Why PR is not democratic

[Joensuu]

Ironically perhaps, I believe the conservatives only have 6 seats in the Scottish 'parliament' by virtue of the fact they have a pr system up there

 

I wonder whether the Scottish Conservative Party would like to introduce PR? It would certainly win them a fairer share of the avaliable seats in the Commons.

 

Seems to be that the only people opposed to introducing a fairer method of voting, are the beneficiaries of the existing biased system. Power corrupts.

[moonraker]

I wonder whether the Scottish Conservative Party would like to introduce PR? It would certainly win them a fairer share of the avaliable seats in the Commons.

 

And that is the nub of it, FPTP has been retained through a monstrous LAB / Tory conspiracy to ensure they take turns to govern based on a minority vote typically 35% - 38%, whilst consistently 35% - 40% of those who cast their vote rate do not vote for either. If any other form of democratic governance, Trade Unions, Local Clubs and Societies etc, were run on these lines there would be uproar.

 

If PR lets a few extremist, radical, single issue or marginal MPs in so what, they won’t form a government and in the case of BNP types it would mean that their vile policies and vile representatives would be exposed for what they are and they would not last more than one parliament.

[Wes Tender]

I wonder whether the Scottish Conservative Party would like to introduce PR? It would certainly win them a fairer share of the avaliable seats in the Commons.

 

And that is the nub of it, FPTP has been retained through a monstrous LAB / Tory conspiracy to ensure they take turns to govern based on a minority vote typically 35% - 38%, whilst consistently 35% - 40% of those who cast their vote rate do not vote for either. If any other form of democratic governance, Trade Unions, Local Clubs and Societies etc, were run on these lines there would be uproar.

 

If PR lets a few extremist, radical, single issue or marginal MPs in so what, they won’t form a government and in the case of BNP types it would mean that their vile policies and vile representatives would be exposed for what they are and they would not last more than one parliament.

 

But the officers of a club or society are most often run along the same lines as FPTP. You have elections for the chairman, the treasurer, the secretary, etc and in each case, there might be several candidates, but the one with the most votes is elected to that position. You don't then have nerds moaning that 60% of the members voted for other candidates other than the one selected.

[Wes Tender]

The irony here of course is that the Conservatives are the 'Unioist' one nation party and do not want any further movement on devoloution or indeeed indpendence, you cant have it both ways, either we are a single sovereign nation where all elected MP's count or we are not. That being said the SNP really p**s me off.

 

I couldn't agree more. Let's either dissolve the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh and NI Assemblies, or have an English Parliament where they have no representation.

[Gingeletiss]

I couldn't agree more. Let's either dissolve the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh and NI Assemblies, or have an English Parliament where they have no representation.

 

+1:finga:

[Gingeletiss]

If we had PR now...the first number is how many seats each party now holds, the second number is how many they would have got if we used PR.

 

Libs, UKIP and BNP would gain the most!

 

 

Conservative 306 -235

Labour 258 -189

Liberal Democrat 57 -150

Democratic Unionist Party 8 -4

Scottish National Party 6 -11

Sinn Fein 5 -4

Plaid Cymru 3 -4

Social Democratic & Labour Party 3 -3

Green 1 -7

Alliance Party 1 -1

UK Independence Party 0 -20

British National Party 0 -12

Ulster Conservatives and Unionists - New Force 0 -2

English Democrats 0 -1

Respect-Unity Coalition 0 -1

Traditional Unionist Voice 0 -1

Christian Party 0 -1

Independent Community and Health Concern 0 -1

Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition 0 -0

Scottish Socialist Party 0 -0

Others 1 -7

 

 

.....and this is what some of you want, God forbid!

[Saintandy666]

If we had PR now...the first number is how many seats each party now holds, the second number is how many they would have got if we used PR.

 

Libs, UKIP and BNP would gain the most!

 

 

Conservative 306 -235

Labour 258 -189

Liberal Democrat 57 -150

Democratic Unionist Party 8 -4

Scottish National Party 6 -11

Sinn Fein 5 -4

Plaid Cymru 3 -4

Social Democratic & Labour Party 3 -3

Green 1 -7

Alliance Party 1 -1

UK Independence Party 0 -20

British National Party 0 -12

Ulster Conservatives and Unionists - New Force 0 -2

English Democrats 0 -1

Respect-Unity Coalition 0 -1

Traditional Unionist Voice 0 -1

Christian Party 0 -1

Independent Community and Health Concern 0 -1

Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition 0 -0

Scottish Socialist Party 0 -0

Others 1 -7

 

 

.....and this is what some of you want, God forbid!

 

 

In a straight CPL system, smaller parties would probs get more as everyone in the country would have the opportunity to vote for them. Under, STV, it's basically proportional and you keep the constituency link which is good.

[Wes Tender]

If we had PR now...the first number is how many seats each party now holds, the second number is how many they would have got if we used PR.

 

Libs, UKIP and BNP would gain the most!

 

 

Conservative 306 -235

Labour 258 -189

Liberal Democrat 57 -150

Democratic Unionist Party 8 -4

Scottish National Party 6 -11

Sinn Fein 5 -4

Plaid Cymru 3 -4

Social Democratic & Labour Party 3 -3

Green 1 -7

Alliance Party 1 -1

UK Independence Party 0 -20

British National Party 0 -12

Ulster Conservatives and Unionists - New Force 0 -2

English Democrats 0 -1

Respect-Unity Coalition 0 -1

Traditional Unionist Voice 0 -1

Christian Party 0 -1

Independent Community and Health Concern 0 -1

Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition 0 -0

Scottish Socialist Party 0 -0

Others 1 -7

 

 

.....and this is what some of you want, God forbid!

 

So we would still have a hung Parliament, but the whole thing would be much more fragmented. Looks a bit like what they have in Italy and instead of stability and a government serving out a term and having time to bring policies to fruition, we'd have an election every other year like them. They often have the Commies holding the balance of power over there.

[norwaysaint]

If we had PR now...the first number is how many seats each party now holds, the second number is how many they would have got if we used PR.

 

Libs, UKIP and BNP would gain the most!

 

 

Conservative 306 -235

Labour 258 -189

Liberal Democrat 57 -150

Democratic Unionist Party 8 -4

Scottish National Party 6 -11

Sinn Fein 5 -4

Plaid Cymru 3 -4

Social Democratic & Labour Party 3 -3

Green 1 -7

Alliance Party 1 -1

UK Independence Party 0 -20

British National Party 0 -12

Ulster Conservatives and Unionists - New Force 0 -2

English Democrats 0 -1

Respect-Unity Coalition 0 -1

Traditional Unionist Voice 0 -1

Christian Party 0 -1

Independent Community and Health Concern 0 -1

Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition 0 -0

Scottish Socialist Party 0 -0

Others 1 -7

 

 

.....and this is what some of you want, God forbid!

 

Actually under our PR system and probably many others, most of those would get no seats at all. For example, in my county there are 14 seats. To get one of those you'd need to get about 7.5% of the votes in the county.

Most other counties are smaller and thus have fewer MPs and so they'd each need an even higher percentage of the vote.

I'm not sure how many areas BNP and UKIP managed so high a percentage, but I doubt either of them would get so many seats.

I know Griffin got about 14% but with PR those voters would be spread out over a much bigger area and the percentage would drop a lot.

[buctootim]

But the officers of a club or society are most often run along the same lines as FPTP. You have elections for the chairman, the treasurer, the secretary, etc and in each case, there might be several candidates, but the one with the most votes is elected to that position. You don't then have nerds moaning that 60% of the members voted for other candidates other than the one selected.

 

Thats because you dont have political parties in club elections. If we had 650 independents standing for parliament we wouldnt need PR.

[SuperMikey]

I don't like the AV or STV systems, would much prefer the straight PR system. The other systems are just overcomplicated and confusing.

[Wes Tender]

Thats because you dont have political parties in club elections. If we had 650 independents standing for parliament we wouldnt need PR.

 

Precisely. So rather a poor comparison by Moonraker to connect with the PR issue.

 

It is a great shame that party politics casts its shadow over our Parliamentary system, because having 650 independents who were elected by the local constituents because of their ability and the respect and trust that they had earned from their local community, would probably be better for the country and for democracy. But it will never come about because of the difficulties associated with how to select the candidates and the cost of the campaign would mean that those with more money individually, or with wealthy backing would have an advantage.

 

But I don't see why there has to be party politics at local level.

[Whitey Grandad]

Find a good local independent, the best advice I ever had.

[bridge too far]

......

 

But I don't see why there has to be party politics at local level.

 

I would like to think it's because, even at local level, the different basic tenets of the various parties apply to how they run local services.

 

Sadly, my experience of local politics leads me to think that a lot of local politicians are power-hungry non-entities. Not all of them - there are some good ones of all political hues.

[1976_Child]

notice how Labour had 13 years to realise they were in favour of PR.... conveniently just at the same time when they LOST the election?

[bridge too far]

notice how Labour had 13 years to realise they were in favour of PR.... conveniently just at the same time when they LOST the election?

 

They didn't. They said they weren't prepared to support it. They just said they WERE prepared to hold a referendum on it.

[1976_Child]

They didn't. They said they weren't prepared to support it. They just said they WERE prepared to hold a referendum on it.

 

boll0x! Back-bencher Brown was ready to support it as were all the other weasels surrounding him but they knew that a significant member of the PLP were dead-against PR so they could never have got the deal down.

[Gemmel]

They didn't. They said they weren't prepared to support it. They just said they WERE prepared to hold a referendum on it.

 

Is that like one of those Referendum promises ......errr like the Lisbon treaty

[bridge too far]

boll0x! Back-bencher Brown was ready to support it as were all the other weasels surrounding him but they knew that a significant member of the PLP were dead-against PR so they could never have got the deal down.

 

That's how a democratic party works

[Wes Tender]

Is that like one of those Referendum promises ......errr like the Lisbon treaty

 

HeHe. Yes. We will hold the referendum in the fullness of time, when conditions are right. One cannot rush these things. It is better to take things slowly, to weigh up all the pros and cons. Rome wasn't built in a day, you know. It is easy to plunge headlong into a referendum and if the decision is hasty, we will have to repent at our leisure, as it will be nigh on impossible to reverse our decision should we find that we have made the wrong choice, etc

[Whitey Grandad]

HeHe. Yes. We will hold the referendum in the fullness of time, when conditions are right. One cannot rush these things. It is better to take things slowly, to weigh up all the pros and cons. Rome wasn't built in a day, you know. It is easy to plunge headlong into a referendum and if the decision is hasty, we will have to repent at our leisure, as it will be nigh on impossible to reverse our decision should we find that we have made the wrong choice, etc

Very good. Have you done this sort of thing before? Have you ever thought of serving your fellow citizens?

[Wes Tender]

Very good. Have you done this sort of thing before? Have you ever thought of serving your fellow citizens?

 

No. I'm an avid fan of Yes Minister.

[Whitey Grandad]

No. I'm an avid fan of Yes Minister.

Whilst we must guard against complacency there is certainly no cause for alarm. Or was that something else?

[Wes Tender]

Whilst we must guard against complacency there is certainly no cause for alarm. Or was that something else?

 

This is one of my favourites...

 

The Times is read by the people who run the country. The Daily Mirror is read by the people who think they run the country. The Guardian is read by the people who think they ought to run the country. The Morning Star is read by the people who think the country ought to be run by another country. The Independent is read by people who don't know who runs the country but are sure they're doing it wrong. The Daily Mail is read by the wives of people who run the country. The Financial Times is read by the people who own the country. The Daily Express is read by the people who think the country ought to be run as it used to be run. The Daily Telegraph is read by the people who still think it is their country. And the Sun's readers don't care who runs the country providing she has big tits.

[Whitey Grandad]

No. I'm an avid fan of Yes Minister.

Thanks for reminding me. We've got all the dvds downstairs (apart from one in the Prime Miister set that I got from the US and has a duplicate). There's nothing on tele these days, and hardly any news...

[Gingeletiss]

They didn't. They said they weren't prepared to support it. They just said they WERE prepared to hold a referendum on it.

 

Eighteen years ago, they were all for it, desperate as they were to govern. When they got into power, they were against it (shock horror), now I suspect, they will champion it again.