Installment plans cost the club NOTHING

[StuRomseySaint]

The only alternative I can think of to your suggestion is poor management, perhaps due to lack of experience NC was unaware of the payment plan for season tickets until he considered it too late to do anything about it.

 

The lack of any detailed response from the club on this matter does however add weight to your argument. Its possible that they are hoping we will be so annoyed about the situation that we boycott season ticket purchases knowing that a good start to the season will bring fans in anyway.

 

The deeper this goes without any clear explanation from the club the more I am inclined to agree with your "conspiracy theory".

 

No, sorry, don't subscribe to that.

 

David Luker would have made him aware of all the options. Even now, it's not too late to do anything about it, Zebra Finance have stated the can implement one in a matter of days... I have made the club aware of this.

 

You are exactly right about them wanting people in paying on the day rather than discount season ticket holders.

 

Costs to the fan will go up across the board... if you don't make a stand at the start then you are showing the club that you think it's acceptable.

 

Payment plan or not, why on earth would the core fans want to pay more money? The fan friendly way to make more money is to get more people in the stadium, not rip off the loyal ones who have stuck with the club through thick and thin... that is just wrong.

 

Oh and on a last point, I don't believe all the 'tough luck' or 'Cortese hasn't done anything wrong' posts on here are a true reflection of how people feel, even the people that posted them... more people seeing it as an opportunity to have a pop at one of the more controversial posters on here.

 

If someone else posted this thread, the reaction would be different.

[The9]

The only alternative I can think of to your suggestion is poor management, perhaps due to lack of experience NC was unaware of the payment plan for season tickets until he considered it too late to do anything about it.

 

The lack of any detailed response from the club on this matter does however add weight to your argument. Its possible that they are hoping we will be so annoyed about the situation that we boycott season ticket purchases knowing that a good start to the season will bring fans in anyway.

 

The deeper this goes without any clear explanation from the club the more I am inclined to agree with your "conspiracy theory".

 

I agree with pretty much all of this, other than the use of boycott. There's no expectation of a boycott, as if the goal is to drop ST numbers, enough people have been marginalised by the lack of instalment plan as it is. Fortunately for me (and the missus) I ended up getting a loan extended to cover the cashflow shortfall, but not everyone is able to do that and nor should they have to consider reworking their finances in order to pay up front for tickets - plenty would be able to save if given the time to.

 

There's a bigger argument about the rights of fans to be ST holders at all, to get reduced prices and how they are paid for, but at the moment the consensus in English football seems to be that you pay up front or via an instalment plan or credit agreement offered by the club, and if you don't want to use their terms you can do it yourself - but we for some reason don't want to offer all those options, or offer the flexibility to maximise revenue up front.

[beancounter saint]

FFS 10 pages on and we still have complete mongs that don't read all the posts.

 

I have explained on a stupid amount of occasions on this thread how it costs NO money to the club. YOU ARE WRONG

 

FFS what is it with some Saints fans, that even when someone has take the time to get the figures and all the terms and conditions, the FACTS, they STILL think they know better?!

 

1) It is NOT a credit facility.

2) The club recieves the FULL season ticket premium.

3) The fees are taken in Interest/Admin fees picked up by the customer.

4) There is ZERO administration by SFC... thats Premium/Zebras job and what they get their fees for.

5) Defaulters will be minimal and Zebra/Premium initially chase them up.

6) There is no extra cost to the MINIMAL amount of defaulters.

 

Whatever you say, you are obviously the expert. I love the way you gloss over the issue of defaulters in point 5 and point 6 doesn't to make any sense to me. However, as I say, you are obviously the expert and I am merely a mong.

[The9]

David Luker would have made him aware of all the options. Even now, it's not too late to do anything about it, Zebra Finance have stated the can implement one in a matter of days... I have made the club aware of this.

 

Oh and on a last point, I don't believe all the 'tough luck' or 'Cortese hasn't done anything wrong' posts on here are a true reflection of how people feel, even the people that posted them... more people seeing it as an opportunity to have a pop at one of the more controversial posters on here.

 

If someone else posted this thread, the reaction would be different.

 

The rumours I keep hearing are that Luker was taken out of the ST loop altogether, and the results seem to suggest that.

 

Not entirely sure the same sort of flak wouldn't be aimed at anyone else in the same situation though Stu - they'd just have to look harder for something irrelevant to have to pop at.

[StuRomseySaint]

Whatever you say, you are obviously the expert. I love the way you gloss over the issue of defaulters in point 5 and point 6 doesn't to make any sense to me. However, as I say, you are obviously the expert and I am merely a mong.

 

If you want to put up an argument, can I suggest you go and speak to Zebra and Premium Credit and get a quote.

 

On this subject I am the expert and you are the mong, I have the facts in front of me and you are simply guessing.

 

And I am not 'glossing over' the defaulter subject. The finance company chases up the defaulters and reinstates the DD's etc etc... only when they fail to get the premiums for a second month do they hand it back to the club.

 

I asked both about defaulters and both stated " The number of defaulters is minimal " , so excuse me if I believe them over you, you have absolutely no evidence to back up your claims.

 

A season ticket is a positive debit, if that makes sense... people don't want to default because they want the season ticket and all the benefits that go with it.

[John B]

An interesting Article on the Subject

 

http://www.clubfanzine.com/southampton/v2.showNews.php?id=28031

[The9]

An interesting Article on the Subject

 

http://www.clubfanzine.com/southampton/v2.showNews.php?id=28031

 

It does mention the Saints Trust though, Stuey dilemma?

[StuRomseySaint]

It does mention the Saints Trust though, Stuey dilemma?

 

Saints Trust or not... it is actually a well balanced article, which is a little bit more reserved that my direct accusations of the club ( which I stand by ).

[John B]

It does mention the Saints Trust though,

 

Yes I saw that too - not doing a good job then?

[beancounter saint]

If you want to put up an argument, can I suggest you go and speak to Zebra and Premium Credit and get a quote.

 

On this subject I am the expert and you are the mong, I have the facts in front of me and you are simply guessing.

 

And I am not 'glossing over' the defaulter subject. The finance company chases up the defaulters and reinstates the DD's etc etc... only when they fail to get the premiums for a second month do they hand it back to the club.

 

I asked both about defaulters and both stated " The number of defaulters is minimal " , so excuse me if I believe them over you, you have absolutely no evidence to back up your claims.

 

A season ticket is a positive debit, if that makes sense... people don't want to default because they want the season ticket and all the benefits that go with it.

 

Fair enough, you have obviously done a bit of research and argue well. I'm certainly not claiming to be an expert on this type of arrangement but I do have enough general knowledge and experience in finance to be confident that the information you have been given does not spell out the whole story in terms of costs/risks to the club.

 

What I would be genuinely interested in is if anyone has any first hand experience of avtually running this type of arrangement in practice and can confirm or deny this.

[StuRomseySaint]

Fair enough, you have obviously done a bit of research and argue well. I'm certainly not claiming to be an expert on this type of arrangement but I do have enough general knowledge and experience in finance to be confident that the information you have been given does not spell out the whole story in terms of costs/risks to the club.

 

What I would be genuinely interested in is if anyone has any first hand experience of avtually running this type of arrangement in practice and can confirm or deny this.

 

As I keep saying though... it's not finance in the way you imagine it or have experience in I imagine.

 

It's premium collection & administration.

 

There is a massive difference.

[Frank's cousin]

Why is it that whenever a club acts in a way to potentially improve its revenue... fans go ape? I am sure Stu is right in that the club have thought about it and have gambled that the success we will potentially have will drive on the day attendance and thus gate receipts.

 

NOw we are in an envieble position to most other clubs. The reasons for early ST sales and installment plans offered by ofer clubs is COMMERCIAL and not SERVICE, because most clubs NEED this revenue early to cover the summer operational costs, and in many cases installments on loans leveraged against ST sales.

 

We are not in that position, so the club - that has always reiterated that it needs to be self financing - can make a commercial decsion based on expected performance and maximise the revenues. The irony is that thos ewho complain above are usually the first to bemoan the lack of signings, or investment, yet in order to provide the maximum budget for football, the club needs to maximise its revenues from the gate and other commercial sources - the decision is simple - get a gate of 20,000 where the average paid per ticket is £15 or one where the average is £20.

 

If that additional 30% translates as 30% extra in the transfer kitty, then what is everyone worried about? Or do you expect Markus to fund it all out of his pocket?

 

Sure for some the lack of options may mean its tricky to get to as many games, but that is the case with anything that costs money, we all have to make sacrafices and juggle finances to be able to afford the things we want, but if we want the club to be successful, we have to acknowledge that it needs to exploit all possible commercial avenues - some will work, some will backfire, but that is the nature of business.

 

If we get off to a good start, we will see a good gate and a wider group of fans comming to games - yes for some it may mean they get to fewer if they have not been able to take advantage of an ST, but that IS life, whatever we think about how 'fair' or unfair' it is.

[Gorgiesaint]

Stu, totally in agreement about the (lack of) communication but consider this scenario.

 

We're in the pub & I borrow a tenner from you to get a round in on the understanding that its paid back before the end of the month.

 

Now it comes to the end of the month & give you £2 - and tell you you'll get £2 at the end of July, Aug, Sept & October - don't worry, you'll still get your £10 back.

 

Would you be happy with that? Somehow I doubt it - but that is the situation NC is in with payment collection plan.

 

Listen you've done some good work but you need to be open to some of the other issues that Beancounter raised beacuse you've not looked at all of the downsides to the club.

[The Kraken]

Why is it that whenever a club acts in a way to potentially improve its revenue... fans go ape?

 

Frank, have a read back again. It's not the decision to cut the payment scheme that is the bone of contention here, it's the fact that the club has performed a complete u-turn from a number of fundamental issues in their recently published Fans' Charter. A charter that was intended to promote transparency and dialogue with the customer has effectively been bypassed in less than 12 months.

 

Your points about revenue maximisation etc are all valid, but that's not addressing the real point of how the club have misleadingly published a set of operating directives and then at the very first instance chosen (without discussion with or notice to the customer) to completely reverse some of their ticketing policies.

[StuRomseySaint]

Stu, totally in agreement about the (lack of) communication but consider this scenario.

 

We're in the pub & I borrow a tenner from you to get a round in on the understanding that its paid back before the end of the month.

 

Now it comes to the end of the month & give you £2 - and tell you you'll get £2 at the end of July, Aug, Sept & October - don't worry, you'll still get your £10 back.

 

Would you be happy with that? Somehow I doubt it - but that is the situation NC is in with payment collection plan.

 

Listen you've done some good work but you need to be open to some of the other issues that Beancounter raised beacuse you've not looked at all of the downsides to the club.

 

LMAO

 

Are you seriously comparing borrowing a tenner from someone in a pub to a multi-million pound turnover business offering a service to enable it to gain maximum revenue in the long term?

 

I appreciate there might be some 'inconveniences' to the club by having one... but they are insignificant when compared to the positives.

 

As I said, I don't have the stats, but I very much doubt many casual fans go to more than 10 games a season and can't see Cortese getting more revenue this way.

[John B]

Why is it that whenever a club acts in a way to potentially improve its revenue... fans go ape? I am sure Stu is right in that the club have thought about it and have gambled that the success we will potentially have will drive on the day attendance and thus gate receipts.

 

NOw we are in an envieble position to most other clubs. The reasons for early ST sales and installment plans offered by ofer clubs is COMMERCIAL and not SERVICE, because most clubs NEED this revenue early to cover the summer operational costs, and in many cases installments on loans leveraged against ST sales.

 

We are not in that position, so the club - that has always reiterated that it needs to be self financing - can make a commercial decsion based on expected performance and maximise the revenues. The irony is that thos ewho complain above are usually the first to bemoan the lack of signings, or investment, yet in order to provide the maximum budget for football, the club needs to maximise its revenues from the gate and other commercial sources - the decision is simple - get a gate of 20,000 where the average paid per ticket is £15 or one where the average is £20.

 

If that additional 30% translates as 30% extra in the transfer kitty, then what is everyone worried about? Or do you expect Markus to fund it all out of his pocket?

 

Sure for some the lack of options may mean its tricky to get to as many games, but that is the case with anything that costs money, we all have to make sacrafices and juggle finances to be able to afford the things we want, but if we want the club to be successful, we have to acknowledge that it needs to exploit all possible commercial avenues - some will work, some will backfire, but that is the nature of business.

 

If we get off to a good start, we will see a good gate and a wider group of fans comming to games - yes for some it may mean they get to fewer if they have not been able to take advantage of an ST, but that IS life, whatever we think about how 'fair' or unfair' it is.

 

I think the main point of this argument is the Saints Charter which says

 

This supporters Charter will be the embodiment of what we stand for and it will target what we deliver year in year out

 

Which clearly the club has gone back on it seems profit is more important than fans.

 

Which maybe OK to some but not for others

[StuRomseySaint]

I think the main point of this argument is the Saints Charter which says

 

This supporters Charter will be the embodiment of what we stand for and it will target what we deliver year in year out

 

Which clearly the club has gone back on it seems profit is more important than fans.

 

Which maybe OK to some but not for others

 

Exactly.

 

We are being commercialised in League 1 FFS at the expense ( in more ways that one ) of the fans.

 

Fair enough if we are in the Premier League, but not League 1.

 

And to those who keep on about the signings etc, I strongly believe that even after investments and transfers last season, we are very close to breaking even.

 

Most newly taken over companies will have a 5 year plan which involves the first 2 years at a loss, I get the impression that Cortese is trying to turn a profit from day one, which makes this whole " look how much money they have invested " complete pie in the sky.

Edited 9 June, 2010 by StuRomseySaint

[John B]

Exactly.

 

We are being commercialised in league 1 FFS

 

Fair enough if we are in the Premier League, but not League 1.

 

And to those who keep on about the signings etc, I strongly believe that even after investments and transfers last season, we are very close to breaking even.

 

Most newly taken over companies will have a 5 year plan which involves the first 2 years at a loss, I get the impression that Cortese is trying to turn a profit from day one, which makes this whole " look how much money they have invested " complete pie in the sky.

 

And dont forget that they will make a large profit when they eventually sell

[StuRomseySaint]

And dont forget that they will make a large profit when they eventually sell

 

And an even larger one when/if we reach the Premier League.

 

They could sell the club today and achieve a significant profit on their investment.

[Gorgiesaint]

An interesting Article on the Subject

 

http://www.clubfanzine.com/southampton/v2.showNews.php?id=28031

 

Very good article overall

[Gorgiesaint]

LMAO

 

Are you seriously comparing borrowing a tenner from someone in a pub to a multi-million pound turnover business offering a service to enable it to gain maximum revenue in the long term?

 

I appreciate there might be some 'inconveniences' to the club by having one... but they are insignificant when compared to the positives.

 

As I said, I don't have the stats, but I very much doubt many casual fans go to more than 10 games a season and can't see Cortese getting more revenue this way.

 

All I'm trying to do is to get you to try & think from NC's perspective - you've rebuffed Beancounter this morning when he queried a couple of points, and IMO you are only looking at the issue from the supporters point of view. Getting perspective from the otherside may help understand the issue. That said NC hasn't been that forthcoming with much of explanation. When you are put in NC's position, the decision is not as cut & dried as you make out - you wouldn't take £2 per month - who would!!

 

Woud reiterate, I totally support the complaints against the lack of communication - the Ugly Inside article is spot on and that needs to be the focus, not the payment plan.

[John Smith]

Frank, have a read back again. It's not the decision to cut the payment scheme that is the bone of contention here, it's the fact that the club has performed a complete u-turn from a number of fundamental issues in their recently published Fans' Charter. A charter that was intended to promote transparency and dialogue with the customer has effectively been bypassed in less than 12 months.

 

Your points about revenue maximisation etc are all valid, but that's not addressing the real point of how the club have misleadingly published a set of operating directives and then at the very first instance chosen (without discussion with or notice to the customer) to completely reverse some of their ticketing policies.

 

Good points, well raised Dav. I asked StuRS previously about the fall out of all of these 'issues' he keeps raising, but I couldn;t get passed his angst with other posters and his defensive nature. I'm not bashing him, just, I felt he had a point, but I couldn;t quite see it.

 

It is an interesting spin on things. Other posters on here have likened NC to Rupert and also piled on all sort of assumptions, accused him of lying etc. But, I think there is a point here. I don;t think some (not SRS), on here just want to bash NC for bizarre reasons and I find that all quite disturbing. But, Stu's doggedness on his points made me listen, and I could see what he was getting at, but not why. This charter explanation is very good, undoubtedly SRS has raised it on many occasions, but I didn;t see it as his main thrust, but as another stick to beat the drum with.

 

So, I am interested to hear from the club on this. How serious a matter is it? Fairly serious, it could imply deceit, it could imply a polarization of the fanbase, it could be flippancy or it could be a mistake that they have fallen back on communication. Whilst typing this, why do I get the impression this is going back to the programme issue?

 

Anyhow, fwiw, I don;t care much for the NC/echo/MLT/LMc debate, the £3 on bookings, the late release on the shirt etc etc, but, if they are 'deliberately' or 'intentionally' side-stepping their declared communication responsibilities, I would not be happy about it.

 

Let me make this clear, am I still getting my ST this season? Yes. Will I still be supporting Saints? Yes. Would I like NC to review his actions over the last couple of months? Yes. Do I think we're owed an apology? No. Does he need to improve in these area's? Yes. Should ML have bought this club? Absolutely. Do all of us care about this club? Of course. Should NC change his ways? Don;t know. Could he do things differently but still be the person he is? Of course.

 

Maybe, all of this 'public' knowledge about 'his' business has unsettled him. It is a totally different kettle of fish to what he's done before, in respect to microscopic analysis of every action or in action. And so, I forgive him for his indescretions, but, he would do well to change tact and loosen up a little in regards to communication. Maybe he needs to understand that this maybe ML's club, but they only borrow and treat it right on behalf of the fans, because without the fans, there is no club. Bordering on customers? Maybe...

[benjii]

 

Are you seriously comparing borrowing a tenner from someone in a pub to a multi-million pound turnover business offering a service to enable it to gain maximum revenue in the long term?

 

.

 

LMAO ho ho ho.

 

Clearly the club does not believe an installment plan will gain it maximum revenue in the long term. If it did, it would offer one.

[StuRomseySaint]

All I'm trying to do is to get you to try & think from NC's perspective - you've rebuffed Beancounter this morning when he queried a couple of points, and IMO you are only looking at the issue from the supporters point of view. Getting perspective from the otherside may help understand the issue. That said NC hasn't been that forthcoming with much of explanation. When you are put in NC's position, the decision is not as cut & dried as you make out - you wouldn't take £2 per month - who would!!

 

Woud reiterate, I totally support the complaints against the lack of communication - the Ugly Inside article is spot on and that needs to be the focus, not the payment plan.

 

The focus needs to be the reasons for the lack of communication, not just about the payment plan, but season tickets in general AND everything else. The plan of restricting the amount season ticket holders in order to squeeze more cash out of them is wrong, plain wrong... I would understand it if we were in Prem, but we are not.

 

Do you think it is acceptable for the club 9 days after releasing the season ticket plans, not to even as much as psot a response regarding the numerous complaints they have had and the ill feeling about the club from a large number of support?

 

And I rebuffed Beancounter because he came to the table speculating, even though I have the FACTS in front of me.

Edited 9 June, 2010 by StuRomseySaint

[Thedelldays]

what focus..?

 

why do we need to be spoon fed info from the club on an almost daily basis..?

[StuRomseySaint]

LMAO ho ho ho.

 

Clearly the club does not believe an installment plan will gain it maximum revenue in the long term. If it did, it would offer one.

 

Every single other club including teams such as Manchester United ( who could fill their stadium twice over with pay on the day customers ) who have the demand for a payment plan, have one, why is this oh Benjii genius?

 

Are you suggesting that Cortese knows something that these other clubs don't?

Edited 9 June, 2010 by StuRomseySaint

[trousers]

[John Smith]

The focus needs to be the reasons for the lack of communication, not just about the payment plan, but season tickets in general AND everything else. The plan of restricting the amount season ticket holders in order to squeeze more cash out of them is wrong, plain wrong... I would understand it if we were in League 1, but we are not.

 

Do you think it is acceptable for the club 9 days after releasing the season ticket plans, not to even as much as psot a response regarding the numerous complaints they have had and the ill feeling about the club from a large number of support?

 

And I rebuffed Beancounter because he came to the table speculating, even though I have the FACTS in front of me.

 

You see SRS, I don;t think all these people are 'getting at you'. GeorgieSaint, for instance, has agreed with you in part, but you are ferocious in your response and adament that the club are 'restricting' the amount of ST holders, the club are 'squeezing' more cash out (not commenting on the 'understand if we were in League 1, but we're not', because we are, I am assuming you mean the Prem). You ask if 9 days is a reasonable amount of time not to respond to something that you think is important (and others apparently), but then you end up saying you are not speculating because you have the facts in front of you. But, what you have just done is that exactly, you are speculating about the reason(s) and assuming you are correct.

 

I go along with GeorgieSaints reasoning and Dav's, but I get the feeling you are getting too negative and defensive about this issue, maybe, rightly so. But, some posters are trying to talk to you and you are fairly aggresive in your responses, so it throws doubt over your intentions and reasons for these assumptions, and this, IMO, is why people are 'flaming' you.

 

Maybe, you need to do the same as I think NC should, and that is, take a step back and reconsider your approach. The issues for the club and your interpretation of them are both equally up for debate, but both you and NC could do with some yoga lessons or something, re-evaluate the situation and chill.

 

Fact is, Saints survived last season. Check out my posts for pre-season after ML took over, I said number 1, avoid relegation, number 2, that we are looking up the table rather than over our shoulders, number 3, if at all possible, it would be great if we could push for a play-off place. So, in my eyes, we suceeded. And I think many, many fans, apart from wanting to complain, would like to thank ML and NC for making this season possible and allowing some very good players, led be a very good manager, display their talents for this club. The 5-0 against Huddersfield was a brilliant highlight, as was a day trip to Wembly.

 

And so, what I'm trying to say, far from being a happy clapper, many fans are thankful for the season we've just had and complaing so verociously about fairly minor things, is, to some of us, difficult to accept. Maybe you need a cooling off period, maybe NC needs time to get away and reflect. One things for sure, yours, mine, many fans, the players and NC, all our expectations have gone up and we are in a position of failing if we don;t win the league. WOW, now that's tough expectations to have of this club, maybe desrvedly so, based on last season, but hey, that's why these people do their jobs, I would rather be playing with high expectations than expected to fail. So, maybe this fans charter has gone off course, but lets help the club get it back on track by allowing those lines of communications to be opened up. Not always is attack the best form of defense, maybe sometimes we need to get along and forgive...

[Chez]

Why is it that whenever a club acts in a way to potentially improve its revenue... fans go ape? The irony is that thos ewho complain above are usually the first to bemoan the lack of signings' date=' or investment, [/quote'] are they? Such as who?

[Chez]

what focus..?

 

why do we need to be spoon fed info from the club on an almost daily basis..?

 

happy to get next to no information from the club, perhaps inform the fans of impending payment plans ending in plenty of time instead of telling us about the relaying of the pitch.

[Smirking_Saint]

I have to admit, the fact that only 10% of the STH's were using the payment plan which is around 1300 people, and so within that amount only 50% would not be able to get the additional credit required to get a ST when the season starts which equates to around 650 people i really can't see this being as bigger problem as it is being made out to be here.

 

Add to this the fact that there are only around 10 posters from this entire site that have the hump over this i cannot agree that the MAJORITY are bothered about these issues.

 

OK, i agree they should have communicated the lack of payment plan before hand however you should also have not assumed there to be one provided. Other than that is there really a problem ??

 

It is the close season, no football other than the world cup which is obviously going to delay signings etc and pre season training. So what if we havn't heard anything much barely a month after the season has finished ? Is that really an issue ??

 

As for assumptions being made, i do believe 'Cortese is forcing fans away' is the biggest assumption on this thread.

 

I would also bet good money that we still have more STH's next season than the season just gone regardless of all this nonsense.

[StuRomseySaint]

You see SRS, I don;t think all these people are 'getting at you'. GeorgieSaint, for instance, has agreed with you in part, but you are ferocious in your response and adament that the club are 'restricting' the amount of ST holders, the club are 'squeezing' more cash out (not commenting on the 'understand if we were in League 1, but we're not', because we are, I am assuming you mean the Prem). You ask if 9 days is a reasonable amount of time not to respond to something that you think is important (and others apparently), but then you end up saying you are not speculating because you have the facts in front of you. But, what you have just done is that exactly, you are speculating about the reason(s) and assuming you are correct.

 

I go along with GeorgieSaints reasoning and Dav's, but I get the feeling you are getting too negative and defensive about this issue, maybe, rightly so. But, some posters are trying to talk to you and you are fairly aggresive in your responses, so it throws doubt over your intentions and reasons for these assumptions, and this, IMO, is why people are 'flaming' you.

 

Maybe, you need to do the same as I think NC should, and that is, take a step back and reconsider your approach. The issues for the club and your interpretation of them are both equally up for debate, but both you and NC could do with some yoga lessons or something, re-evaluate the situation and chill.

 

Fact is, Saints survived last season. Check out my posts for pre-season after ML took over, I said number 1, avoid relegation, number 2, that we are looking up the table rather than over our shoulders, number 3, if at all possible, it would be great if we could push for a play-off place. So, in my eyes, we suceeded. And I think many, many fans, apart from wanting to complain, would like to thank ML and NC for making this season possible and allowing some very good players, led be a very good manager, display their talents for this club. The 5-0 against Huddersfield was a brilliant highlight, as was a day trip to Wembly.

 

And so, what I'm trying to say, far from being a happy clapper, many fans are thankful for the season we've just had and complaing so verociously about fairly minor things, is, to some of us, difficult to accept. Maybe you need a cooling off period, maybe NC needs time to get away and reflect. One things for sure, yours, mine, many fans, the players and NC, all our expectations have gone up and we are in a position of failing if we don;t win the league. WOW, now that's tough expectations to have of this club, maybe desrvedly so, based on last season, but hey, that's why these people do their jobs, I would rather be playing with high expectations than expected to fail. So, maybe this fans charter has gone off course, but lets help the club get it back on track by allowing those lines of communications to be opened up. Not always is attack the best form of defense, maybe sometimes we need to get along and forgive...

 

I understand what you are saying, and let me clarify a few things...

 

1) I am 'aggressive' towards some posters because they come to the table speculating with no evidence and try to rubbish what I have found to be fact, through doing research with the very companies involved. Make no bones about it, if I was in any doubt I wouldn't be as public as I am now, because I have no doubt that Cortese would sue/ban any supporter making ficticious statements about the club.

 

I have also taken the time to let Steve Grant know in more detail the information I have recieved and where I got it from etc. This is a potentially very sensitive thread, especially considering Cortese's reputation when dealing with people who disagree/question what he has done.

 

That should tell you something about the credability of what I am posting * although this by no means they, or any of Saintsweb agree with it ( legal bit )

 

2) There is not time to sit back and reflect. As it stands now, the clock is ticking but there is still time for the club to make a '125th Anniversary Gesture' to the fans and source an installment plan.

 

3) The fans charter has not just gone off course, it has been torn up and thrown away. By reading that charter ( Definition: A document outlining the principles, functions, and organization of a corporate body ) you cannot blame any Saints fan for not making arrangements to pay the full amount as it clearly states that any changes will be communicated with fans and feedback sought prior to sale.

 

I will answer every viewpoint on this thread, so far, there has not been one post which gives a reasonable explanation as why it is acceptable behaviour from the club. The club have a duty to answer... if they don't then people have a duty to not turn up and/or question their actions.

Edited 9 June, 2010 by StuRomseySaint

[StuRomseySaint]

I have to admit, the fact that only 10% of the STH's were using the payment plan which is around 1300 people, and so within that amount only 50% would not be able to get the additional credit required to get a ST when the season starts which equates to around 650 people i really can't see this being as bigger problem as it is being made out to be here.

 

Add to this the fact that there are only around 10 posters from this entire site that have the hump over this i cannot agree that the MAJORITY are bothered about these issues.

 

OK, i agree they should have communicated the lack of payment plan before hand however you should also have not assumed there to be one provided. Other than that is there really a problem ??

 

It is the close season, no football other than the world cup which is obviously going to delay signings etc and pre season training. So what if we havn't heard anything much barely a month after the season has finished ? Is that really an issue ??

 

As for assumptions being made, i do believe 'Cortese is forcing fans away' is the biggest assumption on this thread.

 

I would also bet good money that we still have more STH's next season than the season just gone regardless of all this nonsense.

 

I will keep answering your duplicate posts as it's another slow work day.

 

Where did you get the figure of 10% from? I can only assume from the club as you speak of this as a fact.

 

And can you tell me also where you got the 50% figure from that will be able to find alternative arrangements, as again, you speak of this as fact... when common sense would say it will be alot less than that.

 

The one 'assumption' you CAN make is that Cortese wants fewer season ticket holders... Only someone with a blind love of Cortese will see it otherwise.

 

Either that or they need to sack their Marketing Manager!

 

We might have a similar amount of season ticket holder, possibly made up by more 'new' season ticket holders. I can bet you ( and willing to ) that the renewals will be significantly down though, and you would have expected us to have 17-18k season tickets this season, with a fan friendly policy.

[lenwilkins]

We are being commercialised in League 1 FFS at the expense ( in more ways that one ) of the fans.

 

Fair enough if we are in the Premier League, but not League 1.

 

What a load of rubbish. Do you seriously believe that the Premier League is the only League where clobs are run along normal commercial business lines?

 

As for the payment plan, it shouldn't have been withdrawn at short notice. However in general terms if the club doesn't like the idea of people setting up Direct Debits, getting a Season Ticket, then cancelling the DD and continuing to use the ticket to gain access and sit in a different seat, who can blame them? I wouldn't.

[StuRomseySaint]

What a load of rubbish. Do you seriously believe that the Premier League is the only League where clobs are run along normal commercial business lines?

 

As for the payment plan, it shouldn't have been withdrawn at short notice. However in general terms if the club doesn't like the idea of people setting up Direct Debits, getting a Season Ticket, then cancelling the DD and continuing to use the ticket to gain access and sit in a different seat, who can blame them? I wouldn't.

 

In keeping with my policy of replying to my reply to all policy.

 

For the 135th time.

 

How do you know how many people defaulted with regards to payment plans then continued to go?

 

Do you have any figures?

 

Where did you obtain this information from? Because I am assured from the people that administrate the accounts that defaulters are an insignificant percentage due to the nature of the payments. Some people default, which are chased up and collected by the premium company, but very few, if any, try and screw the system over.

 

If you are worried about people obtaining services by deception then by your thinking, season tickets should be completely finished, as there IS a significant amount of season ticket holders who claim their ticket is lost, get a new one printed and give it to a mate for some free footy.

 

That IS a problem, which has been stated by the club before.

[lenwilkins]

I didn't quote any figures.

 

I said if the club doesn't like the idea of defaulters getting into the ground I don't blame them for discontinuing the payment plan, although I do disagree with their timing.

 

As far as I can gather you are getting agitated because the money you were going to spend on a Season Ticket you now need to use on repairing a car you bought without checking over properly.

 

Is it Cortese's fault that the tyres were bald too?

[StuRomseySaint]

I didn't quote any figures.

 

I said if the club doesn't like the idea of defaulters getting into the ground I don't blame them for discontinuing the payment plan, although I do disagree with their timing.

 

As far as I can gather you are getting agitated because the money you were going to spend on a Season Ticket you now need to use on repairing a car you bought without checking over properly.

 

Is it Cortese's fault that the tyres were bald too?

 

Again Len, you are speculating without actually doing any research.

 

If you remember, I was going to renew up until I had money to pay out for my car... but I STILL emailed the club and was still looking into it, so my personal situation has nothing to do with it, I just see the club as treating their fans with complete contempt.

 

If they do not back down on thie situation, I have no doubt next year that I will be saying " I told you so " when people complain at yet another hike in season tickets, regardless of what division we are in.

[lenwilkins]

If they do not back down on thie situation, I have no doubt next year that I will be saying " I told you so " when people complain at yet another hike in season tickets, regardless of what division we are in.

 

Let me join you in speculating Stu; I also have no doubt that they will hike ST prices again next year by as much as they think the majority of the fan base will tolerate. I don't think that there is any chance of the club backing down, this is clearly the way they intend to run Saints.

 

I'd suggest renewing in the Chapel End - it's a lot cheaper. It would be interesting to hear what Mr Cortese says to parents with kids in the Family Stand if it becomes a lot fuller and more 'vocal' because of his own pricing structure.

[StuRomseySaint]

Let me join you in speculating Stu; I also have no doubt that they will hike ST prices again next year by as much as they think the majority of the fan base will tolerate. I don't think that there is any chance of the club backing down, this is clearly the way they intend to run Saints.

 

I'd suggest renewing in the Chapel End - it's a lot cheaper. It would be interesting to hear what Mr Cortese says to parents with kids in the Family Stand if it becomes a lot fuller and more 'vocal' because of his own pricing structure.

 

I would rather not turn up than go in the Family Enclosure to be honest.

 

As for as what cost they think the fans will tolerate, you have hit the nail on the head there. If you show the club you tolerate something, they will do it again and again.

 

This forum is not representative of the majority of Southampton fans. This is where the core of support will come, the core support will generally take anything that comes their way, price rises, the dropping of installment plans, loss of any other benefits etc... not to mention that every person that comes on here will be fully aware of the season tickets, as non TSW members might not be.

 

The fact 30% of people polled on here have said they are not going to renew in my opinion is a reflection of the ticketing policies installed by Mr Cortese.

[Saint_clark]

Have the club responded to this at all then?

[StuRomseySaint]

Have the club responded to this at all then?

 

Not as yet. I sent the first email on 1st June and another one on 4th June, neither have been responded to yet.

 

However I have asked for a response from Mr Cortese himself. I speak to David Luker regulary but don't feel it fair to either him or myself for David to have to respond, so have asked for the email to be responded to by Cortese himself, or another member of the senior management team.

 

I will cut Cortese some slack though, as he may have been in Malta for a few days and have some catching up to do. Although I would expect a reply at the end of this week.

Edited 9 June, 2010 by StuRomseySaint

[trousers]

Not as yet. I sent the first email on 1st July and another one on 4th July, neither have been responded to yet.

 

Fret ye not.....here comes Cortese now, on his way back from the future with all the answers....

 

[StuRomseySaint]

Fret ye not.....here comes Cortese now, on his way back from the future with all the answers....

 

It means he is 11 months late.

 

But great attempts at trying to hijack the thread.

 

If you don't have anything to say, don't say it? I have agreed to keep my views about the installment plans etc on here... how about you respect that and stop being a mong?

[iansums]

Not as yet. I sent the first email on 1st July and another one on 4th July, neither have been responded to yet.

 

However I have asked for a response from Mr Cortese himself. I speak to David Luker regulary (poor sod) but don't feel it fair to either him or myself for David to have to respond, so have asked for the email to be responded to by Cortese himself, or another member of the senior management team.

 

I will cut Cortese some slack though (how kind of you), as he may have been in Malta for a few days and have some catching up to do. Although I would expect a reply at the end of this week.

 

LOL, hilarious post. Are you being serious? You appear to have a very high opinion of yourself.

[Smirking_Saint]

I will keep answering your duplicate posts as it's another slow work day.

 

Where did you get the figure of 10% from? I can only assume from the club as you speak of this as a fact.

 

And can you tell me also where you got the 50% figure from that will be able to find alternative arrangements, as again, you speak of this as fact... when common sense would say it will be alot less than that.

 

The one 'assumption' you CAN make is that Cortese wants fewer season ticket holders... Only someone with a blind love of Cortese will see it otherwise.

 

Either that or they need to sack their Marketing Manager!

 

We might have a similar amount of season ticket holder, possibly made up by more 'new' season ticket holders. I can bet you ( and willing to ) that the renewals will be significantly down though, and you would have expected us to have 17-18k season tickets this season, with a fan friendly policy.

 

Not really a duplicate, it was slightly different to the rest, and a lot easier to read then your now vociferous replies to anyone that dare speak out against you Stu.

 

I respected the start of the thread and even understood a few points because, fair play to you, you went out and did some research.

 

Unfortunately from that research you made up some unfounded and TBH slightly unbelievable and sensationalist reasoning behind the lack of a payment plan.

 

You then go on to completely ignore and shoot down anybody that dares pose a counter arguement of any sort and refuse to answer some questions towards the research etc you have done.

 

I stand by what i said, there is very few of you that is bothered about this issue at all and the 10% ish numbers for the payment plan have come from your own posts further on in the thread on the matter so did you make these assumptions also ?? As for those that take up credit i would say it was around 50%, certainly not under 30% and that leaves still a reletively small amount of people that are left wanting of the payment plan and begs the question that if credit lending facilities do not trust them to repay the credit they take then they should not be taking it in the first place.

 

Unfortunately only someone with a blind hate of Cortese and everything he tries to achieve right now will be this persistant with his rants.

[StuRomseySaint]

LOL, hilarious post. Are you being serious? You appear to have a very high opinion of yourself.

 

The last bit was a bit of sarcasm you 'tard.

 

But yes, I would expect a reply from the club about some pretty serious accusations put to them... and within 7 days, as per their Supporters Charter ( lol )

[trousers]

It means he is 11 months late.

 

But great attempts at trying to hijack the thread.

 

If you don't have anything to say, don't say it? I have agreed to keep my views about the installment plans etc on here... how about you respect that and stop being a mong?

 

Stop being a mong? After 41 years of fastidious training? A little harsh if you ask me. Perhaps I could slowly ween myself off....say 12 episodes of mongness for the first week gradually whittled down to 1 or 2 episodes by the start of the season?

[StuRomseySaint]

Not really a duplicate, it was slightly different to the rest, and a lot easier to read then your now vociferous replies to anyone that dare speak out against you Stu.

 

I respected the start of the thread and even understood a few points because, fair play to you, you went out and did some research.

 

Unfortunately from that research you made up some unfounded and TBH slightly unbelievable and sensationalist reasoning behind the lack of a payment plan.

 

You then go on to completely ignore and shoot down anybody that dares pose a counter arguement of any sort and refuse to answer some questions towards the research etc you have done.

 

I stand by what i said, there is very few of you that is bothered about this issue at all and the 10% ish numbers for the payment plan have come from your own posts further on in the thread on the matter so did you make these assumptions also ?? As for those that take up credit i would say it was around 50%, certainly not under 30% and that leaves still a reletively small amount of people that are left wanting of the payment plan and begs the question that if credit lending facilities do not trust them to repay the credit they take then they should not be taking it in the first place.

 

Unfortunately only someone with a blind hate of Cortese and everything he tries to achieve right now will be this persistant with his rants.

 

I think you would do well to remember that the majority of people who rely on a payment plan would be from the lower income bracket, thus from the lower end of the credit score, as such many can't afford £350 in one hit nor qualify for a loan.

 

Would you say the above is a fair statement?

 

Yes I have shot down alot of people on this thread, mainly because they come to the table and try and rubbish the facts I have spent the time getting, with complete speculation and guesses... just like your 10% figure and 50% of them qualifying for credit is.

 

Just as people jumped on the bandwagon when one person posted the only reason which I couldn't prove at the time for the lack of payment plan. Which was defaulters... all of a sudden every person started using that as the reason.

 

I still await one of you uberfans to come on this thread and challenge me with some FACTS

 

It can't be that hard... you really could do some serious pwnage of me if what you say is true... this is an opportunity not to be missed, surely?

 

And just again, because you still keep forgetting... An installment plan is NOT credit.

[iansums]

The last bit was a bit of sarcasm you 'tard.

 

But yes, I would expect a reply from the club about some pretty serious accusations put to them... and within 7 days, as per their Supporters Charter ( lol )

 

Many thanks, so compared to you I'm a retard. As I said you have a very high opinion of yourself.

[StuRomseySaint]

If nobody has any constructive debate left and can't come up with any constructive reasons as to why Cortese is not trying to rip off fans, I assume we can lock this now and await response from the club?