The Israeli Boarding of Ships

[Viking Warrior]

I have been reading about the iraelis boarding supposed humanitarian aide to Gaza

 

There will be claims and counter claims re the incident on board.

However what I cannnot understand is if this was a humanatarian act and the ship was carrying loads of cement, why was it carrying 600 turkish people? This seems really odd unless it was people trafficing exercise using the guise of humanitarium aide as a rue to transport people illegally.

 

Anyway it just seems odd that this boat is carrying cement and 600 turks plus the crew

[SuperMikey]

It is odd, but did the Israeli forces really need to come on board and start shooting people? 9/10 reports are saying that the Israeli boarders started shooting first, then the aid workers retaliated, resulting in aid worker casualties and fatalities. Surely there were other ways of preventing the aid reaching the Gaza Strip short of a boarding of the ship though, what about some kind of boat-blockade?

[Amesbury Saint]

. Surely there were other ways of preventing the aid reaching the Gaza Strip short of a boarding of the ship though, what about some kind of boat-blockade?

 

I suspose they could have just sunk it.

[Thedelldays]

Hmmm agressive act towards a member of NATO..

 

I guess it will be swept under the carpet

[doubleonothing]

It is an interesting one.

 

The only means that a merchant ship can take to repel borders (legally) is the use of high pressure fire hoses (with the option of an in-line inductor) as well as various sound powered means such as the Electronic Long Range Accoustic Device (ELRAD). These should be the only means used to prevent borders. If under attack from pirates they should have not fought back but instaed secured themselves in the vessels secure room and issued the appropriate distress call. However that is procedure based, let's put that to one side.

 

Now as it happened in International Waters it gets interesting. If it had happened inside 12 miles of the Isralie coast it would be within Israel's territorial waters and as such the vessel places itself within the juristiction of that coastal state. They could claim "Innocent Passage" but as Israel has imposed a blockade they would be unable to claim legitimate "Innocent Passage". UNCLOS defines Innocent Passage as a passage that does not threaten or use force against a state or breaches ciminal law of that state or carry out any form of military action. The vessels therefore cannot claim this inside territorial waters.

 

However as the incident occured 40 miles out to sea this does not apply. In the event of an incident on the highseas criminal jurisdiction lies only with the flag state or the the state of which a person is a national. By the looks of it all are linked to Turkey. If the incident had occured in Israel's waters and then moved to the high seas, Isreal could pursue and take action by "hot pursuit". This right would only end if the vessels entered the waters of it's flag state or another 3rd state.

 

In other words looking at it, Israel had no right to do what they have done. Unless they can conclusivly prove (as they are claiming) they were attacked first, in which case they have the right to defend themselves. It does get more complicated when it comes to being arrested etc.

 

Could develop quite significantly from here.

Edited 31 May, 2010 by doubleonothing

[dune]

You've got to respect Israel for the way they take unilateral action and how they play christendom against Islamic states.

[JackFrost]

LOL If it had been anyone else barring us or the Amercians it would have been called "piracy" by now.

[dune]

LOL If it had been anyone else barring us or the Amercians it would have been called "piracy" by now.

 

They've got nukes, allegedly. So they are untouchable just like North Korea are. Oh and they pay bribes to US senators.

[manji]

How the **** do they get away with it ? As someone else said earlier any other country did it there would be outrage. They cant keep playing the "Holocaust" card forever.

Israel is a "country" built by ethnic cleansing and terrorism.

I am no Islamic supporter but you can see why the Arabs are so angry at the West for propping up such an illegal state.

[OldNick]

You've got to respect Israel for the way they take unilateral action and how they play christendom against Islamic states.

it is time that Israel was called to task. Their actions in many ways are why the world is in such a mess, especially the middle east and what that has done to all our lives

[St Landrew]

How the **** do they get away with it ? As someone else said earlier any other country did it there would be outrage. They cant keep playing the "Holocaust" card forever.

Israel is a "country" built by ethnic cleansing and terrorism.

I am no Islamic supporter but you can see why the Arabs are so angry at the West for propping up such an illegal state.

 

Completely agree.

[manji]

They've got nukes, allegedly. So they are untouchable just like North Korea are. Oh and they pay bribes to US senators.

and British MPs......If you havnt seen this documentry already I am sure you can get it off Youtube

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/episode-guide/series-42/episode-1

[JackFrost]

How the **** do they get away with it ? As someone else said earlier any other country did it there would be outrage. They cant keep playing the "Holocaust" card forever.

Israel is a "country" built by ethnic cleansing and terrorism.

I am no Islamic supporter but you can see why the Arabs are so angry at the West for propping up such an illegal state.

 

The irony is one of the people on board the boat was a Holocaust survivor. I'm pretty sure all the countries in the Arabian Peninsular refuse to recognise Israel.

[Viking Warrior]

I have no issue if they were carrying food etc

 

but 600 turks, what is that all about unless they were going to build new houses , roads etc.

 

So what are the views of the boat carrying 600 turks?

[manji]

Hmmm agressive act towards a member of NATO..

 

I guess it will be swept under the carpet

Wouldnt be the first time they have done that either i.e. the attack on the USS Liberty in 1967.Killed 34 and wounded 171 U.S. Sailors. Initially they tried to blame The Egyptians then it was covered up,even by the U.S.

[Hatch]

I work with and for Israelis, the rest of the world can condemn them as much as they like,.

They don't give a f.uck.

They honestly feel they can do what the hell they want, whenever they want, and dont see any problem with that.

[OldNick]

I work with and for Israelis, the rest of the world can condemn them as much as they like,.

They don't give a f.uck.

They honestly feel they can do what the hell they want, whenever they want, and dont see any problem with that.

Funny that Pompey had an Israili manager who thought the same.

 

Seriously though (or perhaps not) they know the US support them and so can do so, Obama gave the impression he would nit be quite so easy on them. We will see now what he is made of.

[dune]

Wouldnt be the first time they have done that either i.e. the attack on the USS Liberty in 1967.Killed 34 and wounded 171 U.S. Sailors. Initially they tried to blame The Egyptians then it was covered up,even by the U.S.

 

And then there's 9/11, Princess Diana, and 7/7. All three acts have mossad written all over them.

[Gemmel]

How the **** do they get away with it ? As someone else said earlier any other country did it there would be outrage. They cant keep playing the "Holocaust" card forever.

Israel is a "country" built by ethnic cleansing and terrorism.

I am no Islamic supporter but you can see why the Arabs are so angry at the West for propping up such an illegal state.

 

 

Now I'm stuck.

 

Mods - what happens when you agree with one of manji's posts??

[dune]

what happens when you agree with one of manji's posts??

 

You become a Lowe Luvvie.

[manji]

You become a Lowe Luvvie.

Thats history. I am now a Cortese Stormtrooper (not quite as catchy I must admit).

[Saint in Paradise]

I work with and for Israelis, the rest of the world can condemn them as much as they like,.

They don't give a f.uck.

They honestly feel they can do what the hell they want, whenever they want, and dont see any problem with that.

 

Be very careful or you will be accused of being anti-semitic, this accusation is trotted out quite a lot

when someone says something Israel doesn't like.

 

I am being serious for once hence no smilies.

[jeff leopard]

Another shocking act of terrorism by the most dangerous rogue state on earth. How do they keep getting away with it, when is America going to draw the line?

 

Hmmm agressive act towards a member of NATO..

 

I guess it will be swept under the carpet

 

funny you say that, i've just been reading about the sinking of the USS Liberty by the Israeli's during the six day war - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

[Saint Without a Halo]

You've got to respect Israel for the way they take unilateral action and how they play christendom against Islamic states.

 

Bull**** mate a great number of the palestinians under occupation by the israelis in places like Bethelehem and Nazareth are christian.

 

This is not a moslem Christian thing it is about occupation and one set of laws for one and a different set for the other.

[dune]

Ask yourself why British Palestine became a Zionist homeland in the first place?

 

Ask yourself why America entered WW2?

 

The answers are inextricably linked. America entered WW2 because their leaders were bribed with Jewish gold and the transfers from swiss banks have continued to this day. Who provided the zionists with weapons to fight the British when the war was finnished? The rich and powerful Jewish comunity control American politics.

[dune]

Bull**** mate a great number of the palestinians under occupation by the israelis in places like Bethelehem and Nazareth are christian.

 

This is not a moslem Christian thing it is about occupation and one set of laws for one and a different set for the other.

 

It's about Israel surviving when they have no justification for being there. There is no such thing as a Jewish race - that died out and dissipated at the time of the pharoahs. Judaism is a religion - nothing more, and as such their claim to Palestine is a fraud. However the point i'm making is that they should be respected for their cunning. They play east against west to the benefit of themselves.

[Saint Without a Halo]

It's about Israel surviving when they have no justification for being there. There is no such thing as a Jewish race - that died out and dissipated at the time of the pharoahs. Judaism is a religion - nothing more, and as such their claim to Palestine is a fraud. However the point i'm making is that they should be respected for their cunning. They play east against west to the benefit of themselves.

 

Sorry, if that is your point, I am in total agreement, I must admit the sarcasm in your original post wasn't initially obvious!

 

Israel always tries to line itself up with the Democratic West against their Autocratic neighbours. However it is often forgotten that they were quite prepared to act in the same unlawful and ruthless way to get their aims against the British in the late 40's after WW2. As the British army attempted to stop their takeover of the country by new zionist immigrants using a mixture of terror immigration (from europe and the US) and a little ethnic cleansing. The Zionists were armed with then modern weapons bought as usual with US donated money.

(A bit like the US Irish community funded the IRA in the 1970's)

 

 

They conducted a reign of terror to frighten out the original population (who were mainly simple farming people) and bombed such places likethe King Davids Hotel as well as kidnapping hanging and killing many British soldiers at the time! They also I believe assisinated the new United Nations representative as it bacame clear he was looking to implement a solution based on partition between the palestinians and the immigrant zionists whils they wanted the whole of what they call Eretz Israel (Biblical Greater Israel covering palestine the west bank of the jordan the Siniai and parts of Syria) involving nations representative.

 

These were the first acts of modern 19th century terrorism in this blighted land!

Edited 31 May, 2010 by Saint Without a Halo

[dune]

Sorry, if that is your point, I am in total agreement, I must admit the sarcasm in your original post wasn't initially obvious!

 

There was no sarcasm. Friend or foe, you've got to give credit where it's due and respect Israel for being very clever.

[1976_Child]

Hmmm agressive act towards a member of NATO..

 

I guess it will be swept under the carpet

 

Doesn't apply. The ship was sailing under the Turkish flag but was not a military vessel.

[1976_Child]

How the **** do they get away with it ? As someone else said earlier any other country did it there would be outrage. They cant keep playing the "Holocaust" card forever.

Israel is a "country" built by ethnic cleansing and terrorism.

I am no Islamic supporter but you can see why the Arabs are so angry at the West for propping up such an illegal state.

 

Exactly. My point too.

 

I am a stridently strong supporter of Israel, as are many of my friends. We are all dismayed at the way Israel is seemingly playing the 'US card' and the 'holocaust card' against the rest of the world. Also, when it comes to a slap-down from the EU, the most powerful/influential member - Germany - suddenly finds better things to do with its time...

[Saintandy666]

Israel really is one of the most dangerous countries in the world. This is just one example, and the way they used British and other nations passports to carry out an assassination is another.

[Saint_clark]

Doesn't apply. The ship was sailing under the Turkish flag but was not a military vessel.

 

Can't exactly be swept under the carpet anymore anyway, it's been all over the news in every single country and debated by politicians world wide.

[OldNick]

i know it is a pathetic gesture and pointless, but i have asked my wife not to buy any israli product when shopping. Basically it will only be fresh fruit and vegetables. If more people do the same , in its own way it may hurt Israel a bit as we cant hurt them politically.

[jeff leopard]

Israel really is one of the most dangerous countries in the world. This is just one example, and the way they used British and other nations passports to carry out an assassination is another.

 

They used the British passports in retaliation to us clearly labeling food products from the West Bank either ‘Israeli settlement produce’ or ‘Palestinian produce’, making a boycott against Israel so much easier. This is how the Israeli’s operate, commit appalling acts of violence and just sit back, knowing that the US will stop the UN from ever punishing Israel, whilst the UK is shown to be utterly gutless and powerless. Their arrogance really is disgusting.

 

i know it is a pathetic gesture and pointless, but i have asked my wife not to buy any israli product when shopping. Basically it will only be fresh fruit and vegetables. If more people do the same , in its own way it may hurt Israel a bit as we cant hurt them politically.

 

Not a pathetic gesture at all, it’s a consumer society, we have some influence and some muscle. We certainly can’t depend on politicians to do anything.

[Seaford Saint]

i know it is a pathetic gesture and pointless, but i have asked my wife not to buy any israli product when shopping. Basically it will only be fresh fruit and vegetables. If more people do the same , in its own way it may hurt Israel a bit as we cant hurt them politically.

 

Nick, I intend doing the same....

[OldNick]

Nick, I intend doing the same....

Good, perhaps the more clued up how to, out there should start a Facebook group suggesting a boycott of israeli goods. It is about time that the Palestinians etc saw that the majority (IMo) dont support israels policy in the Middle East

[thefunkygibbons]

There was a protest in Southampton high street yesterday

 

Cannot see what good it will do

 

Israel will only change its policy when it is in its own self interest to do

[dubai_phil]

The Israelis seem to be scoring more own goals than the Jap footie team at the moment.

 

600 Turks on a ship. Easy answer Viking, it was done to ensure that it provoked this reaction. In the same way that the assassination in Dubai can also be laid at the feet of people who did it to embarrass Mossad or the Government. Or not of course.

 

One thing that is always clear when it comes to those arrogant sods. Nothing is ever as it seems.

 

We had a visitor over from Rhode Island when I was in a Multi National. He spent 3 days here and was truly shocked when he read our newspapers - he suddenly understood how utterly biased the US media was. In his own words "He never had the chance to understand that there were two sides to the argument"

 

Meanwhile, it amazes me that they STILL don't understand how to solve the "Peace Process". It starts with Rule 1 - You can NEVER tell anyone from the Middle East what to do. The minute you tell (or order) them to do something they will do the opposite.

 

Sooooo

 

Just tell them NOT to have peace, tell them all to do the exact opposite of what you WANT them to do - case solved, Simples

[Dog]

How the **** do they get away with it ? As someone else said earlier any other country did it there would be outrage. They cant keep playing the "Holocaust" card forever.

Israel is a "country" built by ethnic cleansing and terrorism.

I am no Islamic supporter but you can see why the Arabs are so angry at the West for propping up such an illegal state.

 

:smt102

 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6a3_1275348204

[Saintandy666]

whilst the UK is shown to be utterly gutless and powerless

 

Mmmmmmm, it's sad really, but it's the way of the world when it is dominated by superpower/s. Nobody can do anything big without the support of one.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

 

Look at that, we spend the third most on milatary, just behind china, but look at the US's... it's pretty much bigger than everyone else combined...

Edited 1 June, 2010 by Saintandy666

[Barney Trubble]

Looking at the footage, I must be in the minority as it looks to me as if the so called aide people were the aggressors, I appreciate that what the Israelis did may have seemed provocative but they must have had sound reason? Was there anything on board that shouldn't have been?

 

I am not interested in the politics of it all so excuse me if I just see it at face value.

 

When the commandos boarded the ship, the aide crew should have just surrendered. It looks to me as if they were prepared for aggression and I am not surprised that the Israelis opened fire when their countrymen were being battered to death with iron bars. They did not open fire until their countrymen were trying to be bludgeoned to death by a bloodthirsty so called aide crew.

 

They are a bad as each other from what I've seen on the footage but the aide crew were far from innocent in all of this. Some of those pictures were quite disturbing and I would think that most humans would have reacted in a similar fashion if they had seen their friends/countrymen being beaten to death...it was do or die.....sink or swim, dog eat dog, fight or flight....however you want to put it, the Israelis were backed into a corner and shooting became a necessary evil.

 

I'm sure if the aide crew had of been able to take the guns off the Israelis then they would have used them, they were not peaceful at all, as the footage suggests, they were quite prepared to use force.

 

The whole situation stinks and there is more to this than meets the eye. Mind you, I was once told that the Israeli forces were one of the best in the world, on that footage, I tend to disagree, what a total balls up, it looked so amateur and lacking in preparation.

 

Let's hope the truth is outed in all of this as something just isn't right about it all.

[tombletomble]

i know it is a pathetic gesture and pointless, but i have asked my wife not to buy any israli product when shopping. Basically it will only be fresh fruit and vegetables. If more people do the same , in its own way it may hurt Israel a bit as we cant hurt them politically.

 

I've been doing this for years.

[Thedelldays]

They used the British passports in retaliation to us clearly labeling food products from the West Bank either ‘Israeli settlement produce’ or ‘Palestinian produce’, making a boycott against Israel so much easier. This is how the Israeli’s operate, commit appalling acts of violence and just sit back, knowing that the US will stop the UN from ever punishing Israel, whilst the UK is shown to be utterly gutless and powerless. Their arrogance really is disgusting.

 

 

 

Not a pathetic gesture at all, it’s a consumer society, we have some influence and some muscle. We certainly can’t depend on politicians to do anything.

 

 

so many want this in our country

[amsterdam]

 

Meanwhile, it amazes me that they STILL don't understand how to solve the "Peace Process". It starts with Rule 1 - You can NEVER tell anyone from the Middle East what to do. The minute you tell (or order) them to do something they will do the opposite.

 

Sooooo

 

Just tell them NOT to have peace, tell them all to do the exact opposite of what you WANT them to do - case solved, Simples

 

I know you say this in jest, DP, but the words "nail" and "head" spring to mind. Years ago I spent a few weeks working in Tel Aviv and came back convinced that these lovely Israeli people were the victims of their evil neighbours... Then I spent another couple of weeks in Beirut and came away thinking that the lovely Lebanese were the REAL victims.

 

I believe the problem is genuinely unsolvable; with the Irish situation I could understand (in very simplistic terms) that historically the Brits had taken the p*ss and b*ggered the country, so with devolution and a bit of give and take from both sides, then something could be worked out.. But with Israel and their neighbours I don't see how it can end, short of nuclear annihilation. It's a very scary situation...

[Dog]

I have no issue if they were carrying food etc

 

but 600 turks, what is that all about unless they were going to build new houses , roads etc.

 

So what are the views of the boat carrying 600 turks?

 

 

Was it a boat trip?

 

At the end of the day, they were only Turks. :smt072

[dubai_phil]

I know you say this in jest, DP, but the words "nail" and "head" spring to mind. Years ago I spent a few weeks working in Tel Aviv and came back convinced that these lovely Israeli people were the victims of their evil neighbours... Then I spent another couple of weeks in Beirut and came away thinking that the lovely Lebanese were the REAL victims.

 

I believe the problem is genuinely unsolvable; with the Irish situation I could understand (in very simplistic terms) that historically the Brits had taken the p*ss and b*ggered the country, so with devolution and a bit of give and take from both sides, then something could be worked out.. But with Israel and their neighbours I don't see how it can end, short of nuclear annihilation. It's a very scary situation...

 

 

Again, it is about a Cultural clash. Westerners walk into them all the time because they see things in the way they are "programmed to" (By that I mean their upbringing, education, values etc)

 

A simplistic example is that all of you are born with a ticking clock in your heads. Get qualified, get job, get wife, 2.4 kids, mortgage, save for pension, die. That clock drives every decision and approach you make to life.

 

Compare that simplistic view to one where "you don't die" the entire belief system crumbles away, the clock doesn't exist, your decisions and judgements are then brought into chaos. You are all supposed to be PC, but imagine a "no death" scenario, how does that compute? No death simply means "If I am good this is a stepping stone to something more and better" (extreme example ok)

 

So, go to a business meeting with an Arab - he'll likely not be there, time isn't important in the way it is to "the West". Honour & Integrity have different meanings, so when the Iranians say "We have no interest in building Nuclear Weapons" you know full well that what they mean is "We want to anhilate Israel and then everyone else and do things OUR way, no interest in Building Weapons our only interest is USING them".

 

Ain't no lie ain't disingenious is just how it is to them.

 

Now for all their failings the Israelis understand this as in many ways they think the same way, so the "Problem will not be solved until ONE of Islam, Christianity or the Jewish Faith "Win". Co-existence is useless, you will be assimilated.

 

World War 3 has been going on for years and until the nutters on all THREE sides are wiped out it will keep rumbling on. The religions CAN live in harmony, great examples are Syria and Egypt who have a whole host of secular legislation (Hell, even Iraq WAS secular under Saddam), just the leaders can't cope with people being content

[OldNick]

Phil should be wheeled out and given air time so the man in the street can see what is going on.Very interesting

[dubai_phil]

Phil should be wheeled out and given air time so the man in the street can see what is going on.Very interesting

 

Only wheeling out I'll ever accept is to a taxi from the Seaview

[Thedelldays]

israel are just doing it there way...maybe we are seeing the start of another war..?

Iran wont stand by and watch this happen much longer and will surely start to talk tough...not as if they are trying to build a nuclear weapon or anything..?

 

then at home, the tree huggers are sure we have no use for a credible armed force/nuclear deterent

[jeff leopard]

over the next couple of days, first person accounts from those on board the ships are going to start emerging and I believe they will all be along the same lines - the israeli's used grenades as they boarded the ship and then open fire seconds later. these aren't all hard-line political activists, but include very well respected member of european parilments and highly celebrated authors and journalists.

 

the "impartial" investigation from the Israeli's will of course say the exact opposite.

 

then at home, the tree huggers are sure we have no use for a credible armed force/nuclear deterent

 

serious questions for you - how have our nuclear weapons deterred Iran/North Korea from developing their own weapons? my answer would be, not one little bit.

 

do you honestly think the Iranian/North Korean leaders will be deterred from using them because we have trident? my thoughts, no. i doubt these people will lose any sleep if millions of their own citizens die in the retailiation.

 

the real reason for wanting to keep Trident? to be part of the nuclear 'boys club'. As many posters on here have illustrated time and time again, the British still haven't come to terms with being a small to middling power on the world stage, classic behavior in post-empirical nations. but hey, i hug trees and make out with badgers.