Reply from David Luker re installment plan

[The Kraken]

You do make some valid points especially in relation to the lack of communication and because of the delay in announcing the ST details for no real apparent reason.

 

I think it's difficult to judge the impact of this move from a business perspective until we know the percentage of ST sales which were paid by installments in previous seasons and the administration costs attached as a result.

 

And that's my only issue with the whole thing really (aside from the booking fee!). I think the price rises are acceptable across the board, and if the club had decided that the payment scheme wasn't for them then they really should have given notice of it some time ago, and not hours before the tickets go on sale.

 

I've said it a few times, I think most people who really want a season ticket will find a way to get one. Some will miss out, sure, but most will find a way. I just find the lack of engagement with the fans in helpiing to find alternative options to be thing that sticks in the throat, and the silent delay before announcing their plans just made it doubly worse.

[redkeith]

I do think that the club has missed a trick here, with the explanation of why they are not offering a payment plan this year. After all of the banking problems the banks would obviously hike up the cost of a payement plan, as it represents a higher risk.

 

I do not mean to offend anyone by that comment, but fundamentally people who save up in a season for next season's ticket represent a far lower risk than people who borrow each year to buy a ticket.

 

Once the club realised that such credit could not be offered at reasonable terms, due to the costs imposed by the banks, they should have notified supporters straight away, so that they could have tried to make alternative arrangements.

 

I fully understand what the club is doing, but the timing and detail of the explaination leave a lot to be desired.

[Redondo Saint]

Flip side,

 

Why should I give the club the whole season's money in one go?

 

Answer? I won't....

 

There is no risk involved, the club is just being lazy and ever so slightly arrogant. Do some work, if the fan defaults nullify the ticket. The fact that they changed it from a card to a book of tickets was just a cost cutting exercise. The real future of the club is via scanned plastic cards...

 

No scan, no game...

 

And why should people be getting into debt for a flaming game of football? Is anyone so stupendously naive to think that that new credit card won't be used, that it won't get it's new owner even more into debt? Can't afford the MOT? Put it on the card. Need a present for little Charlie? Put it on the card....

 

It's a massive on goal for the club and an even bigger wedge between the haves and have nots...

 

And before some smartarse comes up with "Well if you can't afford to go, you shouldn't go.." How many of us can really afford to go? How many of make a sacrifice here and there to make that game? If the club really doesn't value the support of the poorly off of us, what does it say about the club and football in general and where it's heading?

 

Answer? Not much...

 

I do sympathise for those that can't afford to pay in one hit, but can you expect SFC to offer payment plans because some people can't be trusted with a credit card?

 

I don't think it's a smart arse comment to question why you should go if you can't afford it.

 

Money is tight for everyone (except perhaps pro football players) and some things have to be put on hold until more affordable.

[dune]

Under the old system had you in effect payed the installment before the fixture, i.e were you always in advance?

[St. Jason]

I do sympathise for those that can't afford to pay in one hit, but can you expect SFC to offer payment plans because some people can't be trusted with a credit card?

 

I don't think it's a smart arse comment to question why you should go if you can't afford it.

 

Money is tight for everyone (except perhaps pro football players) and some things have to be put on hold until more affordable.

 

Yes I do expect SFC to offer a payment plan, especially when you read this "a payment plan for season tickets to make them cost-effective." within the 'Supporters charter" I've used this form of payment for as long as can remember, why would I not expect this arrangement to carry on?

 

I along with most would of been in a position to pay outright, IF i'd been advised earlier that this facility was to be withgrawn!

[St. Jason]

Under the old system had you in effect payed the installment before the fixture, i.e were you always in advance?

 

Yes, when it was 'March madness' you'd almost paid for the entire season ticket by the time the season had ko!

 

As I said earlier it's easy to police, change the terms to 5 months, take the 1st payment on April 1st and last payment on 1st August, once all payments had cleared you then send the season ticket!

[St. Jason]

I do sympathise for those that can't afford to pay in one hit, but can you expect SFC to offer payment plans because some people can't be trusted with a credit card?

 

I don't think it's a smart arse comment to question why you should go if you can't afford it.

 

Money is tight for everyone (except perhaps pro football players) and some things have to be put on hold until more affordable.

 

An example of good ticketing that rewards the fan's loyalty and get's much needed income into the club and more importantly a full stadium!

 

http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/NewsDetails/0,,10355~1941398,00.html

[PokingFun]

Im sorry that fans who want to pay by installments can't, but surely most can do so by credit card. No doubt a few didnt play the game and didnt pay up as promised which has now rebounded on the good ones.

 

In fairness Nick, this is probably nail hit firmly on the head. In the current economic climate, there are going to be plenty of people who will happily default on paying for the footie instalments when it comes to a question of that versus the bills!

 

Anyway, there is a form of instalments available at a surcharge and its called purchasing a matchday ticket every game rather than a season ticket! There is always that choice available.

[PokingFun]

I had the same reply to my protest so obviously pre-prepared. If all on this site who do not agree with the decision, e-mail David Luker, the shear number might, just might, bring an about turn. If we do not try, we can never win!

 

Or maybe not pre-prepared and simply stating the truth. The cost of staff to administer the scheme plus getting a finance house to fund it could well be too high. You don't think the club themselves would fund something like this if they are sensible and well versed in business do you?

[PokingFun]

Not true. Every year since he's been at the club, it has been Luker who has put together the pricing package for both season and matchday tickets, which have then been discussed and rubber-stamped by the board.

 

 

The season ticket situation is far from the only thing which has led to poor communication from the club recently.

 

 

Totally agree, no issue with the price at all.

 

I don't think the £125 thing has had much bearing on peoples' views, really - anyone with half a brain knew that wasn't a realistic prospect - why would the club chuck away more than £1m in near-guaranteed revenues when they're trying to run the club in a sustainable manner?

 

The main problem for me is that there's no obvious reason why these prices couldn't have been announced a month or more ago, thereby giving everyone more time to get the money together. Giving people 30 days at the renewal price makes the process seem really rushed - it's not as if the ticket office have been rushed off their feet with work since the end of the season, and there's no special announcement that the prices are linked to. It's all rather baffling, and certainly isn't the first time that's been the case with SFC this season.

 

Steve, come on, surely everyone knew that roughly they would have to put aside between £350-£450 for a ST regardless of when the announcement came.

[The9]

Steve, come on, surely everyone knew that roughly they would have to put aside between £350-£450 for a ST regardless of when the announcement came.

 

Not if they'd assumed that the club would offer the same sort of finance or instalment payments as pretty much every other club in English football...

 

Where's the logic in saving up for something you're expecting to be able to afford anyway?

[Saint_clark]

I got a similar reply and sent another one asking that if Season Ticket sales are not as good as they expect, will they reconsider for next season.

No reply as of yet.

[AussieDog]

To me the big bone of contention is the lack of advance notice, and is a serious lack of consideration for the fan base. Having said that....if people had carried on saving the money they were paying on their installments last year, once they had been paid off, then they probably wouldn't be in the position of bleating about it now! Oh....and for all you people out there suggestion getting another credit card - they really don't just give them away - you have to undergo credit checks and they quite often say no!

[Goalie66]

I already have like two grand on a credit card from when I started my own business, if there's a direct debit taking the money straight from my account that's a lot better than more money on a credit card that I'll just keep putting off and paying the minimum ammount each month.

 

It's not like my suggestion would hard the club in anyway, I think the club must have had a few people cancelling direct debits and running into arrears. There's no other viable reason to not offering payment installments.

 

At the end of the day we're customers and we aren't being looked after. If I went into Vauxhall to buy a new car and they didn't offer me a finance deal I'd walk down to road and buy a Ford. Obviously it's different with Football which is a shame as customers really don't have much swing because they know we will keep coming back no matter what (within reason).

 

Is a supporter a customer? Yes in today's economy the choice is season ticket v buy on the day if you live locally or willing to attend the majority of games.

 

Cortese has calculated that he can make more money from the floating supporter rather than the season ticket holder, hence the surcharges for online bookings and match days.

 

However, what concerns me is the apparent contempt towards "customers"

 

1. No announcement date for availability of season tickets

2. No warning over installment payments

3. One month to renew or face much higher increase than rate of inflation

4. No communication as to why there was no programme against Southend

5 Unclear as to whether Surcharge is on away tickets

 

The impression is that Cortese is an autocrat and will get his way. As with all autocrats they start to believe that they know everything and are NEVER wrong.

 

The feelgood factor is still good and whilst results on the pitch remain good then Cortese's popularity will remain high. However, afew more mistakes, the sacking of Pardew, for instance, and his star will plummet rapidly.

[SaintRobbie]

Had a reply from Mr Luker. Reason given is that the administrative costs are too high. Sounds like a cop out excuse to me, I just hope the administrative savings outweigh the lost revenue from those that now can't/won't renew.

 

Sounds like a cop out as the admin costs are too high to me.

 

When you're a successful club and going places, selling tickets and well backed, such schemes are nice to haves but probably take staff time rather than money.

 

That said, it was a scheme that helped genuine supporters out by spreading the load over time. Maybe we need a fan's forum to represent such views to the club afterall?

[Daren W]

I do sympathise for those that can't afford to pay in one hit, but can you expect SFC to offer payment plans because some people can't be trusted with a credit card?

 

I don't think it's a smart arse comment to question why you should go if you can't afford it.

 

Money is tight for everyone (except perhaps pro football players) and some things have to be put on hold until more affordable.

 

Again, why are people picking and choosing what they listen to?

 

Who said any of us can't afford it? I can, but I can't afford £323 in one hit in a month I'm flying off for ten days in Turkey when I was told the installment option was still a going concern. I'd say it was a smartsare comment when you don't pay the slightest attention to what people are actually saying. I find it offensive when some people on here are implying that those us caught on the hop by the club's tearing up of the "Fans Charter" somehow "can't afford it"

 

Season tickets are a form of reverse credit. We are paying in ADVANCE for games. Even if you pay in installments you're paying in advance from December onwards when you've paid in full.. Why is it so hard for people to see that?

 

Why are people so fecking arrogant that their answer to the whole problem is, get yourself in debt? The installment plan gave people a budget option, why should people get a credit card to pay for a season ticket when for years they've had an option to pay in smaller (FFS £50 a month is hardly small) installments??

 

And again, no one is saying they can't can't afford to go to football. They are saying they can't afford to pay up to £400 in one hit after the club removed a legitimate payment method with NO NOTICE...

 

The attitude of some people on here has been shameful. They can afford £400 in one hit so **** anyone else who can't...

 

The point is, if the club had told us in January that they were withdrawing this option then we wouldn't be having this conversation. The fact that they have ripped up their "Fans Charter" just one month after the season ended should be the topic of conversation here rather than smug comments about people's ability to find large sums of money at short notice when the club has PROMISED that half season tickets and installment plans would feature in their ticket options...

 

If Lowe had done this people would be up in arms, why is it acceptable because it's Cortese?

Edited 2 June, 2010 by Daren W

[saints_is_the_south]

Again, why are people picking and choosing what they listen to?

 

Season tickets are a form of reverse credit. We are paying in ADVANCE for games. Even if you pay in installments you're paying in advance from December onwards when you've paid in full.. Why is it so hard for people to see that?

 

Why are people so fecking arrogant that their answer to the whole problem is, get yourself in debt? The installment plan gave people a budget option, why should people get a credit card to pay for a season ticket when for years they've had an option to pay in smaller (FFS £50 a month is hardly small) installments??

 

And again, no one is saying they can't can't afford to go to football. They are saying they can't afford to pay up to £400 in one hit after the club removed a legitimate payment method with NO NOTICE...

 

The attitude of some people on here has been shameful. They can afford £400 in one hit so **** anyone else who can't...

 

The point is, if the club had told us in January that they were withdrawing this option then we wouldn't be having this conversation. The fact that they have ripped up their "Fans Charter" just one month after the season ended should be the topic of conversation here rather than smug comments about people's ability to find large sums of money at short notice when the club has PROMISED that half season tickets and installment plans would feature in their ticket options...

 

If Lowe had done this people would be up in arms, why is it acceptable because it's Cortese?

 

Couldn't have put it any better myself.

 

Sent another email back to Luker about how this whole saga is going to reduce ST numbers and that they really should think about reviewing it. Even suggested adding a £10/£15 surcharge on for those who do wish to pay monthly to cover the admin cost.

[John B]

Couldn't have put it any better myself.

 

Sent another email back to Luker about how this whole saga is going to reduce ST numbers and that they really should think about reviewing it. Even suggested adding a £10/£15 surcharge on for those who do wish to pay monthly to cover the admin cost.

 

I dont disagree with what you are saying but I feel an installment plan is quite impractical as we are now in June.

 

Ideally season tickets would be sent out after the final payment

[Isabel Healey]

Spot On !!

 

Again, why are people picking and choosing what they listen to?

 

Who said any of us can't afford it? I can, but I can't afford £323 in one hit in a month I'm flying off for ten days in Turkey when I was told the installment option was still a going concern. I'd say it was a smartsare comment when you don't pay the slightest attention to what people are actually saying. I find it offensive when some people on here are implying that those us caught on the hop by the club's tearing up of the "Fans Charter" somehow "can't afford it"

 

Season tickets are a form of reverse credit. We are paying in ADVANCE for games. Even if you pay in installments you're paying in advance from December onwards when you've paid in full.. Why is it so hard for people to see that?

 

Why are people so fecking arrogant that their answer to the whole problem is, get yourself in debt? The installment plan gave people a budget option, why should people get a credit card to pay for a season ticket when for years they've had an option to pay in smaller (FFS £50 a month is hardly small) installments??

 

And again, no one is saying they can't can't afford to go to football. They are saying they can't afford to pay up to £400 in one hit after the club removed a legitimate payment method with NO NOTICE...

 

The attitude of some people on here has been shameful. They can afford £400 in one hit so **** anyone else who can't...

 

The point is, if the club had told us in January that they were withdrawing this option then we wouldn't be having this conversation. The fact that they have ripped up their "Fans Charter" just one month after the season ended should be the topic of conversation here rather than smug comments about people's ability to find large sums of money at short notice when the club has PROMISED that half season tickets and installment plans would feature in their ticket options...

 

If Lowe had done this people would be up in arms, why is it acceptable because it's Cortese?

[West End Saint]

Again, why are people picking and choosing what they listen to?

 

Who said any of us can't afford it? I can, but I can't afford £323 in one hit in a month I'm flying off for ten days in Turkey when I was told the installment option was still a going concern. I'd say it was a smartsare comment when you don't pay the slightest attention to what people are actually saying. I find it offensive when some people on here are implying that those us caught on the hop by the club's tearing up of the "Fans Charter" somehow "can't afford it"

 

Season tickets are a form of reverse credit. We are paying in ADVANCE for games. Even if you pay in installments you're paying in advance from December onwards when you've paid in full.. Why is it so hard for people to see that?

 

Why are people so fecking arrogant that their answer to the whole problem is, get yourself in debt? The installment plan gave people a budget option, why should people get a credit card to pay for a season ticket when for years they've had an option to pay in smaller (FFS £50 a month is hardly small) installments??

 

And again, no one is saying they can't can't afford to go to football. They are saying they can't afford to pay up to £400 in one hit after the club removed a legitimate payment method with NO NOTICE...

 

The attitude of some people on here has been shameful. They can afford £400 in one hit so **** anyone else who can't...

 

The point is, if the club had told us in January that they were withdrawing this option then we wouldn't be having this conversation. The fact that they have ripped up their "Fans Charter" just one month after the season ended should be the topic of conversation here rather than smug comments about people's ability to find large sums of money at short notice when the club has PROMISED that half season tickets and installment plans would feature in their ticket options...

 

If Lowe had done this people would be up in arms, why is it acceptable because it's Cortese?

 

Very well put.

 

In previous seasons I choose to pay up front rather than pay more in the long run but I did have a choice.

 

Luckily I will be able to pay for my ticket out of some savings but I think the club have made a mistake not having a payment plan at the very least there should have been prior warning.

 

What happened with putting the customer first ? This should have been handled very differently not NC's finest hour

[JustMike]

Again, why are people picking and choosing what they listen to?

 

Who said any of us can't afford it? I can, but I can't afford £323 in one hit in a month I'm flying off for ten days in Turkey when I was told the installment option was still a going concern. I'd say it was a smartsare comment when you don't pay the slightest attention to what people are actually saying. I find it offensive when some people on here are implying that those us caught on the hop by the club's tearing up of the "Fans Charter" somehow "can't afford it"

 

Season tickets are a form of reverse credit. We are paying in ADVANCE for games. Even if you pay in installments you're paying in advance from December onwards when you've paid in full.. Why is it so hard for people to see that?

 

Why are people so fecking arrogant that their answer to the whole problem is, get yourself in debt? The installment plan gave people a budget option, why should people get a credit card to pay for a season ticket when for years they've had an option to pay in smaller (FFS £50 a month is hardly small) installments??

 

And again, no one is saying they can't can't afford to go to football. They are saying they can't afford to pay up to £400 in one hit after the club removed a legitimate payment method with NO NOTICE...

 

The attitude of some people on here has been shameful. They can afford £400 in one hit so **** anyone else who can't...

 

The point is, if the club had told us in January that they were withdrawing this option then we wouldn't be having this conversation. The fact that they have ripped up their "Fans Charter" just one month after the season ended should be the topic of conversation here rather than smug comments about people's ability to find large sums of money at short notice when the club has PROMISED that half season tickets and installment plans would feature in their ticket options...

 

If Lowe had done this people would be up in arms, why is it acceptable because it's Cortese?

 

you wont have to pay it in one go, you have over 2 months to find the cash, yes granted you will miss out on the renewall discount which isnt good for those that have had season tickets for years, including through the darker times, but hey, at least you will have one. Also, like people have said already, put it on a card, if people are willing to pay interest on an installment scheme then why not do the same via a card

[saintbletch]

Again, why are people picking and choosing what they listen to?

 

Who said any of us can't afford it? I can, but I can't afford £323 in one hit in a month I'm flying off for ten days in Turkey when I was told the installment option was still a going concern. I'd say it was a smartsare comment when you don't pay the slightest attention to what people are actually saying. I find it offensive when some people on here are implying that those us caught on the hop by the club's tearing up of the "Fans Charter" somehow "can't afford it"

 

Season tickets are a form of reverse credit. We are paying in ADVANCE for games. Even if you pay in installments you're paying in advance from December onwards when you've paid in full.. Why is it so hard for people to see that?

 

Why are people so fecking arrogant that their answer to the whole problem is, get yourself in debt? The installment plan gave people a budget option, why should people get a credit card to pay for a season ticket when for years they've had an option to pay in smaller (FFS £50 a month is hardly small) installments??

 

And again, no one is saying they can't can't afford to go to football. They are saying they can't afford to pay up to £400 in one hit after the club removed a legitimate payment method with NO NOTICE...

 

The attitude of some people on here has been shameful. They can afford £400 in one hit so **** anyone else who can't...

 

The point is, if the club had told us in January that they were withdrawing this option then we wouldn't be having this conversation. The fact that they have ripped up their "Fans Charter" just one month after the season ended should be the topic of conversation here rather than smug comments about people's ability to find large sums of money at short notice when the club has PROMISED that half season tickets and installment plans would feature in their ticket options...

 

If Lowe had done this people would be up in arms, why is it acceptable because it's Cortese?

 

A good post.

 

A couple of points which are not intended to minimise the main thrust of your post which I agree with. I just think you're not seeing the problem of defaulters from the club's perspective.

 

I think that your suggestion that there is a difference between being in debt to a credit card company and being in "debt" to the club goes right to heart of the matter, and I don't see quite the distinction you do.

 

As I see it you are saying that if you pay in advance of getting the benefit of going to the games, then it isn't credit. But look at it from the club's perspective and I think you'll see that club sees this as providing a finite resource that cannot be re-sold (easily) for a staged-payment that carries the risk of default. And that is credit.

 

IF the club gives you a season ticket and you agree to pay for it on instalments and you go on to default on your payments then the club has all sorts of problems with re-selling that seat. The manual check of the ticket on the turnstiles will let anyone into the stadium with a "valid" ticket. So the seat that was sold on instalments and subsequently defaulted on has no further value to the club. It has to stay empty because selling that to someone else probably contravenes some h+s regulation or would at least cause disputes over seats, etc.

 

St. Jason's suggestion below of staging the payments BEFORE the season kicks off would have got around this. As would a computerised ticketing system. As would working with a finance company to manage the instalment plans - as the club would receive all monies up front and the finance company would carry the risk of collection. It's a shame that the club didn't look at other ways of solving the problem.

 

None of this changes the sad fact that some fans will lose out and the club has communicated incredibly poorly here. But most worryingly is the semantic dance that David Luker appears to be playing over whether the contents of a charter are valid from one year to the next.

 

I happen to believe that the word charter suggests something that has been arrived at following struggle or negotiation and that the rights that are extended within the charter will not be changed easily. That we have a charter for a season - or half season means nothing. It appears that one man's charter is another man's terms and conditions.

[The9]

No-one saying "you should have saved, now get a credit card" has yet managed to explain why people who don't now have the cash hanging round should have been saving for an ST when all previous indications from the club are that there would be an instalment plan. Or what people who already have a 0% credit card and are responsibly managing their money on that are supposed to do ?

 

...nor why the club mentioned providing an instalment plan for Season Tickets in their Dec 09 Charter document when they haven't sold any new FULL STs since then - if it was only for half STs for 09/10 as claimed, why didn't the Charter say that it only applied to Half STs ?

 

The answer presumably is because at the time it was the plan to have instalments for STs (like everyone else does), and only now the club has looked into it has someone thrown a wobbler about the charges (I wonder who?) and has this unsatisfactory half-baked mish mash of a "policy" emerged.

 

I heard a rumour that David Luker had nothing to do with ticketing at all, and is innocent in this debacle, seems logical when you consider he's been involved with Saints STs all the time we've been at St Mary's and there's never been a peep about methods of payment previously (and that he's been headhunted by Prem clubs previously). Of course, he's the one who gets to respond to the emails...

Edited 2 June, 2010 by The9

[hypochondriac]

If you were guessing in December, all indications were that there would be an installment plan.

[JustMike]

No-one saying "you should have saved, now get a credit card" has yet managed to explain why people who don't now have the cash hanging round should have been saving for an ST when all previous indications from the club are that there would be an instalment plan. Or what people who already have a 0% credit card and are responsibly managing their money on that are supposed to do ?

 

...nor why the club mentioned providing an instalment plan for Season Tickets in their Dec 09 Charter document when they haven't sold any new FULL STs since then - if it was only for half STs for 09/10 as claimed, why didn't the Charter say that it only applied to Half STs ?

 

The answer presumably is because at the time it was the plan to have instalments for STs (like everyone else does), and only now the club has looked into it has someone thrown a wobbler about the charges (I wonder who?) and has this unsatisfactory half-baked mish mash of a "policy" emerged.

 

I heard a rumour that David Luker had nothing to do with ticketing at all, and is innocent in this debacle, seems logical when you consider he's been involved with Saints STs all the time we've been at St Mary's and there's never been a peep about methods of payment previously (and that he's been headhunted by Prem clubs previously). Of course, he's the one who gets to respond to the emails...

 

as far as i remember there was no installment plan for half season tickets

[Daren W]

A good post.

 

A couple of points which are not intended to minimise the main thrust of your post which I agree with. I just think you're not seeing the problem of defaulters from the club's perspective.

 

I think that your suggestion that there is a difference between being in debt to a credit card company and being in "debt" to the club goes right to heart of the matter, and I don't see quite the distinction you do.

 

As I see it you are saying that if you pay in advance of getting the benefit of going to the games, then it isn't credit. But look at it from the club's perspective and I think you'll see that club sees this as providing a finite resource that cannot be re-sold (easily) for a staged-payment that carries the risk of default. And that is credit.

 

IF the club gives you a season ticket and you agree to pay for it on instalments and you go on to default on your payments then the club has all sorts of problems with re-selling that seat. The manual check of the ticket on the turnstiles will let anyone into the stadium with a "valid" ticket. So the seat that was sold on instalments and subsequently defaulted on has no further value to the club. It has to stay empty because selling that to someone else probably contravenes some h+s regulation or would at least cause disputes over seats, etc.

 

St. Jason's suggestion below of staging the payments BEFORE the season kicks off would have got around this. As would a computerised ticketing system. As would working with a finance company to manage the instalment plans - as the club would receive all monies up front and the finance company would carry the risk of collection. It's a shame that the club didn't look at other ways of solving the problem.

 

None of this changes the sad fact that some fans will lose out and the club has communicated incredibly poorly here. But most worryingly is the semantic dance that David Luker appears to be playing over whether the contents of a charter are valid from one year to the next.

 

I happen to believe that the word charter suggests something that has been arrived at following struggle or negotiation and that the rights that are extended within the charter will not be changed easily. That we have a charter for a season - or half season means nothing. It appears that one man's charter is another man's terms and conditions.

 

1) Defaulted seats are up for grabs. I stated on here the case of my mate Carlo who had his season ticket taken off him for putting one foot on the red tarmac during a red mist moment. The club kept his ticket, his seat and refused to refund the money and then re-sold the seat. Carlo's wife then had to sit next to complete stranger and subsequently didn't renew the next season. So the assumption that the club would "lose" a seat if the owner default is incorrect. The seat would be up for grabs and re-sellable the moment someone defaults. The club is just being lazy..

 

2) Credit. It is not a credit arrangement. You pay, say, £50 a month so by the time August comes around you'd have paid at least £150 and, if anything, still paying in advance until you get to December when you've paid it off. If the club cannot police this then the fans that pay religiously every month cannot be held responsible.

 

This whole "credit" thing is muddying the waters here, this is not a credit arrangement. Credit implies you are getting something and paying for it later, this is NOT credit. Why are people ignoring the fact that season ticket are reverse credit and asking people to pay in advance? Even in installments you are effectively paying in advance...

Edited 2 June, 2010 by Daren W

[once_bitterne]

1) Defaulted seats are up for grabs. I stated on here the case of my mate Carlo who had his season ticket taken off him for putting one foot on the red tarmac during a red mist moment. The club kept his ticket, his seat and refused to refund the money and then re-sold the seat. Carlo's wife then had to sit next to complete stranger and subsequently didn't renew the next season. So the assumption that the club would "lose" a seat if the owner default is incorrect. The seat would be up for grabs and re-sellable the moment someone defaults. The club is just being lazy..

 

2) Credit. It is not a credit arrangement. You pay, say, £50 a month so by the time August comes around you'd have paid at least £150 and, if anything, still paying in advance until you get to December when you've paid it off. If the club cannot police this then the fans that pay religiously every month cannot be held responsible.

 

This whole "credit" thing is muddying the waters here, this is not a credit arrangement. Credit implies you are getting something and paying for it later, this is NOT credit. Why are people ignoring the fact that season ticket are reverse credit and asking people to pay in advance? Even in installments you are effectively paying in advance...

 

Didn't Carlo's missus end up running off with the bloke she was sitting next to so at least the story had a happy ending?

[Toomer]

I have bought and paid for my ST but I do think the club should have a re-think on the payment plan situation, I am sure that it is only a small number that have voiced their opinion on TSW. There must be a good few hundred or more who are in the position that the only way they can afford to buy a ST was by paying by instalments.

[Daren W]

Didn't Carlo's missus end up running off with the bloke she was sitting next to so at least the story had a happy ending?

 

lol...

You obviously never saw him....

[Block 5]

as far as i remember there was no installment plan for half season tickets

 

I think you're right.

 

Which would mean that the guff in the 'charter' was just hot air designed to win over the fans.

 

And that begs the question...... What else in the 'charter' was BS?

[The9]

as far as i remember there was no installment plan for half season tickets

 

In which case why publish information in December 09 about season tickets that had been already sold (mostly) in July/August 09, and then renege on that agreement before the next STs are sold ?

 

Ridiculous piece of un-PR.

[hypochondriac]

saintbletch a good post and it's probably what I am most disappointed about. What is the point of publicising a charter in December talking about installment plans to then just change it 6 months later. I don't really understand that.

[saintbletch]

I disagree with both your examples and your summary but I'll acknowledge I am not working from a position of knowledge, just some assumptions - which is a good start for a debate.

 

1) Defaulted seats are up for grabs. I stated on here the case of my mate Carlo who had his season ticket taken off him for putting one foot on the red tarmac during a red mist moment. The club kept his ticket, his seat and refused to refund the money and then re-sold the seat. Carlo's wife then had to sit next to complete stranger and subsequently didn't renew the next season. So the assumption that the club would "lose" a seat if the owner default is incorrect. The seat would be up for grabs and re-sellable the moment someone defaults. The club is just being lazy..

 

1) This presumably worked because your mate handed over his ST. How does that work if the club doesn't get a chance to seize the ST that the defaulter now has?

 

Take an extreme case simply to illustrate the point. Say we have 15000 ST holders and 5000 ST holders default. But the club cannot get the 5000 tickets back because it has no way of identifying these people (other than through an exhaustive check at the turnstiles which the club currently doesn't do).

 

So does the club re-sell those 5000 tickets for a home FA Cup game against Portsmouth? It can't do that. It would cause chaos inside the ground. Even if we had 250 defaulters - or 100 or 50.

 

I believe, but I'm happy to be PROVED wrong, that once sold the club will find it difficult to re-sell a seat belonging to an ST holder unless they are able to seize the ticket.

 

2) Credit. It is not a credit arrangement. You pay, say, £50 a month so by the time August comes around you'd have paid at least £150 and, if anything, still paying in advance until you get to December when you've paid it off. If the club cannot police this then the fans that pay religiously every month cannot be held responsible.

 

2) Because of 1) above the seat resource is finite for the season. It exists once and once sold has no further value to the club. Therefore the sale of an ST for anything less than the full amount (all instalments paid) is a loss to the club that it has no ability to recoup.

 

I ask you again to look at this from the club's perspective. The club is extending credit to you without a formal credit arrangement which leaves it exposed. From your perspective you are right - as long as you pay the instalments, you are consuming a resource for which you have already paid in advance. I couldn't agree more.

 

But the club can only sell this finite resource once. Therefore the second they send the ST out in the post, they are giving the instalment payer 23 games worth of attendance - or at least they are removing their ability to sell those 23 games to someone else. So until they receive the final payment then they are "out of pocket".

 

This whole "credit" thing is muddying the waters here, this is not a credit arrangement. Credit implies you are getting something and paying for it later, this is NOT credit. Why are people ignoring the fact that season ticket are reverse credit and asking people to pay in advance? Even in installments you are effectively paying in advance...

 

I think that one of the "costs of administering the instalment plan" that the club cites as its reason for withdrawing it, is the policing of defaulters I've described above. So I don't think the credit argument is muddying the waters. I think it is germane.

 

I'm not an apologist for the club by the way. I think they've done the wrong thing here both by withdrawing the instalment plan and by the way they've done it.

 

I'm simply trying to interpret what would make otherwise sensible and successful business people make such an otherwise arbitrary and image-damaging decision.

Edited 2 June, 2010 by saintbletch
typos

[Tom28]

This would of course be the sensible option. I'm sure most people would be happy to pay 10% over six months or 15% over twelve.

 

To not offer it is quite strange really.

 

No, its not strange really. The fact is, people default on payments. The cost is not so much loaded in running these schemes. Its loaded in wasting time and resources going after defaulted payments.

 

I hope we can now move on to moan about something else.

[Scummer]

 

Take an extreme case simply to illustrate the point. Say we have 15000 ST holders and 5000 ST holders default. But the club cannot get the 5000 tickets back because it has no way of identifying these people (other than through an exhaustive check at the turnstiles which the club currently doesn't do).

 

Of course, if the club moved into the modern world and brought in bar code scanners for tickets, this problem would never happen.

[stevegrant]

No, its not strange really. The fact is, people default on payments. The cost is not so much loaded in running these schemes. Its loaded in wasting time and resources going after defaulted payments.

Every year they've run the installment scheme, with the exception of last season, it has been done through an external finance company. As a result, the club get the money up front - albeit with the finance company taking a cut. As part of that cut, it's then their responsibility to chase up late or defaulted payments.

 

Obviously if they want to run it the way they did last season, whereby they take card details from those who want to use the scheme, they then run the risk that they just don't get the money for various reasons.

[JRM]

Again, why are people picking and choosing what they listen to?

 

Who said any of us can't afford it? I can, but I can't afford £323 in one hit in a month I'm flying off for ten days in Turkey when I was told the installment option was still a going concern. I'd say it was a smartsare comment when you don't pay the slightest attention to what people are actually saying. I find it offensive when some people on here are implying that those us caught on the hop by the club's tearing up of the "Fans Charter" somehow "can't afford it"

 

Season tickets are a form of reverse credit. We are paying in ADVANCE for games. Even if you pay in installments you're paying in advance from December onwards when you've paid in full.. Why is it so hard for people to see that?

 

Why are people so fecking arrogant that their answer to the whole problem is, get yourself in debt? The installment plan gave people a budget option, why should people get a credit card to pay for a season ticket when for years they've had an option to pay in smaller (FFS £50 a month is hardly small) installments??

 

And again, no one is saying they can't can't afford to go to football. They are saying they can't afford to pay up to £400 in one hit after the club removed a legitimate payment method with NO NOTICE...

 

The attitude of some people on here has been shameful. They can afford £400 in one hit so **** anyone else who can't...

 

The point is, if the club had told us in January that they were withdrawing this option then we wouldn't be having this conversation. The fact that they have ripped up their "Fans Charter" just one month after the season ended should be the topic of conversation here rather than smug comments about people's ability to find large sums of money at short notice when the club has PROMISED that half season tickets and installment plans would feature in their ticket options...

 

If Lowe had done this people would be up in arms, why is it acceptable because it's Cortese?

 

 

well said. I agree completely, so many smug c*nts on here almost laughing at other fans.

 

the fans charter has been shown to be a waste of time.

[MarkSFC]

There is no need for any finance house to be involved because in essence the club would not need to "borrow" ST monies for anyone who was to pay on installments. The only expense I can envisage is the administration of processing payments manually and chasing any defaulters.

As this is clearly a bit of a disaster on the clubs behalf maybe they can offer a compromise plan. E.G. An upfront fee of say £20 "reserves" your seat. You then can buy your matchday ticket at say £20 BUT only in bundles of 3 games. If by say 3 days before "x" game you havnt bought "your seat" the club reserves the right to sell it for that game.

[derry]

It is possible that the 50,000 or so fans at Wembley have alerted the club to the interest in a successful team whatever the level. Bearing in mind the club, probably expecting to win a lot of matches and top the league after further investment, feel that a reduced number of discounted seats is no bad thing, provided the anticipated success increases the gates at non-discounted prices, giving a higher overall income.

[aintforever]

If the club are worried about defaulters (I dont know why as they could have set it up so most money comes out before a ball is kicked) they could easily have just given renewals a chance to use the payment plan.

 

Face it, now the club have a sugar daddy they don't need to give a **** about the fans. That's why they can chuck 15 grands worth of programmes in a skip on a whim and ban the local paper (some fans only source of news on the club) when the Chairman has a girly strop.

[Teddy Nutkins]

It is possible that the 50,000 or so fans at Wembley have alerted the club to the interest in a successful team whatever the level. Bearing in mind the club, probably expecting to win a lot of matches and top the league after further investment, feel that a reduced number of discounted seats is no bad thing, provided the anticipated success increases the gates at non-discounted prices, giving a higher overall income.

 

 

You may have something there.We all saw what a little success can do for a football club in the JPT Final.I spoke to people who went to their first game since the Premiership days.

 

It is a dangerous game to play though Dave, almost to the point of arrogance.

[The Kraken]

Email back from David Luker, and my response. I'll update if I get a further response, though given the generic nature of the first one I'm not expecting it.

 

 

Dear Dav

 

Thank you for your email. I appreciate and understand the comments you have made.

 

The Club has decided against offering an installment payment option this year due to the increased costs of administering such a scheme.

 

We hope this answers your query.

 

Kind Regards

 

David Luker

 

 

Mr Luker,

 

Many thanks for your response to my previous email. However, your response does not fully answer my query.

 

I have to question why, if the club were not going to offer the instalment payment option this year, was this not conveyed to fans at a much earlier opportunity in order to allow for more time to prepare and save for the required full amount to be paid? The cancellation of the payment plan (despite being in the previous season's fans charter) was announced with literally hours to go before season tickets went on sale.

 

This has put us in a very frustrating position in that we had set our hearts on using the club's payment system to buy our season tickets. I'm sure you will understand that we are unwilling to have to resort to using credit cards for the purchases, therefore we are disappointed to have to re-evaluate our previous intention.

 

It is very sad that, in our period of new ownership, a simple factor of lack of communication and transparency with the fans has led to this situation. I hope that, in future, the club can recognise that there are many of us whose disposable income levels mean we have to budget in advance for club tickets. I understand you have made a decision to remove the instalment system, and that is the club's prerogative; however I'm struggling to find a logical reason why you could not have announced this to the fans some time ago.

 

I look forward to your further response.

 

Best regards,

Dav

 

Edit to say; clearly he used my proper name; Dave and I aren't on THAT intimate terms just yet....

Edited 2 June, 2010 by The Kraken

[Weston Saint]

I am going to apologise but I have not read this thread fully but thought I would make some comments.

 

I agree there are a proportion of the season ticket fan base who are “disappointed” by the late withdrawal of the interest free instalment plan. I can understand that and it will put them in some difficulty. The club should have indicated this at the end of the season at the latest. However we do not know the circumstances which led to this late decision. The suggestion is that it is too expensive for the club. I am prepared to accept that reasoning.

 

When the club was purchased Mr Cortese made it quite clear his remit was to run the club as a viable business. That entailed some cost up front but he was determined to look at all aspects of the business for cost cutting. Season tickets cost last season reflected the dire position the team were in with -10 points, a losing mentality, a division that was not aligned to our expected status and a fan base diminished by the actions of the previous regimes.

 

May cuts and changes behind the scenes have been made during the year since they took control and now it is the time for ticket pricing strategy. The cost of this year’s tickets have increased but the majority still seem to think that is a fair reflection of what we have i.e. one the best stadiums in the division, one of the best teams in the division, one of the highest goal scoring teams in the division and a real anticipation of automatic promotion next season.

 

Some have said that the lack of stage payment plan means they are unable to buy a season ticket. If that is a large minority then just think what that will cost the club by way of administration or outsourcing. Someone has to pay for that. Should that be on the price of the season ticket the majority pay up front and on time?

 

Some say by paying up front that is a form of credit to the club. Do not forget that in return for that payment a substantial discount is given on the match day prices.

 

Quite simply the club have made a painful decision, they will have been aware of that, and it may be that a thousand or so will be unable to renew. However, I anticipate they will still be able to attend some and that the club revenue over the season will not be damaged.

 

It is a business decision and like all decisions there are winners, losers and some unaffected. That is the world we are in.

 

If it makes for a stronger, viable and successful club long term whilst I am sorry for the “losers” by the decision the majority will give their support.

 

The decision may not be poor but the delivery date, without a full explanation from the club on their web site, is an own goal.

Edited 2 June, 2010 by Weston Saint

[stevegrant]

It is a business decision and like all decisions there are winners, losers and some unaffected. That is the world we are in.

Ron, some fair points, but I'm struggling to see who "wins" in this situation. The club will lose a number of season ticket holders solely because of this decision. They may gain season ticket holders elsewhere, but there's surely a higher probability of an existing season ticket holder renewing than someone buying a "new" season ticket.

[stmusicdude]

From the 2 mails from diff people I got suggest that they don't know & have no input to this at all

 

Dear Mark

 

Thank you for your email.

 

I would suspect that the half season ticket was removed to focus the mind on full season tickets, and the excellent savings that can be seen.

 

The booking fee is £3 per telephone call – regardless of the number of games/tickets you purchase.

 

I hope this answers your question

 

Regards

 

David

 

David Luker

Head of Supporter Services

Southampton Football Club

[SFC Forever]

What some people on here seem to forget is that there are people, like me, who are exceedingly short of funds. Some blacklisted and some who can not get a credit card.

 

So telling me how simple the problem is to solve is not going to cheer me up. On top of me is an 11yo girl, a 6yo boy and a 4yo girl who would go occasionally in her brothers place. In an ideal world My whole family would go but the £30 transport costs for every home game makes matters far worse.

 

I am not crying or pleading for help just stating a plain and simple fact.

 

This is now the scenario I have pictured and fought against for a long time. I can see my kids watching other teams on the tv and becoming long distance utd or chelsea supporters as they will no longer be going to SMS.

 

That to me is not a pretty picture but more parents of large families will be feeling the same.

[Weston Saint]

Ron, some fair points, but I'm struggling to see who "wins" in this situation. The club will lose a number of season ticket holders solely because of this decision. They may gain season ticket holders elsewhere, but there's surely a higher probability of an existing season ticket holder renewing than someone buying a "new" season ticket.

Winners- the club who no longer have the cost of administistation/oursource or the fans who pay up front and will not see a levy on the cost of their tickets to offset the administration costs.

 

I pointed out that I consider the club income from this decision will not be affected over the season. That is a formed opinion but I am sure the club factored all this into the decision.

[Arcadian]

I am going to apologise but I have not read this thread fully but thought I would make some comments.

 

I agree there are a proportion of the season ticket fan base who are “disappointed” by the late withdrawal of the interest free instalment plan. I can understand that and it will put them in some difficulty. The club should have indicated this at the end of the season at the latest. However we do not know the circumstances which led to this late decision. The suggestion is that it is too expensive for the club. I am prepared to accept that reasoning.

 

When the club was purchased Mr Cortese made it quite clear his remit was to run the club as a viable business. That entailed some cost up front but he was determined to look at all aspects of the business for cost cutting. Season tickets cost last season reflected the dire position the team were in with -10 points, a losing mentality, a division that was not aligned to our expected status and a fan base diminished by the actions of the previous regimes.

 

May cuts and changes behind the scenes have been made during the year since they took control and now it is the time for ticket pricing strategy. The cost of this year’s tickets have increased but the majority still seem to think that is a fair reflection of what we have i.e. one the best stadiums in the division, one of the best teams in the division, one of the highest goal scoring teams in the division and a real anticipation of automatic promotion next season.

 

Some have said that the lack of stage payment plan means they are unable to buy a season ticket. If that is a large minority then just think what that will cost the club by way of administration or outsourcing. Someone has to pay for that. Should that be on the price of the season ticket the majority pay up front and on time?

 

Some say by paying up front that is a form of credit to the club. Do not forget that in return for that payment a substantial discount is given on the match day prices.

 

Quite simply the club have made a painful decision, they will have been aware of that, and it may be that a thousand or so will be unable to renew. However, I anticipate they will still be able to attend some and that the club revenue over the season will not be damaged.

 

It is a business decision and like all decisions there are winners, losers and some unaffected. That is the world we are in.

 

If it makes for a stronger, viable and successful club long term whilst I am sorry for the “losers” by the decision the majority will give their support.

 

The decision may not be poor but the delivery date, without a full explanation from the club on their web site, is an own goal.

 

Well said. It is a PR mistake but will have been a decision reached based on them reviewing the cost of doing the instalment plan. If the costs are too high then ultimately the club ends up subsidising a proportion of the fans. Add in the cost of defaulters and you can see why they might be keen to get away from this system of payment.

 

A season ticket gives a discount by paying up front. An instalment plan for the season ticket is actually a bit of a contradiction in terms. You either pay up front and get a season ticket or you buy tickets on a match by match basis.

 

I can understand why it has upset some people, it would me if I paid by instalment. But I doubt it is a snap decision by someone to annoy those fans.

 

SFC needs to be run correctly, especially in the current environment.

 

The delivery of the news is all wrong, but the sentiments are not.

[SO16_Saint]

What some people on here seem to forget is that there are people, like me, who are exceedingly short of funds. Some blacklisted and some who can not get a credit card.

 

So telling me how simple the problem is to solve is not going to cheer me up. On top of me is an 11yo girl, a 6yo boy and a 4yo girl who would go occasionally in her brothers place. In an ideal world My whole family would go but the £30 transport costs for every home game makes matters far worse.

 

I am not crying or pleading for help just stating a plain and simple fact.

 

This is now the scenario I have pictured and fought against for a long time. I can see my kids watching other teams on the tv and becoming long distance utd or chelsea supporters as they will no longer be going to SMS.

 

That to me is not a pretty picture but more parents of large families will be feeling the same.

 

Im not disagreeing with you here....

 

But why should SFC take the risk that people will pay for 1/2 installments and then not bother / be able to pay for the remaining installments?

 

I was hoping for the Installment plan, but as it's not there - and i haven't got a spare £400 - I wont be getting a ST.

 

Man up and take it on the chin. If you cant afford it, you cant have it.

 

Not nice, but a fact of life.

 

Yes - they could have given us more time to save the £400 (or whatever it is) - but they didnt, and we couldn't.

 

It's done now, and no amount of b!tching is going to change it - but we will all know for next season and be ready with the reddies in hand...

[Stepgar]

I always believed this line of credit ran like this:

 

Customer: "I want to pay monhtly"

SFC:"Ok can do, Lloyds premium Credit will take your DD"

Customer: "Cool, thanks "

SFC: - Now they apply to Lloyds for the value of the season ticket.

Lloyds - Here you are SFC here is the full value of the season ticket, Thanks for introducing a customer to us.

SFC " No problem thanks for he dosh"

 

The customer now owes Lloyds the money and lloyds have given the whole sum to SFC upfront.

 

No different than buying a sofa or a car on finance. My debt for my sofa belonged to lloyds, not Harveys where i purchased it from.

 

Now it oculd be and I am sure that this has happened that people will have defaulted on their payments. This potentially leads to a loss to Lloyds who in turn dictate to SFC that because of this fact that their costs for setting up this arrangement then has to be sorted so we are passing the losses on to you in admin charges.

 

I can see the metality at this but I do know a few friends are now NOT going to buty season tickets because of this as they simply do not have that kind of desposable income. So the club have made a brave move here, but could it come at a cost?