The Israeli Boarding of Ships

[Gingeletiss]

Looking at the footage, I must be in the minority

 

You're not, I agree with your version.

 

as it looks to me as if the so called aide people were the aggressors, I appreciate that what the Israelis did may have seemed provocative but they must have had sound reason? Was there anything on board that shouldn't have been?

 

I am not interested in the politics of it all so excuse me if I just see it at face value.

 

When the commandos boarded the ship, the aide crew should have just surrendered. It looks to me as if they were prepared for aggression and I am not surprised that the Israelis opened fire when their countrymen were being battered to death with iron bars. They did not open fire until their countrymen were trying to be bludgeoned to death by a bloodthirsty so called aide crew.

 

They are a bad as each other from what I've seen on the footage but the aide crew were far from innocent in all of this. Some of those pictures were quite disturbing and I would think that most humans would have reacted in a similar fashion if they had seen their friends/countrymen being beaten to death...it was do or die.....sink or swim, dog eat dog, fight or flight....however you want to put it, the Israelis were backed into a corner and shooting became a necessary evil.

 

I'm sure if the aide crew had of been able to take the guns off the Israelis then they would have used them,

 

According to reports, that is exactly what happened. A gun was taken from one of the soldiers, and he was shot with it. I stress, this is only one report!

they were not peaceful at all, as the footage suggests, they were quite prepared to use force.

 

The whole situation stinks and there is more to this than meets the eye. Mind you, I was once told that the Israeli forces were one of the best in the world, on that footage, I tend to disagree, what a total balls up, it looked so amateur and lacking in preparation.

 

Let's hope the truth is outed in all of this as something just isn't right about it all.

 

Just to point out to all you 'do gooders', the group who organised this flotilla of 'humanitarian aid', is a banned terrorised group, who are affiliated with Hamas, and who also decry the right for Israel to exist. They got exactly the respose they wanted, they refused the invitation to dock in Egypt or Israel, to offload their 'aid'. They were hell bent on breaking the blockade, by their own admittance. What were the Israelis supposed to do?

 

Ask yourselves this, if Poopy hated Southampton so much, that they were prepared to fire rockets into our city centre, and send suicide bombers to blow up buses with kids on etc, would you want to protect yourself?

Edited 2 June, 2010 by Gingeletiss

[OldNick]

Just to point out to all you 'do gooders', the group who organised this flotilla of 'humanitarian aid', is a banned terrorised group, who are affiliated with Hamas, and who also decry the right for Israel to exist. They got exactly the respose they wanted, they refused the invitation to dock in Egypt or Israel, to offload their 'aid'. They were hell bet on breaking the blockade, by their own admittance. What were the Israelis supposed to do?

 

Ask yourselves this, if Poopy hated Southampton so much, that they were prepared to fire rockets into our city centre, and send suicide bombers to blow up buses with kids on etc, would you want to protect yourself?

Ginge, who call them a terrorist group? Hamas are as far as Im aware fighting for their homelands freedom, when Al Queda approached them they didnt want to know. To a degree i dont want Israel to exist, they are squatters and have no real rights to the area they have imposed themselves on.

If they stopped stealing land by building on areas that are not theirs and stopped with their aggression at the Palestinians then Im sure a lot of the rockets would not be launched. The US are their protectors and until they show an even hand and stopped worrying about the Jewish vote the area would have a better chance of settling down. if Syria used US Passports to do a assassination then it would be whipped up andtheir forces would be on the border itching to fight . I only ask for fairness in the teatment. It will be a sore forever unless something radical is done and one thing is for certain Israel will never be able to stop a major atrocity happening if they don't do something.

[jeff leopard]

Ask yourselves this, if Poopy hated Southampton so much, that they were prepared to fire rockets into our city centre, and send suicide bombers to blow up buses with kids on etc, would you want to protect yourself?

 

This hypothetical question is meaningless without the precursor that 60 years ago Southampton read somewhere that Portsmouth belonged to them, so they invaded the city, cut it off from the mainland (sounds appealing I know), squeezed all the residents into a tiny strip of land and then systematically committed acts of genocide against them until the rest of the country (apart from London) despised Southampton. Now ask yourself, why are they firing rockets/blowing up buses? How is retaliating with acts of council sponsored terrorism going to do anything but make the situation much worse?

[OldNick]

over the next couple of days, first person accounts from those on board the ships are going to start emerging and I believe they will all be along the same lines - the israeli's used grenades as they boarded the ship and then open fire seconds later. these aren't all hard-line political activists, but include very well respected member of european parilments and highly celebrated authors and journalists.

 

the "impartial" investigation from the Israeli's will of course say the exact opposite.

 

 

 

serious questions for you - how have our nuclear weapons deterred Iran/North Korea from developing their own weapons? my answer would be, not one little bit.

 

do you honestly think the Iranian/North Korean leaders will be deterred from using them because we have trident? my thoughts, no. i doubt these people will lose any sleep if millions of their own citizens die in the retailiation.

 

the real reason for wanting to keep Trident? to be part of the nuclear 'boys club'. As many posters on here have illustrated time and time again, the British still haven't come to terms with being a small to middling power on the world stage, classic behavior in post-empirical nations. but hey, i hug trees and make out with badgers.

The nuclear deterrent was most effective when the cold war was at its height and did its job. Now? We do need nuclear weapons but there are few areas you can lob 1 without it effecting allies or third parties who may well be armed with them as well. That is why we cant do Irans plants as the cloud could get to China. The US will give the green light to Israel to do them again in time.

In 20 years the world will have changed again, China will like India be flexing its muscles and perhaps not just financially, therefore you need ultimate force

[jeff leopard]

In 20 years the world will have changed again, China will like India be flexing its muscles and perhaps not just financially, therefore you need ultimate force

 

We don’t know what’s around the corner and the political map will keep changing. But as I see it, we won’t go back to another cold war because China and India’s growth and stability are so dependent on trading with the rest of the world. Nuke London or Tokyo and the world economy will collapse and everyone will be phucked. As I see it, the real risk is of N Korea nuking S Korea, Iran nuking Israel or visa versa, maybe even India and Pakistan going toe-to-toe in nuclear combat. In all these cases, our trident submarines will make no difference at all.

 

then at home, the tree huggers are sure we have no use for a credible armed force/nuclear deterent

 

Here’s a hypothetical situation for you, just imagine there is a global recession and the British economy is screwed. It comes down to a simple choice, either we have a credible armed force, or we keep shelling out billions on trident. It’s one or the other. Would you be willing to let go of your submarine and go and work on a cross channel ferry instead, for the good of the armed forces?

[doubleonothing]

Would you be willing to let go of your submarine and go and work on a cross channel ferry instead, for the good of the armed forces?

 

Unless he went to college and got the necessary qualifications he would be unable to as Royal Navy qualifications are not recognised by the MCA.

[landford.saint]

How the **** do they get away with it ? As someone else said earlier any other country did it there would be outrage. They cant keep playing the "Holocaust" card forever.

Israel is a "country" built by ethnic cleansing and terrorism.

I am no Islamic supporter but you can see why the Arabs are so angry at the West for propping up such an illegal state.

 

If the Isle of Wight started mortaring the main land, sent suicide bombers into Southampton and London and was basically a armed training camp of persons who have vowed to destroy britain and all its population, then the British Public and Governent would have a different opinion. Now I dont agree with the tactics or attitude of the Israeli Government, but I dont know how I would react or feel in these circumstances.

[OldNick]

If the Isle of Wight started mortaring the main land, sent suicide bombers into Southampton and London and was basically a armed training camp of persons who have vowed to destroy britain and all its population, then the British Public and Governent would have a different opinion. Now I dont agree with the tactics or attitude of the Israeli Government, but I dont know how I would react or feel in these circumstances.

of course if we had pushed them out of mainland UK into less fruitful areas and also stopped a large amount of their supplies coming in , then I suspect we would understand why they were doing it and do something about it.

The IRA thrived due to Noraid and the support of the US

[landford.saint]

of course if we had pushed them out of mainland UK into less fruitful areas and also stopped a large amount of their supplies coming in , then I suspect we would understand why they were doing it and do something about it.

The IRA thrived due to Noraid and the support of the US

 

The 'Irish Troubles' as they were called only went back 400 years or so, the Israeli/Palistinian 'troubles' go back 4000 years to the times of Abraham. The recent forcible movement of the Palistinians from that area is just one in a numerous 're-adjustment' of the controlling resident population none of whom have had a good track record including the British Occupying forces.

I agree totally that sponsership and support overtly or covertly by other nations of both sides only intensifies the servity and length of this dispute. It has and will be a war in which only hatred for each other is a constant.... Now if all supplies were cut off to all sides, how it would develope I dont know....

[Gingeletiss]

of course if we had pushed them out of mainland UK into less fruitful areas and also stopped a large amount of their supplies coming in , then I suspect we would understand why they were doing it and do something about it.

The IRA thrived due to Noraid and the support of the US

 

With respect nick, how far back do you want to go, to determine who's entitled to what? The fact is, they and the surrounding country's don't want peace, they want the annihilation of Israel, again, this is Biblical. If Israel was a barren desert, do you still think there would be problems?. I'm not saying that all things Israel is right and just, just that there is a second side to this, that many on here are failing to see.

[Seaford Saint]

With respect nick, how far back do you want to go, to determine who's entitled to what? The fact is, they and the surrounding country's don't want peace, they want the annihilation of Israel, again, this is Biblical. If Israel was a barren desert, do you still think there would be problems?. I'm not saying that all things Israel is right and just, just that there is a second side to this, that many on here are failing to see.

 

Come on then give me the second side?

[Thedelldays]

We don’t know what’s around the corner and the political map will keep changing. But as I see it, we won’t go back to another cold war because China and India’s growth and stability are so dependent on trading with the rest of the world. Nuke London or Tokyo and the world economy will collapse and everyone will be phucked. As I see it, the real risk is of N Korea nuking S Korea, Iran nuking Israel or visa versa, maybe even India and Pakistan going toe-to-toe in nuclear combat. In all these cases, our trident submarines will make no difference at all.

 

 

 

Here’s a hypothetical situation for you, just imagine there is a global recession and the British economy is screwed. It comes down to a simple choice, either we have a credible armed force, or we keep shelling out billions on trident. It’s one or the other. Would you be willing to let go of your submarine and go and work on a cross channel ferry instead, for the good of the armed forces?

 

well, if one country fancied its chances at us then it will KNOW that a submarine is constantly on patrol ready to rain down multipule missiles with multiple warheads...

 

just to say "it wont make a difference" is naive at best

[Gingeletiss]

Come on then give me the second side?

 

I'm not about to give you a history lesson, it is there for you to research. This, as has already been pointed out, goes back to pre Biblical times. The modern version is that the displaced Jews of Europe, were dumped there after the second world war. They as a people, created a country out of a desert, a piece of land frequented by nomads. They have been under attack ever since, by the Arab country's surrounding them. In all cases, they have been the defender, not the aggressor, even now, they are only defending themselves. All these countrys don't want to beat them, they want to annihilate them, to wipe them from the face of the Earth, the Israelis in return, just want peace.

[OldNick]

With respect nick, how far back do you want to go, to determine who's entitled to what? The fact is, they and the surrounding country's don't want peace, they want the annihilation of Israel, again, this is Biblical. If Israel was a barren desert, do you still think there would be problems?. I'm not saying that all things Israel is right and just, just that there is a second side to this, that many on here are failing to see.

To me the Israelis are treating the world as Pompey have the footballing world, their rules legal or not they plough their way through, they have the US protecting them and so seem fireproof.It is not right and the settlements that are spreading will only make all the tensions rise.

I obviously dont know all the history and each and every case but all my life the Palistians have had a raw deal IMO. Our press has demonised the Arabs (rightly or wrongly)

[OldNick]

All these countrys don't want to beat them, they want to annihilate them, to wipe them from the face of the Earth, the Israelis in return, just want peace.

if countries want to annihilate them , then they should be able to defend themselves. Do not confuse defending with attacking a ship in international waters.

The Israelis want peace in their terms only. If they were intent on that they would leave the occupied territories

[Viking Warrior]

Your being a bit naive NickH

 

5 of the ships went to the port without any problem its this one ship that clearly set out to provocate the israelis. Thos on board new exactly what they were doing . They are not innocents in this. And it annoys me when I hear all the families of the brits whinging on about their loved ones onboard.

especially the one from Dundee . He didnt have to go but he chose to but he would have known the risk to himself knowing full well what they were doing was going to provoke the israeli's . if you poke the bee hivedon't be suprised if you get stung.

 

I don't have a great deal of time for the antics of the israeli's and I still have the pictorial record of my dad being out there with the paras' and losing five of his mates who were butchered by the israelis while they slept. My dad was fortunate as it was his section that was on patrol but it was his other section that got hit. a few hours later and it would have been him and then I wouldnt be here today.

 

Its not about taken oneside or the other because both sides will belive their version of events by ignoring the truth.

[Gingeletiss]

if countries want to annihilate them , then they should be able to defend themselves. Do not confuse defending with attacking a ship in international waters.

The Israelis want peace in their terms only. If they were intent on that they would leave the occupied territories

 

So nick, in your world, we would have to withdraw from Scotland, Wales, N Ireland, Falklands, etc etc.

 

As for the ship. These people were warned that they would not be allowed to break the blockade. There was repeated warnings given over the radio to this effect. Those leading these 'Aid Workers' (600+), refused to agree the use of either Egyptian ports, or Israeli ports, they were hell bent on confrontation.

 

So tell me nick, what were the Israelis supposed to do. In my book, they were defending themselves. It was only on the boat with mainly Turkish activists, many of whom were themselves of Palestinian decent, that trouble occurred.

 

Look at the footage from the small vessel alongside. It clearly shows the Commandos abseiling down onto the deck, then being attacked by people with bars etc. One was thrown from the deck, one was shot with his own gun. What would you have them do nick? Can we even conceive what the problems are out there. Are we in any position to lecture them on how to conduct themselves, when we as a nation, interfere in affairs all over the world.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

The modern version is that the displaced Jews of Europe, were dumped there after the second world war. They as a people, created a country out of a desert.

 

"dumped" there or chose "there", Isreal have been 'compensated' for that displacement, part of which has allowed them to become the super power they are, they could have created a country in less hostile a region.

[Wiltshire Saint]

So nick, in your world, we would have to withdraw from Scotland, Wales, N Ireland, Falklands, etc etc.

 

What a ridiculous thing to say. We all know you're an idiot, there's no need to provide even more evidence. How is nickh saying that Israel should withdraw from occupied territories in order to gain peace the same as him saying the English should get of Wales? What a complete spanner you are.

[Gingeletiss]

"dumped" there or chose "there", Isreal have been 'compensated' for that displacement, part of which has allowed them to become the super power they are, they could have created a country in less hostile a region.

 

Like where? Historically, they had a right to that land. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. The land they were 'dumped on' was barren desert. They like the Palestinians and Arabs, have many important religious monuments scattered over that land, this alone should tell you as to their right to be there!

[INFLUENCED.COM]

I have read that in the late 1930's plans were to transfer European Jews to the French owned Madagascar and if I recall correctly the British had direct involvement with this as we controlled the seas

[landford.saint]

the problem is in some ways both have historical rights over this land. In fact both are (if you believe Biblical accounts) descended from Abraham. So in effect we have the unsolveable problem, whilst either/or both insist on a military solution to the problems. Both claim provaction, both claim defense of homeland. rather You than me solve this one.

[OldNick]

So nick, in your world, we would have to withdraw from Scotland, Wales, N Ireland, Falklands, etc etc.

 

As for the ship. These people were warned that they would not be allowed to break the blockade. There was repeated warnings given over the radio to this effect. Those leading these 'Aid Workers' (600+), refused to agree the use of either Egyptian ports, or Israeli ports, they were hell bent on confrontation.

 

So tell me nick, what were the Israelis supposed to do. In my book, they were defending themselves. It was only on the boat with mainly Turkish activists, many of whom were themselves of Palestinian decent, that trouble occurred.

 

Look at the footage from the small vessel alongside. It clearly shows the Commandos abseiling down onto the deck, then being attacked by people with bars etc. One was thrown from the deck, one was shot with his own gun. What would you have them do nick? Can we even conceive what the problems are out there. Are we in any position to lecture them on how to conduct themselves, when we as a nation, interfere in affairs all over the world.

If and when the ship entered Israels international waters then they had a right to take the boat over. The Turks i would have thought can easily say what the Israelis are saying, by using the iron bars, that they were defending themselves. If I was on a boat and the Israeli special forces were absailing down i would be in fear of my life and would look to either surrender or defend myself with anything to hand. They did not have kalashnikovs.

I dont think Britain can dictate, but it is the world who are up in arms and only the US being an allie is saving them.

Defend them if you wish, but IMO on this occasion I think that Israel is totally out of order.

Im not a liberal but the situation out there is never going to be rectified by actions like this and it is about time Israel actually became pro-active in getting things sorted.

In time as the Lebanon conflict has shown, they will be hard pressed to win battles as their opponents become better equipped. Iran will help quietly and I dearly hope that their nuclear capibility does not become of any note

[hutch]

This wasn't an aid convoy. It was a publicity stunt.

 

The first "survivor" interview I saw on TV was a pretty young woman with a baby in a pushchair, who were apparently only metres from the fighting on the boat. Great PR for the anti-Israeli lobby. Why was she on board? And c. 600 multi-national activists on an aid ship?

 

I meet a lot of aid workers in my travels around Africa. They don't carry iron bars, stun grenades or firearms.

 

The Israeli's were set up, and walked right into it.

 

I am NOT an Israeli sympathiser, and work with Palestinians every day.

[Thedelldays]

if countries want to annihilate them , then they should be able to defend themselves. Do not confuse defending with attacking a ship in international waters.

The Israelis want peace in their terms only. If they were intent on that they would leave the occupied territories

"international waters" dont really mean anything

 

we could blow a ship up in the name of national security in the middle of the altantic...if the evidence etc lead us to that

[doubleonothing]

International waters do mean quite a lot but it depends in what context you are reffering. If you mean in terms of "hot pursuit" then you are effectivly correct. However when it comes to economic terms etc it is quite relevant but then we are moving into the realms of EEZ's and continental shelves.

 

Something which maybe of interest to you all though is that the Israeli "attack" may in fact be legal. The following link highlights this. And before anyone claims this is from a Jewish paper or from an Israeli sympathetic paper it is not. It is from Lloyd's List which is one of the most respected nautical publications around. The views expressed in the article are from Maritime Law experts.

 

http://www.lloydslist.com/ll/sector/ship-operations/article169992.ece

[Gingeletiss]

If and when the ship entered Israels international waters then they had a right to take the boat over. The Turks i would have thought can easily say what the Israelis are saying, by using the iron bars, that they were defending themselves. If I was on a boat and the Israeli special forces were absailing down i would be in fear of my life and would look to either surrender or defend myself with anything to hand. They did not have kalashnikovs.

I dont think Britain can dictate, but it is the world who are up in arms and only the US being an allie is saving them.

Defend them if you wish, but IMO on this occasion I think that Israel is totally out of order.

Im not a liberal but the situation out there is never going to be rectified by actions like this and it is about time Israel actually became pro-active in getting things sorted.

In time as the Lebanon conflict has shown, they will be hard pressed to win battles as their opponents become better equipped. Iran will help quietly and I dearly hope that their nuclear capibility does not become of any note

 

nick....simple question, please answer. Hypothetically if you were surrounded by lots of people, who had sworn, to not only beat you up, but to destroy your house, and wipe you and your family from the face of the earth. How would you feel, how would you react to this?

[Redondo Saint]

To me the Israelis are treating the world as Pompey have the footballing world, their rules legal or not they plough their way through, they have the US protecting them and so seem fireproof.It is not right and the settlements that are spreading will only make all the tensions rise.

I obviously dont know all the history and each and every case but all my life the Palistians have had a raw deal IMO. Our press has demonised the Arabs (rightly or wrongly)

 

Actually the BBC and some of the papers have given preference to the Palestinians for many years.

[OldNick]

nick....simple question, please answer. Hypothetically if you were surrounded by lots of people, who had sworn, to not only beat you up, but to destroy your house, and wipe you and your family from the face of the earth. How would you feel, how would you react to this?

Cant you remember the days of my supporting Burley Lol

Surely the same arguement could be used by both sides.

I have been sympathetic for most of my life to Israel but in the last few years I have watched them go against reasonable action, and so I have lost much respect for their 'plight'

[OldNick]

Actually the BBC and some of the papers have given preference to the Palestinians for many years.

Not many and the ones I have read not so.You living in the US could not say so.

[Redondo Saint]

Not many and the ones I have read not so.You living in the US could not say so.

 

BBC America and papers such as the Independent and Guardian (on-line) have formed my opinion.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

nick....simple question, please answer. Hypothetically if you were surrounded by lots of people, who had sworn, to not only beat you up, but to destroy your house, and wipe you and your family from the face of the earth. How would you feel, how would you react to this?

 

A similar question could be asked....if the leader of a group of people stated that those of whom he leads will fight with another country against your own, what would you do ? would you want those people out of your country ? would you want those people held who support this leader ? it is therefore, somewhat hypocritical of this state to try and justify certain actions because of the threat that exists.

Every action has a reaction so sadly the cycle continues.

[dubai_phil]

The 32 posts on this page so far show simply and clearly why this issue can never be resolved.

 

Everybody has a valid opinion, everybody is entrenched in "the rights or wrongs of the CURRENT position"

 

The Israelis will NEVER have peace as long as they occupy lands claimed by the Arabs. The Arabs will never be at peace while the Israelis treat them as second class citizens and pull stunts like the invasion of Gaza.

 

Seeking JUSTIFICATION for each set of problems is why it fails.

 

The SIMPLE fact is that TWO sets of people wish to live in the same place. Each set is mutually exclusive. One set all die or one set all live, it will NEVER stop.

 

UNLESS both sides accept that each has the right to exist and each side agree to an equitable sharing out of the available land, natural resources and security.

 

Two states in one = failure. One or the other will eventually be wiped off the face of this planet, and unless pro-Israelis like Gingerletiss or Pro-Arabs (in this example nickh) understand this and try and argue for ONE side you are adding fuel to the fire.

 

And trust me WHEN it finally goes up, every damned one of us and our kids will be paying for it with the revenge attacks world wide.

 

There IS a solution it is - STFU the lot of you and divide the place up

 

Which is why World War 3 has crept up on you and why you get blown up on the Underground

[Barney Trubble]

Actually the BBC and some of the papers have given preference to the Palestinians for many years.

 

I have noticed this too, the BBC seems especially one sided in how it reports the middle-east issues. There seems to be a lot of cherry-picking of the best propaganda for the Palestinian cause and the exact opposite for the Israeli cause.

[Avenue Saint]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGCCcI70LPg&feature=related

 

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2009/11/16/18628874.php

Edited 7 June, 2010 by Avenue Saint