Attendance and club finances

[1976_Child]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but does anyone have an up to date figure as to the gate needed to breakeven each home game?

 

I think season before last it was about 23,000 for each home game but what with all the cost cutting that figure must have dropped. i can't imagine gates of 15,000 are enough to cover costs?

[Give it to Ron]

Sorry no idea but there was an interesting discussion on Radio Hampshire with David Luker last night.

He said there was no chance of tickets being cut as this would alienate the 10k of season ticket holders who would not renew the next season.

He did say they would try and promote the kids for £2 to fill the stadium more but again there are quite a few junior ST holders who again would not renew.

He said what most of us are saying...until the team wins more games the stadium will be half empty despite anything they try.

Good bloke Mr Luker had some good results from him and he came across very well.

[1976_Child]

Sorry no idea but there was an interesting discussion on Radio Hampshire with David Luker last night.

He said there was no chance of tickets being cut as this would alienate the 10k of season ticket holders who would not renew the next season.

He did say they would try and promote the kids for £2 to fill the stadium more but again there are quite a few junior ST holders who again would not renew.

He said what most of us are saying...until the team wins more games the stadium will be half empty despite anything they try.

Good bloke Mr Luker had some good results from him and he came across very well.

 

sure we season ticket holders would be naffed off if the price was cut but it strikes me a bit wet to say that there is nothing to be done. How about giving ST holders a free Cup game? Or just give them a refund. And I always thought the gig was "kids for a quid" not "kids for two quid" !!

 

Something needs to be done because there is a recession on its way, wages aren't going up but inflation is and we are not winning football games. The net effect is that SMS is more than half empty and the club is teetering on the brink of administration where we would see our stadium being sold off, and probably Marchwood as well. The lads will be training on the common soon. In any other business is the 'product' is not selling you would always try innovative ways to move it. Why not with footie tickets?

[Window Cleaner]

Sorry no idea but there was an interesting discussion on Radio Hampshire with David Luker last night.

He said there was no chance of tickets being cut as this would alienate the 10k of season ticket holders who would not renew the next season.

He did say they would try and promote the kids for £2 to fill the stadium more but again there are quite a few junior ST holders who again would not renew.

He said what most of us are saying...until the team wins more games the stadium will be half empty despite anything they try.

Good bloke Mr Luker had some good results from him and he came across very well.

 

True, the club cannot afford to alienate the season ticket holders. They brassed up when asked and got what so many people seem to think is their divine right-cheap football.

I think on the March Madness it comes to about 16£ a game, same seat and all.A junior/adult pair on the early bird comes to £20 a game for the pair without having to suffer the family enclosure. Cheap tickets were available, if you didn't take them up, then that's your problem not the club's.

[Give it to Ron]

I think the £2 was the local teams that can bring 10 boys and 2 adults for £20 they do this for a few games during the season.

[Window Cleaner]

sure we season ticket holders would be naffed off if the price was cut but it strikes me a bit wet to say that there is nothing to be done. How about giving ST holders a free Cup game? Or just give them a refund. And I always thought the gig was "kids for a quid" not "kids for two quid" !!

 

Something needs to be done because there is a recession on its way, wages aren't going up but inflation is and we are not winning football games. The net effect is that SMS is more than half empty and the club is teetering on the brink of administration where we would see our stadium being sold off, and probably Marchwood as well. The lads will be training on the common soon. In any other business is the 'product' is not selling you would always try innovative ways to move it. Why not with footie tickets?

 

 

Don't be wet man, who's going to buy the stadium and for what? The land isn't worth the asking price and there are no other wealthy sports club in the sector. We don't own all of Marchwood so the administrators can't sell it off.

Anyway training on the Common was good enough for me, why not for them.

[Give it to Ron]

True, the club cannot afford to alienate the season ticket holders. They brassed up when asked and got what so many people seem to think is their divine right-cheap football.

I think on the March Madness it comes to about 16£ a game, same seat and all.A junior/adult pair on the early bird comes to £20 a game for the pair without having to suffer the family enclosure. Cheap tickets were available, if you didn't take them up, then that's your problem not the club's.

 

 

Some of us have been renewing our Adult/Junior ST for years so if that was aimed at me then read the post again.

[Scummer]

I think on the March Madness it comes to about 16£ a game.

 

Yes but those deals were only available to existing season ticket holders. It was a good price for those people, but there was little incentive for people to become new season ticket holders.

[Flyer]

The net effect is that SMS is more than half empty and the club is teetering on the brink of administration where we would see our stadium being sold off,

 

Im not sure selling the stadium would make any money at all, theres only been a couple of years worth of payments on it so the bank/BS would get most of the money.

[Give it to Ron]

Yes but those deals were only available to existing season ticket holders. It was a good price for those people, but there was little incentive for people to become new season ticket holders.

 

We are only getting a walk up crowd(non ST's) of 4-5k at the moment - just wondering if they offered the March madness deal now on a pro rata basis if many would take it up?

Wouldn't **** me off as a ST holder and the club needs money up front now.

[Window Cleaner]

Some of us have been renewing our Adult/Junior ST for years so if that was aimed at me then read the post again.

 

No it wasn't aimed at anyone who doesn't keep on whining about £15 being the right price for on the day tickets. It's £13 at Salisbury FFS.

[Window Cleaner]

We are only getting a walk up crowd(non ST's) of 4-5k at the moment - just wondering if they offered the March madness deal now on a pro rata basis if many would take it up?

Wouldn't **** me off as a ST holder and the club needs money up front now.

 

It would be good but I don't think they could drop the level below the Early Bird price to be honest. You seem reasonable and flexible, others aren't quite as adult.

It's a Catch 22 situation, whatever they do will always alienate somebody who will no doubt use whatever means are at his (or her) disposal to whip up support for an anti-club campaign.

[Give it to Ron]

No it wasn't aimed at anyone who doesn't keep on whining about £15 being the right price for on the day tickets. It's £13 at Salisbury FFS.

 

and £10 at Eastleigh to watch that standard !

As I posted I think the time has come to perhaps reopen the ST offer the March madness or renewable price to all again and see if we can fill a few more seats that way.

Edit

Thats what I meant the Early Bird price as its on a pro-rata basis it would be less outlay now for some and the cheaper price would possibly encourage a few more?

Edited 26 September, 2008 by Give it to Ron

[ItchenRob]

Speaking as a ST holder I would not be in the slightest bit upset if they reduced it to the approximate ST price per game (around £16) if it meant the difference between Saints making progress or not.

[Window Cleaner]

Speaking as a ST holder I would not be in the slightest bit upset if they reduced it to the approximate ST price per game (around £16) if it meant the difference between Saints making progress or not.

 

You don't ,Give it to Ron doesn't mind either but David Luker seems to be saying some would.

Who knows.

[1976_Child]

Im not sure selling the stadium would make any money at all, theres only been a couple of years worth of payments on it so the bank/BS would get most of the money.

 

that was kinda my point! The club goes into administration and the bank needs to raise its collateral against the mortgage - which is the stadium. They will sell it to an investment company, probably in a firesale at a knock-down price. The club will then have to rent the stadium back from the investment company. It has happened before in other clubs. In fact i am pretty sure it happend at Stanford Bridge in the 90s.

 

sorry to be the bringing of bad news but if the club goes into administration - which is looking ever likely without a buyer - then the PLC's assets WILL be sold to pay the debt. It would also be totally legal for the administrator to not honour the existing season tickets as they are a contractual agreement between the PLC and the ST holder, not the administrator and the ST holder. so we could all find our ST worthless. There would be a riot for sure but there is nothing stopping the administrator from doing it.

[Flyer]

that was kinda my point! The club goes into administration and the bank needs to raise its collateral against the mortgage - which is the stadium. They will sell it to an investment company, probably in a firesale at a knock-down price. The club will then have to rent the stadium back from the investment company. It has happened before in other clubs. In fact i am pretty sure it happend at Stanford Bridge in the 90s.

Exactly and the investment company can basically charge what they like too as theres no where else to play except to ground share at Fratton Park.

 

Admin doesnt get rid of the debt either, the footballing and tax debt must be paid in full, its the little man who supplies saints that will lose out.

 

Also, QPR cam out of admin with more debt than when they entered it.

 

I think Saints best hope is to be on the verge of admin so the shares become virtually worthless, then someone comes in and buys the club on the cheap.

 

Its what happened at QPR, Flav could name his price and only paid 1/3rd of the value of the club, the owner had a choice of accepting that or lose everything and go into liquidation.

 

It worked out great for us but its a high stakes game, either a takeover will happen or Saints could cease to exist.

[CLOTH EARS]

Cutting the price of tickets doesn't garauntee bigger gates. The old regime cut prices when they came in and crowds went down from an average of 25k down to an average of 21k. I agree with david Luker that his hands are pretty much tied for this season. BUT I think the club should introduce something next season that rewards those fans that go week in week out. Perhaps if you buy a season ticket you should get as much as 25% discount off of the normal price. so if the match tickets cost £25 then it should average £18.75 for a ST holder, then on topof this chuck in free tickets for the 1st 2 home Cup ties. For those fans that buy tickets on a match to match basis they could get every 6th ticket for a tenner as an incentive to keep going. What do you think?

[1976_Child]

For those fans that buy tickets on a match to match basis they could get every 6th ticket for a tenner as an incentive to keep going. What do you think?

 

This is a good idea. sort of like a loyalty system for members but not ST holders. You get a membership card and present it everytime you buy a ticket. Then after every five tickets you get one free.

 

Innovative things like this would have no down side as there are currently bucket loads of seats available each game so why not give it a go? At the very least it sends a signal that the club appreciates its fan base and wants to give something back

[Gemmel]

that was kinda my point! The club goes into administration and the bank needs to raise its collateral against the mortgage - which is the stadium. They will sell it to an investment company, probably in a firesale at a knock-down price. The club will then have to rent the stadium back from the investment company. It has happened before in other clubs. In fact i am pretty sure it happend at Stanford Bridge in the 90s.

 

sorry to be the bringing of bad news but if the club goes into administration - which is looking ever likely without a buyer - then the PLC's assets WILL be sold to pay the debt. It would also be totally legal for the administrator to not honour the existing season tickets as they are a contractual agreement between the PLC and the ST holder, not the administrator and the ST holder. so we could all find our ST worthless. There would be a riot for sure but there is nothing stopping the administrator from doing it.

 

This where the whole issue of admnistration falls down for Saints, due to the debt on the stadium.

 

The stadium is worth what - 4 or 5 mill ? more for land than anythhing else.

The debt on the stadium is probably somewhere around 18 - 20 million, which technically means it's not our to sell anyway.

 

Selling to someone to lease it back to us doesn't stack up if they have to pay 20million, which means that they would wouldn't see a return for (Taking into consideration interest rates) 30 odd years, when alternatively if they werent borrowing the money to do it and they actually had cash, could stick it in a bank and earn 10%......just doesn't add up.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

I don't understand those "hardcore" fans (season ticket holders) who berate people for not turning up thus depriving the club of revenue, but then complain that if the club now sold cheaper tickets those that have already bought would be annoyed!

 

Maybe the way forward is to reward existing season ticket holders with offers of money off their next year's renewal if you get a mate to buy a reduced price season ticket this year.

[egreog]

Times are hard, but I really am not sure its the cost the has driven people away.........the cost could be cut but frankly I don't think it would make any difference.......even if it was £1 i still wouldn't make the effort to watch the present drivel .......bottom line, there needs to be be a two way relationship and at present my love is conditional on performance, and I don't feel its happening........

[CLOTH EARS]

There are many reasons why our crowds have fallen. Cost IS an issue as everything from fuel to food is rocketing in price, this is bound to have an effect on those ( like me ) who are on lower incomes. The Rupert Lowe issue is also a big factor, But the biggest factor of all is RESULTS paying £26 to watch a losing team full of unproven kids is not appetising for many fans. Unfortunately for me i can only see one outcome for our beloved club.................relegation and administration!

[BadgerBadger]

Sorry no idea but there was an interesting discussion on Radio Hampshire with David Luker last night.

He said there was no chance of tickets being cut as this would alienate the 10k of season ticket holders who would not renew the next season.

He did say they would try and promote the kids for £2 to fill the stadium more but again there are quite a few junior ST holders who again would not renew.

He said what most of us are saying...until the team wins more games the stadium will be half empty despite anything they try.

Good bloke Mr Luker had some good results from him and he came across very well.

 

Now I wouldn't mind at all about people getting cheaper tickets - it was that made the descion to buy a frigging season ticket and I did that for the me and the club.

 

We all go on about it needing to be 'our' club, well there's a good place to start - get bums on seats and I suggest that when things are picking up and the balance sheet is a bit rosey(circa 2018) then a few free cup games for the season ticket holder - woohoo!

[rocknrollman no2]

Surely there can be a solution that pleases us ST holders and hopefully can encourage more people to go to SMS.

Perhaps lower ticket prices could be offered and to keep the balance,ST holders could be given a voucher for the megastore to cover the difference.

Also free home cup games?

We may not even get home draws,so the club would be in a win win situation.

Just a thought.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

that was kinda my point! The club goes into administration and the bank needs to raise its collateral against the mortgage - which is the stadium. They will sell it to an investment company, probably in a firesale at a knock-down price. The club will then have to rent the stadium back from the investment company. It has happened before in other clubs. In fact i am pretty sure it happend at Stanford Bridge in the 90s.

 

sorry to be the bringing of bad news but if the club goes into administration - which is looking ever likely without a buyer - then the PLC's assets WILL be sold to pay the debt. It would also be totally legal for the administrator to not honour the existing season tickets as they are a contractual agreement between the PLC and the ST holder, not the administrator and the ST holder. so we could all find our ST worthless. There would be a riot for sure but there is nothing stopping the administrator from doing it.

 

Well we'd had this discussion before and although I don't claim to be an expert in the field the consensus seemed to be that Season Tickets were deemed a 'Football Debt' by the FA and as such they must be honoured by the Administrator and any future owners . Common sense tells you that to totally alienate your core customer base would be commercial suicide for any business .

[aintforever]

that was kinda my point! The club goes into administration and the bank needs to raise its collateral against the mortgage - which is the stadium. They will sell it to an investment company, probably in a firesale at a knock-down price. The club will then have to rent the stadium back from the investment company. It has happened before in other clubs. In fact i am pretty sure it happend at Stanford Bridge in the 90s.

 

sorry to be the bringing of bad news but if the club goes into administration - which is looking ever likely without a buyer - then the PLC's assets WILL be sold to pay the debt. It would also be totally legal for the administrator to not honour the existing season tickets as they are a contractual agreement between the PLC and the ST holder, not the administrator and the ST holder. so we could all find our ST worthless. There would be a riot for sure but there is nothing stopping the administrator from doing it.

 

What a load of ******, I have already paid for my season ticket - what's the administrator going to do, force me to post it back?

 

 

The administrators job is to keep the company running whilst the debts are paid. Telling the customers to not attend is hardley going to keep it running.

[graemeread1234]

I think we should be happy with 15k average per game from now on until we do better.

[um pahars]

What a load of ******, I have already paid for my season ticket - what's the administrator going to do, force me to post it back?

 

 

The administrators job is to keep the company running whilst the debts are paid. Telling the customers to not attend is hardley going to keep it running.

 

As Chapel End Charlie has correctly pointed out, if the Club were to operate under any future guise then they wold have to honour season tickets. They are a ringfenced football debt that would have to be honoured in order to receive the share in the Football League.

[lordswoodsaints]

i dont mind if the club reduce prices this season to fill the stadium but it will give me no incentive next season to renew my season tickets,i will just pay week by week and perhaps i might get a few perks during the season.

i would still attend all home games so the club is virtually guaranteed my money,thats if there is still a club to support.

[SP Saint]

Fear not because lowe and wilde must be working on planning permission for Jacksons farm. That is the main reason they have teamed up after all.

 

If so they have a vested interest in the club doing badly. When the shares reach rock bottom they can buy them all up and enjoy 100% of the spoils from the development.

 

Perhaps they don't want to do anything imaginative to fill the ground?

[ottery st mary]

If so they have a vested interest in the club doing badly. When the shares reach rock bottom they can buy them all up and enjoy 100% of the spoils from the development.

 

Perhaps they don't want to do anything imaginative to fill the ground?

 

This is in the mode that Flyer QPR supported posted above on how QPR was bought out at a rock bottom price. The third party ( waiting in the wings for the wheels to fall off) for Lowey/Askham etc and Wildey is part of the current team and buy the club and everthing associated with it for peanuts.

I wondered about the poor results/decision making etc. I must admit I don't know enough about the finances and the reverse takocer but it sounds similar to QPR and suggests to me that our direction is planned for their own ulterior motives.

Just my curiosity and personal opinion.

[redkeith]

Last year the club tried a scheme where Season Ticket Holders got shop vouchers for bringing someone that hadn't been for a few years, and was not on the database.

 

How about a variation on the old scheme: -

 

If a season ticket holder gets tickets for someone who hasn't been this season, at a reduced price (£10/15) the season ticket holder gets a £5 credit on his ticket account.

 

This could then be used for cup games, or taken off the price of next years season ticket, giving a bit of encouragement to come back for more suffering next year.

[SP Saint]

This is in the mode that Flyer QPR supported posted above on how QPR was bought out at a rock bottom price. The third party ( waiting in the wings for the wheels to fall off) for Lowey/Askham etc and Wildey is part of the current team and buy the club and everthing associated with it for peanuts.

I wondered about the poor results/decision making etc. I must admit I don't know enough about the finances and the reverse takocer but it sounds similar to QPR and suggests to me that our direction is planned for their own ulterior motives.

Just my curiosity and personal opinion.

 

1. Lowe and Wilde who supposedly weren't even on speaking terms last year team up together.

 

2. Pearson who was becoming a popular manager was replaced by a complete unknown.

 

3. Absolutely no incentives are being offered to help fill the ground by the two astute businessmen in control.

 

It makes me wonder what their plan is because I'm sure they have one.

[ottery st mary]

1. Lowe and Wilde who supposedly weren't even on speaking terms last year team up together.

 

2. Pearson who was becoming a popular manager was replaced by a complete unknown.

 

3. Absolutely no incentives are being offered to help fill the ground by the two astute businessmen in control.

 

It makes me wonder what their plan is because I'm sure they have one.

 

The problem is that flyers lot at Loftus Road took a lot of billionaires in one fowl swoop...greedy buggers. I still think Lowey has some wedge in his little piggy bank under his bed and will save us when he sees the window of opportunity.. I wonder what he will do with Wildey when he has finished using him.... Oh for the days of Bates, Corbett and the like....Always look forward they say.

[hamster]

Times are hard, but I really am not sure its the cost the has driven people away.........

 

Have to agree, that (performance) is a major factor for the majority in my experience.

I have over the last couple of seasons, had free tickets at my disposal on quite a few occasions. I used to phone around and let mates take turns, but it had gotten to the point last season where I struggled to get rid of them

I don't even bother now, as it was becoming a chore.

[Snowballs2]

1. Lowe and Wilde who supposedly weren't even on speaking terms last year team up together.

 

2. Pearson who was becoming a popular manager was replaced by a complete unknown.

 

3. Absolutely no incentives are being offered to help fill the ground by the two astute businessmen in control.

 

It makes me wonder what their plan is because I'm sure they have one.

 

 

Administration then they can buy us cheaply

[SP Saint]

Administration then they can buy us cheaply

 

It becomes a bit of a lottery from their perspective if they wait that long though. They could face competition - especially if Jackson's Farm does look like it's worth something. I have a feeling that buying all the shares just before a total collapse might be their route forwards.