matter how much or how little they cost.....even if the administration charges are 50p or the extra tax 1p..... they CAN"T AFFORD IT. .... The union has screwed the company into 100's of millions of pounds worth of losses. They knew what the deal on the table was before they went on strike and now moaning after the event.

 

I am surprised you are favour of so much unnecessary flying...... carbon emissions and all that.

 

So if the bank is empty, who is going to pay the administration charges, the taxes, the BA employees who have to book the flights, check them in etc etc etc.

 

You want Eutopia BTF.... It doesnt exist and certainly not in today's world. I would have thought someone like yourself would be disgusted at such abuse of rights and privilages that so many fought so hard for.

 

YOu are doing nothing more than sticking up for the minority opinion, which im guessing you have done all your life.

Very noble in many cases, but not in this case.

 

The unions are about to blow all the work put in by their forefathers and when the strike is broken, the vast vast vast majoirty of this country will have seen them for what they are.

[TopGun]

Yeah this was discussed on the previous thread. I can't be arsed to go back and look but I think it was around 11% IIRC.

 

I don't think the 'non-dom' issue is relevant actually. I bet a good number of British crew work for overseas airlines too.

 

Since BA flies to foreign countries, it's probably a good thing to have a multi-national workforce since it's not the norm for we Brits to speak in tongues.

 

I admit to being facetious with non-dom as a term but I don't expect the French will mind if I use Air France to commute from Manchester to my cabin starting point in Paris twice a week either...

[buctootim]

Yeah this was discussed on the previous thread. I can't be arsed to go back and look but I think it was around 11% IIRC.

 

I don't think the 'non-dom' issue is relevant actually. I bet a good number of British crew work for overseas airlines too.

 

Since BA flies to foreign countries, it's probably a good thing to have a multi-national workforce since it's not the norm for we Brits to speak in tongues.

 

You dont need to have to live abroad to speak a foreign language. American Express' European call centre is in Brighton. They have staff speaking 30 languages. Last I heard they seemed to be doing just fine.

[buctootim]

The unions are about to blow all the work put in by their forefathers and when the strike is broken, the vast vast vast majoirty of this country will have seen them for what they are.

 

This. Plus the union are dumping on their own members at Gatwick and London City who get paid less, arent striking - but will be screwed by the fallout from this strike.

[bridge too far]

You dont need to have to live abroad to speak a foreign language. American Express' European call centre is in Brighton. They have staff speaking 30 languages. Last I heard they seemed to be doing just fine.

 

You miss my point. A number of BA crew are nationals from the countries that BA serves.

 

Are those American Express call centre workers all British? Or are they nationals from other countries allowed to work in the UK?

[TopGun]

This. Plus the union are dumping on their own members at Gatwick and London City who get paid less, arent striking - but will be screwed by the fallout from this strike.

 

Absolutely right again. Solidarity is not the name of the game here.

 

FF says he has spent 20 days on a picket line. I expect many BA staff are revolted.

Edited 9 June, 2010 by TopGun
not revolting!

[buctootim]

You miss my point. A number of BA crew are nationals from the countries that BA serves.

 

Are those American Express call centre workers all British? Or are they nationals from other countries allowed to work in the UK?

 

My ex who works for BA is Swedish living in Brighton - she speaks four languages. Her BA friends are Spanish, French and Italian living in Brighton or Crawley. The same applies to American Express. Hope that helps.

[TopGun]

I think you all know I am a leftie but I bloody hate union excesses as much as I dislike bad employers.

[Arizona]

I think you all know I am a leftie but I bloody hate union excesses as much as I dislike bad employers.

 

And Ironically for the union, most of the crew on strike are greedy, old fasioned Tory types looking out for number 1.

[bridge too far]

My ex who works for BA is Swedish living in Brighton - she speaks four languages. Her BA friends are Spanish, French and Italian living in Brighton or Crawley. The same applies to American Express. Hope that helps.

 

Thankyou - that's what I thought (with regard to the American Express workers).

 

Since BA is a (British owned) European carrier, serving European destinations, it is perfectly understandable that some of the European crew live in those European countries too.

[derry]

I would have thought that the simple fact that the majority of staff in BA have negotiated a settlement and are working normally, with the exception of the BASSA members, shows that the management are being supported by the staff.

[CB Saint]

I would have thought that the simple fact that the majority of staff in BA have negotiated a settlement and are working normally, with the exception of the BASSA members, shows that the management are being supported by the staff.

 

Ah so the "climate of fear" is only being felt by the stubborn heathrow lot.

[buctootim]

Thankyou - that's what I thought (with regard to the American Express workers).

 

Since BA is a (British owned) European carrier, serving European destinations, it is perfectly understandable that some of the European crew live in those European countries too.

 

Err. No its not. BA do not have operating hubs in Europe. It makes no more sense for BA staff to fly into work than it does for Crawley Hilton staff to jet in from Milan.

[bridge too far]

Err. No its not. BA do not have operating hubs in Europe. It makes no more sense for BA staff to fly into work than it does for Crawley Hilton staff to jet in from Milan.

 

Oh OK thanks.

 

I have a friend who lives in mid France and commutes to the UK to work.

 

Of course, he has to fly.

 

So no different to, say, a French crew member flying into the UK to work. After all, it's cheaper to live in France.

 

Nothing wrong with that - we're Europeans after all

 

So we come back to the 'freebies'. Which aren't free. And which are only given to staff if there are spare seats. What's so wrong with that?

 

Edit

 

You can tell I don't fly any more! I thought BA flew to European destinations. I'm sure I flew BA to Alicante some years ago - has it changed?

[Whitey Grandad]

Although, and I'm happy to be corrected on this, I understood that crew only got 'freebies' (although in fact they have to pay a percentage) if the seat was going to be empty.

 

They didn't get 'free' seats at the expense of fare paying passengers.

 

That was certainly the case when my friends were crew for BA.

 

But giving empty seats to crew must cost a fortune - you're quite right.

There were a few comments in The Times over the weekend from travellers who found that seats they had requested were 'not available' and were later found to be occupied by BA colleagues.

[buctootim]

Oh OK thanks.

 

-

You can tell I don't fly any more! I thought BA flew to European destinations. I'm sure I flew BA to Alicante some years ago - has it changed?

 

 

Are you deliberately obtuse BTF? Im beginning to suspect so. There is a big difference between flying from Gatick to a destination and back again and having planes and crew based in europe permanently.

[Arizona]

Oh OK thanks.

 

I have a friend who lives in mid France and commutes to the UK to work.

 

Of course, he has to fly.

 

So no different to, say, a French crew member flying into the UK to work. After all, it's cheaper to live in France.

 

Nothing wrong with that - we're Europeans after all

 

So we come back to the 'freebies'. Which aren't free. And which are only given to staff if there are spare seats. What's so wrong with that?

 

Edit

 

You can tell I don't fly any more! I thought BA flew to European destinations. I'm sure I flew BA to Alicante some years ago - has it changed?

 

The cost. Taxes, fuel surcharges and various other fees per passenger etc.

 

BA flies to many destinations. The only hubs they have, i.e. where crew and aircraft are based, are Heathrow and Gatwick.

[bridge too far]

The cost. Taxes, fuel surcharges and various other fees per passenger etc.

 

BA flies to many destinations. The only hubs they have, i.e. where crew and aircraft are based, are Heathrow and Gatwick.

 

Aah just found an article explaining it all:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8586933.stm

 

So they DO have to pay taxes on top of the discounted ticket rates and it confirms that they are on standby.

 

And, if you read to the bottom of the article, it seems that other airlines operate a similar system.

[bridge too far]

Are you deliberately obtuse BTF? Im beginning to suspect so. There is a big difference between flying from Gatick to a destination and back again and having planes and crew based in europe permanently.

 

No I'm not being obtuse at all. If a BA plane flies to a destination, then I'm saying it's understandable that a crew member might choose to live in that destination (and hop on the return flight to Gatwick / Heathrow to go to work).

 

Sorry if I didn't make my point clear.

[CB Saint]

There were a few comments in The Times over the weekend from travellers who found that seats they had requested were 'not available' and were later found to be occupied by BA colleagues.

 

My folks have have on several occasions not been able to sit together dispite requesting to do so when booking because the BA crew have taken seats on the plane. Doesn't sound so bad until you consider they had paid full price for business class seats.

[bridge too far]

My folks have have on several occasions not been able to sit together dispite requesting to do so when booking because the BA crew have taken seats on the plane. Doesn't sound so bad until you consider they had paid full price for business class seats.

 

That's bad - very bad management IMO.

[Arizona]

Travel perks are a priviledge, not a right. I fail to see why a company would give bonuses to people who are trying to bankrupt them. What are you expecting to happen here? BA just to turn round and say, "oh you're trying to drive us out of business, that's fine you can just carry on as normal, here's some free tickets to the Maldives"

[Weston Super Saint]

That's bad - very bad management IMO.

 

Are you suggesting it would be very good management if this practice were to cease?

 

I would imagine that you would therefore be right behind little Willie and what he is trying to do to ensure the paying customer gets the BEST experience possible

[Ponty]

Just to interject a second, it's not free to carry a member of staff in a seat that would have otherwise been empty. Unless, of course, you know of an engine which can move a volume at the same velocity, with the same use of energy, regardless of mass.

 

It might be a small amount, relatively speaking, but hundreds of non-paying passengers would soon rack up considerable cost.

[bridge too far]

Just to interject a second, it's not free to carry a member of staff in a seat that would have otherwise been empty. Unless, of course, you know of an engine which can move a volume at the same velocity, with the same use of energy, regardless of mass.

 

It might be a small amount, relatively speaking, but hundreds of non-paying passengers would soon rack up considerable cost.

 

But they're not non-paying. They apparently (according to all press reports I've read) pay a percentage plus taxes.

[Ponty]

I was just going by the last post I read before I replied. I'm now going to withdraw graciously and gracefully from this thread.

[bridge too far]

Are you suggesting it would be very good management if this practice were to cease?

 

I would imagine that you would therefore be right behind little Willie and what he is trying to do to ensure the paying customer gets the BEST experience possible

 

No, I'm suggesting that it's bad practice to put BA staff before paying customers. And that's something management should address.

 

From what I've read (and that's all I can do - my friends no longer work in the industry), staff often have to wait until the very last minute to find out if they've got a seat.

 

But I guess, very occasionally, they get allocated a seat and then a paying fare turns up even later.

 

I wonder how other airlines that operate concessionary travel for staff manage THAT situation?

[Gemmel]

No, I'm suggesting that it's bad practice to put BA staff before paying customers. And that's something management should address.

 

Unite would probaly go on strike - BA can't win (Well they can and will on this particular strike)

[CB Saint]

No, I'm suggesting that it's bad practice to put BA staff before paying customers. And that's something management should address.

From what I've read (and that's all I can do - my friends no longer work in the industry), staff often have to wait until the very last minute to find out if they've got a seat.

 

But I guess, very occasionally, they get allocated a seat and then a paying fare turns up even later.

 

I wonder how other airlines that operate concessionary travel for staff manage THAT situation?

 

If they did they probably would be accused of bullying;)

 

I suspect that there is a little bit of collusion between checkin staff and the travelling crew. When you book a ticket on BA you usually specifiy your seat then. It just so happened that their pre booked seats were mysteriously unavailable when they turned up to check in.

[dubai_phil]

Phil,

 

Emirates (and the other growing Gulf carriers) have a huge geographical advantage for a lot of the Europe/Far East traffic, where a refuelling stop is required. That will be eroded as range increases. It won't be long before London/Sydney non-stop becomes a reality.

 

A350 will manage 8,000 miles, but then the A340 when first launched was supposed to fly ME to JFK and still had to land for fuel in Cyprus.

 

The critical point will be ticket cost. Emirates (Qatar & Etihad) are gaining share by offering a quality service (if stressful at times) but at a lower base cost (and ticket price) than the "Flag Carriers" on point to point flights. That won't change dramatically. BUT be aware that Emirates look years to the future and Open Skies means they could very easily eventually offer services from Birmingham/Manchester etc to the US. They tested the strategy with Dubai - Hamburg - New York and drew in a large catchment area by linking with trains from Denmark & Berlin.

 

The model of being a tranist based airline is the differentiating factor for BA/Emirates. BA want to be all sorts to all types and is not getting it right.

 

However, their regional focus is impressive and understandably popular. I am not a Heathrow-lover. I lived in Milton Keynes for a couple of years recently (hardly a million miles from London), but generally used Birmingham for long-haul (transit in Amsterdam or Paris), and Luton for short-haul European. That virtually ruled out BA as an option. BA's policy of ignoring the regions is costing them, and will continue to do so.

 

Emirates haven't quite got it right with the fleet. They operate both A340s and 777s. I've yet to travel on a comfortable A340, and I've been on a lot, including Emirates. BA's reluctance to jump in quickly with the A380 is in some ways understandable. History has shown that the launch version of any radically new airliner quickly becomes obsolete. BA is, and has been for a long time, the world's biggest 747-400 operator and it still has a lot of legs in that fleet. They're still living with the King/Marshall "BA will buy anything but Boeing over my dead body" philosophy. But the 757s are now pretty much gone, the 737s are on the way out quickly and the 767s will go soon when the new 787s arrive. They're still bringing in new 777s but they are very flexible and have a long future.

 

yes, but they are still buying the short versions (777-200's when most others are buying the higher capacity 300's) On some routes the smaller ones work but the capacity/mix isn't quite right.

A340's in economy are like A330's pants, the seats are designed for the average Asian passenger not a 6 footer. Emirates cram a 3-4-3 into their 777's vs BA's 3-3-3 which again can be very squashed. Emirates themselves are unhappy with the A340's and have had stern words with Airbus. The idea of the 600's was the range to go non-stop to JFK, Sydney & Sao Paolo from here. The introduction of the 777LR range has negated that now BUT for about 4 years the A340 was the only machine to that job and it came at the right time to build the network and offer the services that have now started hurting other flag carriers

 

At the end of the day, however, it's the customer experience that prevails, at least for the frequent traveller, which is where the airlines make their money. On small example - while BA/Virgin and the others are still running up and down the aisle furiously making sure that you've turned your mobile phone or blackberry off, Emirates are telling you that you can leave it on, and feel free to use it at any time during the flight. It's little things like that which make the real difference.

 

Emirates operate with the minimum crew for an aircraft so they are always rushed. Their meal service commences 1.5 hours AFTER takeoff and it will normally take 1.5 to 2 hours before the trays are cleared. BA & Virgin win hands down on that side. Emirates however serve a 4 course meal and most times it is actually edible. BA - I now take Pret-A-Manger or pre order Seafood in economy due to their desire to shove pasta in tomato ketchup down everyone's necks.

 

BA outsourced their customer service & frequent flyer services it was a disaster. My operation used to spend 150,000 pounds a year on BA, we switched because their service was a nightmare (included bumping a Gold Card carrying US VP off the flight)

 

 

In general like you say it is about what type of airline do BA want to be, they gave up being regional and left all that money on the floor for their competitors.

[Thedelldays]

But they're not non-paying. They apparently (according to all press reports I've read) pay a percentage plus taxes.

maybe, they should pay what the passengers pay..?

[bridge too far]

maybe, they should pay what the passengers pay..?

 

I think, from what I've read, that most airlines offer this to their staff in one form or another.

 

I think you said you get free travel sometimes?

[Thedelldays]

I think, from what I've read, that most airlines offer this to their staff in one form or another.

 

I think you said you get free travel sometimes?

as a perk..depending on where you are based..other times not

just get on with it if I dont get any free travel..dont strike, dont moan

 

just get on with it..

 

also, we have many people serving from around the commonwealth..they dont get any more free travel (if they are at a place where they get it) than me...ie, they COULD get a train ticket to the airport...that is it

Edited 9 June, 2010 by Thedelldays

[bridge too far]

as a perk..depending on where you are based..other times not

just get on with it if I dont get any free travel..dont strike, dont moan

 

just get on with it..

 

also, we have many people serving from around the commonwealth..they dont get any more free travel (if they are at a place where they get it) any more than me...ie, they COULD get a train ticket to the airport...that is it

 

But you couldn't even if you wanted to, surely?

[Thedelldays]

But you couldn't even if you wanted to, surely?

no, you are right..however, I am free to hand in my notice to leave at anytime if I dont like my terms (that change every year)...and believe me, (i am probably not wrong here) we have to work in far harsher, do more with less, get the job done environment than these people EVER will

[bridge too far]

no, you are right..however, I am free to hand in my notice to leave at anytime if I dont like my terms (that change every year)...and believe me, (i am probably not wrong here) we have to work in far harsher, do more with less, get the job done environment than these people EVER will

 

I don't doubt it. I could never ever do your job (even if I was technically able to do so).

[hutch]

In general like you say it is about what type of airline do BA want to be, they gave up being regional and left all that money on the floor for their competitors.

The 4 "newest" 777s, which I think are already in service, are the standard -200s. The next 6 due for delivery are -300ERs.

 

It's one of the dilemmas the airlines face. If they think they can fill, say, 2,000 seats per day across the atlantic, do they go for 4 x 500 seaters or 7 x 300 seaters? As a business traveller, I prefer the option of 7 flights a day to choose from, but clearly that costs more. Different airlines target different markets.

 

I'm sure there is room for both, but BA have a LOT of issues to deal with before they can be competitive, not just the "Heathrow hosties".

[StuRomseySaint]

no, you are right..however, I am free to hand in my notice to leave at anytime if I dont like my terms (that change every year)...and believe me, (i am probably not wrong here) we have to work in far harsher, do more with less, get the job done environment than these people EVER will

 

What contract are you on?!

 

My notice period was a minimum of one year... at the point of 'signing on' again, it was 2 years.

[Whitey Grandad]

What contract are you on?!

 

My notice period was a minimum of one year... at the point of 'signing on' again, it was 2 years.

Is the notice period shorter for 'undesirables'?

[Thedelldays]

What contract are you on?!

 

My notice period was a minimum of one year... at the point of 'signing on' again, it was 2 years.

22 year contract..

 

I have to put in 1 years notice to leave should I wish..(it used to be 18 months notice)

 

them the rules I signed up for.

 

If left after 12 years, I would be entitled to a half pension

 

left after 22 years, I would get the full lot..

Edited 10 June, 2010 by Thedelldays

[StuRomseySaint]

22 year contract..

 

I have to put in 1 years notice to leave should I wish..(it used to be 18 months notice)

 

them the rules I signed up for.

 

If left after 12 years, I would be entitled to a half pension

 

left after 22 years, I would get the full lot..

 

Open Engagement then.

[stevegrant]

I think, from what I've read, that most airlines offer this to their staff in one form or another.

I would imagine that most airlines aren't haemorrhaging money like they're Allen Stanford's investment returns.

[Whitey Grandad]

I think, from what I've read, that most airlines offer this to their staff in one form or another.

As I understand it, this 'perk' is only being withdrawn from those who went on strike, not from all members of staff. A spiteful, but understandable, move by the management.

[Weston Super Saint]

I think, from what I've read, that most airlines offer this to their staff in one form or another.

 

I think you said you get free travel sometimes?

 

I think you seem to be getting this 'perk of the job' mixed up with an absolute divine right to travel to work as cheaply as possible.

 

Surely a 'perk' is just that and should not be used / relied upon for daily travel. Is it also true that a 'perk' can be removed as and when the needs of the business dictate?

[dubai_phil]

I would imagine that most airlines aren't haemorrhaging money like they're Allen Stanford's investment returns.

 

The magical ID 90 as it is called here. Staff get the airticket at the discount. Emirates crews get some at ID90, some for family at ID50 and if they are in their first year at ID80 I believe.

 

BA are supposed to class staff travel as Standby. The problem there is that they get first call for empty seats on an aircraft.

 

Frequent Flyers (ie LOYAL CUSTOMERS) who have earnt for example 200,000 miles in a one year period due to their jobs then try and book their reward flights to find they are unavailable - because the staff are using them. An ex BA employee once told me that 90% of the supposed available FF seats on the main routes are used by staff taking their families on holidays, so that a customer who spends sya 100k on travel with the airline gets nothing - and eventually takes that business elsewhere.

 

My source tell me that Emirates prioritise the FF reward seats, they recognise that without their regular customers they would lose revenue, so staff don't get standby rights at the same level of priority but they DO get the rights.

 

Oh and another gripe - you can ALWAYS tell the staff flying free on BA Long Haul, because 1) you get no service as the crew are talking to them all the time and 2) after they shut the aircraft doors they invite the crew as far forward in the plane as they can give them so that they get to eat and drink the Business & First class food and beverages. Considering BA serve Johnny Walker BLUE label Whisky & Dom Perignon in first, that's a lot of extra perks.

 

yes I got screwed by this and yes I am still angry and yes I rant about it

[mdearlove]

ID90s are a standard feature for all scheduled airlines affiliated with IATA. The standard is that airline staff in all departments get a certain number of ID90 tickets (the 90 meaning a 90% discount on the standard full economy fare). Nominated family and friends usually get ID75 tickets which usually have a maximum allocation per airline employee.

 

The airlines usually have reciprocal agreements with other airlines around the world. When I worked at Virgin I regularly just turned up at the ticket desk of various airlines and arranged a ticket there and then at the discounted rate. All of the tickets were standby with the lowest priority. Any paying passenger got the seats ahead of staff - as it should be. Most airline staff will carefully plan their travel to coincide with quiet flights - nobody wants to get stuck half way around the world.

 

Dubai_Phil mentioned that you can tell the passengers who are staff because they get upgraded all the time - this is only the case with cabin crew. The other members of staff are treated no differently than normal staff.

 

These tickets are most definitely perks - and my contract with Virgin said so. In fact I had mine taking away because I did a sneaky change in the reservation system to get my self an upgrade I wasn't entitled too. That cost me 6 months of the perks. Stupid thing to do really as the money was crap and the only thing keeping me there were the flight benefits.

[derry]

There is also the more important one or two annual free firm tickets for staff and immediate family (wife/children U21) which are bookable and not offloadable. Depending on status club/business/first seats.

 

I was often upgraded at check in automatically as my tickets showed my rank.

[buctootim]

Oh and another gripe - you can ALWAYS tell the staff flying free on BA Long Haul, because 1) you get no service as the crew are talking to them all the time and 2) after they shut the aircraft doors they invite the crew as far forward in the plane as they can give them so that they get to eat and drink the Business & First class food and beverages. Considering BA serve Johnny Walker BLUE label Whisky & Dom Perignon in first, that's a lot of extra perks.

 

yes I got screwed by this and yes I am still angry and yes I rant about it

 

I was nearly always upgraded to business from economy ID90 when flying on my partners booking -even when she wasnt with me. Embarrassingly the cabin crew would often give me an unsolicited full carrier bag of spirit minitures and champagne to take as a carry off as well. Must cost BA a fortune.

[Thedelldays]

I was nearly always upgraded to business from economy ID90 when flying on my partners booking -even when she wasnt with me. Embarrassingly the cabin crew would often give me an unsolicited full carrier bag of spirit minitures and champagne to take as a carry off as well. Must cost BA a fortune.

no fuking wonder they dont want to lose this perk

[Saint George]

No, I'm suggesting that it's bad practice to put BA staff before paying customers. And that's something management should address.

 

From what I've read (and that's all I can do - my friends no longer work in the industry), staff often have to wait until the very last minute to find out if they've got a seat.

 

But I guess, very occasionally, they get allocated a seat and then a paying fare turns up even later.

 

I wonder how other airlines that operate concessionary travel for staff manage THAT situation?

 

I can tell you how they do it over here...Staff on discount passes wait at the boarding gate until every last paying passenger, including standby passengers are on the plane and they're about to shut the plane door....Then they call in the staff passengers and literally shut the door and pull the gangway away behind them....there is no 'later' left for a paying fare.