Breaking News - Brown to resign, Labour entering negotiations with the Liberals

[Johnny Bognor]

So it would make all the difference to you JB had a candidate stood against GB and got walloped anyway (like John Redwood in 1995)? The reason nobody stood against Brown was because there was clear concensus in the Parliamentary Labour Party at the time. .

 

That's right, because during his very brief tenure there was not one single leadership challenge. Not one, zilch, zip.

 

And you clearly don't understand that we vote for parties in this country not leaders so your point is pretty irrelevant. Major won the right to be leader of the Tory Party, which was not voted for by the public. So his credentials are no better than Brown's if you want to pursue your pointless line of argument.

 

Actually, I vote for the party manifesto, rather than the party itself and if you look at the current situation (which is far more likely to be repeated under PR), the party/manifesto I voted for will not get implemented and will be watered down by horsetrading. If the future of politics is to have policies from either side diluted by consensus, this will make me less likely to vote.....for anyone, because what would be the point?

 

A fair vote would become a pointless vote.

[View From The Top]

That's cleary not the case these days. I think you probably need to get a grip with the reality of the world today.

 

Pray tell then, how are party leaders elected?

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Brown was not chosen, don't distort the facts. In order to have a choice, it means you have to have more than one option. Don't you ever wonder why out of 350+ MPs not one would stand? It's because it was a stitch up and to pretend otherwise is misleading.

 

That's like me having a 100m sprint in the car park and declaring myself the fastest person in the office.

 

As it was, Major didn't put himself forward in the first round of voting, and only entered the race when Mrs T didn't get enough votes and withdrew. He then had to beat Tarzan and Douglas Hurd. He had to compete for and subsequently won the right to be PM.

 

Brown was given the job, he was not chosen. Had he been chosen, he would have had more legitimacy (and possibly more support from his own MPs).

 

So what will happen if a Con/Lib pact narrowly fails? There will be another election, so will we see prominent Tories and Liberals, in seats like Eastleigh, facing opposition from the other (Tory or Lib) party?

 

From a friend who studies, as a hobby, politics.

 

"Mr Huhne is a bit of a political history anorak and in negotiating a

coalition might seek an agreement to safeguard his seat like the one

that lead to the 'coupon' election of 1918 - when following the

Lib/Con coalition of Lloyd george and Bonar-Law, both leaders jointly

wrote to thier constituency parties to endorse the same offical

'Coalition Candidate' to stand against Labour."

 

Thereby ensuring that each party's voters support the other candidate and effectively negate any other votes.

 

So, by your reckoning that will also be wrong?

Edited 11 May, 2010 by EastleighSoulBoy
Composition.

[Lord Duckhunter]

If the leaders dont matter, then why have leadership debates?

 

It seems the Labour party spent the whole election bigging up Brown and how HE saved the banks and how HE was the man to "protect the recovery", now it appears the leader doesn't matter. They cant have it both ways.

[View From The Top]

If the leaders dont matter, then why have leadership debates?

 

No one is saying that. What is being said is that we don't vote for the leader unless they happen to be your MP.

 

The parties can change leaders whenever they want without going to the country.

 

I'm not sure what's hard to grasp about it.

[dune]

John Reid speaks sense.

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

No one is saying that. What is being said is that we don't vote for the leader unless they happen to be your MP.

 

The parties can change leaders whenever they want without going to the country.

 

I'm not sure what's hard to grasp about it.

 

I think they'll pay a high electrol price if they give us another prime Minister who did go into the election as leader.

 

Tony Blair promised to serve a full time, whatever you say about leaders, that declaration would have made plenty of floating voters vote Labour, it also took away the Tory's line of Vote Blair, get Brown.

 

Now they're at it again. Whatever the Labour party say, the floating voters will think Brown has gone as part of a grubby deal with the Lib/Dems.The Leadership debates were important because they showed the Leaders under the spotlight and under pressure. To end up with another Prime Minister altogether, though consitutionaly right, is wrong IMHO.

[bridge too far]

As an aside - I was interested to see that 2,000 more people joined the Labour Party after Friday (and that was before GB announced his resignation).

[trousers]

As an aside - I was interested to see that 2,000 more people joined the Labour Party after Friday (and that was before GB announced his resignation).

 

That's cost Mandleson and Campbell a small fortune in stamps... ;-)

[TopGun]

That's cleary not the case these days. I think you probably need to get a grip with the reality of the world today.

 

 

The reality is as it is. You need to understand the difference between leaders and parties. It gets my goat that people can not comprehend how the system works and make ridiculous comments based on ignorance such as the one above.

[View From The Top]

I think they'll pay a high electrol price if they give us another prime Minister who did go into the election as leader.

 

Tony Blair promised to serve a full time, whatever you say about leaders, that declaration would have made plenty of floating voters vote Labour, it also took away the Tory's line of Vote Blair, get Brown.

 

Now they're at it again. Whatever the Labour party say, the floating voters will think Brown has gone as part of a grubby deal with the Lib/Dems.The Leadership debates were important because they showed the Leaders under the spotlight and under pressure. To end up with another Prime Minister altogether, though consitutionaly right, is wrong IMHO.

 

I'm not saying it's right but I fail to see why folk are getting all flappy about it as they're not going to be PM anyway as it would be electoral suicide for both Labour & the Liberals.

 

It will end up a Con/Lib coalition with Cable in No11 and a referendum on AV.

[dune]

It will end up a Con/Lib coalition with Cable in No11 and a referendum on AV.

 

I expect you to be wrong like you usually are.

[trousers]

It will end up a Con/Lib coalition with Cable in No11 and a referendum on AV.

 

Works for me

[Joensuu]

Is the right wing of the SWF compaining that the current electoral system isn't fair?

 

BTW, if nobody stood against Brown, it's not his fault that he won. In 2003, some football fans suggested that a south coast team got a relatively easy run to a cup final. The fans of said team responded by arguing they could only beat the team that stood before them. It was not the fault of the south coast team that the opposition was generally relatively weak. If nobody stood against Brown, then there was obviously nobody who thought that they stood a chance of beating Brown. That's not Brown's fault. Unfortunately/fortunately, it's the luck of the draw.

[bridge too far]

That's cost Mandleson and Campbell a small fortune in stamps... ;-)

 

Nice try love

 

It IS a modern party and it is possible to join on-line. Is that facility offered by the dinosaur Tory party?

[Joensuu]

Works for me

 

But tbf, you do seem to be a more progressive (moderate?) Tory (reading between the lines). The problem for a Con-Lib alliance is than c.50% of the Tories will think it's far too soft, and start to loath Cameron, while c.70% of the Liberals will be disgusted with the lack of real voting reform. Any Lib-Con government will fall within months.

 

(of course I can't see any rainbow government lasting long either. The best we can hope for is for the rapid introduction of real voting reform, and a new election by aultumn)

[dune]

Nice try love

 

It IS a modern party and it is possible to join on-line. Is that facility offered by the dinosaur Tory party?

 

It is offered by UKIP, but I have say I was disapointed with my membership card which was a cut out bit of paper with a flimsy laminated coating on each side.

[Johnny Bognor]

Is the right wing of the SWF compaining that the current electoral system isn't fair?

 

BTW, if nobody stood against Brown, it's not his fault that he won. In 2003, some football fans suggested that a south coast team got a relatively easy run to a cup final. The fans of said team responded by arguing they could only beat the team that stood before them. It was not the fault of the south coast team that the opposition was generally relatively weak. If nobody stood against Brown, then there was obviously nobody who thought that they stood a chance of beating Brown. That's not Brown's fault. Unfortunately/fortunately, it's the luck of the draw.

 

I agree with the FA Cup final run analogy and we did get an easy run - this line of argument was used to counter claims that Lowe got us to the cup final. You can only beat what is put in front of you and we got an easy run. However with the FA Cup, the minnows do want to take part and don't roll over for the favourites. Why did none of the 350+ MP's stand?

 

Was the quality of Labour MPs available so bad that Brown was the best option? Or was it a case of no-one dare stand, due to the consequences?

[Whitey Grandad]

You could add Alec Douglas-Home to the list of 'unelected' Tory PMs - it really is a fatuous argument, born of right-wing obsession.

And Callaghan?

[Whitey Grandad]

It will end up a Con/Lib coalition with Cable in No11 and a referendum on AV.

 

More likely to be Ken Clarke. Cable has some ridiculous proposals on stealing pensions, but only from the private sector, and a 'wealth' tax.

[View From The Top]

I expect you to be wrong like you usually are.

 

So how did the Labour core vote do? Did it flock to the tories as you predicted giving the tories a clear majority?

 

No, thought not.

 

Are the tories speaking to PC and SNP as you predicted?

 

No, thought not.

 

Did the tories wipe out the Liberals in the south west as voters made the hard choices on polling day, as you predicted?

 

No, thought not.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

It is offered by UKIP, but I have say I was disapointed with my membership card which was a cut out bit of paper with a flimsy laminated coating on each side.

 

Nowhere near as good as the BNP membership card?

[dune]

Are the tories speaking to PC and SNP as you predicted?

 

I said nothing of the sort. My view is that the Tories couldn't work with the nationalists.

 

Stop telling lies.

[View From The Top]

More likely to be Ken Clarke. Cable has some ridiculous proposals on stealing pensions, but only from the private sector, and a 'wealth' tax.

 

Possibly but as the tories have offered coalition they'll want seats at the top table and that means, realistically, either Clegg or Cable.

 

As "business" and The City rate Cable higher than Osbourne then it's a great get out clause for Cameron.

 

I still cannot fathom out why Osbourne and not Clarke had the shadow brief. Crazy decision.

[TopGun]

More likely to be Ken Clarke. Cable has some ridiculous proposals on stealing pensions, but only from the private sector, and a 'wealth' tax.

 

Right wing will not wear Clarke due to his pro-Europe stance.

[dune]

Nowhere near as good as the BNP membership card?

 

I wouldn't know.

[View From The Top]

I said nothing of the sort. My view is that the Tories couldn't work with the nationalists.

 

Stop telling lies.

 

Of course you did Stanley. Bungle even pointed out to you, as did others, the left wing bent of PC but you were quite sure it could happen. Just like you were sure that the Labour core vote was going to shift straight over to the tories and just like you were sure that because of this collapse of the Labour vote Soton was going to go blue.

 

You change your mind so often you've forgotten the stance you've previously taken.

[View From The Top]

Nowhere near as good as the BNP membership card?

 

I'm betting his NF one has a Union flag on it and Stanley has felt tipped a swastika on it.

[dune]

Of course you did Stanley. Bungle even pointed out to you, as did others, the left wing bent of PC but you were quite sure it could happen. Just like you were sure that the Labour core vote was going to shift straight over to the tories and just like you were sure that because of this collapse of the Labour vote Soton was going to go blue.

 

You change your mind so often you've forgotten the stance you've previously taken.

 

You are a liar VFTT. I suggest you either back up your claim or apologise.

[View From The Top]

You are a liar VFTT. I suggest you either back up your claim or apologise.

 

It's all very true Stanley as you well know.

 

Just because you can't remember which stance you had on which day doesn't mean we can't.

[dune]

And how did you vote VFTT? You were going to vote Liberal and then you said you had changed your mind and you were going to vote Green.

[dune]

It's all very true Stanley as you well know.

 

Just because you can't remember which stance you had on which day doesn't mean we can't.

 

Prove it then gobby.

[View From The Top]

And how did you vote VFTT? You were going to vote Liberal and then you said you had changed your mind and you were going to vote Green.

 

When I walked into the booth I put my cross against...............................

[bridge too far]

It's all very true Stanley as you well know.

 

Just because you can't remember which stance you had on which day doesn't mean we can't.

 

Cut him some slack VFTT - this is the guy who made a scurrilous accusation about me and it took loads of posts before he finally apologised

[dune]

Cut him some slack VFTT - this is the guy who made a scurrilous accusation about me and it took loads of posts before he finally apologised

 

I did apologise though. VFTT hasn't got the honour or the integrity to do that.

[View From The Top]

Prove it then gobby.

 

I don't need to prove anything Stanley. We all read it and we all know that you said the following:

 

• Tories will work with PC if needed
  
• Labour core vote would move straight to the tories
  
• Collapse of core vote would mean Soton going blue
  
• Collapse of the core Labour vote would mean a tory majority
  

You change your mind so often you've forgotten what you've previously said.

[trousers]

 

Cut him some slack VFTT - this is the guy who made a scurrilous accusation about me and it took loads of posts before he finally apologised

Did he visit your house to apologise in person for 45 mins?

[View From The Top]

Cut him some slack VFTT - this is the guy who made a scurrilous accusation about me and it took loads of posts before he finally apologised

 

He's so thick he can't remember what he's previously said.

[View From The Top]

I did apologise though. VFTT hasn't got the honour or the integrity to do that.

 

One doesn't apologise when one is correct, which I am.

 

Do try to keep up with your change of minds Stanley.

[dune]

I don't need to prove anything.

 

You can't prove it. Because you are a liar.

[View From The Top]

Did he visit your house to apologise in person for 45 mins?

 

 

:biggrin::biggrin: Very good.

[View From The Top]

You can't prove it. Because you are a liar.

 

Of course I am Stanley, of course I am. You never said those things, nope, not one of them, no sirreeeee.

 

Of course, you're not Stanley either are you Stanley.

[dune]

One doesn't apologise when one is correct, which I am.

 

Do try to keep up with your change of minds Stanley.

 

Says the person who supported the Liberals at the start of the election and then announced he was going to vote Green.

 

So not only do you tell lies but you are a hypocrite as well.

[View From The Top]

Says the person who supported the Liberals at the start of the election and then announced he was going to vote Green.

 

So not only do you tell lies but you are a hypocrite as well.

 

Really? How lovely.

[Whitey Grandad]

Right wing will not wear Clarke due to his pro-Europe stance.

They might have to.

[Whitey Grandad]

Possibly but as the tories have offered coalition they'll want seats at the top table and that means, realistically, either Clegg or Cable.

 

As "business" and The City rate Cable higher than Osbourne then it's a great get out clause for Cameron.

 

I still cannot fathom out why Osbourne and not Clarke had the shadow brief. Crazy decision.

Osbourne is a problem but chancellor might be too much for Cable who could get Business Secretary. There would have to be something for Clegg, any ideas?

[badgerx16]

It's like supervising a playground spat - presumably this is what VFTT is going on about ?

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=706923&postcount=9

[Whitey Grandad]

I thin that VFTT and Dune are a perfect example of why PR could never achieve anything.

[View From The Top]

They might have to.

 

 

Everyone seems to be on the horns of a dilemma here.

 

Clarke would be welcome by many except those on the right of his own party, Cable is clearly more able than Osbourne and somehow a deal needs to be struck.

 

A right mess.

[View From The Top]

Osbourne is a problem but chancellor might be too much for Cable who could get Business Secretary. There would have to be something for Clegg, any ideas?

 

Home Office with Cable taking a lesser brief at Business?