Installment plans cost the club NOTHING

[The9]

Just for the record, having said all along I would like to get an ST but can't afford it at that kind of notice, I wandered into my bank to set up some accounts on Saturday, and walked out having extended a bank loan until 2014, and went straight from there to St Mary's to renew for me and the missus.

 

My choice was to pay the club what I regard a reasonable amount for an ST up front by June 30th, or pay one of the forms of Cortese Tax - either the £70 for "new ST" non-renewals (but I was an ST holder last year, why should I?), or the match by match rates with booking fees for online (why?) or telephone (hmmm), or the walk-up tax on the day.

 

Had there been an instalment plan I'd have gone on that, as anything up to 20% on £328 over 6 months is really neither here nor there, so it's not really about getting credit, it's about having the choice to pay conveniently, and customer service.

 

As I have no intention of rewarding Mr Cortese for his supporter-unfriendly policies, and due to the timing of the ST announcement had little option, I have effectively chosen to give the additional income raised from the lack of instalment plan to my bank rather than lump it and be forced into giving it to the club match-by-match and be further inconvenience by queues and travelling to the TO.

 

After all, the bank were helpful, supportive and flexible. The club has merely instigated resentment where there did not need to be any and put me in a difficult position.

 

It was almost as difficult as coming to grips with StuRomseySaint as a rational, reasonable, motivated human being with the nous and ability to disprove the club's claims.

 

Much respect to you for your remarkable patience in fielding the same questions over and over and over, Stuey.

Edited 7 June, 2010 by The9

[StuRomseySaint]

Here is another one to the " don't be so stupid, the club are not trying to push people away from having a season ticket " brigade.

 

... have you all recieved your renewal packs?

 

Oh...

 

I wonder why not...?

 

The club does not want season ticket holders, I can't understand why so many people can't see this.

[dune]

Here is another one to the " don't be so stupid, the club are not trying to push people away from having a season ticket " brigade.

 

... have you all recieved your renewal packs?

 

Oh...

 

I wonder why not...?

 

The club does not want season ticket holders, I can't understand why so many people can't see this.

 

It's crystal clear that Cortese wants to squeeze as much money as possible out of fans and that means individual ticket sales, the ticket tax, and memberships. If you add £3 (ticket tax) + £1 or a bit more (the cost of membership divided by the times the card is used) to the cost of a £22 ticket then you can get the real cost of a ticket. So in reality the cost of games is somewhere between £26 and £30 depending on where you choose to sit. If Cortese is charging this in the 3rd division we're going to be among the most expensive clubs in the world to watch football soon.

[StuRomseySaint]

*** COPY OF EMAIL SENT TO NICOLA CORTESE ***

 

Dear Mr Cortese,

 

I am writing once again with regards to your pricing structure for the 2010/2011 season, which I believe to be directly aggressive in the hope of ensuring minimal take up on the season tickets, trying to maximise your income on a match by match basis, at the expense of us, the fans.

 

I have looked into the claims coming from the club, which state that the instalment plan has been removed due to the rise in administration costs. I believe this either not to be true, either that or all viable options have not been explored.

 

I spoke to Zebra Finance last week to find out the costs of implementing such a scheme. I was told by the representative at Zebra finance that every package is bespoke and there needs to be no costs incurred by the club. Zebra claim their administration fees by collecting interest on the payments, or an administration fee etc, which carries zero cost to the football club. Of course there are other options, such as interest-free options in which there may be some cost to the club, but from the discussions I had with Zebra Finance, they ensured me there needs to be no direct cost to the club.

 

In your Fans Charter you have a very clear target for the 09-10 season: http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/staticFiles/5f/44/0,,10280~148575,00.pdf

 

09-10 Season Targets

 

• Via our Supporter engagement policy, we will seek feedback on ticket prices for forthcoming seasons in an attempt to ensure maximum supporter buy-in.

 

This is your very own target from your very own Supporters Charter which you drew up only a few months ago. There has been absolutely zero communication that I am aware of with Southampton fans with regards to Season Ticket pricing structures for the 2010/2011 season, so you have clearly not met that target.

 

Your pricing structure for the 2010/2011 season is not one which will ensure maximum supporter buy-in, it is a directly aggressive structure to make the buying of Season Tickets as restrictive as possible, to try and maximise the income by reducing the amount of ‘discount price’ customers the club has and increasing the number of pay on the day ‘premium paying’ customers.

 

1. Why have the club decided to wait until June 1st to release details of the Season Tickets and offer fans only a 30 day window to renew?

2. Why was there no prior warning that the season ticket instalment plan was not being renewed in the months prior to the announcement?

3. Why has the official line been the removal was down to administration costs, when clearly this was not the case?

 

As a business as well, I am sure that if you were looking for a maximum supporter buy-in then you would have at least sent a renewal pack out to the customer? Or as in previous seasons, conducted some advertising and marketing to make people aware of the season ticket renewals. This is another example as proof how I believe that you, as a football club, are trying to minimise the amount of discount fans the club has and make them restrictive as possible.

 

With regards to the ticket booking charges, added to the match day prices, they make ours the most expensive in the league, and I see them as another opportunity to get more revenue from the supporter.

 

You have stated that the replica shirt next season is having no sponsor as a ‘gesture’ to the fans for our 125th. Well the booking charges, 15% increase in season tickets, the fact that the replica shirt is only for one season and the extra revenue you will get from forcing people to pay on the day will more than cover the amount you lose. Now you will know better than me, but I estimate you will get well in excess of £1m in extra revenue from these new revenue streams, whereas you might command about a quarter of that in Sponsorship fees, one thing I am certain of is that the new charges/price increases will be more than any sponsorship income.

 

So do excuse me Mr Cortese if I do see it as a case of giving something with one hand and taking more with the other hand.

 

It is our 125th anniversary, if you want it to be a special year, then can I propose that you make the selling of tickets as easy as possible for Southampton fans so we can all be there for the celebrations? Although I do not speak on behalf of everyone, I would be happy to pay a premium/interest/standard renewal rate if it meant having the opportunity to pay in instalments. Zebra Finance have indicated to me that the instalment scheme can be set up in a matter of days, so there is still time to set it up this season, if, as in your supporters charter, you really do want maximum supporter buy-in. I understand the supporters charter relates to 09-10 season, but the targets set down in it relate to forthcoming season ticket prices etc, which relate to the 2010/2011 season.

 

Can I please request that the club show they take their targets and supporters charter seriously and show us, the fans of the club that they do indeed want maximum supporter buy-in and want as many fans inside the stadium as possible to celebrate our 125th anniversary. I have confirmation from Zebra that they would be happy to work with SFC and can implement a scheme at no cost to the club and in a timely fashion to allow the scheme to run for this season ( even if the prices are based on the ‘new’ season ticket rates and/or interest is charged) . It’s not about the cost, it’s about giving the fans options to ensure as many people as possible can renew/buy their season ticket next season.

 

If time is that much of an issue, I am even willing to speak to them on your behalf to obtain a full quote and costings of a scheme, which I can forward on to you.

 

So what are you waiting for?!

 

I would appreciate a response to this email detailing the clubs thoughts on the ticketing structure and the points I have addressed in this email.

 

**********************************************************************************************************

 

 

Like people have said, the ball is in the clubs court now.

[Block 5]

Stu, you have NC's email address?

[StuRomseySaint]

Stu, you have NC's email address?

 

No, requested Dave Luker forward it.

[Block 5]

No, requested Dave Luker forward it.

 

Ah well.

His is the holy grail of email addresses.

 

I do hope that the club don't just ignore this issue; but the lack of comment so far would suggest that they are burying their heads in the sand rather than engaging with their customers (as per the meaningless 'charter').

[NickG]

*** COPY OF EMAIL SENT TO NICOLA CORTESE ***

 

Dear Mr Cortese,

 

I am writing once again with regards to your pricing structure for the 2010/2011 season, which I believe to be directly aggressive in the hope of ensuring minimal take up on the season tickets, trying to maximise your income on a match by match basis, at the expense of us, the fans.

 

I have looked into the claims coming from the club, which state that the instalment plan has been removed due to the rise in administration costs. I believe this either not to be true, either that or all viable options have not been explored.

 

I spoke to Zebra Finance last week to find out the costs of implementing such a scheme. I was told by the representative at Zebra finance that every package is bespoke and there needs to be no costs incurred by the club. Zebra claim their administration fees by collecting interest on the payments, or an administration fee etc, which carries zero cost to the football club. Of course there are other options, such as interest-free options in which there may be some cost to the club, but from the discussions I had with Zebra Finance, they ensured me there needs to be no direct cost to the club.

 

In your Fans Charter you have a very clear target for the 09-10 season: http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/staticFiles/5f/44/0,,10280~148575,00.pdf

 

09-10 Season Targets

 

• Via our Supporter engagement policy, we will seek feedback on ticket prices for forthcoming seasons in an attempt to ensure maximum supporter buy-in.

 

This is your very own target from your very own Supporters Charter which you drew up only a few months ago. There has been absolutely zero communication that I am aware of with Southampton fans with regards to Season Ticket pricing structures for the 2010/2011 season, so you have clearly not met that target.

 

Your pricing structure for the 2010/2011 season is not one which will ensure maximum supporter buy-in, it is a directly aggressive structure to make the buying of Season Tickets as restrictive as possible, to try and maximise the income by reducing the amount of ‘discount price’ customers the club has and increasing the number of pay on the day ‘premium paying’ customers.

 

1. Why have the club decided to wait until June 1st to release details of the Season Tickets and offer fans only a 30 day window to renew?

2. Why was there no prior warning that the season ticket instalment plan was not being renewed in the months prior to the announcement?

3. Why has the official line been the removal was down to administration costs, when clearly this was not the case?

 

As a business as well, I am sure that if you were looking for a maximum supporter buy-in then you would have at least sent a renewal pack out to the customer? Or as in previous seasons, conducted some advertising and marketing to make people aware of the season ticket renewals. This is another example as proof how I believe that you, as a football club, are trying to minimise the amount of discount fans the club has and make them restrictive as possible.

 

With regards to the ticket booking charges, added to the match day prices, they make ours the most expensive in the league, and I see them as another opportunity to get more revenue from the supporter.

 

You have stated that the replica shirt next season is having no sponsor as a ‘gesture’ to the fans for our 125th. Well the booking charges, 15% increase in season tickets, the fact that the replica shirt is only for one season and the extra revenue you will get from forcing people to pay on the day will more than cover the amount you lose. Now you will know better than me, but I estimate you will get well in excess of £1m in extra revenue from these new revenue streams, whereas you might command about a quarter of that in Sponsorship fees, one thing I am certain of is that the new charges/price increases will be more than any sponsorship income.

 

So do excuse me Mr Cortese if I do see it as a case of giving something with one hand and taking more with the other hand.

 

It is our 125th anniversary, if you want it to be a special year, then can I propose that you make the selling of tickets as easy as possible for Southampton fans so we can all be there for the celebrations? Although I do not speak on behalf of everyone, I would be happy to pay a premium/interest/standard renewal rate if it meant having the opportunity to pay in instalments. Zebra Finance have indicated to me that the instalment scheme can be set up in a matter of days, so there is still time to set it up this season, if, as in your supporters charter, you really do want maximum supporter buy-in. I understand the supporters charter relates to 09-10 season, but the targets set down in it relate to forthcoming season ticket prices etc, which relate to the 2010/2011 season.

 

Can I please request that the club show they take their targets and supporters charter seriously and show us, the fans of the club that they do indeed want maximum supporter buy-in and want as many fans inside the stadium as possible to celebrate our 125th anniversary. I have confirmation from Zebra that they would be happy to work with SFC and can implement a scheme at no cost to the club and in a timely fashion to allow the scheme to run for this season ( even if the prices are based on the ‘new’ season ticket rates and/or interest is charged) . It’s not about the cost, it’s about giving the fans options to ensure as many people as possible can renew/buy their season ticket next season.

 

If time is that much of an issue, I am even willing to speak to them on your behalf to obtain a full quote and costings of a scheme, which I can forward on to you.

 

So what are you waiting for?!

 

I would appreciate a response to this email detailing the clubs thoughts on the ticketing structure and the points I have addressed in this email.

 

**********************************************************************************************************

 

 

Like people have said, the ball is in the clubs court now.

 

fair enough. Personally don't think you should have gone for the "pricing structure" as a whole, as that is competitive and reasonable for season tickets, more emphasised points about charter, installments etc.

 

Will be interested in the response.

[Kaiser Soze]

Will be very suprised if NC writes back.

[The9]

I think we'll all be surprised if there's any response, but that doesn't mean they're not pertinent questions worth asking.

[StuRomseySaint]

Will be very suprised if NC writes back.

 

So will I to be honest.

 

I have already been told that there are no plans to release any further statements regarding the season tickets etc, however all emails/letters are answered individually by the club.

 

So at the very leased we will know if they have dodged the questions put to them. :-/

[benjii]

Stuey, are you going to factor in the millions paid by Markus towards transfers, development etc.. in your "hand" analogy too?

[stevegrant]

Stuey, are you going to factor in the millions paid by Markus towards transfers, development etc.. in your "hand" analogy too?

What millions are these?

[StuRomseySaint]

Stuey, are you going to factor in the millions paid by Markus towards transfers, development etc.. in your "hand" analogy too?

 

No, I am talking specifically about the 125th anniversary shirt which was given to us as a 'gesture' from the club as " we don't need the money " .

 

With regards to the £3m "investment" on players and training ground. I would imagine our running profits for this season mean that actually, contrary to what you might think... there has needed to be minimal extra investment ( loan ) from Liebherr, if at all any.

 

With regards to staff aquisitions... I think you would do well to remember that during administration, through redundancies etc, we were down to skeleton staff, and the recruitment of a new management team was always going to happen.

Edited 7 June, 2010 by StuRomseySaint

[BARCELONASAINT]

Stu a very reasonable letter with some solid points and as you feel so strongly about this i hope you do get an answer.

 

I suspect if you do get an answer you still won't be happy....but as i've said before you cannot please all the people all of the time!

 

I would suggest leaving the subject alone now, you have more than expressed your point and even if i do not share your point of view it did not take me more than 1 page of your arguement to understand where you are coming from on this.

[benjii]

What millions are these?

 

Training ground, signings, cost of business purchase, wages for behind-the-scenes people at the top of their game etc...

 

I don't know the figures and I am assuming money has been made available but it seems a bit selective to compare ticket revenues with sponsorship revenues and nothing else.

[benjii]

No, I am talking specifically about the 125th anniversary shirt which was given to us as a 'gesture' from the club as " we don't need the money " .

 

With regards to the £3m "investment" on players and training ground. I would imagine our running profits for this season mean that actually, contrary to what you might think... there has needed to be minimal extra investment ( loan ) from Liebherr, if at all any.

 

With regards to staff aquisitions... I think you would do well to remember that during administration, through redundancies etc, we were down to skeleton staff, and the recruitment of a new management team was always going to happen.

 

The point I was making was that I don't see the logic in pointing just at the ticket prices and the shirt sponsorship. They are no more connected than any other two revenue streams.

[StuRomseySaint]

Training ground, signings, cost of business purchase, wages for behind-the-scenes people at the top of their game etc...

 

I don't know the figures and I am assuming money has been made available but it seems a bit selective to compare ticket revenues with sponsorship revenues and nothing else.

 

I wasn't doing that.

 

I was responding to his quotes which said that the lack of a sponsor was a gift from the club to us, when clearly that is not true as they have increased other costs to the fan to more than cover this loss of income, infact the money made from the fans is probably around 4 times as much as what they have 'given' to the fans.

 

So all the other expenditure is irrelevent, that's not my point, BUT as I said, I believe the club is running very close to even at the moment, so apart from the initial purchase of the football club, there has been very little in the way of further investment ( yet ).

[stevegrant]

Training ground, signings, cost of business purchase, wages for behind-the-scenes people at the top of their game etc...

 

I don't know the figures and I am assuming money has been made available but it seems a bit selective to compare ticket revenues with sponsorship revenues and nothing else.

The cost of buying the club is the only guaranteed sum of money that has been invested to date, and that is obviously money he will expect a return on in the medium-to-long-term.

 

The training ground redevelopment hasn't started yet, and all other costs could conceivably be coming out of the revenue generated over the last year. League attendances were up nearly 20% and we've also had some big cup paydays as well.

[dune]

I doubt Stu will get a reply from the Cortese because if the fans charter counts for nothing then fans opinions count for nothing.

[benjii]

The cost of buying the club is the only guaranteed sum of money that has been invested to date, and that is obviously money he will expect a return on in the medium-to-long-term.

 

The training ground redevelopment hasn't started yet, and all other costs could conceivably be coming out of the revenue generated over the last year. League attendances were up nearly 20% and we've also had some big cup paydays as well.

 

Yeah, my point is we don't know so it seems a little pointless to pick our a few figures and have a rant. As shirt sponsorship is unlikely to effect ticket sales it really is pointless to off-set the one against the other. We could have had the current ticket prices + a shirt sponsor and no one would be mentioning the shirt sponsorship whatsoever because it's not connected.

 

I agree with your general points around the financing - we don't know for sure.

 

As for Stu's main point, which is that the club will make more money this way... isn't that the point? Nothing to be ashamed of. Our prices are still reasonable for what must be the most expensive squad in the division (unless one of the relegated teams has a more expensive one). If you can't afford an ST, then you can't afford one. It's not the end of the world. If the policy results in average attendances and revenue falling then it will obvioulsy have failed. Bet it doesn't.

[benjii]

I doubt Stu will get a reply from the Cortese because if the fans charter counts for nothing then fans opinions count for nothing.

 

Probably that and the fact that CEOs of companies have more important things to do than correspond directly to all incomings. I suspect the reply will, quite properly, be a delegated one.

[StuRomseySaint]

Yeah, my point is we don't know so it seems a little pointless to pick our a few figures and have a rant. As shirt sponsorship is unlikely to effect ticket sales it really is pointless to off-set the one against the other. We could have had the current ticket prices + a shirt sponsor and no one would be mentioning the shirt sponsorship whatsoever because it's not connected.

 

I agree with your general points around the financing - we don't know for sure.

 

As for Stu's main point, which is that the club will make more money this way... isn't that the point? Nothing to be ashamed of. Our prices are still reasonable for what must be the most expensive squad in the division (unless one of the relegated teams has a more expensive one). If you can't afford an ST, then you can't afford one. It's not the end of the world. If the policy results in average attendances and revenue falling then it will obvioulsy have failed. Bet it doesn't.

 

You are not listening, is it going to take another 9 pages of me repeating myself to get people to understand it, like it has the payment plan?

 

Nicola Cortese has stated that the lack of a headline sponsor is a gift to us, the fans as the club doesn't need the money, then almost in the same breath has put into place systems that will cost the fan in excess of £1m next season.

 

You are right, I wouldn't be comparing them if he didn't come out with the line about shirts... but he did. It's not actually the cost of the tickets that is the issue, it's the way they are going about trying to maximise their revenue which is wrong... by forcing people out of being able to pay game by game at a cost of up to £247 MORE than what a season ticket holder will pay.

 

If you are happy getting more and more money squeezed out of you then fair play, can you also not respect that lots of people dont want to get ripped off. And before you say anything, this thread is not a true reflection of the public feeling, all the stick I have taken on here, it's understanable alot of people won't stick their head above the parapit.

 

But I don't give a fook what you think. :-)

[swannymere]

I'm confused, do we like Rupert again:-?

[StuRomseySaint]

Probably that and the fact that CEOs of companies have more important things to do than correspond directly to all incomings. I suspect the reply will, quite properly, be a delegated one.

 

Lowe used to always reply personally, if for some reason he couldn't, the it would be the Chief Executive that did.

[Gemmel]

Lowe used to always reply personally, if for some reason he couldn't, the it would be the Chief Executive that did.

 

lowe was the chief exe and chairman....wasn't he???

[StuRomseySaint]

lowe was the chief exe and chairman....wasn't he???

 

No, Cowen was the Chief Exec/Managing Director etc

 

That's who I meant, anyway.

Edited 7 June, 2010 by StuRomseySaint

[up and away]

*** COPY OF EMAIL SENT TO NICOLA CORTESE ***

 

Dear Mr Cortese,

 

I am writing once again with regards to your pricing structure for the 2010/2011 season, which I believe to be directly aggressive in the hope of ensuring minimal take up on the season tickets, trying to maximise your income on a match by match basis, at the expense of us, the fans.

 

I have looked into the claims coming from the club, which state that the instalment plan has been removed due to the rise in administration costs. I believe this either not to be true, either that or all viable options have not been explored.

 

I spoke to Zebra Finance last week to find out the costs of implementing such a scheme. I was told by the representative at Zebra finance that every package is bespoke and there needs to be no costs incurred by the club. Zebra claim their administration fees by collecting interest on the payments, or an administration fee etc, which carries zero cost to the football club. Of course there are other options, such as interest-free options in which there may be some cost to the club, but from the discussions I had with Zebra Finance, they ensured me there needs to be no direct cost to the club.

 

When you look at the majority of instalment plans available within English football, the majority require the full payment to the club by the finance company usually before the season starts, or within the first month. The credit conditions for these instalments are very similar to obtaining standard credit, you can even apply separately to Zebra for such. They do other schemes with limited take up from the club because they are such poor value to the club. This basically involves giving a heavily reduced season ticket with no advantage of the money up front, but a set monthly fee. In this case the club has all the disadvantages with none of the gain.

Having looked at this, I could fairly predict Cortese's response "Of all those schemes we would consider, fans have the opportunity to do exactly the same from other credit sources, some far cheaper. Of the schemes that would catch fans outside of this envelope, the financial equation takes them out of consideration."

 

In your Fans Charter you have a very clear target for the 09-10 season: http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/staticFiles/5f/44/0,,10280~148575,00.pdf

 

09-10 Season Targets

 

• Via our Supporter engagement policy, we will seek feedback on ticket prices for forthcoming seasons in an attempt to ensure maximum supporter buy-in.

 

This is your very own target from your very own Supporters Charter which you drew up only a few months ago. There has been absolutely zero communication that I am aware of with Southampton fans with regards to Season Ticket pricing structures for the 2010/2011 season, so you have clearly not met that target.

This aspect from the club is poor. More likely after looking at all the figures he assumed anyone with a modicum of nous should be able to work this out for themselves.

 

Your pricing structure for the 2010/2011 season is not one which will ensure maximum supporter buy-in, it is a directly aggressive structure to make the buying of Season Tickets as restrictive as possible, to try and maximise the income by reducing the amount of ‘discount price’ customers the club has and increasing the number of pay on the day ‘premium paying’ customers.

 

Go to any club in this league and point out what they will be getting for that price of ticket and the vast majority would leap at the price, even though it would mean an increase. Bear in mind that our prices are not that bad for the facilities we are afforded. Take into account the amount of money the club are throwing in themselves and most fans of any club would jump at the chance of paying it.

 

 

1. Why have the club decided to wait until June 1st to release details of the Season Tickets and offer fans only a 30 day window to renew?

Is it such a great shock that they will be coming? Does the increase mean a drastic change in financing? And for those requiring an instalment plan, several clubs instalment plans require final payment by this date!

2. Why was there no prior warning that the season ticket instalment plan was not being renewed in the months prior to the announcement?

Again that is a fair point, but the actuality is already dealt with previously

 

3. Why has the official line been the removal was down to administration costs, when clearly this was not the case?

Now you are off talking out your arse again. Look at all the facts, not the ones you want to.

 

As a business as well, I am sure that if you were looking for a maximum supporter buy-in then you would have at least sent a renewal pack out to the customer? Or as in previous seasons, conducted some advertising and marketing to make people aware of the season ticket renewals. This is another example as proof how I believe that you, as a football club, are trying to minimise the amount of discount fans the club has and make them restrictive as possible.

 

With regards to the ticket booking charges, added to the match day prices, they make ours the most expensive in the league, and I see them as another opportunity to get more revenue from the supporter.

You just have to look at smaller clubs who charge far more to see this is an actual cost. Virtually every club does it, what you have problem with accepting is that clubs that do this with a blanket charge on every ticket, appear to be bearing the cost themselves? Totally land of the muppets! Any rational person can actually see the booking fee per transction to be actually fairer than a blanket charge on all tickets.

 

You have stated that the replica shirt next season is having no sponsor as a ‘gesture’ to the fans for our 125th. Well the booking charges, 15% increase in season tickets, the fact that the replica shirt is only for one season and the extra revenue you will get from forcing people to pay on the day will more than cover the amount you lose. Now you will know better than me, but I estimate you will get well in excess of £1m in extra revenue from these new revenue streams, whereas you might command about a quarter of that in Sponsorship fees, one thing I am certain of is that the new charges/price increases will be more than any sponsorship income.

 

So do excuse me Mr Cortese if I do see it as a case of giving something with one hand and taking more with the other hand.

 

It is our 125th anniversary, if you want it to be a special year, then can I propose that you make the selling of tickets as easy as possible for Southampton fans so we can all be there for the celebrations? Although I do not speak on behalf of everyone, I would be happy to pay a premium/interest/standard renewal rate if it meant having the opportunity to pay in instalments. Zebra Finance have indicated to me that the instalment scheme can be set up in a matter of days, so there is still time to set it up this season, if, as in your supporters charter, you really do want maximum supporter buy-in. I understand the supporters charter relates to 09-10 season, but the targets set down in it relate to forthcoming season ticket prices etc, which relate to the 2010/2011 season.

 

Can I please request that the club show they take their targets and supporters charter seriously and show us, the fans of the club that they do indeed want maximum supporter buy-in and want as many fans inside the stadium as possible to celebrate our 125th anniversary. I have confirmation from Zebra that they would be happy to work with SFC and can implement a scheme at no cost to the club and in a timely fashion to allow the scheme to run for this season ( even if the prices are based on the ‘new’ season ticket rates and/or interest is charged) . It’s not about the cost, it’s about giving the fans options to ensure as many people as possible can renew/buy their season ticket next season.

 

If time is that much of an issue, I am even willing to speak to them on your behalf to obtain a full quote and costings of a scheme, which I can forward on to you.

 

So what are you waiting for?!

 

I would appreciate a response to this email detailing the clubs thoughts on the ticketing structure and the points I have addressed in this email.

 

As with anything in life, you look at the price and determine whether it is acceptable to you. If it's not, don't buy it and anyone can perfectly understand that point. To try an insinuate the club is trying to rip us off is ludicrous. Even with all that the club will be providing next season in terms of facilities, players and investment, our ticketing structure is by no way exhorbitent in comparison to other clubs. Liebherr really has a strange way of ripping us all off by wasting all these millions in a football club that will hardly see a rational return.

 

**********************************************************************************************************

 

 

Like people have said, the ball is in the clubs court now.

 

If you are going to look into this, do it properly and not come up with some half arsed look at bits you feel apply, totally ignoring those that do not.

[John Smith]

You are not listening, is it going to take another 9 pages of me repeating myself to get people to understand it, like it has the payment plan?

 

Nicola Cortese has stated that the lack of a headline sponsor is a gift to us, the fans as the club doesn't need the money, then almost in the same breath has put into place systems that will cost the fan in excess of £1m next season.

 

You are right, I wouldn't be comparing them if he didn't come out with the line about shirts... but he did. It's not actually the cost of the tickets that is the issue, it's the way they are going about trying to maximise their revenue which is wrong... by forcing people out of being able to pay game by game at a cost of up to £247 MORE than what a season ticket holder will pay.

 

If you are happy getting more and more money squeezed out of you then fair play, can you also not respect that lots of people dont want to get ripped off. And before you say anything, this thread is not a true reflection of the public feeling, all the stick I have taken on here, it's understanable alot of people won't stick their head above the parapit.

 

But I don't give a fook what you think. :-)

 

I don;t really know where you're hoping to go with all this SRS? Seriously, you keep pointing out that ML is loaning the club money, that the club is costing the fans an extra million pound per season etc., but honestly, I'm not sure where you want this all to end up?

 

I'm not going to suggest that you want ML to pack his bags and leave us high and dry and plunge into admin again, but what is your point?

 

You see, ML wants to run this club at a profit at some point. Becasuse that point may not be today due to all the debts that have been serviced, the extra players, playing staff and training facilities, catering, ground improvements and so on, I doubt this club is a profit making club yet, will it ever be, I don;t know. But, I think Ml wants NC to get it that way, I think with the intention to get us into the premiership and make us an attractive club to purchase, I'm guessing that's when ML will make some proper money.

 

Anyway, whilst we're achieving that goal, Ml has ploughed money into this club, NC has been given the task to ensure that we're not throwing money away. The 'gift' to the club of which you speak, confuses me. I know what NC said, but I don;t come to the same conclusion as you, and, I wouldn;t link it to the booking fee either as they are seperate issues/departments/cost centres and therefore are driven by different goals.

 

So, what I don;t get is your stance, like I said, i don;t think you want ML out, but I don;t see where you want this list to end. There have been changes to the clubs standards, proceedures and methods. Shifting costs and expenses from one dept to another in order to make them all work efficiently and consistantly. Not saying previous directors had it wrong, but, with adopting new methods, you are forced to change process, I believe this is why we see things like the shirt being a 'gift', as it is not being sposored and the club have to foot the bill and totally unrelated booking fee's (rightly or wrongly priced), being applied to a task that is labour intensive.

 

Lastly, this loan stuff you keep going on about in other threads, am I right in assuming that it has no bearing whatsoever to your position, and all your trying to get people to believe is that it's probable, if not just possible that there is a ML loan to the club? Because, at present, I do feel that you're trying to 'tell' people that there is a loan from ML, when, you don;t actually know and you;re just assuming, based on your own inclination that there will be? Because, I think this is where you;re going wrong, 'telling' people what to think, when you don;t know 100% yourself.

 

And so, please take this in the way it's intended, not trying to flame you, just seen many posts from you on similar subjects, all pointing toward a cost to the club/supporters direction, and I don't know what your point is?

[StuRomseySaint]

When you look at the majority of instalment plans available within English football, the majority require the full payment to the club by the finance company usually before the season starts, or within the first month. The credit conditions for these instalments are very similar to obtaining standard credit, you can even apply separately to Zebra for such. They do other schemes with limited take up from the club because they are such poor value to the club. This basically involves giving a heavily reduced season ticket with no advantage of the money up front, but a set monthly fee. In this case the club has all the disadvantages with none of the gain.

 

Having looked at this, I could fairly predict Cortese's response "Of all those schemes we would consider, fans have the opportunity to do exactly the same from other credit sources, some far cheaper. Of the schemes that would catch fans outside of this envelope, the financial equation takes them out of consideration."

 

Rather than bother with the rest of the stuff you wrote, which also lacked any source or anything to back it up, allow me to pick up on this.

 

Now I have spoken to Premium Credit Ltd and Zebra Finance and have generic quotes from Zebra which are in complete contradiction to what you state.

 

Would you like to tell me who you spoke to at Zebra Finance and I will check that the information I have is correct?

 

Or are you another one of these people that will guess at something without making the effort to reply?

 

I await your reply.

[up and away]

Rather than bother with the rest of the stuff you wrote, which also lacked any source or anything to back it up, allow me to pick up on this.

 

Now I have spoken to Premium Credit Ltd and Zebra Finance and have generic quotes from Zebra which are in complete contradiction to what you state.

 

Would you like to tell me who you spoke to at Zebra Finance and I will check that the information I have is correct?

 

Or are you another one of these people that will guess at something without making the effort to reply?

 

I await your reply.

 

I looked at the 30 odd English clubs on Zebra's site, then had to go to the actual clubs or fans forum to find anything out.

[The9]

Stu a very reasonable letter with some solid points and as you feel so strongly about this i hope you do get an answer.

 

I suspect if you do get an answer you still won't be happy....but as i've said before you cannot please all the people all of the time!

 

I would suggest leaving the subject alone now, you have more than expressed your point and even if i do not share your point of view it did not take me more than 1 page of your arguement to understand where you are coming from on this.

 

Yeah, but the point is there are still people on the ninth page of this thread asking the same questions and raising points he answered in the opening post. It's not Stu's fault people don't bother to read the thread before asking the same questions...

[StuRomseySaint]

I don;t really know where you're hoping to go with all this SRS? Seriously, you keep pointing out that ML is loaning the club money, that the club is costing the fans an extra million pound per season etc., but honestly, I'm not sure where you want this all to end up?

 

I'm not going to suggest that you want ML to pack his bags and leave us high and dry and plunge into admin again, but what is your point?

 

You see, ML wants to run this club at a profit at some point. Becasuse that point may not be today due to all the debts that have been serviced, the extra players, playing staff and training facilities, catering, ground improvements and so on, I doubt this club is a profit making club yet, will it ever be, I don;t know. But, I think Ml wants NC to get it that way, I think with the intention to get us into the premiership and make us an attractive club to purchase, I'm guessing that's when ML will make some proper money.

 

Anyway, whilst we're achieving that goal, Ml has ploughed money into this club, NC has been given the task to ensure that we're not throwing money away. The 'gift' to the club of which you speak, confuses me. I know what NC said, but I don;t come to the same conclusion as you, and, I wouldn;t link it to the booking fee either as they are seperate issues/departments/cost centres and therefore are driven by different goals.

 

So, what I don;t get is your stance, like I said, i don;t think you want ML out, but I don;t see where you want this list to end. There have been changes to the clubs standards, proceedures and methods. Shifting costs and expenses from one dept to another in order to make them all work efficiently and consistantly. Not saying previous directors had it wrong, but, with adopting new methods, you are forced to change process, I believe this is why we see things like the shirt being a 'gift', as it is not being sposored and the club have to foot the bill and totally unrelated booking fee's (rightly or wrongly priced), being applied to a task that is labour intensive.

 

Lastly, this loan stuff you keep going on about in other threads, am I right in assuming that it has no bearing whatsoever to your position, and all your trying to get people to believe is that it's probable, if not just possible that there is a ML loan to the club? Because, at present, I do feel that you're trying to 'tell' people that there is a loan from ML, when, you don;t actually know and you;re just assuming, based on your own inclination that there will be? Because, I think this is where you;re going wrong, 'telling' people what to think, when you don;t know 100% yourself.

 

And so, please take this in the way it's intended, not trying to flame you, just seen many posts from you on similar subjects, all pointing toward a cost to the club/supporters direction, and I don't know what your point is?

 

No I don't want Liebherr to leave, of course not! I want his delegated custodian whilst obviously making a mint for his boss, to also treat the customers/fans with a certain amount of respect.

 

I think the accounts might make good reading when they come out, as I reckon that we are running very near to profit already.

 

The gift definately confuses me, it's the rationalle behind it... it's like going to the checkout at Asda with some peas and some carrots, the cashier says you can have the peas half price, as long as you pay double for the carrots.

 

The loan stuff is irrelevent, it's just how I understand ( from paying quite alot of interest and research ) than bankrolled football clubs work. I don't think we are being bankrolled at the moment, I think we are living within our means, even with the training ground etc.

 

I just state it because I think people expect us to have a Chelsea style owner who is throwing money at us left right and centre... this is a business from the instance and it is clear to me that Liebherr is reluctant to fund us to live outside our natural means ( which is no bad thing ).

 

We might have a billionaire owner, but you are only as wealthy as the amount he puts in the pot for the football club.

[solentstars]

He "keeps going on and on" as he's put in the effort of doing the research to back up and clearly illustrate his points/issues (with facts), only to see his topic littered with uninformed and/or unhelpful comments and misinformation from those who've either not read (or comprehended) his original post, lack the basic intellect required to understand what he repeatedly keeps taking the time to try to explain (in perfectly easily understandable language); or are likely just trying to wind him up by playing the ignorance card.

 

(That is not intended toward those who do get his points and just have a different opinion, to which they are entitled, but those who, for whatever reason, seem to be either unintentionally unable to grasp the basic concepts Stu is highlighting, or intentionally ignoring them.)

 

I don't have an emotional investment in either side of the debate. I can't afford a Season Ticket anyway, and will just go to the games I can afford as often as possible; so I'm not affected by the lack of a payment plan option.

 

But, for the record, whilst the Club of course has no 'obligation' to provide such a service to its 'customers'; I think the way it has been handled is very poor.

 

To withdraw a facility that has been operational for such a long established period of time, at such short notice, at the very least, represents callous customer relations.

 

The way the Club have have gone about removing a method of payment relied upon by many supporters, reminded me of the immortal words of one customer I once had the misfortune to have to inform his account was being terminated (at short notice), who, before slamming down the phone, stated:

 

"Your standards of customer service are F*CKING APPALLING!!!"

 

I agreed with him.

 

And I agree with Stu now.

 

 

 

(Just for the record, I don't intend to pass further comment on the topic, so please do not expect a reply should decide to quote me. I have no desire to involve myself with 'arguments' or debates; I'm simply stating my opinion and moving on, as is my way.)

 

i agree and even though i can afford to get season ticket,i think of how some of our fellow fans have been let down with this appalling customer service.i give my support to them and will not be purchaseing the new shirt or spend any money in the club shop in the future.

[StuRomseySaint]

I looked at the 30 odd English clubs on Zebra's site, then had to go to the actual clubs or fans forum to find anything out.

 

Well I would suggest you phone up and get a quote ' as a sports club director ' to work out how the costings are passed on to the club. You are just guessing as to what costs are for the club.

 

Some of the club loans are as simple as the respective clubs endorsing them in return for income ( affiliate commision for referrals ) , others are more interlinked agreements ( such as the P*rtsmouth one ) , where there is no financial risk to the club, the customer nor Zebra Finance as it is simply premium collection and management, not a loan.

 

As I said, you are not going to get any information from the clubs sites with regards to the cost or risk to the club, so you are not in a position to rubbish my findings.

[John Smith]

No I don't want Liebherr to leave, of course not! I want his delegated custodian whilst obviously making a mint for his boss, to also treat the customers/fans with a certain amount of respect.

 

I think the accounts might make good reading when they come out, as I reckon that we are running very near to profit already.

 

The gift definately confuses me, it's the rationalle behind it... it's like going to the checkout at Asda with some peas and some carrots, the cashier says you can have the peas half price, as long as you pay double for the carrots.

 

The loan stuff is irrelevent, it's just how I understand ( from paying quite alot of interest and research ) than bankrolled football clubs work. I don't think we are being bankrolled at the moment, I think we are living within our means, even with the training ground etc.

 

I just state it because I think people expect us to have a Chelsea style owner who is throwing money at us left right and centre... this is a business from the instance and it is clear to me that Liebherr is reluctant to fund us to live outside our natural means ( which is no bad thing ).

 

We might have a billionaire owner, but you are only as wealthy as the amount he puts in the pot for the football club.

 

Thanks for clarifying SRS, like I said, not flaming, was just confused by the direction of your stance.

 

FWIW, I think ML treats the fans with respect and I think we're lucky this is his first club and he wants to please us, as well as make money. As for NC, I'm not sure it's within his nature to respect the 'fans', I don;t think that;s what he's there for. Some people have to make tough decisions, and some of those decisions will make him unpopular, this is NC's job, and, whatever you think of him, stop for a second and think, this guy has taken it all on his shoulders. Not only has he relocated to this lovely country and had to settle, but he faces the wrath of a very grumpy group of people when you unsettle football supporters, regardless of which club you support. And, he has taken it all on his shoulders. Not once have I heard him blame others, but they have all been his decisions and he is in the firing line. To me, that makes him exactly the type of person I'd want running my club if I was ML.

 

So, NC makes some decisions, and some fans don;t like what they hear. I believe you are entitled to write to NC, as you did, and share your thoughts. Again, I think you were telling rather than suggesting, but, I'm sure, if enough supporters felt this way and communicated it to NC, he would consider his position. Don't know if he'd change things, but I don;t get the feeling he wouldn't, just because he's won't but because he believes this is the best way.

 

So, like I said before, not sure where you want this all to end up? For example, NC employs the services of a financial company to help ST sales in installments, and passes those interest charges (as borrowing money always costs someone something) onto us, thus not costing the club anything, but on 400 pound, about 10 quid per ST. Then, reducing the £3 booking fee to £1.50 per ticket, as this is the norm is an entertainment business. And then adopting a sposor, redoing all the shirts with the sponsor name on, which would be a cost to the club. Or, redesigning this years kit to not be a 125th anniversary kit, and instead developing the one we will wear for 2 seasons instead. Recalling all the new shirts and printing the new ones before the start of the campaign. For me, this appears to be a tall order. And again, not suggesting this is what you're calling for, but, where do you want it to go? Other than rewinding time and getting NC to restate his statement with one or two words changed? Doesn;t seem feasible.

 

And so, I don't get it. You want me to pay more for my ST, you want people to pay more for their matchday tickets over a season and you want the club to waste a lot of money, finding and rebranding a sposor onto the shirts and recalling the old ones?

 

Like I said, not flaming you, but this is the impression you;re giving to some of us. You're 'telling' NC he should or could do things differently, but, the suggestions you make aren't really that significant, and to me, sounds like will cost me and the club more.

 

Please SRS, think about your position, becausse with all these different pies you;ve got you;re fingers into (all well intentioned I'm sure),, you have confused some of us, and we just don;t know what your point is.

 

Sorry...

[NickG]

do you remember when we had to make payments last season?

[StuRomseySaint]

So, like I said before, not sure where you want this all to end up? For example, NC employs the services of a financial company to help ST sales in installments, and passes those interest charges (as borrowing money always costs someone something) onto us, thus not costing the club anything, but on 400 pound, about 10 quid per ST. Then, reducing the £3 booking fee to £1.50 per ticket, as this is the norm is an entertainment business. And then adopting a sposor, redoing all the shirts with the sponsor name on, which would be a cost to the club. Or, redesigning this years kit to not be a 125th anniversary kit, and instead developing the one we will wear for 2 seasons instead. Recalling all the new shirts and printing the new ones before the start of the campaign. For me, this appears to be a tall order. And again, not suggesting this is what you're calling for, but, where do you want it to go? Other than rewinding time and getting NC to restate his statement with one or two words changed? Doesn;t seem feasible.

 

And so, I don't get it. You want me to pay more for my ST, you want people to pay more for their matchday tickets over a season and you want the club to waste a lot of money, finding and rebranding a sposor onto the shirts and recalling the old ones?

 

Like I said, not flaming you, but this is the impression you;re giving to some of us. You're 'telling' NC he should or could do things differently, but, the suggestions you make aren't really that significant, and to me, sounds like will cost me and the club more.

 

Please SRS, think about your position, becausse with all these different pies you;ve got you;re fingers into (all well intentioned I'm sure),, you have confused some of us, and we just don;t know what your point is.

 

Sorry...

 

It seems a bit all over the place on this thread, because I am speaking to a million different people who are asking a million different questions, alot of them not relevent.

 

Quite simply what I am telling Mr Cortese is that I believe he has withdrawn the season ticket installment plan as an aggressive move to ensure fans are forced into paying the matchday prices, which he has also inflicted with price rises.

 

I also took the time to remind this that his 'no sponsorship' gesture does not cut it with me as a gesture, the real gesture would be and economic and fan-friendly season ticket package.

 

Lastly, I am taking my own personal stance because I am not happy with the business model that he is building, which will hit us all in the pocket, when all's said and done, we are still in League 1. And us as fans, are being treated with absolutely no respect whatsoever...

[StuRomseySaint]

do you remember when we had to make payments last season?

 

Can you be a little bit more detailed in your questioning Nick?

 

If you are on about how long we had to buy the season tickets last season... they were cheaper, we had just come out of administration and there was an interest free installment plan for those that couldnt raise the money within the timeframe.

 

So if that's your point... don't bother.

[S41NTS]

Stu - have you talked to Zebra about setting this up for the fans regardless of the clubs view on installment plans?

 

Surely if its that easy something can be done independantly of the club to cater for the fans looking to purchase using installments.

[saint_mears]

Stuey, are you going to factor in the millions paid by Markus towards transfers, development etc.. in your "hand" analogy too?

 

 

Totally irrelevant

[StuRomseySaint]

Stu - have you talked to Zebra about setting this up for the fans regardless of the clubs view on installment plans?

 

Surely if its that easy something can be done independantly of the club to cater for the fans looking to purchase using installments.

 

No, it relies on the clubs endorsement because it is premium management as opposed to a loan.

 

With premium management...

 

- The club need to agree to recieve the revenue in a set amount of monthly payments from Zebra ( generally 3, 6 or 8 ) , instead of paying the full payment upfront.

 

- There is no credit risk with premium management, to set one up independently would mean probably unfavourable interest rates and fees, and credit searching, effectively it would be just like getting a normal loan, meaning that there is better deals elsewhere on the market.

 

And before anyone pipes up again, not everyone can get credit nor is it viable, hence this option is the most viable for all.

[NickG]

Can you be a little bit more detailed in your questioning Nick?

 

If you are on about how long we had to buy the season tickets last season... they were cheaper, we had just come out of administration and there was an interest free installment plan for those that couldnt raise the money within the timeframe.

 

So if that's your point... don't bother.

 

I will make it nice and simple.

 

I did the installment plan last year.

 

I cannot remember when I had to make payments.

 

I seem to remember there were 3 payments, over 3 months - maybe July, Aug, Sept?

 

Does anyone remember if this was right, if not what was it?

[The Kraken]

A perfectly reasonable letter. I doubt you'll get the answers you're looking for though.

 

I sent the club an email asking why, if the club were going to remove the instalment plan (as is their right), why did not give any notice of this until hours before season tickets went on sale. The response I got was...

 

"Dear Dav,

 

Thank you for your response.

 

We are naturally sorry if you feel that we haven’t given enough notice. I do understand the point you are making

 

Again, thank you for taking the time to contact us

 

Kind regards

 

David Luker

 

The classic response that acknowledges the problem but offers no explanation.

[Turkish]

**** me this is getting boring.

[NickG]

**** me this is getting boring.

 

true. time to move on.

[StuRomseySaint]

This message is hidden because NickG is on your ignore list.

[NorthamSteve]

Why did you hide NickG between the first post you answered and that? He was asking a simple question.....

 

I'll ask it too;

 

On which dates did the installments go in last year?

[StuRomseySaint]

Why did you hide NickG between the first post you answered and that? He was asking a simple question.....

 

I'll ask it too;

 

On which dates did the installments go in last year?

 

6 month interest free if I remember rightly, so would have been July then 5 installments after.

 

Is it really relevent to anything though? Really?

[NorthamSteve]

6 month interest free if I remember rightly, so would have been July then 5 installments after.

 

Is it really relevent to anything though? Really?

 

dunno mate.